You know, it always causes me giggles when Christians complain of how ill-used and oppressed Christianity is in this country. Because, y’know, having the only religion for which government shuts down on your major holidays isn’t enough due diligence. Still, it can’t help the perception of your faith when your major spokesmen in this country are áššhølëš. Kind of skews perceptions of you. Consider Pat Robertson, bastion of Christian charity, advocating the covert assassination of Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez.
Oh yeah. I seem to recall, from my limited familiarity with the New Testament, that Jesus advocated such thinking. Right between “Love thy neighbor” and “The meek shall inherit the Earth,” he espoused,
“We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability.”
I can understand why Pat Robertson is such a prominent religious figure. Every time the guy opens his mouth, people say, “Chriiiiiiist.”
PAD
• 
And it’s not as if your President is doing anything to improve that perception out here in Not-America. (Not that I blame that on you at all PAD – he’s your President only under duress.)
The fact that there are more than three people on the planet that take Pat Robertson seriously never ceases to amaze me. I remember in the mid-90s when he jumped on the Y2K bandwagon and started preaching on the 700 club that the entire world economy was going to collapse on January 1, 2000 because, you know, it says so in the Bible. Then in the next segment, he’d give viewers long-term financial advice. Hello?
Between his investments in a slave mining operation in Africa and his “Christian vitamin” business, Pat has shown to be a total hypocrite for decades now.
Before Ross Perot, he was known as the nutbar presidential candidate.
If you think calling for the assassination of a foreign president is weird, the Daily Show had a clip of him last week praying for more openings on the Supreme Court. So he’s also called on God to bump off a few justices as well.
Yeah, unfortunately it appears Pat Robertson prefers the Book of Numbers — where that quote can be found, maybe not verbatim, but gosh dang close.
“If you think calling for the assassination of a foreign president is weird, the Daily Show had a clip of him last week praying for more openings on the Supreme Court. So he’s also called on God to bump off a few justices as well.”
Well if you can’t call in a few favors to the big guy…..
I saw the article about this last night.
I mean, sure, Chavez is a nutjob as well. But for Pat Robertson to make a comment like this?
Yeah, I’m sure that’s just want Chavez needs – more fuel for his anti-American tirades.
Of course, being one of the largest oil-producing countries in the world, if we actually decided on a whim to stop buying oil from Venezuela, Chavez would just bìŧçh and moan about how the Americans are just trying to ruin his country, blah blah blah.
“If you think calling for the assassination of a foreign president is weird, the Daily Show had a clip of him last week praying for more openings on the Supreme Court. So he’s also called on God to bump off a few justices as well.”
Okay, well, to be totally fair, he COULD simply be praying for more justices to retire…
PAD
oppressed? i wouldn’t say that but… i do complain sometimes. Mainly because I despise the public spokesmen of my religion and believe most of them are morons. They don’t speak for me.
it bothers me that people’s first and sometimes only impression of Christianity is Bush Christianity or Falwell Christianity. And it frustrates me that “Christian” is becoming almost a “dirty” word….
“oh…you’re christian?”
but i mainly blame it on the vocal minority who give us a bad name.
though it would be nice if people would be a little more specific when making blanket statements about christians. i know some people are specific, but a lot just say “those christians are up to it again!” and my response is “um, I’m a christian…and i’m not up to anything again!”
“Yeah, unfortunately it appears Pat Robertson prefers the Book of Numbers — where that quote can be found, maybe not verbatim, but gosh dang close.”
No kidding. Where?
PAD
It’s not as if I’m against killing foreign heads of state if they prove to be dangerous to our country, but to have a religious leader saying it is just plain creepy.
Well, here. Check out the Landover Baptist Bible Quizes.
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/quizlist.html
My favorite is Exodus 21:17 – “And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.” I guess Jack Osbourne is in some deep sh!t.
Well, here. Check out the Landover Baptist Bible Quizes.
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/quizlist.html
My favorite is Exodus 21:17 – “And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.” I guess Jack Osbourne is in some deep sh!t.
Well, here. Check out the Landover Baptist Bible Quizes.
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/quizlist.html
My favorite is Exodus 21:17 – “And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.” I guess Jack Osbourne is in some deep sh!t.
oppressed? i wouldn’t say that but… i do complain sometimes. Mainly because I despise the public spokesmen of my religion and believe most of them are morons. They don’t speak for me.
They don’t speak for you, no, but I hardly see throngs of Christians, of any denomination, denouncing those like Robertson and Falwell.
it bothers me that people’s first and sometimes only impression of Christianity is Bush Christianity or Falwell Christianity.
Well, ‘moral values’ was half the reason Bush got reelected, but apparently the country doesn’t seem to mind following Bush’s Christianity.
And it frustrates me that “Christian” is becoming almost a “dirty” word….
Hardly.
Now, words like ‘liberal’, ‘gay’, and ‘lesbian’, on the other hand, would be added to those “seven dirty words” if some had their way.
it bothers me that people’s first and sometimes only impression of Christianity is Bush Christianity or Falwell Christianity. And it frustrates me that “Christian” is becoming almost a “dirty” word….
Which is, in essence, the same thing that’s happening to the Islam. Which does not mean I’m equating Bush with Bin Laden, but hey, if the shoe fits, you’ve finally managed to find the right foot. Or some such. 😉
Bottom line: there’s too many nutballs in any faith – including atheism.
“Okay, well, to be totally fair, he COULD simply be praying for more justices to retire…”
Come on PAD, Judgeing by all the things he has said over the years……
for those who don’t know what he has said over the years….. form the AP article on yahoo news
“Robertson has made controversial statements in the past. In October 2003, he suggested that the State Department be blown up with a nuclear device. He has also said that feminism encourages women to “kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.”
Okay, well, to be totally fair, he COULD simply be praying for more justices to retire…
Sometimes what is left unsaid is telling. What he did not say is for God to change their hearts to convince them to retire.
craig-
They don’t speak for you, no, but I hardly see throngs of Christians, of any denomination, denouncing those like Robertson and Falwell.
oh they exist. some (because there are two versions of them) presbyterians and episocopalians…. and many non-denominationals… they just don’t get any air time. its kind of how the libertarians are growing, but still you hardly hear from them on news channels or debates.
Well, ‘moral values’ was half the reason Bush got reelected, but apparently the country doesn’t seem to mind following Bush’s Christianity.
or, half the country anyway. and a lot of the people i talked to who voted for bush were voting against Kerry and it seems a lot of those people are regretting it now with the way Iraq is going.
as far as the moral values thing goes, its sort of on a pendulum. 70’s had a sexual revolution…80’s had a counter sexual revolution, the 90’s didn’t go all 70’s on us but it swung back left again…and now it’s right again…hopefully eventually it’ll stop swinging in the middle.
Hardly.
Now, words like ‘liberal’, ‘gay’, and ‘lesbian’, on the other hand, would be added to those “seven dirty words” if some had their way.
well, i guess its perception… half the US is conservative and the other half liberal right now….. i hang out with mostly liberals and to them, christianity is almost a dirty word.
so yes, you’re right, some would have those be dirty words but i don’t hear that as much…. even though i do live in alabama lmao
Yeah, I’m sure that’s just want Chavez needs – more fuel for his anti-American tirades.
Well, it’s not like the Bush administration publicly backed a military coup to depose him.
Oh, wait. . .
Bottom line: there’s too many nutballs in any faith – including atheism.
there are too many nutballs period….
and who the hëll gave them the microphone!?
“Robertson has made controversial statements in the past. In October 2003, he suggested that the State Department be blown up with a nuclear device. He has also said that feminism encourages women to “kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.”
That’s simply not true. My mother has NEVER been gay. 😉
It’s unfortunate that lunatics like this bozo get such followings. It’s the same zealotry that let Hitler come into power.
I wish people would wake up and see what’s becoming of this country before it’s too late. Unfortunately, they’re really not close to opening their eyes just yet.
that Jesus advocated such thinking. Right between “Love thy neighbor” and “The meek shall inherit the Earth,”
Don’t forget “Blessed are the peacemakers”
And this is one of the áššhølëš that preach that Islam is a religion of violence.
BTW, Pat Robertson has concluded that abortion-on-demand and no-fault divorce are both the fault of gays.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200508170006
BTW, Pat Robertson has concluded that abortion-on-demand and no-fault divorce are both the fault of gays.
well falwell thinks that aids is because of gay people also, because they have such a high incidence of it….
actually…straights are second….
the least amount of aids cases happens in lesbians.
therefore, by falwell logic, Lesbians are God’s chosen people!
Y The Last Man was right! Go Brian K. Vaughn!
From the CNN report on Robertson’s comments:
“In November 2002, Robertson charged that the Muslim holy book, the Quran, incites followers to kill people of other faiths and disputed Bush’s characterization of Islam as a religion of peace.”
Which is COMPLETELY different that HIS inciting his followers to support a covert assassination of Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez, of course.
Hunh… It just amazes me sometimes that a lot of those witches Robertson mentions (or at least the ones I know) act a LOT closer to how Jesus taught then a lot of so-called “Christians.”
Me, I just tell people that I’m Christian by philosophy as opposed to by affiliation, meaning I strive to follow Christ’s example (falling short more often than not) without subscribing to a particular denomination or to all of the extraneous bûllšhìŧ that religion insists on foisting upon everyone.
From what I’ve seen of the article, I have to take issue with the characterization of Robertson as calling for the covert assassination of Chavez.
I don’t think there’s anything covert about it.
Pat, Pat, Pat…
TWL
Pat Robertson is a total wingnut. It’s only news these days when he can go a full week without saying something nutty as a peanut factory.
I saw the headline, noticed PR’s name and bypassed.
Sadly, it’s not just him. I find it interesting that Billy Graham and Sons continue to garner great respect after 1) the revelation of BG’s comments inside Nixson’s office and 2) the Graham camp along with the help of Jerry Vines and the SBC denounced the entirity of Islam and called their prophet a terrorizing bigamist pedophile.
My views towards these people isn’t a global condemning of Christianity. I retain a healthy respect towards my parents for nurturing my spirituality. But I’ve really begun to despise the “leaders” of any organized religion. I haven’t found an honest one yet.
There’s a quote from Seven that I think is pertinent here:
“C’mon, he’s insane. Look. Right now he’s probably dancing around in his grandma’s panties, yeah, rubbing himself in peanut butter.”
Pat, Pat, Pat.
Please stop believing in my relgion. You’re making the rest of us look stupid.
Of course, I’m an Episcopalian, so Pat probably doesn’t think I’m really a Christian — too close to the Roman Catholics, y’know.
*Graham’s antisemitic comments inside the Nixson office.
A quote and a personal view…
“Those who look for ‘hate’ usually find it.” (And I wish I knew who to attribute it to.)
And I have always said that I have no problem at all with religion – an religion. It’s *organised* religion that I have a problem with. Shouldn’t worship be between you and your god/ess? Why should you need *anyone* in between.
Of course, if that idea took hold, then all those church people would lose their nice cushy jobs and their power base. Which is why the Catholic church went to extremes to wipe out the so-called Albigensian heresy a few centuries back. Gnosticism was simply unacceptable, as is anything which threatens those in power.
you are great sir. you really, really are.
I really, really had to bite my tounge this weekend while visiting my mother. She’s very spiritual, a devout Catholic. The last “discussion” (she doesn’t discuss, she states) we had even close to politics was how she was voting for Bush because of the abortion issue, and me making some attempt to be logical about it and say how the office of the President has very little to do with deciding how that issue is to be resolved, and there were greater things that the President did have influence and control over, and blah blah blah, and in the end, how she could only support Bush.
So, as the news show on the TV is stating how it’s been another bloody week in Afghanistan and Iraq, she shakes her head sadly and says “you know, our Pope begged us not to attack there.”
So, there I am, biting my tounge, while inside I’m screaming “THEN WHY DID YOU VOTE FOR THE MAN THAT SENT US IN THERE!”
Apparantly, Robertson’s close connection to God allows him to see the evil that lurks in the hearts of men. How else could he offer condemnation of another man?
Hey, does that make Robertson….the Shadow?
As an Agnostic (with Discordian leanings), I am far from a fan of organized religion, or many unorganized religions. That said, I hate the idea that fundamentalists like Pat Roberts represent Christianity in America. Roberts is a fanatic, someone willing to ignore both the tenants of his own religion (I seem to recall the words “Thou shalt not kill” being on the Top 10) and whatever disagrees with him (according to the IMDB, Claimed that the portion of the U.S. Constitution that pertains to the separation of church and state was not in the original Constitution and was forged onto it by a Communist spy sent to Washington, DC, by the Russians in the late 1920s. According to Robertson, the original framers of the Constitution were told by God that the United States was to be governed by a coalition of ministers, businessmen and property owners, and that the words “democracy” and “republic” are nowhere to be found in the original U.S. Constitution, the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights). But he’s visible and controversial, and those make him more newsworthy (or at least more likely to make the news) than people with moderate views, Christians who don’t believe in advocating assassinations.
Now it’s up to those Christians, those believers, to stand up and say they disagree with Roberts, that his views are not Christian views and they do not advocate state-sanctioned murder.
(Alas, Bush is far too scared of the Religious Reich, er, Right to say anything against a believer.)
“I seem to recall the words “Thou shalt not kill” being on the Top 10″
I think the more faithful translation of the Old Testament Commandment is Thou Shalt Not Murder. superceded of course by Jesus Turn the Other Cheek approach.
“I hate the idea that fundamentalists like Pat Roberts represent Christianity in America.”
He doesn’t. He just happens to have a lot of money, and a podium.
“Now it’s up to those Christians, those believers, to stand up and say they disagree with Roberts, that his views are not Christian views and they do not advocate state-sanctioned murder.”
Problem is, true Christians won’t do this, because Jesus didn’t teach them to go out into the world and speak out. He taught them to teach by doing, not by speaking. He taught them specifically to NOT go out on the street corner (TV program?) and declare their spirituality to the world, proclaiming how great they were because they were close to God.
Oh, and who were those folks Christ was referring to? The Hypocrites.
And I have always said that I have no problem at all with religion – an religion. It’s *organised* religion that I have a problem with. Shouldn’t worship be between you and your god/ess? Why should you need *anyone* in between.
This pretty much sums up my view of the whole thing.
Well, that and the supposed duty to ‘convert’ people, far too many hypocrits compared to the normal of decent religious people, a few other things.
I mean, if you’re agnostic (which is what I consider myself), aetheist, or even non-Christian, and Bush says “God told me to attack Iraq”, well, you should have a problem with that.
Hëll, if you’re any kind of Christian, you should have a problem with that.
Alas, Bush is far too scared of the Religious Reich, er, Right to say anything against a believer.
Why would he fear them when he is a card-carrying member?
And I have always said that I have no problem at all with religion – an religion. It’s *organised* religion that I have a problem with. Shouldn’t worship be between you and your god/ess? Why should you need *anyone* in between.
I agree 100%. The real fear organized religion has, and this is why so many like Robertson wage war on science, is that if people start to think for themselves, people will realize that the world doesn’t need them. But what do I know, I am just one of few remaining deluded fools who believed that one of the underlying principles of America was that every individual had the right to explore or not explore their own spiritual path.
“But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
I think you will be hard-pressed to find anyone who hangs around on this site – even the Conservatives – supporting Robertson. He is not to be taken seriously.
Bluntly speaking, I have a problem considering anyone who gets on national TV and asks for money in the name of God as much of a leader in ANY religious movement.
I wish I knew who said this:
“God, please protect me from your followers!”
With so many fundamentalists around you knew the net would rebel:
http://venganza.org/
WWFSMD indeed.
You know, I find it absolutely incredible that this Robertson can still, in any way, shape or form consider himself a Christian. His statements are so obviously completely self-centered and hateful. Even his reason for assassination is because it’s “cheaper.” No, Mr. Robertson, you’re the one who’s cheaper.
And, by the way, I’m a gay, liberal, Episcopalian Christian.
Some Christians here have been saying “Pat Robertson doesn’t speak for me.” They should be asking themselves, “Why am I allowing him to imagine that he does speak for me?”
Simply because he states that he is a “man of God,” a great number of Christians allow him to say what he wants, unchallenged. The silence from the people in the pews might be understandable, especially when other public religious leaders won’t challenge him. It seems to take completely insane comments from a public preacher to begin the questions – such as Oral Roberts’s statement that unless he got more contributions, God would ‘take him home.'”
Do you know why Robertson and Fallwell and the other wackos are the leaders of Christianity?
Because all of the real Christians don’t have the money to get on TV. They’re too busy feeding the poor and ministering to sick people and trying to scrub off all the crap that keeps falling on them from the nutjobs who think they’re in charge of God.
“They should be asking themselves, “Why am I allowing him to imagine that he does speak for me?””
??? Rather, I would say, why does everyone assume Robertson speaks for all, a majority, or even some Christians? Where are the thongs of Christian followers saying “Right on, PR! That’s the way the Good Book teaches us!”
Do I also need to rent out a billboard to distance myself from Eminem’s latest single, saying that just because he and I are from the same part of Michigan, he doesn’t speak for me? The fact that Robertson is mostly a lone voice should tell you that he is what he seems…a looney religious extremist with lots of money and a public venue to spew his particular brand of hateful rhetoric.
Re: Robertson, et al. I’m reminded of Snoopy’s book on theology, entitled, “Did You Ever Consider That You Might Be Wrong?”
Linus also asked the same question at an evangelical summer camp the kids had somehow ended up attending.
At that same camp, Peppermint Patty was worried about the impending end of the world the camp leaders kept going on about, until Marcie directed her attention to their long-term plans to expand their facilities. That opened Patty’s eyes.
Rick
Rather, I would say, why does everyone assume Robertson speaks for all, a majority, or even some Christians?
I could ask the same about Bush, couldn’t it?
Why is it assumed that because he got 25% of the vote in this country, he has a mandate?
Well, it’s because nobody else out there stands up and gets more (and worthwhile) attention.
So, until somebody does, Robertson and Falwell will continue to spew this kind of crap.
I mean, take the Sheehan situation. She stands up and says “you can’t speak for my son”.
Now you’ve got counter-groups standing up saying “and Sheehan can’t speak for our sons”. Which is a good thing – everybody speaks for themselves, rather than letting everybody else speak for them.
Basically, somebody needs to put Robertson in his place. No, he no more speaks for Christians than a radical Islamic cleric speaks for all of Islam.
But as long as people are willing to listen to the fringe radicals, they won’t go away. And people won’t stop assuming they speak for all.
From this year’s DragonCon:
Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick –
http://www.dragoncon.org/photos04/fans/images/Fans-318.jpg
http://www.dragoncon.org/photos04/fans/images/Fans-317.jpg
Actually, Craig, I don’t know that anyone could make Robertson go away any more. If he’s got any financial savvy about him, he’s invested his donated millions well enough that he could continue to thrive on interest alone, and thus continue to speak his mind.
I considered mentioning how the President doesn’t speak for America, except that, by virtue of having won the election, he sort of does. He doesn’t speak for me, specifically, but despite my stated opposition to his policies here and elsewhere, I don’t think I need to affirmatively state my position in order to have it.
Robertson only speaks for other Christians because the people that hear him assume he does. He’s never been elected, so far as I know, to represent any general Christian group, and the farthest you could take him as a representative is one that speaks for the people that support him through donations. To say that he represents anything more is a false impression on behalf of the listener.
I don’t think anyone needs to put Robertson in his place. His own actions are doing a bang-up job of declaring his place all on his own. And I’m willing to bet it’s not the place of white, fluffy clouds and perpetual harp music.
Why Pat Robertson’s Statements Help Hugo Chavez
The Venezuelan President has long thrived on criticism from the U.S.
By TIM PADGETT
Posted Tuesday, Aug. 23, 2005
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has a new best friend this morning: television evangelist Pat Robertson. With his astonishing call for the left-wing leader’s assassination last night—”I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it…We have the ability to take him out”—Robertson will have surely made Chavez an even more popular anti-yanqui icon in Venezuela, Latin America and around the world. Like his mentor Fidel Castro, Chavez thrives on threats from the U.S., real or perceived. He has long insisted that his foes are plotting to kill him, and this summer had armed civilians training with the Venezuelan military to prepare for what he says is an imminent U.S. invasion. A public effort to whack him, offered from the right-wing Christian establishment so closely aligned with President Bush, is just what Chavez needs to keep his approval ratings soaring as high as the price of the Venezuelan oil he controls, the largest crude reserves in the hemisphere.
Chavez is no doubt a source of concern for Washington, if only because Venezuela is America’s fourth-largest foreign oil supplier. Chavez’s erratic and often bellicose anti-U.S. rhetoric—he publicly called Bush an “ass____” in Spanish last year—as well as his desire to sell less oil to the U.S. and more to ideological allies like China, are hardly comforting as gas nears $3 per gallon. But neither is Chavez’s embrace of nations like Iran, and nor is the fact that he’s leading a politically potent (and, to the Bush Administration, potentially destabilizing) wave of angry neo-leftism in Latin America, from Argentina to Mexico.
But Chavez holds cards that make remarks like Robertson’s all the more incendiary on the Latin American street, where language like “U.S. imperialism” suddenly has currency again. One is the past: Latin Americans have too many vivid and bitter memories of U.S. intervention in their countries—operations that sometimes included brazen assassinations —which is why the Bush Administration got burned by accusations it backed a failed coup against Chavez in 2002. Another is democratic legitimacy: Chavez, for all his authoritarian tendencies, is a democratically elected head of state who last year won a national recall referendum approved by international observers.
Perhaps an even more important factor is populist backing: leftism is on the rise again in Latin America for a reason, namely the burgeoning feeling around the region that a decade of U.S.-backed capitalist reforms has simply widened an already epic gap between rich and poor—and that the Bush Administration is indifferent to it. As Chavez uses his multi-billion-dollar oil revenues to fund the kind of social projects that Venezuela’s legions of impoverished never saw from his kleptocratic predecessors—and to subsidize cheaper oil for his cash-strapped Latin neighbors—more people are willing to defend him, as most Latin leaders did last spring when Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice toured South America.
As a result, any cold war-style talk about “taking Chavez out” with “covert operatives,” as Robertson suggested, just confers more Che Guevara cachet on the former army lieutenant colonel (who himself led a failed coup in 1992). And since Chavez has threatened to cut off oil exports to the U.S. at the first sign of gringo aggression, it makes America’s important Venezuelan oil supply look all the more volatile.