Got to love the corporate thinking. There’s Bob Greenberger putting out thousands upon thousands of pages of reprint material with an understaffed department. Mistakes were made, just as mistakes are made in all realms of publishing. So Bob finally gets the additional personnel he needs and institutes check systems to make sure no further problems occur…and he’s let go for a publishing error that occurred BEFORE the new check systems were in place.
I fully understand the consumer mindset that wants everything perfect for the high-priced volume they’re purchasing. I don’t understand, however, the corporate mindset that tosses aside someone with a total of, all told, well over a decade of service to the company. Then again, speaking as someone who hasn’t been offered new work in the DCU for going on nine years (the last new title I got was “Young Justice #1) maybe I do understand it at that.
PAD
• 
Not to take the edge off of a legitimate complaint, but wasn’t Fallen Angel a new title offered to you within the past nine years?
Or is there a distinction between concepts “they”
came up with and concepts you pitched to them?
–Ed
More importantly I think it is the fact that it was a creator owned project that wasn’t “in the DCU” (it wasn’t exactly anywhere really, pretty much in a self-contained universe).
I agree that it stinks that Bob was let go, but I don’t think a mistake in the Golden Age Hawkman Archives is the only reason. It was the excuse. From what Rich Johnston has been reporting (and take it with a grain of salt) and if I’ve been remembering it correctly, Bob was a victim of politics and not much else. Like I said, if I recall what I’ve been reading correctly, Bob has been on the outs with some upper management at DC, and the Archives mistake was just the excuse they needed to let him go.
“Not to take the edge off of a legitimate complaint, but wasn’t Fallen Angel a new title offered to you within the past nine years?”
Note I said “in the DCU.” DC made a point of telling fans that “Fallen Angel” was NOT in the DCU.
PAD
Absolutely there’s no doubt that Bob Greenberger’s firing is a sad thing, and I hope he lands on his feet.
But here’s a thought (that I also contributed over on newsarama.com):
The entire Warner Bros. division, of which DC is a part, has been laying off staff for a few months now. Something like 300-350 positions were eliminated between the movie studio and the TV networks. Might DC’s decision to fire Greenberger be related to some sort of company-wide staff-cutting edict?
(And, for the especially conspiracy-minded, is there any reason that DC might have exaggerated its rationale behind the action so as to fire Greenberger “for cause” rather than just a layoff.)
But anyway, that’s kinda a moot point. Being fired stinks, and here’s hoping that Greenberger lands on his feet, finding contentment in whatever his next position will be.
What was the mistake?
Yes, I too, as someone who is considering buying the Golden Age Hawkman Archives, would like to know what the mistake was.
I wouldn’t presume to comment on Bob Greenberger’s firing. I am, however, dismayed to read about industry veterans getting the cold shoulder at DC, Marvel or both. Roger Stern, John Byrne, Bill Messner-Loebs, Roy Thomas, and yourself, Mr. David, are all examples of veterans who have talked about receiving such treatment. Without a full understanding of each individual creator’s situation, I’d probably be going too far out on the proverbial limb to declare, “This is nothing but ageism rearing its ugly head!” But given the industry’s history of treating veterans shabbily, Mr. Ageism sure does appear to be supect number one.
Couple of thoughts;
Isn’t it weird how things have reversed? 3-4 years ago, it was Marvel showing bias against longtime industry veterans (including PAD and Bob), and DC was considered more friendly. Go figure.
Also, in that vein, I notice Bob says over on his blog that Jemas fired him back then… I wonder what the odds are of Bob returning to Marvel now that Jemas is gone? Seems like it could be a public relations coup for them; “DC tosses aside industry vet, Marvel sez: ‘You have a place with us!'”
What’s up with Paul Levitz anyway? I thought he was supposed to be a nice guy.
As for PAD not getting work at DC… DC’s standard procedure seems to be to poach whoever’s most valuable to Marvel. So following that logic, with the rave reviews X-Factor is getting, PAD should be getting a call any day now.
In all seriousness though, I think the main problem is that DC seems to want to sign creators to exclusives, and PAD has publically declared he would never sign an exclusive.
Yes, I too, as someone who is considering buying the Golden Age Hawkman Archives, would like to know what the mistake was.
A few pages were out of order.
“As for PAD not getting work at DC… DC’s standard procedure seems to be to poach whoever’s most valuable to Marvel. So following that logic, with the rave reviews X-Factor is getting, PAD should be getting a call any day now.”
Yeah — that’s exactly why I qualified my statements in my prior post. Things are not always as they appear on the surface.
Also, I acknowledge I may have been overly broad in lumping together the creators that I did. Roger Stern, for example, has been getting the cold shoulder from Marvel *and* DC for quite awhile now (although I believe he’s writing JLA classified with John Byrne doing the pencils).
Nevertheless, there does seem to be a pattern at work here and I can’t help but wonder if ageism isn’t a common thread.
Has it really been 9 years since Young Justice #1? Wow. In terms of writing the initial story to the time it sees print, how much lag time is there?
“In all seriousness though, I think the main problem is that DC seems to want to sign creators to exclusives, and PAD has publically declared he would never sign an exclusive.”
Uh, Marvel does that as well. Quite a bit.
I am, however, dismayed to read about industry veterans getting the cold shoulder at DC, Marvel or both.
I agree. I don’t follow comics as closely as some other stuff (and DC far less than Marvel), but this reeks of typical corporate cost-cutting to improve the bottom line, regardless of how it affects quality down the road.
I’ve been a huge fan of Dragonlance for over a decade, and have watched alot of the same kind of stuff occur to TSR and now Wizards of the Coast.
WotC had a huge round of layoffs not longer after D&D 3E was released. It was like “ok, you’ve done the hard work, here’s your pink slip”. It’s pretty sad.
I’ve got to agree, this sounds like an excuse to me. The unfortunate reality is that older, more experienced people are being forced out by younger guys not just in comics but across the entire entertainment industry. And if you think about it, the younger guys who don’t know all that much don’t want the more experienced people around because they’re a constant reminder of how little they know.
Having said all that, getting fired from a job is a soul-destroying experience, no matter what business you’re in. The last job I got laid off from was back in 1990, and the wonderful management people decided to let me go on a Friday afternoon, just a couple of hours before I was leaving for Newark Airport on vacation, thus ensuring I wouldn’t be around to clean out my desk or cause any trouble by talking to people. The only thing that made me a bit better was when I got back, I called one of my biggest customers who was a friend of mine, who promptly cancelled his account, costing the company about half a million dollars, which would have paid my salary for a decade or two. It might not have been the right thing to do, but it certainly got rid of that feeling of helplessness I had when I walked out the door.
The golden lining to that situation is I was in the middle of writing my first book at the time, and my wife convinced me to try going freelance full-time for a while and see how it went. That was over 15 years ago and I haven’t looked back since. So maybe things happen for a reason sometimes although it’s very difficult to believe it at the time.
All this over some pages of Golden Age Hawkman being out of order? Seems a bit of overkill to me. Someone at Warner must REALLY like some old-school Hawkman. Sheesh….
“Having said all that, getting fired from a job is a soul-destroying experience, no matter what business you’re in. “
Very well said. At the end of 2001 I was fired from a job I’d held for six years. They informed me of this just prior to 5 p.m. on a Friday, the last business day before New Year’s Eve. As I was cleaning out my desk my boss hovered over me and asked me to let him know the status of various projects so they could carry them on without me.
I was fired for performance reasons, which made the experience all the more painful. I felt utterly defeated and worthless on my way out the door. I came home to my girlfriend, dreading having to tell her that just a month after I moved in with her I had joined the ranks of the unemployed. Her response? “I know this may sound odd, Bill, but I’m glad this happened. You hated that job and now you have no reason not to move on.”
She was right. Getting fired ultimately turned out to be the best thing that could have happened. But going through it hurt worse than a sledge-hammer blow to the crotch.
I am, however, dismayed to read about industry veterans getting the cold shoulder at DC, Marvel or both.
**************
Yeah, I mean we see all these newcomers at DC now…. Newbies like Joe Kubert, Marv Wolfman, Walter Simonson, Howard Chaykin, George Perez. I mean, how’s a guy to keep up with this influx of new talent??
Having said all that, getting fired from a job is a soul-destroying experience, no matter what business you’re in.
Agreed, though I’m relieved to say it hasn’t happened to me as of yet.
A good friend of mine got fired from a company he co-founded. (It had been bought out, and his job was made progressively worse and worse until they just canned him.) Same sort of situation, in that they asked him to clean out his desk and leave without really talking to anyone.
However, his brother, the other co-founder, still had his job. Big mistake on the part of the firers. He logged into his brother’s computer remotely from his own office, grabbed everything of value, scrambled everything else and powered the machine down, all with the higher-ups not knowing a thing. He then left for the day and never came back.
The situation sucked pretty seriously, but there was at least that nice moment of karma.
TWL
“Yeah, I mean we see all these newcomers at DC now…. Newbies like Joe Kubert, Marv Wolfman, Walter Simonson, Howard Chaykin, George Perez. I mean, how’s a guy to keep up with this influx of new talent??”
Yes, there are industry veterans who are still actively working at DC. I never said there weren’t. I simply wondered if the number of veterans who are increasingly being shut out by Marvel and DC was indicative of an industry-wide trend. Just because Marvel or DC aren’t shutting out *every* veteran doesn’t rule out the possibility of a growing bias against veterans. Also, please go back and re-read what I’ve written. You’ll see that I acknowledged that even though “ageism” seemed a likely explanation from my vantage point, things are not always as they appear on the surface.
PAD:
Fallen Angel was listed in the DCU section of Previews, and I was certainly confused about whether or not it was DCU (for the first several issues), so DC’s message that it wasn’t, wasn’t very clear.
Matt:
Paul Levitz is probably a very nice guy, but as a businessman, he seems to favor a lot of office politics among his underlings and seems to have a limited amount of sentimentality.
“As I was cleaning out my desk my boss hovered over me and asked me to let him know the status of various projects so they could carry them on without me.”
Wow. So, how well did you manage to resist the tempation to tell him to take a flying leap?
“Wow. So, how well did you manage to resist the tempation to tell him to take a flying leap?”
Quite well, actually. I answered his questions and then left without another word. I didn’t want to add my dignity to the list of things the company had taken from me over the years.
“Just because Marvel or DC aren’t shutting out *every* veteran doesn’t rule out the possibility of a growing bias against veterans.”
On the other hand, there seem to be some vets who get work due to nothing more than their name. I can think of a few guys who do not produce quality work-and haven’t since the late 80’s, but are getting a large number of books handed to them from DC and Marvel.
It’s a fine line to walk.
At some of the comics boards there were people calling for “heads to roll” over the Hawkman misprint. I hope they have a better sense of what that means now.
It seems like pretty shabby treatment to a very nice guy. Companies like DC seem to put a very low priority on goodwill, which seems both shortsited and a poor way to treat people.
“In all seriousness though, I think the main problem is that DC seems to want to sign creators to exclusives, and PAD has publically declared he would never sign an exclusive.”
Uh, Marvel does that as well. Quite a bit.
Sure, but DC initiated it, and in several instances they have been quite insistent that creators drop whatever they were doing for Marvel immediately, or the deal was off (Barry Kitson comes to mind). They definitely treat these exclusives as a way to say “We have all the best creators, and you can’t get them at that other company.” Marvel, on the other hand, mostly tries to play catch up and get some publicity with its exclusives (like Jeph Loeb, who continues to do Superman/Batman). They definitely don’t have the resources to go to toe-to-toe with DC in a bidding war over guys like Busiek or Perez. So from DC’s perspective, the fact that they can’t lock PAD up makes him less valuable as a trophy.
What exactly was the mistake in the Hawkman Archives that was put forward as the reason for his dismissal? I read his comments over at his site (http://bgb.malibulist.com/archives/2006/01/the_other_shoe.html#comments), but no specific details were given.
It started over at the Masterworks board:
Sadly, My GA has 5 pages out of order around page 131-136, the story of Satana, the Tiger Lady!
http://p206.ezboard.com/fmarvelmasterworksfansitefrm2.showMessage?topicID=1972.topic
Clearly someone had to be fired. We’re talking about Satana the Tiger Lady here!
“The unfortunate reality is that older, more experienced people are being forced out by younger guys not just in comics but across the entire entertainment industry. And if you think about it, the younger guys who don’t know all that much don’t want the more experienced people around because they’re a constant reminder of how little they know.”
Reminds me of a movie I caught on TV about a decade ago. Don’t know the name of it, since I came in somewhere in the middle; but it starred Martin Sheen as a veteran TV news anchor/reporter in San Diego whom a pair of up-and-coming young anchors from out of town (one male, one female) were angling to displace. If I remember correctly, they were allied with the new management.
One thing they tried to do was to undercut him, and file stories he was working on before he did. Sheen’s character learns about this and sets a trap. He arranges for a friend to call him with a “tip” on a phone he _knows_ has an extension line the up-and-coming reporters can listen in on. The tip is that the cops have taken down a major drug lord, and the “tipster” mentions a specific name.
So, these two newcomers go on live with the “breaking news” to report the “story”, without bothering to get confirmation. When they do, the camera crew and others in the studio breaking into hysterical laughter. Seems the name of the “drug lord” the “tipster” gave was that of a key figure in San Diego history, if not the city’s founder.
Every industry has people who don’t know what they’re doing trying to force out people who do. In some cases, the “new blood” do know what they’re doing, and just want to do things differently- and that different way might even be better; but in other cases, like in this movie, they not only don’t know what they’re doing, but can’t be bothered to learn what went before, in order to best decide how to proceed from there.
The above is not a comment/reflection about the Greenberger situation, about which I know next to nothing. It’s just a reply to the general observation made by Joe Nazzaro.
Rick
P.S. I’m fairly certain I’ve told the story about this movie before, but what the heck? It fits.
“On the other hand, there seem to be some vets who get work due to nothing more than their name. I can think of a few guys who do not produce quality work-and haven’t since the late 80’s, but are getting a large number of books handed to them from DC and Marvel.
It’s a fine line to walk.”
What does or doesn’t constitute “quality work” is in the eye of the beholder. Which is why I’m always amused when someone asserts that so-and-so is only getting work because of his or her name. Unless you know the editors giving so-and-so the work, how do you know they aren’t really thrilled with so-and-so’s current output? Just because you don’t like the it?
Granted, if a veteran creator is constantly given assignments even though his or her current work doesn’t sell as well as that of other creators in the industry, he or she may well be getting by on her past reputation. I’ve read comments by people who see John Byrne, Chris Claremont and Frank Miller, for example, as belonging to that category. Isn’t it just possible, though, that when someone makes a contribution to an industry like they have, the industry owes them something in return?
I don’t know Bob Greenberger from Adam. But from the comments I’ve read from people who *do* know him, it sounds as though he gave DC a decade of good service. If that’s the case, it sounds as though DC owes him something in return as well. Something other than firing him, that is.
If that’s the case, it sounds as though DC owes him something in return as well. Something other than firing him, that is.
The question of what a company owes its employees is an interesting one, and one that’s far to complex and arguable to be ever settled on an internet blog post.
So I’ll just make two comments. First is that, really, we don’t know much about what DC may or may not have given Greenberger when they fired him–nor, really, should we; it ain’t much of our business. (In his blog, Greenberger talks about being handed some checks. Probably not a real severance package, but it’s also not nothing.) That said, sure, we whatever a company gives a laid off employee is never enough.
Second is that, this sad story reminds me that the old saying is very true, especially in today’s environment: If you love your job, that’s great. But you can’t expect your job to love you back.
The story matches with what is going on in general in business: People are a cost factor, nothing else. They keep you when you are useful but when that changes you are kicked out. It doesn`t matter if you have been in the company for 25 years (I have seen that in a German company where I worked) or if you have been valuable in other ways. As soon as you are no longer needed, when someone cheaper and who is less likely to cause friction with the top guys can take over, you can go.
It is nice when you are lucky to work for a good company in which the people at the top actually care for its personnell but from what I could see and from what I learned from other people I know – expect the opposite. Usefulness and economics are more important to them than loyalty.
Hopefully Bob Greenberger will land on his feet quickly and find another challenge. [crossing fingers]
Wow. Nine years since PAD was offered Young Justice #1. I really miss that book.
What were we talking about again?
Oh yeah! Too bad for Bob Greenberger. Getting fired sucks. I got fired from a job I only had for a week or two and it still sucked.
Pretty ironic for someone to mention Marv Wolfman as a veteran creator getting work at DC. I thought he went years without any DC work, and now I believe he has two whole projects – an infinite crisis sidebar and Games, the Titans graphic novel. That’s two stories, not two series. From one of the primary folks who raised DC’s profile in the 1980s?
As for Peter not having a new DCU series offered you for nine years, Yikes! At least you still have regular comics assignments someplace, though. I look at folks like William Messner-Loebs and Tony Isabella and Len Wein and Bob Rozakis and wonder how in the world the comics world could have let them go. And now Bob Greenberger, whom I’ve always associated with quality books as an editor and whom, judging from my experience with the DC collected editions, has done a great job there, too. I’ll be annoyed when I get my copy of the Hawkman archives and some pages are out of order, but my (and others) annoyance isn’t worth someone losing their job over. Maybe a stern talking to or at the extreme, a reduced bonus. I can’t even see cutting someon’s base pay for this.
In San Diego last year, I remember being introduced to Bob by a mutual friend. As Bob walked away, the friend leaned over a whispered “there goes a marked man”.
Seems he was correct.
Getting fired isn’t the end of the world, but it can sure shake your world up a bit, depending on your individual situation. I was one of more than a hundred who were fired after our company was bought by a competitor. I pretty much took it in stride because I’d only been with the company about a year and a half. But many of the others had been with the company for decades and had never worked anywhere else in their adult life. Those people were visibly crushed, and many were in tears. In retrospect, however, getting “down-sized” worked out very well for me, so I can’t complain.
Russ, I had a very similar situation to you in my first job out of college, where they were closing up the local plant here in my home town. I was in my twenties and not at all worried about finding work, but there were lots of people in their fifties and sixties who had spent virtually their entire adult lives working for this company, who was now trying to screw them out of their pensions, benefits, severance, and just about everything else. The union was called in, lots of lawyers, and the company had to back down.
Ironically, I was one of the very last people left when they closed the doors, not because of seniority, but simply because I could run the computers and they needed to keep getting the weekly reports. On my very last day of work, I put in the command to run the master report, which would print out at the main office in Kentucky, all 10,000 pages of it, all printed out on the old green bar paper. In those days, you couldn’t cancel a report; you had to let the entire thing run, all 10,000 pages of it. And then I put in the command to run it again, and again. I suspect that when they turned on their printer the next morning, it would have had to run for about ten hours, just to get of the printer queue they couldn’t get rid of. My little act of civil disobedience, in tribute to all those people who lost their jobs so a company could save a miniscule amount of money on their year-end profit sheets.
Not that I’d ever do something like that now of course.
1I was very upset to learn of Bob’s forced departure from DC. Bob has always been one of the nicest people I’ve ever met and a hëll of a good MC at Farpoint and Shore Leave. I hope to still see there. Josh
Bob is a great editor and a great industry resource. I hope someone in comics or the SF media will use his many talents soon.
I’m not sure why people are blaming Paul Levitz for the firing. Paul is a long time friend of Bob and Marty Pasko, who will be leaving DC soon. My guess is there’s more to this story. From personal experience, I’ve never heard Bob say anything that wasn’t complimentary of the current DC management. He’s one of DC’s biggest supporters!
The corporate mindset at work again.
Having myself had the dubious experience of being fired a few years ago, I can empathize with Bob Greenberger. After the shock and regret of it all wears off, Bob should find himself in a happier place. Life goes on, and Bob will using his considerable talents again- hopefully for a competitor of DC’s.
I got fired about two years ago for editing a magazine with declining circulation, even though the boss admitted that the magazine was better than ever content-wise and that the firing had nothing to do with my work performance whatsoever. But he told me this only after his second-in-command lapdog to the actual deed, which was a real chickets**t way to go about it. However, the one mistake they made was giving me 2 (well, 1 1/2 weeks) notice, so I made it a point to not do a gøddámņ thing during my last few days and take whatever I could from the company. I presume that’s why most smart businesses get rid of their canned employees right away.
This seems to be a common sentiment:
“I’ll be annoyed when I get my copy of the Hawkman archives and some pages are out of order, but my (and others) annoyance isn’t worth someone losing their job over. Maybe a stern talking to or at the extreme, a reduced bonus. I can’t even see cutting someon’s base pay for this.”
But I ask, what if it happened again and again? Errors that could have been caught with a simple proofreading, making it into expensive hardcover
books? What if you tried warning the people hired to produce these projects to stop screwing up but they kept letting errors get printed? I don’t know much about Greenberger’s situation or whether he was competant at his job. To be honest, I’m thinking of the Marvel collected editions department. The list of errors the the hardcover editions they’ve produced is simply incredible. An amazing amount of errors in the past 2 years, topped off with an obvious, preventable error in theie suppossed “crown jewel”, the FF Omnibus.
At what point does it stop being “just comics” and become a business. It’s easy to sneer at a story about “Satana, the Tiger Lady!” but reproducing that story accurately was somebody’s job.
I don’t understand why DC won’t give PAD a DCU book. PAD, in the past few months alone, has already participated in two major Marvel crossovers. PAD can “play ball” like the other writers at DC, and still tell quality stories in the process.
The least DC can do is offer PAD an Aquaman mini-series starring Arthur, since he’s no longer the main character of his own book.
“Just because you don’t like the it?”
Well, not so much me. I work in a comic shop. I could think of a few writers (including ones you names) who are consistantly named by customers as not doing good work at this time. Often these fans are frustrated because they have fond memories of the creator’s earlier work (I am in the process of getting the Fantastic Four Visionaries series…love me that Byrne era Fantastic Four) and now they find the creator is not writing or penciling at the same quality that they used to.
I do not, btw, want the above to be taken as my opinion regarding Bob being let go. From what I can see, moves were made to correct these problems, and noone waited to changes would work…seems pre-mature and not right to let him go.
“Often these fans are frustrated because they have fond memories of the creator’s earlier work (I am in the process of getting the Fantastic Four Visionaries series…love me that Byrne era Fantastic Four) and now they find the creator is not writing or penciling at the same quality that they used to.”
You know what’s weird? That it never, EVER occurs to those frustrated fans that their tastes have simply changed.
I’m not saying creators never lose speed off their fastball. But long-time fans of comics never seem to consider that oftentimes they first experienced particular creators through the eyes of–to quote G&S–credulous simplicity. That if they were reading those comics of long ago now, for the first time, they might consider them overwritten or wildly absurd.
PAD
I would not completely disagree, and I am sure in some cases it’s even that the fans tastes have not changed at all.
How does this credulous simplicity theory work? Hypothetically, if I used to like Chris Claremont’s writing, but now thinks its the pits, and am now a big fan of Brian Michael Bendis, has my “credulous simplicity” transferred over to Bendis, who I now see with rose colored glasses, or am I a more mature reader who no longer likes books that are now overwritten and wildly absurd.
If it’s the later, it would seem that disliking Claremont’s new stuff is still justified.
Sorry…unfinished thought…
What I meant to say:
I would not completely disagree, and I am sure in some cases it’s even that the fan’s tastes have not changed at all while the writer or artist has grown in another direction.
“You know what’s weird? That it never, EVER occurs to those frustrated fans that their tastes have simply changed.
I’m not saying creators never lose speed off their fastball. But long-time fans of comics never seem to consider that oftentimes they first experienced particular creators through the eyes of–to quote G&S–credulous simplicity. That if they were reading those comics of long ago now, for the first time, they might consider them overwritten or wildly absurd.”
Well said. I find it interesting, too, that so many fans *want* their favorite creators to remain static. All of us change over time, don’t we? Doesn’t it make sense that as a writer or an artist changes over time, that will be reflected in his or her work? Yet so many of my fellow comics readers seem to wish they could trap their favorite creators into remaining where they are like a fly in amber.
Personally, I find it exciting when a creator I’ve been following begins to explore new ground. It keeps things interesting.