Got to love the corporate thinking. There’s Bob Greenberger putting out thousands upon thousands of pages of reprint material with an understaffed department. Mistakes were made, just as mistakes are made in all realms of publishing. So Bob finally gets the additional personnel he needs and institutes check systems to make sure no further problems occur…and he’s let go for a publishing error that occurred BEFORE the new check systems were in place.
I fully understand the consumer mindset that wants everything perfect for the high-priced volume they’re purchasing. I don’t understand, however, the corporate mindset that tosses aside someone with a total of, all told, well over a decade of service to the company. Then again, speaking as someone who hasn’t been offered new work in the DCU for going on nine years (the last new title I got was “Young Justice #1) maybe I do understand it at that.
PAD
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PAD said:
“You know what’s weird? That it never, EVER occurs to those frustrated fans that their tastes have simply changed.”
(sorry, don’t know how to to real quotes)
That is the opinion I have held about my tastes in comics for years. Not that I am comparing your writing to Byrne’s; but years ago when you were taken off the Hulk I was one of those fans who couldn’t wait for your return to the book so you could do it right. However, when you finally returned, I had pretty much lost all interest in the character, and never did pick up the new issues.
At least I still buy comics occasionally, as opposed to most of the friends I knew who read comics 10-15 years ago who no longer read them at all.
There’s also a third option, and that’s changes in editors. Someone like Chris Claremont might’ve worked really well under Roger Stern, or Louise Simonson, but not as well under Mike Marts. Editors bring different things to the table.
All the best to Bob and his family, but I don’t think he’ll be outta work all that long. WWWWAAAAAAAAAAYYYY too much skill for that to happen. And PAD is once-again dead right, not to sound too fanboy, but he is. Every day people live a day, add those experiences to their makeup, and their tastes change. Life is dynamic, so should media be. Although I still crack up every time I read the old Star Trek 55, with the phaser proof vest. And the old adage about a door closing opening a window is often true, unfortunately, the window is rarely wide enough to chuck the people that fired you through.
Just to throw in a positive comment for Chris Claremont, to represent the side which doesn’t think he’s lost it:
I believe I have every issue of his current run on Uncanny X-Men, and it was worth the money. Yes, my brother and I do joke about the X-Men suddenly creating black holes with their powers as an example of how he’d stretched things a bit; and his House of M issues, while interesting, and tragic, weren’t as good as PAD’s House of M Hulks …. But these are largely, in a real way, his characters. No one knows them better, and having him back writing them has felt like the X-Men being truly “back” to me. (Though, Joss Whedon’s Astonishing, especially the first arc, is WOW.) And the post House of M Marvel seems to have inspired Claremeont: New Excalibur and Uncanny’s first post-M issues have been both very interesting and very grounded in human drama. If anyone is curious to check out Claremont on the X-Men these days, Uncanny #466, probably still findable, might be a good starting point.
Scott, a more apt comparison would be to dig up some of those older X-Men compilations, with stories like the death of Thunderbird. If you’re old enough to remember reading it back in the day, it probably seemed like superhero gold – but read with a more modern sensibility, the dialogue comes across as cheesy, the artwork substandard, and the motivations of the characters (especially Thunderbird) absurd in the extreme – wanting to die just because he’s not the absolute best at anything, even though none of the others can do everything he does?? Puh-leeeze!
Now, were Claremont still writing at that level (which I’m not suggesting he is – I think he’s improved greatly over the old days), his work today would never sell, even though back then it was cutting edge. Why? Because the audience for his work has grown more sophisticated. They won’t tolerate some of the older comic-book tropes. It’s not that the artist’s or writer’s skill has decreased, it’s that your tastes, as PAD noted, have changed.
it never, EVER occurs to those frustrated fans that their tastes have simply changed.
That can certainly be the case sometimes. I’ll agree with some of the other options people have posted as well (different editors being a strong option). There’s also one other that I’d point out: I think sometimes particular characters are a better “fit” to a creator than others.
Since this is PAD’s site, let’s use him as an example. Given that his writing usually (and I hasten to point out that there are exceptions) tends to have lots of quip-laden dialogue, it made perfect sense that he’d get his start on Spider-Man: it was a terrific match, even with the attendant darkness he brought to PPTSSM with things like “The Death of Jean DeWolff.”
I suspect that Peter would have a much harder time writing, say, a series with the Punisher as lead character. Not that it’d be impossible by any means, but it strikes me as less likely to play to his strengths. (Having said that, I figure his next big announcement will be that he’s doing a Punisher book, in which case I’ll sign on for at least the first few issues and see how it goes. 🙂
As another example, I think that, both in writing and in art, Walt Simonson was born to do Thor. He’s done other things that I’ve quite liked, but the Thor/Walt combo was absolute lightning in a bottle. I couldn’t picture him doing, oh … Daredevil, nearly as well. (And again, I simply could be wrong.)
Just some thoughts.
TWL
I suspect that Peter would have a much harder time writing, say, a series with the Punisher as lead character.
That’s funny, because when Marvel announced the upcoming New Universe project and I mentioned PAD’s run on Justice, I got a few bitter responses about how he’d taken a fantastic character and made him (paraphrasing) just another Punisher.
After having read it, I can only conclude one thing: It was better than the Punisher. See, to write the Punisher, you essentially have to write a soulless killing machine. (At least that’s how he’s been written lately.) PAD’s Justice was interesting, complex, and just human enough to be likeable. Nothing like Punisher. (Looking forward to the upcoming special, BTW.)
Peter’s absolutely right. As a matter of fact, changing tastes are one of the only constants in the comics industry (or many industries, for that matter).
It’s pretty much a given that what’s hot today is not what was hot yesterday, and is not what will be hot tomorrow.
The trick for any creator (and publisher) is to keep riding the wave — i.e., staying on top of the “product life” bell curve for whatever is hot at the moment. Like real surfing, when a wave starts to fizzle out, you find the next one and ride it awhile.
Well, if they were cranky that the whole business of him being a Justice Warrior from another dimension went away, I kind of get that. The revised version was more down to earth. However, I wasn’t the one who decided to ditch the other dimensional stuff. That went away as a concerted effort to make the NU more of what it was supposed to be originally: The normal world with the one tweak of the White Event causing changes.
It was decided by the Powers That Be when we were revamping the NU that it was a mistake to have introduced an alternate dimensional character in the first place since it violated the basic premise. Mark Gruenwald, if I’m remembering correctly, came up with the whole way the thing was fixed.
Comparing Justice to the Punisher doesn’t surprise me. It’s commonplace for fans to seize upon the most surface of elements and declare something to be a knock off of something else. Fans dismissed “Buzz” in Supergirl as being a Constantine rip off at first. Then, as the series developed and they realized the two were nothing alike, they started calling him a Spike rip-off…even though he predated Spike. When “Fallen Angel” was announced, some people (*cough* Byrne and Co. *cough) read the initial promo material and declared it to be nothing more than a Buffy rip-off. Does ANYONE think the two properties are similar now?
I turned him into the Punisher. As if the Punisher is a stunningly original concept. “Hey, guys! The Executioner books are really popular! Let’s do an Execution-style character!”
Justice was nothing like the Punisher.
PAD
Hey, guys, what’s going on in this thread?
DC has been making a number of personnel changes.
As has been mentioned DC is aware of errors and is trying to reduce these issues.
Absolute Watchmen was a fiasco of a far greater order than GA Hawkman. One wonders if GA Hawkman was just a straw…
And of course there is sales expectations. One wonders if the Showcase and Archives lines have been meeting expectations.
DC and Marvel rightly or wrongly are going to do whatever they can to increase sales.
Absolute Watchmen was a fiasco of a far greater order than GA Hawkman.
I’m not familiar with this fiasco. What went wrong with [b]Absolute Watchmen[/b]? Anything that could be attributed to editorial/production issues?
One wonders if GA Hawkman was just a straw…
The thought occurred to me, too. After all, for every problem a business encounters that their fans and customers find out about, there might be others (perhaps many others) that arise and are dealt with internally, that fans/customers never learn.
In any case and apropos of nothing, depsite all the talk about Golden Age Hawkman Archives, isn’t it the case that Greenberger didn’t do a lot of work on the Archive Edition series. Wasn’t he more involved with DC’s other collected editions lines? TPBs and the like?
And of course there is sales expectations. One wonders if the Showcase and Archives lines have been meeting expectations.
Even indulging in my wildest conspiracy theorization, I don’t think DC would’ve fired Greenberger because of sales reasons.
First, though I, of course, have no idea what DC’s sales expectations are, I kinda doubt that the sales for these lines are so dire as to encourage cutting staff.
Second, if sales were than bad, I’d think the first indication would be that those lines would be cut, not that staff would be cut. And we’re not seeing that; DC’s still publishing Archives, and still announcing Showcases.
Third, I doubt that Greenberger was the one who controlled what got published; if things got so bad as cause someone to be axed, I kinda doubt Greenberger would be the one held accountable for creating poor-selling lines when, y’know, he didn’t create them.
Marvel is seen as having the momentum with their Essentials, Masterworks, and comic collections on DVD.
DC is playing catch-up having trailed the Essential line and is as of now a no-show on DVD.
The choice of what to Archive and what to reprint has left many fans unsatisfied. Those choices impact sales.
Then there are the issues of printing errors.
I’m not here to be the anti-Bob but to express that there was and is varying levels of discontent on the part of the buying audience.
The perception is that Marvel’s Collected Editions has been listening to fans and improving their line while DC has had quality control issues and hasn’t been catering to what readers want to buy.
That’s not a happy climate to be in if one is an editor.
Marvel is seen as having the momentum with their Essentials, Masterworks, and comic collections on DVD.
DC is playing catch-up having trailed the Essential line and is as of now a no-show on DVD.
The choice of what to Archive and what to reprint has left many fans unsatisfied. Those choices impact sales.
Then there are the issues of printing errors.
I’m not here to be the anti-Bob but to express that there was and is varying levels of discontent on the part of the buying audience.
Sure. But my earlier point is that except for that last point about printing errors, Greenberger wasn’t really involved at any of those other levels. He didn’t control what DC reprinted or Archived, or what electronic formats DC would publish in or license to, and he certainly didn’t control anything about Marvel or fan perception.
It therefore strikes me as unlikely that the reason for his firing had anything to do with those other reasons. The notion that his firing did have to do with those sorts of reasons, though understandable speculation, strike me as greater conspiracy-theory thinking than even I can indulge in. But that’s just me.
In any case, the DC’s real motivation for firing Greenberger in known only to the company, so it’s unlikely anyone else is learn those reasons for certain.
It really has nothing to do with conspiracy.
It’s a numbers/sales game. If the numbers and sales aren’t meeting expectation or if a competitor appears to be doing better in the same area it’s going to create pressure for change.
If books are released with errors on a consistent basis it can depress initial orders as people wait to ensure that the books are ok. I’m thinking about the $50 and $75 books. Those are the ones with high profit margins and ones that a publisher is going to be especially keen about.
There’s a small audience of buyers for the Archives and if the books are flawed it burns the buyers, the retailers, and DC. No retailer wants to be stuck with $50 books that can’t be sold because they’re flawed.
Whether it’s DC or whomever it may be, I think that Bob and all would agree that $50 and up books demand an even higher level of attention to quality.
It’s a numbers/sales game. If the numbers and sales aren’t meeting expectation or if a competitor appears to be doing better in the same area it’s going to create pressure for change.
We don’t disagree. I’m just saying that
if the problems were just sales-oriented (a mighty big if, since, as I said, DC doesn’t seem to be cutting back their publishing program for these lines, which you’d expect them to do if they sales weren’t satisfactory) it’s unlikely that that pressure for change would manifest itself by firing a production editor. In that scenario, you’d expect them to fire a salesperson, or a marketing person, or someone with responsibities other than Greenberger’s.
If, on the other hand, the problems are primarily editorial- or production-oriented (which problems could then result in lessened sales or consumer confidence,) that’s when you’d expect an editor or prodution person to be fired.
We’re not in disagreement. I just think that it’s unlikely that Greenberger was fired because sales on certain products were unsatisfactory. I think it’s perfectly likely that Greenberger was fired because he was perceived as responsible for editorial and/or production errors that may have affected sales or increased expenses. That may be a trivial difference, but I think it’s a distinction worth making, ‘cuz I think a lot of fans won’t.
I agree that we don’t necessarily disagree.
I believe that Bob had some input into the decisions that were made regarding what was and wasn’t to be collected.
DC has a huge library of material which has not been collected. Poor sales doesn’t necessitate that the entire line be dropped. But gauging demand is important. Some choices are more profitable than others.
Just as releasing trades in a timely fashion for current comics can generate sales. DC has begun to get a clue as to how to do this.
I have nothing against Bob but DC has/had changes that need/ed to be made. Now whether the situation will improve remains to be seen.
Okay, this is a bit off topic but I don’t know a better forum for this question.
PAD, what happened to your part in Marvel’s recent “Wha.. Huh?!” comic? I remember you talking about the book here and I bought it because your and Joe Straczynski’s names were mentioned in the solicitations.
JMS said he was surprised to see his name in the solicits since no one ever contacted him about the project but what about you…? It was mostly written by Bendis and Millar and not very funny at all.
I dunno WHAT the hëll happened with “Wha..Huh.” I submitted about a dozen premises, and they loved the one which went, “What if Peter Parker had never gained Spider powers and HE was shot by the burglar?” And basically it was a large panel of the Parker house with a “room for rent” sign hanging outside. That was the whole bit.
Personally, I far preferred one of my others, “What if Black Bolt had Tourette Syndrome?” Couldn’t convince ’em to go for that one.
PAD
Personally, I far preferred one of my others, “What if Black Bolt had Tourette Syndrome?”
Seen you mention that before, but you haven’t divulged what the punchline was, yet. Spill, man, spill!
I believe that the set-up is the punchline and that not a mountain would be left #@!$!@$ standing.
Fred
Someone will wind up with one hëll of an editor.
“Someone will end up with one hëll of an editor”
I just finished reading Bob’s Chakotay/Tuvok story “Command Code” from the ST Voyager: Distant Shores anthology. Besides editing, this guy’s still an awesome writer. Very nice characterization!