People who are against illegal immigrants just wish they would go away.
So today…they went away.
Ariel was impressed by how much less crowded her school bus was, how it was easier to get around in the hallways, and how there weren’t kids hanging out on the front lawn of the school smoking, fighting or getting into trouble.
So this proved…what, exactly?
PAD
• 
Did you hear the one about they legalized ‘small amounts’ of heroin, marijuana, cocain, lsd and several others in Mexico?.. No really they did.
What it proved is that if they put as much energy into cleaning up their own country, they’d have no reason to illegally come here.
I’m a liberal but on this subject I go the other way from the Dems who are pandering to their illegal votes. Deport them back over the border. There are legal ways to enter the country!
Yes. Because the random illegal immigrant is personally responsible for the lack of energy in cleaning up his or her country, and thus needs to face the consequences.
A draconian immigration policy punishes the people for the failings of the government.
So today…they went away.
Yeah, but they’re still here. They’re not back across the border where they belong, where they should so they can get in line like everybody else.
So this proved…what, exactly?
Not a lot, really.
This isn’t an issue I consider ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative’ (which goes back to my post in the other thread), because both sides of Congress are just trying to play it to their advantage.
Meanwhile, the people organizing these protests have no care whatsoever for our legal system, because they want amnesty for +10 million people who have already broken the law.
And yeah, Brian Peter, I saw the article about that. Freaking insane stuff. Pot I can understand, but I don’t think their logic regarding heroin and the others really flies, that they want to bust the sellers, not the people using it for personal use. Some of that stuff is just awful, regardless of the amount, and NOBODY should have it.
I’m not quite sure why people were pulling their kids out of school- I’m assuming it was a gesture to demonstrate solidarity. But the boycott itself (not showing for work, and not buying anything) was to demonstrate the economic force that immigrants are (particularly in California). The main argument against illegal aliens is that they are an economic burden. Today’s action was a demonstration of the contrary. Judging from the reports, it looks like there was, in fact, a huge economic impact.
As far as the kids fighting, smoking, and getting into trouble- that’s what poor kids do. Where I’m from its mostly black kids that are causing the problems you described- and they are all legal. As long as poverty is around, the animal behavior associated with it will be around- kicking aliens out of the country, or putting them behind bars, only makes room for new poor people to start causing problems.
Methinks they lent credence to a point completely contrary to the one they were trying to make.
-Rex Hondo-
A draconian immigration policy punishes the people for the failings of the government.
What, exactly, is so draconian about requiring people to get into this country legally? Or enforcing the laws we already have?
It sounds pretty dámņ reasonable to me.
Personally, I’m not against deporting many of our politicians while we’re at it for failing to act sooner.
Yep. The exact same thing happened at my school.
These are some of my favorite kids but it was really great having a day where I didn’t feel like I was in the middle of a riot when the bell rings.
Hey, if the black or caucasion kids want to protest next Monday they have my blessing.
The main argument against illegal aliens is that they are an economic burden.
They are, but also not in ways that would be visible by today’s protests.
Where we’re really getting nailed by the ever-growing problem with illegals, imo, is in the schools and hospitals, many of which struggle in areas where illegal immigration isn’t a problem.
Not enough teachers, not enough doctors, and somebody has to foot the bill when large groups of people (like illegals) are not.
What it proved is that if they put as much energy into cleaning up their own country, they’d have no reason to illegally come here.
I’m not really picking sides on the issue, but you might have a point. They’ve proven that they can get organized when they are passionate about something, so what’s stopping them from taking that energy and transforming their own country for the better?
On the other hand, if things are so bad down there that people are fleeing the country… shouldn’t somebody, you know… help them?
I know what we should do. We should invade Mexico. For lebensraum.
>Because the random illegal immigrant is personally responsible for the lack of energy in cleaning up his or her country
I don’t call 10 million random or small! In fact revolutions have been won by fewer. 10 million people putting that much energy into cleaning up the Mexican system, could, no not could would do something to improve their own country. Instead they try to prove to us what a disaster it would be for them to return to their legal country. Well except for causing some traffic jams, everything around here went along just fine.
In fact my favorite restaurant who I have suspected of hiring illegal buss boys was flowing along smoother than ever tonight. No buss boys and the waitresses actually got their tables cleaned off in a timely manner and there wasn’t nearly the wait there usually is. When the bussboys are standing in the corner talking spanish and ignoring the dirty tables.
I’m expected to live by the laws of this country so should anyone who wants to enter it from the outside. The whole lot who did not show for their jobs should be fired. I would be, but I have a feeling tomorrow will be business as usual because the companies won’t want to be labeled as racist against law breakers.
>>shouldn’t somebody, you know… help them?
Sure in their own country! I have no problem sending aid into Mexico to try and turn around their own coutry, if it actually goes for that. But don’t send your citizens into our country to alieve your problems.
But what drives me nuts is who created their mess? It sure wasn’t us, it was themselves. 10 million people can put a stop to the corruption. 10 million can kick the trouble makers out of the government. They allowed the disaster to be created and while their government sits and fiddles looking for ways to get rid of more citizens, instead of looking for ways to fix their own problems, they come here and put more energy into whineing about why they should be allowed to stay here while they could put that energy into their own country.
It’s like a child who’s trashed his room and is old enough to know better walking into mommy and daddy’s bedroom demanding they allow him to sleep in their bed. My parents would grab my ear and drag me back to my room and tell me to clean up my own mess. And if I didn’t clean, I just had to sleep in the mess, but they’d lend a hand if I actually started doing the work.
>We should invade Mexico.
hmm, don’t give shrub any ideas.
But what drives me nuts is who created their mess? It sure wasn’t us, it was themselves. 10 million people can put a stop to the corruption. 10 million can kick the trouble makers out of the government.
And that works so well here in the US….
There are two things that are amusing me about today:
1) The assumption, so widespread both around these here parts and around this thread, that all of the illegals are from Mexico. In point of fact, a sizeable fraction of them are from point south – Guatemala, Peru, El Salvador… Many of them were fleeing to Mexico in the first place, because even Mexico is better than were they started off, and ran to the US to flee the Mexican government’s draconian border-control measures. Deporting them to Mexico would solve nothing in Mexico…
2) The point of the Day Without an Immigrant was supposed to be to let us see what our lives would be like without Hispanic immigrants, right? So how do those big-ášš rallies in LA and SanFran factor in? I mean, if y’all weren’t here, you wouldn’t be holding huge rallies and blocking traffic, would you??
I think immigrant workers are critical for maintaining a flexible economy. The issue of jobs is overblown, the only real issue should be security.
The Daily Show already made this point today, except it was funnier.
Heh. You should refer to this whenever someone nominates you for unreasonable leftist of the year.
>On the other hand, if things are so bad down there that people are fleeing the country… shouldn’t somebody, you know… help them?
Except many aren’t “fleeing” Mexico. They are going somewhere where they feel they might be able to provide a better income for their family. You don’t see many professionals ‘fleeing’ Mexico, for example. They are quite happy where they are.
Some of you guys don;t get it. Unfortunately, it’s hard to be for some sort of immigration reform without looking over your shoulder and seeing some anti-spanish nut who goes crazy because there’s a second or even third language offered on their ATM machine. It’s an issue that needs to be addressed because we need to encourage Mexico to improve as a govt (things are not good down there) and as an economy, because for better or for worse they are our neighbor and you don’t want to live next door to a crack house, for example.
At the same time, I wonder about the argument that illegals run people out of jobs that would otherwise have to to americans at higher pay. It seems to me that many people who, for example, have their garden redone by an illegal, simply wouldn’t get it done at all if they had to pay for an american to do it. So really, it’s not money out of an american’s pocket at all.
And frankly, I’m kind of shocked that people get into such an uproar about mexicans working on a roof, and don’t seem to care that their clothes are made by underpaid and underfed children (immigrants who just happen to still be over in another country). The question then is, are you willing to pay another 5-10 per article of clothing to have it made in the US or at least by foreigners being paid a decent wage. Now go try and find those clothes.
Oh and Brianpeter, should we have just told the italians and the irish that they should go fix THEIR country and sent them back? People wanted to, I’m sure. Funny how we can always identify wrong thinking in the past, but can’t see it in the now.
The issue of immigration is a complicated one. Both sides present legitimate claims. There are similar problems in Europe and Australia.
Immigrants are poor people who are willing to work hard in societies that need hard workers. Most of them have no ill will. They are not against the culture of the host country, but they take pride in their own culture.
On the other hand western countries are reasonably not very enthusiastic about importing the poverty of other countries, and although they respect the cultures of other countries, they also want to maintain their own culture in their own country. In tthe past immigrants were more likely to assimilate. It seems that now the process is not working as well, although Americans should not discount the ability of their country to assimilate masses. They have done so in the past.
The Europeans are very concerned because many of their immigrants are Muslim, but on the other hand they need workers, and their own population growth is negative. Maybe they should encourage immigration of Mexicans?
Maybe another solution is to make illegal immigration less profitable by punishing harshly the smugglers and employers instead of the immigrants themselves?
I wonder if the founding fathers woke up today they would find America too Irish or too Catholic?
It seems that America as an immigration state presupposes a stage of immigration involving poverty, crime and isolation, followed by assimilation + multiculturalism. It has worked so far. But is it working now? Is it because more welfare demands ar made on the state? an absence of open country? That the process of assimilation doesn’t work as well as it idid in the past? Modern communication, multiculturalism the shared hispanic culture. and the geographic proximity puts less pressure on hispanics to assimilate than it did on previous waves of immigrants. But still, it seems that a lot of hispanics do assimilate quite well. Is there a threshold in which a country no longer can assimilate? Maybe the Us should encourage immigrants from non-hispanic countries in order to make a more heterogenuous mix?
There is a risk in deporting masses of immigrants. It just makes it easier for employers and smugglers to make money importing a new more desperate batch.
Guest workers has risks too. Germany has second and third generation Turkish guest workers, very assimilated in German society, who still don’t have citizenship.
I can see that this is an issue that elicits a lot of strong feelings. I also realize I am about to stick my head into the lion’s mouth. Nevertheless, here goes…
Folks, any of you here who think you could easily organize 10 million people to do something as a collective, go to it. C’mon. I’m serious. There are problems in this country that need to be solved.
Any takers?
Didn’t think so.
It’s easy to criticize. But, when you talk about getting something done, somehow the crowd always seems to thin out.
Oh, and Mexico may ostensibly be a democracy, but their government makes ours look squeaky clean. I think organizing the masses over there would be even harder than it would be over here.
And, y’know, if I were a poor Mexican with a family to feed, and I was faced with a choice between breaking U.S. law for a chance at a better life, or staying put, well, I’d be sorely tempted to do the former. I’m not saying I condone it, okay? I’m just saying it’s not hard to imagine what I’d do in someone else’s shoes.
Oh, and regarding the security issue: the 9/11 hijackers entered this country legally. I believe some of them had expired visas at the time they carried out the attacks, but they were legal when they got here. Tighter border controls wouldn’t have stopped those bášŧárdš. Better cooperation between the various law-enforcement and intelligence gathering operations, on the other hand, might well have done the trick.
Also, I’m not sure all of the immigrants that have come here from Europe were legal. I know someone who swears his grandfather was an illegal immigrant from Czechoslavakia.
Oh, and colonists that founded this country didn’t bother with the proper paperwork, nor do I think they respected the rights and traditions of the people who were already here. What goes around comes around, y’know?
That said, the U.S. exists and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. There’s no practical way for us to dismantle ourselves and give the nation back to the native peoples. And a nation this size has an obligation to itself and to the rest of the world to run itself wisely.
And illegal immigration is a problem, no doubt. It places an undue burden on our society, and it leaves the illegals vulnerable to exploitation that citizenship might protect them against.
I think the real solution is to step up pressure on the Mexican government to clean up its own act. That’s something that would take a long time, no doubt, and the success is by no means guaranteed. But I think it’s the only viable solution in the long term. Because, y’know, I don’t like the idea of a national I.D. card — can you say “Orwellian?” — and I don’t think a big wall with death-ray-beams aimed at would-be illegal immigrants is all that practical.
1) Illegal immigrants are here illegally. Laws have been broken. Laws need to be enforced.
2) We need to accept more legal immigration. We are too restrictive for a nation founded on immigrants.
3) This English-Only crap is that – crap. For the record, the French government commissioned an English translation of their national anthem. You can look it up.
4) Dems who are pandering to their illegal votes
Wait a minute. Since when have the illegals started to vote? I believed citizenship was a requirement…
Interesting that this is an issue that seems to cut across the usual Democrat/Republican divide.
A third party candidate who presented a tough but fair approach to the problem could potentially throw the election into doubt. You’d think that it would cost the Republicans more votes but I’m a bit surprised at how many Democrats have told me they are angry about this.
Mexico has zero, ZERO, reason to do a dámņ thing about it. They have it pretty sweet; they get rid of potential problems by exporting their poor and these people (who work like Trojans) semd lots of the money they make back to Mexico. Some have suggested that Mexico could not stay afloat without this income (and we have to be careful that shutting it off doesn’t just increase the poverty which would lead to more desperation and more illegal immigration).
One thing does stick in my craw–the Mexican government treats illegal immigrants in that country in a way that only Pat Buchanan would think appropriate for us, yet they have not been shy in telling us how to deal with their citizens who have entered here illegally.
I personally find it infuriating that almost everyone is referring to the anti-immigration-policy protests as being attended solely by illegal immigrants.
Posted by Bill Mulligan at May 2, 2006 09:12 AM
Mexico has zero, ZERO, reason to do a dámņ thing about it.
But we could give them some reasons. I mean, they depend on aid from and trade with us. Could we possibly pull the entire rug out from underneath them? Hëll, no. But we could certainly start making some of the aid we give to them contingent upon certain concessions from them. President Clinton was actually quite brilliant at dangling a carrot in front of corrupt regimes and then, when they got to salivating over it, telling them, “Fine. Y’want this? Do this in return.”
I think it would take time, and we’d have to be satisfied with small incremental steps for awhile. But nothing worthwhile comes with out patience or hard work.
The other thing that bothers me about this issue is that I think it’s something W. and his cronies are using as a smokescreen behind which to hide from their current problems. I mean, if we really did get a handle on illegal immigration, and the price of produce went way up because American workers have to be paid higher wages to pick the stuff, I guarantee you’d be hearing everyone howling about that, too.
dantheman –
Oh and Brianpeter, should we have just told the italians and the irish that they should go fix THEIR country and sent them back?
I’m not Brianpeter, but if there were several million illegal Irish and several million illegal Italians in the country, I’d be more than happy to.
But we’re dealing with several million illegal Mexicans and a Swiss cheese border that nobody wants to fix.
Yeah, the 9/11 attackers were here legally, but it’s pretty naive to think that, should the next 9/11-wannabes fail to get here legally, they won’t then try other methods. And right now, the easiest is crossing over from Mexico.
I also think it’s pretty ridiculous that Mexico can sit there and say “here, they’re your problem now”, and we’re supposed to accept it.
Micha –
Immigrants are poor people who are willing to work hard in societies that need hard workers.
Maybe you should rephrase that, preferrably with some sort of qualifier to show that you’re not working under the assumption that all immigrants are poor, because they’re not.
Micha –
It just makes it easier for employers and smugglers to make money importing a new more desperate batch.
No, having ignored the problem for years and years is what has made it easier for employers and smugglers.
Some US companies are outright opening recruiting illegals in Mexico. And then the Mexican government encourages it.
John –
This English-Only crap is that – crap.
No, it isn’t crap, because nobody is saying “English only”.
They’re saying “English should be primary”.
Every country needs a language to use as common ground. It always has been English in this country, and making English the official language will help guarantee it remains that way.
If you’re coming here and don’t want to learn English, then you really don’t belong here, because none of us are going to the home countries of these immigrants, illegal or otherwise, with the notion that we won’t bother to learn the local language if we expect to live and work there.
Bill Myers –
Also, I’m not sure all of the immigrants that have come here from Europe were legal.
See above.
Bill Myers –
What goes around comes around, y’know?
Well, that’s a non-starter if I ever heard one.
Just because we’ve had serious fûçkûpš in our nation’s past doesn’t make it right for others to do the same now.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
John –
For the record, the French government commissioned an English translation of their national anthem.
And there are plenty of good reasons why this is America, not France.
I suppose the difference here is that the French government actually, as you say, commissioned it.
Nobody commissioned this Spanish-language version of our national anthem. Hëll, it was done by a Brit, and while I like Brits, I question whether this guy has any respect for us in the first place.
The fact that it’s called “Our Anthem” is even more ridiculous, because I sure as hëll don’t approve of it.
Of course, the French are starting to get pissy that theirs is not the language of the world that it used to be. I’m surprised that the Olympics still uses French, in fact, when other, more prevalent languages (such as Chinese or Spanish) would probably work just the same.
Elayne Riggs –
I personally find it infuriating that almost everyone is referring to the anti-immigration-policy protests as being attended solely by illegal immigrants.
Well, I haven’t intentionally worded it that way – I know that there were people who aren’t illegals that were at the protests, or even immigrants at all.
But these protests aren’t being organized for the sake of the handfuls of illegals coming from places other than North/Central America, nor is it for the immigrants that are here legally.
It’s all about demanding rights that haven’t been earned for the vast majority of the illegals: those from Mexico.
So, it infuriates me to no end that anybody who supports these protests think that the US government, and by extension us, the people, owe illegals ANYTHING when they couldn’t be bothered to follow our laws to begin with.
“This English-Only crap is that – crap. For the record, the French government commissioned an English translation of their national anthem. You can look it up.
This is taking things way out of context. I don’t know about this specific case, but (a) the French do not exactly have a large English speaking minority nor English speaking immigrants; (b) the french are much less multicultural than Americans, and take the hegemony of French language and culture very seriously. If you want to give somebody French a heartattack suggest making learning Arabic mandatory in schools. Look what they did about Muslim headscarfs.
I really don’t understand what’s the big deal with the national ID card. I have one.
I usually stay far, far away from immigration issues because, well, I am against illegal immigration. I also thought that the whole boycott idea was stupid, for what is worth.
Oh, btw, I’m Mexican.
The thing is, we’ve tried to change our goverment. But as someone said, organizing 10 million people to do something (And I believe that just our capital city has around that many people living on it) is not easy. We’ve got marchs and riots as often as three times a week, and the most they manage to do is… block traffic. We do not want a violent uprising because the last time we did that we ended up with a corrupt goverment that lasted more than 70 years AND a period of history so confusing that most schools preffer to gloss over it as fast as they can. Elections are coming next July. Our candidates? A man from said corrupt goverment whose only clear campaing is ‘the other guys suck’, a man from the current ruling party (Our Republicans, to simplify things) whose campaing is ‘the other guys suck’, a woman who everybody knows won’t win because her campaing basically is ‘men suck, I’m a woman’, and… the guy who everyone else says he sucks (And whose campaing can be summarized in ‘they say I suck, therefore I don’t’). Oh, and the owner of a pharmacy chain. I am not kidding.
Our immigrant policy is complicated, I won’t deny that. But entering legaly is fairly easy. Most countries do not need a special visa issued, and most Mexicans are amazingly friendly with turists and legal immigrants alike (notice I said most. Unfortunately, since the Bush administration began, the anti-usa feelings can get a little too much). And in the same way that one shouldn’t judge all american citizens on basis of what the goverment does, our laws might be harsh with illegal immigrants, but just last week a group of citizens (mexican, legal citizens) defended a group of illegal immigrants from the police during a raid. The whole thing ended in blood, but I think it shows that the people is not exactly against immigrants.
Getting legally to the USA is a nightmare. I know because as press, I have to go every year to renew my visa, pay 100 dlls, and pray that the consul is in a good mood, bringing all the paperwork I can think off, from my birth certificate and my passport to whatever they think of asking. I’ve seen people being asked for the rent contract of their houses. All that doesn’t guarantee a visa. And the 100 dlls are not returned if you don’t get one. You just have to do it all over again (And I have it easy, even if it’s a yearly thing. Turist visas require even more paperwork, and let’s not talk about work or student visas). Being there as a turist is not exactly pleasant either. I’ve had luck, and the times I’ve been up there everyone has been nice to me. But I’ve also seen friends being denied services, even when they are legally in the country, only because they hear us speaking spanish, and I’ve read enough anti-Mexican rants to understand why some of my colleagues hate the mere idea of getting into a plane and passing through the USA.
Oh, and the drug thing? Most people I know are wondering what the hëll is that too. Legalizing drugs is idiotic, no matter how one wants to spin it.
Posted by: Craig J. Ries at May 2, 2006 09:37 AM
Well, that’s a non-starter if I ever heard one.
Just because we’ve had serious fûçkûpš in our nation’s past doesn’t make it right for others to do the same now.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Never said that it was, Craig. That passage in my post was meant to be taken in the context of the entire post, where I acknowledged that regardless of our past sins, it’s impossible for us to dismantle ourselves and give ourselves back to the native peoples. And I also acknowledged that illegal immigration is a problem we’re going to have to solve. You and I may have different ideas about how to solve it, but I think we can agree that it can’t be allowed to go unchecked.
My point was, and still is, that it’s a bit unseemly for people like us who enjoy a level of prosperity that is partly founded in taking land — often by force — from other people to be moralizing about illegal immigrants. It’s a bit like a family made wealthy from grandpa’s jewel-thievery complaining that someone broke into their house.
Let’s address the problem of illegal immigration, by all means. But let’s do it without the indignation that rings so hollow in light of our history, please.
That said, I agree that it’s sickening that the Mexican government has had the temerity to complain about our treatment of illegal immigrants from their country. If the Mexican politicos had their act together, we wouldn’t have this problem.
“Maybe you should rephrase that, preferrably with some sort of qualifier to show that you’re not working under the assumption that all immigrants are poor, because they’re not.”
I was refering to a global phenomenon: people from third world countries emigratingto first world countries. This is happening all over the world.
“No, having ignored the problem for years and years is what has made it easier for employers and smugglers.
Some US companies are outright opening recruiting illegals in Mexico. And then the Mexican government encourages it.”
In Israel there are legal and illegal immigrants from China, Africa, the Phillipines, Thailand and Eastern Europe (as well as Palestinians which is a different story). They are treated badly, often in a criminal way, and if they complain their employers hand them to the immigration authorities. Throwing them out then creates more demand which the companies that brought them in are happy to oblige. In this way they get cheap labor + profit from smuggling. The question of immigration should not be treated as a law-enforcement issue but as a global social phenomenon.
Posted by: Adalisa at May 2, 2006 09:50 AM
I usually stay far, far away from immigration issues…
Well, I’m glad you chose to go near the issues today. Your post was well-articulated and very enlightening. When emotions get whipped up, it’s easy to tar “the other guys” with a broad brush. But Mexico is a large country with lots of people who exist as individuals, not as a monolithic group. And the U.S. news media isn’t great about covering international stories, so even though we share a border, many of us don’t understand Mexico as well as we should. Thanks for helping to bridge that gap and allow me to understand Mexico a little better.
Micha –
I really don’t understand what’s the big deal with the national ID card. I have one.
You are Israeli iirc, yes?
You guys have districts, but they’re not really the same as our states set up, from what I can see.
Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised to see that we’re really unique in that regard, where each of our states does it’s own identification & licensing, instead of on the federal level.
And because this sort of thing has always rested with the states, there’s alot of resistance to it on the federal level.
Bill Myers –
My point was, and still is, that it’s a bit unseemly for people like us who enjoy a level of prosperity that is partly founded in taking land — often by force — from other people to be moralizing about illegal immigrants.
Bill, the problem I still find with this argument is that you’re expecting me to, more or less, pay for the sins of our forefathers.
I don’t agree with that.
I wasn’t alive 150-200 years ago, so while I sympathize with Native Americans as well as African-Americans and what happened to them, that wasn’t my fault, I had nothing to do with it, and so I fail to see this as ‘moralizing’ it, as you termed it.
That all said, I’ve said for years that I consider the illegal immigration problem as a “passive invasion”, and now there are more comments coming out from some quarters from folks who support illegals and are calling for the “reconquering” of the southwest, even though after Mexico got those land from Spain, few Mexicans actually lived here before the US took it following the US-Mexican War.
I’d like to know how many posters are Native North Americans. How many of your families actually originated in North America? How many of the vast majority whose forefathers are not Native Americans (injuns) know if those same forefathers entered America with a Visa?
Also, if your ancestry is Italian, do you agree that all Italian-Americans should be deported because without Italian-Americans there would be no mafia? And without any Russian-Americans there would be no Russian mobsters. Should all Russian immigrants and descendants be deported?
Just because some Latino immigrants behave inappropriately is no reason to deport an entire segment of American society.
There is a valid and just argument against every anti-immigration opinion. The bottom line is “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” If America was a dangerous, poverty-ridden country with an astronomical unemployment rate, many Americans would go elsewhere to look for work. Wouldn’t you want other countries to allow you to go there to work?
They are treated badly, often in a criminal way, and if they complain their employers hand them to the immigration authorities. Throwing them out then creates more demand which the companies that brought them in are happy to oblige. In this way they get cheap labor + profit from smuggling.
Which is pretty much the same way that a lot of US companies treat illegal immigrants here.
Oddly enough, I didn’t notice much difference yesterday. Traffic around my town was actually heavier, in fact. I guess I didn’t frequent the right businesses.
Craig, there was one terrorist caught sneaking a weapon into the US, back in ’02. He crossed into our territory at Blaine, WA, from Canada. Shall we build a heavily-armed wall there, too, and pìšš øff our other neighbors, on the off-chance that another terrorist might try to repeat the attempt?
Shall we build a heavily-armed wall there, too, and pìšš øff our other neighbors, on the off-chance that another terrorist might try to repeat the attempt?
How does that begin to relate to the situation with Mexico, seeing as how the individual was caught?
It sounds like something is working somewhere, doesn’t it?
Just because some Latino immigrants behave inappropriately is no reason to deport an entire segment of American society.
I’m not sure that anyone but the most insane fringe groups are calling for the deportation of legal immigrants and citizens of Hispanic descent. All most people want is enforcement of the current laws.
Does anyone have any statistics on hate crimes against Hispanic-Americans? Has there been a backlash since the immigration debate moved to the forefront of American polity?
With that said, since the economic factors which drive people to try to come to America are not going to go away anytime soon, I think we do need to look realistically at our immigration policy and make it easier for people to come to the US legally. As someone else noted, guestworker programs have been a disaster in Europe. We need a system that says up front that the end result of immigration is to become an American citizen. And that means not only obeying our laws, but also swearing allegiance to our country and renouncing loyalties to the government of your country of origin.
And yes, learning English would necessarily be part of the equation, too.
Also, if your ancestry is Italian, do you agree that all Italian-Americans should be deported because without Italian-Americans there would be no mafia? And without any Russian-Americans there would be no Russian mobsters. Should all Russian immigrants and descendants be deported?
I don’t think that anyone here has suggested anything analagous to what you’re suggesting. Straw-man argument all the way.
The other thing that bothers me about this issue is that I think it’s something W. and his cronies are using as a smokescreen behind which to hide from their current problems.
Bill, the problem with that is that GW is not getting ANY love on this. Most conservatives are very unhappy with his position. Some are livid. And I’ve yet to see any liberal who agrees with his position give him credit for sticking to his guns. So it’s a poor smokescreen.
On an interesting side note, here in NJ, they arested a Hispanic man on counts of running a prostitution ring – made up of ,wait, Illegal Immigrants….They were marched into custody, instead of in solidarity with their fellow Hispanics…
Oh its absolutely clear that this was meant to be an issue conservatives could get on when they don’t want to talk about Iraq. It’s just not going to work.
So it’s a poor smokescreen.
That it is, but that doesn’t mean that many in the administration thought that they could use the issue to get bad news about Iraq off the front page. The flip side of this is that if Bush’s poll numbers had been higher, he’d probably be getting a lot more love from the GOP in Congress on this issue.
I have a feeling that his guestworker program appeals to many of his major supporters who are looking for legalized cheap, temporary labor. But it isn’t playing well with the average voter, so the GOP pols are buying into it either.
Posted by: Craig J. Ries at May 2, 2006 10:31 AM
Bill, the problem I still find with this argument is that you’re expecting me to, more or less, pay for the sins of our forefathers.
No, I’m sorry, but that’s false. I never said that. I did say that we should address the problem of illegal immigration, but that it’s unseemly for us to moralize about it. I’m sorry if that confuses you, but it’s not a contradictory stance.
By the way, I understand you weren’t around when the injustices in question were committed. But if you live in the U.S. and are prospering to even the smallest degree, you are benefitting from those injustices. Does that mean I think you should have to “pay” for it in some way? No. I don’t think that and I never said I did. But I stand by the assertion that it puts us in a position where getting preachy is hypocritical.
Again, we have a right to establish laws controlling immigration, and a right to enforce those laws. But there are so many reasons not to get preachy. We took land from the natives. Many Mexicans are just trying to find a better life and don’t intend to hurt anyone. And I don’t know of anyone who’s clamoring for a job picking fruit at below-minimum-wage pay.
Feel free to disagree with me, okay? It’s perfectly cool. But please don’t ascribe views to me that I haven’t expressed. That’s not cool.
Posted by: Bill Mulligan at May 2, 2006 11:15 AM
Bill, the problem with that is that GW is not getting ANY love on this. Most conservatives are very unhappy with his position. Some are livid. And I’ve yet to see any liberal who agrees with his position give him credit for sticking to his guns. So it’s a poor smokescreen.
Point taken. But it’s possible the president miscalculated the public’s reaction. And he’s been known to stubbornly “stick to his guns” even when all available evidence indicates he was wrong. Sticking to your guns isn’t always a virtue. There’s a virtue in being willing to reflect, and make adjustments, as well.
But if you live in the U.S. and are prospering to even the smallest degree, you are benefitting from those injustices.
The problem with this canard is that human history if filled with instances of injustices between two peoples. Any time two technological or economically unequal cultures have come into contact, one side has gotten decimated. Everyone on earth is descended from people who both screwed and got screwed by other people. Rehashing centuries old grievances leads to disaster like the Troubles in Northern Ireland, genocide in Darfur, “ethnic cleansing” in the Balkans, and countless other pointless conflicts.
People need to acknowledge the past but move on.
But please don’t ascribe views to me that I haven’t expressed.
Well, I’m sorry you feel that way, but that’s the impression I received from your post.
I don’t feel in the least hypocritical because of something that happened hundreds of years ago, nor do I feel that it’s merely an effort on my part to ‘moralize’ the situation.
No, you didn’t outright say we should pay, but you seem to have taken the stance where we have no right to complain about illegals because of our nation’s history, when in fact we have every right.
But Den summed things up nicely.
Posted by: Den at May 2, 2006 12:01 PM
People need to acknowledge the past but move on.
Sigh… really, that’s pretty much what I’m saying, Den. I’m saying we should acknowledge that we’re a country of immigrants, and that most of us have no problem reaping the benefits of a past injustice, so we should get off our high horse. At the same time, illegal immigration is a problem, and rather than just throw our borders wide open in order to cleanse our guilt over past injustices, we should enforce our laws.
Maybe I’m just crazy, but I don’t think those are mutually contradictory ideas. I don’t think you can get up on a soapbox and criticize illegal immigrants without ignoring history — and he who ignores history is doomed to repeat it. That’s all I’m saying.
I’d like to know how many posters are Native North Americans. How many of your families actually originated in North America?
Oooh Me! And, unlike most of the white folks who have the old standby “My great-grandmother was a full-blooded Cherokee Princess” (eye roll), my Mother was Pawnee, my Father Apache/Prussian (what a mix, e?).
Anyway, the way to address the problem with illegal immigration is to take away the temptation. People are flooding our borders, risking life and limb during the crossing, because of the great riches that America affords them – picking fruit, cleaning toilets, making beds, digging ditches. If we would actually attack the corporations that are hiring them, for slave wages that seem like a fortune to them, and make the fines so great that there is no incentive to hire illegals, then there would be no reward in crossing the border illegally.
Posted by: Craig J. Ries at May 2, 2006 12:14 PM
No, you didn’t outright say we should pay, but you seem to have taken the stance where we have no right to complain about illegals because of our nation’s history, when in fact we have every right.
I’ve said repeatedly that illegal immigration is a problem that we have a right and a responsibility to address. I’ve acknowledged that illegal immigration is, in fact, illegal, and we have a right to enforce our laws.
You’re not arguing with me, you’re arguing with a straw man. I’m not sure why you’d waste the time and energy. Because it seems to me that on some core issues, you and I agree.
But Den summed things up nicely.
Kinda. But, again, he who ignores history is doomed to repeat it. So, even as we enforce our laws, I think it behooves us not to get up on a high horse, because the only way you can get up on that high horse is to ignore history. And there’s no benefit to ignoring history, and it’s impact on how we live today.
Acknowledging history is not tantamount to “white guilt,” okay? Acknowledging history is just… acknowledging history.
And for the millionth time, I agree that we need to do something about illegal immigration. But I still have some compassion for people trying to eke out a better existence. I’m not saying they’re necessarily “right” to do what they do. I’m just saying I can understand. It costs me nothing to try to empathize with them.
The context of one’s actions matter. Let’s say one man kills another in a blind rage. A second man is a member of the U.S. Army, and kills a terrorist as part of an operation to protect this country. Are you really going to tell me those actions are morally equivalent???
Admittedly, illegal immigrants aren’t inherently entitled to be here. But given that many of them just want a better life, I find it hard to join you in your chest-thumping. I’m sorry.