There’s some active discussion on Newsarama over the upcoming Spidey crossover that’s going to intersect with the launch of “Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man.” I posted a response which I think might be useful here as well–
Guys…it’s real simple:
1) It’s a way of doing a crossover story in which writers don’t feel like they’re doing bits and pieces; (2) readers who prefer particular writers can read a month of their stories in a row rather than piecemeal chapters; (3) regular readers of the respective books will be exposed to writers and might–with any luck–like what they see and check out those writers on their own regular, respective titles.
My first month of stories will essentially be one complete tale. FNSM is told from Peter’s POV, MK will be from MJ’s POV, and the third will focus on Aunt May. The main storyline will be resolved by Part 3, which will be in ASM. Now…will it have elements that tie into a larger crossover? Yes. One would hope they’ll be interesting enough to prompt readers to continue reading the full arc. But if not, you’ll still have a complete story, soup to nuts, just as if I were doing a three parter in FNSM. The only difference is that you’ll get it in one month rather than three. I would like to think that’s a good thing. But if you guys think that’s a bad thing and don’t want to read them, well…okay. I think that’s kind of unfortunate, but it’s your call.
PAD
• 
What this crossover thing screams to me is:
1) wait for the collections
2) start reading FNSM three months later after the crossover is done
Diana: I don’t think my opinion on crossovers really matters. I may have liked hëll, I don’t know, Secret Wars II, for example. Does that mean YOU or anyone else should buy it? Nope. Does your opinion that every Marvel crossover in the last 5 years sucked? Not to me.
The point is, why lambaste a project before: 1) it’s even come out and you’ve had a chance to read it and 2) just because it’s a crossover (which, according to all press releases *I’VE* seen) it’s not. It’s 3 mini arcs over 3 different books in a month. You can take ’em or leave ’em. Read one not the other two, whatever.
“So, if somebody goes and buys #1, and then they see that you’re not on #2, and they’re buying it because your name is on the cover, should it surprise you if they are no longer interested?”
That wouldn’t surprise me, no. What surprises me is people who say they’re fans of my work who are now planning to skip issue #1 or even THE ENTIRE SERIES despite the fact that my name will be on the cover of every issue but 2 and 3.
“Well, I’d like to think that if people buy #1, but not #s 2 and 3, and then come back for #4, whatever marketing brains at Marvel would be able to attribute that to “lack of PADness”.”
Yes, except…no. Here’s the potential scenario: Retailers order strongly on issue #1. Issues 2 and 3 then drop like rocks. Retailers promptly start cutting their orders. Issue #4 now sells lower than issue #3. By the time retailers get around to course-correcting, Marvel either cancels the series or assigns a “more popular” writer.
In the meantime, I keep thinking about all the fans who stated that what “Fallen Angel” needed to survive was crossovers with DCU books and I”m just left shaking my head.
PAD
In the meantime, I keep thinking about all the fans who stated that what “Fallen Angel” needed to survive was crossovers with DCU books and I”m just left shaking my head.
PAD
with all due respect Peter, I think most of the requests were not for crossovers of this (FNSM) magnitude, but rather just a guest-appearance in order to place Fallen Angel within the DC universe, and hopefully get the book more visibility. At least, that’s how I interpreted it.
Like I stated above, I’ll pick up the books to show my support where you’re concerned. But to play devil’s advocate, I don’t entirely disagree with the people who are hemming and hawing. Most people nowadays are watching every dollar. Comics aren’t as cheap as they used to be (nothing is, I guess). Every “new” book that’s picked up often means one has to get dropped. I don’t think you can begrudge people who are concerned about having to pick up an extra 6 (?) books when all they really wanted was to read some PAD spidey (with some kickass ‘Ringo artwork accompanying).
From a business perspective, I understand trying to cross-promote and get people to at least try a title they might not otherwise have picked up. But from a reader’s perspective, it can feel like I’m being ‘forced’ to buy a title (or titles) that I ordinarly would not have.
I do hope that you try and see it from ‘our’ perspective. It’s not a lack of support for you. Picking up a new PAD written Spidey (a PAD written anything, for that matter), is a no-brainer for me. Picking up a new PAD written Spidey that’s going to try and squeeze a few extra bucks out of my pocket by crossing over into other titles with other writers doesn’t stop me from buying…but I’m admittedly less enthusiastic :\
It should be expected that comic fans are at least a little obsessive about their hobby. So, there will always be an all-or-nothing mentality. If I only want 3 parts of a 9 part crossover, then I’d really rather not bother. If I don’t want the first 3 issues of a new series that otherwise interests me, then my interest has waned to the point that I may not pick it up at all. Having 2 of the first 3 issues of a series be fill-ins is not a smart way to launch a series that is riding on the popularity of its creators.
I’m adding my name to the list of people who think it’s unreasonable for fans to swear off FNSM just because of the crossover with two other writers taking place in #2 and 3. If you buy for the writer, buy the pieces you like and ignore those you don’t. If you get your comics through a subscription service, it may be a little more difficult to coordinate things, but not impossible (Anyone use Previews? Probably best bet.). If you follow books by full runs rather than just personal tastes, I’m sorry, that’s outmoded thinking (or is it OCD?–you decide:-D). Nobody’s forcing you to buy the parts of the crossover not written by PAD but you.
I do think it would’ve been a better plan, seeing how this is really three separate but interlocking stories by three different writers, to have each title carry their own story. The problem with coordinating things such as the current plan indicates is that there are people who read comics with a completist mentality, that if they miss one issue because it’s not what they want, it’s the end of the world, and why should they collect that book at all, so why start?
As for why I don’t like JMS’ ASM personally–he offended me with his sensibilities. The animal totem idea is so hokey, even though the first arc was VERY good (Vs. Morlun, etc.). Contrary to what people are posting on here, I think it’s been shown quite conclusively that Peter’s origin IS now mystical in nature, as shown by the empirical evidence of the nature of the beings who’ve come after him since–Morlun, Shathra, et al. And then, just when I thought the totem-type stories had run their course and JMS would go for straighter Spidey stories–poof, “Sins Past” comes along and demolishes my faith in JMS as a writer because of its inane blend of completely slipshod continuity, distasteful realism (blatant textual, not subtextual, sexual jealousy vis-a-vis Peter & Norman), and bad sci-fi cliches (rapidly aging ninja kids). JMS has this pattern of taking past events and putting his own salacious and unnecessary twists on said events (those being the origin of Spidey and the death of Gwen Stacy–each with the happenstance of said events drained away and replaced by conspiracy and design). And then, on his newsgroup, he berated fans in a way I thought completely unprofessional, no matter if their commentaries were wrongheaded or insightful. (Would you ever catch Stephen King taking potshots at his fans?) I got turned off to the man’s writing for the last time with “Sins” making me so angry, for many reasons, I quit ASM and haven’t looked back. Never in my many years of reading comics have I been that outright offended (I think I know now how some people must’ve felt during the Clone Saga…which I personally loved). I thought JMS, who I’m told did great things in his own universes (B5), would be able to do something groundbreaking without treading on the past so brazenly. To me, the work is cliche and nothing special, in plot and script, and with “Sins,” offensive for a multitude of reasons.
So, that’s me. But if PAD likes the idea behind this new crossover well enough to go along with it and write a piece of it, then his word makes me consider the remote possibility of picking up more than just his own 3-parter in October.
~G.
“If you follow books by full runs rather than just personal tastes, I’m sorry, that’s outmoded thinking…”
The creative team could have just teamed up on Spectacular Spider-man after Jenkins left. But this new Spidey title was supposed to be PAD & Ringo’s “fun” Spidey book. How do you differentiate a title from its brethren when the writers of the 2nd and 3rd issues are Straczinski and Hudlin? So, it becomes just another Spidey title, for 3 months at least.
Compare the interest in All-Star Superman to what it would have been if Morrison and Quitely had instead contracted to do 12 issues between the 3 Superman titles, crossing over with Verheiden and Rucka issues.
Just for the record, I’d probably be a lot more concerned about the mixed reactions if I thought that the internet was remotely representative of the buying public at large.
I mean, fans bìŧçhëd incessantly about Bruce Jones’ Hulk while sales continued to go up and up. The sales eventually went down (as all things that go up always do) but on-line fans were crabbing about it for several years before it had a sales impact. And lo, the on-line fans kept saying, “Bring back PAD.” Which Marvel did. And what was the sales reaction? Bruce Jones numbers or lower. Certainly not measurably higher.
All I can tell you is that, to this observer, giving fans what they want is no guarantee of success, while that which the fans complain about the most, sells the best. Which means this could be a potential spectacular Spider-hit. Or course, with my luck, this’ll be the exception…
PAD
PAD, quick q. Do you have any idea if Bendis is going to add an issue of the Pulse into this Spidey-event?
Just for the record, I’d probably be a lot more concerned about the mixed reactions if I thought that the internet was remotely representative of the buying public at large.
(snip)
PAD
I don’t disagree with that at all. The reaction I’ve seen on newsarama and one other comic forum regarding Liefeld on 2 issues of Teen Titans has been overwhelmingly negative…probably in the neighborhood of 90%/10% (hate it/don’t hate it), if not higher. But for whatever bizarre reason, I’m sure it will outsell all previous issues of the current series.
and FWIW, I’m sorry (and a bit surprised) to hear that the Hulk numbers haven’t eclipsed the numbers on Jones’ run. Nothing against Mr. Jones, but I didn’t care for his Hulk. I continue to be thrilled that you’re back on the title. Guess I thought there would be a more significant # of other people out there who felt the same way.
Curious now that I’m thinking about it. I think that right now, DC is doing some amazing things. That sentiment also seems to be echoed on some online forums. Do you think the Hulk figures might be more due to people moving from Marvel books to DC books in general than they do Bruce Jones Hulk vs PAD Hulk?
I think the reason a lot of people are skittish about a Spider-Crossover is that they fear a return to the Spidey-books of the 90s, where they might as well have made the series a weekly book called “The Web of Peter Parker: The Amazing, Spectacular, Sensational Spider-Man Unlimited.” After “Maximum Carnage” it became increasingly difficult to follow one or two Spider-books while ignoring the others.
Currently, the Spider-books are fairly self-contained. One can read Amazing from month-to-month without needing to know what happened in MK Spidey. I think it’s a fear that the book will return to it’s multi-issue semiweekly megaseries ways that might have some people’s panties in a bunch.
Personally, my only added expense will be 3 issues of MK. Compared to keeping up with “House of M” or “Countdown to Infinite Crisis”, the cost of “The Other” is chicken feed (if chicken feed costs between nine and eighteen bucks these days).
As for “Fallen Angel”, personally I was in the “This should be a Vertigo book” camp. Seriously, the lady who used to live next door to me would buy every and any Vertigo book just because of the indica in the corner. While it might not be as true as it was in the days when Sandman was in its heyday, there are still people who tend to buy things based merely on the brand name. I think the ones who wanted tons of DC crossovers really wanted Lee to “lose the dye job” and wear an “S” on her chest.
“Contrary to what people are posting on here, I think it’s been shown quite conclusively that Peter’s origin IS now mystical in nature, as shown by the empirical evidence of the nature of the beings who’ve come after him since–Morlun, Shathra, et al.”
Actually, Gary (may I call you Gary?), I think that has to do with other beings buying into Ezekiel’s notion, more than whether or not it’s true. IIRC, the whole Shathra thing had to do with Peter using Doc Strange to help with something or other, and this “wasp-totem” spotting him and thinking, due to its own nature, that the “spider-totem” was the only possible explanation (kind of like Ezekiel’s assumption, based on his own experiences). It still could have been total accident, and a series of egregious assumptions on the parts of various mystic entities…
…not that people in the real world ever make egregious assumptions about things based on their own limited experiences, right? 🙂
PAD:
I was a huge Marvel fanboy 15 years ago. I had a total all-or-nothing approach, comparable to what others here are talking about. I had to buy Speedball to make sure there was no essential canon that would I miss, or else I couldn’t possibly enjoy the latest issue of Darkhawk, not that I enjoyed either series. I widdled it down to Spidey books and X-books, and eventually just cut off comics entirely. I felt like that some of the assorted folk writing them had no more right to determine canon than, say, me. Present company excluded by leaps and bounds.
Ten years later, I cautiously came back to the fold, focusing on authors and quality stories as opposed to characters and canon. I started off mainly reading closed stories, Vertigo type stuff, but will go for the occasional author run on a series that I felt I could 100% enjoy without reading anything but that series. I think of Alan Moore as the best example of being able to write within canon, but not make me feel like I’m missing anything. Looking at books like the Swamp Thing run, even with an issue dealing with Crisis mishigas thrown into the mix, you never feel like you’re missing anything by only reading that series. The problem is, growing up an all-or-nothing fanboy, even if I don’t care now, part of me feels like I’m missing something important when a crossover is going on. For me, the focus right now is all about finding a given author and totally sticking with the closed story.
So, as a fan of yours both in the past and present, I would jump at the idea of adding a run of Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man written by you to my elitist trade paperback shelf. However, knowing that your run is complicated by a crossover with other books, it’s a huge turnoff. The Morrison run on X-Men is a great example of something I like, since even though it’s dealing with the most crossover-happy set of characters ever, it’s an insular story by a quality writer. The Morrison run on JLA, however, fails in the same regard by having a few too many crossover problems. For me, this is mostly about some snobbist purity in only wanting to have to read stuff by quality authors. But there’s also the completist in there, who doesn’t know if he would enjoy a series if he skipped issues #2 and 3. So, whether or not to get involved becomes a conundrum.
In essence, comics for me now are 100% about the author, with the characters and canon coming second. So, any “series” involving an author in whom I have no interest become much less appealing. Others have said variants on all this, but… I felt like talking.
Best,
Josh
Jonathan–
Point well taken. I guess I’m laboring under the unwritten rule that says “If it waddles like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it’s a duck.” In other words, why are these cosmic entities after Peter? They obviously operate at some level beyond our ken, whether result of heightened intellect or instinct that should enable them to pick out who among humanity is possessed of such totemistic abilities, i.e. said forces have some kind of built-in detector that leads them right to Spidey–their very own variant of spider-sense. Granted that idea, the chances are substantially heightened that Peter IS what those forces out to destroy him think he is, and substantially lessened that he isn’t. Sounds logical to me, but it may not to you.
I guess now the operative question is, regardless of why these things are chasing Peter, is he supposed to be “the one” or is Peter just some schmuck who inadvertently inherited said spider-abilities? Which is where “The Other” probably comes in.
Hmm, maybe a better title for the story would be “The Chosen One”…
~G.
What brought me to Spider-Man was the movies and the news that JMS brought Peter and Mary Jane back together. I decided to start with the trade paperbacks and because I enjoyed that Spider-Man so much, I stayed with it.
Because I like your work, PAD, I will get a step further and buy FNSM from the beginning but I won`t support these crossover gimmicks Marvel is starting again. Having one JMS issue among FNSM is even fine with me, I guess it will appear in the trades I am still buying later. I don`t know Hudlin`s work but, ok, even if there is one issue I am not fond of, I can live with that.
I am subscribing my comics and it just makes it easier if I am just sticking with FNSM instead of telling him to skip the Hudlin issue. With my luck, he would mess it up and skip something else instead.
If I will stay with FNSM in the long run will also depend on it how stand alone the series will be afterwards. If I will get the feeling that I can`t enjoy the series on its own, I will drop it.
Concerning Fallen Angel: I am one of the fans who have zero interest in the DC universe and I read Fallen Angel because it stands on its own. I most definitely don`t want that to change!
Some thoughts:
I was one of the readers who quit buying the Bruce Jones Hulk, and asked for PAD back. When PAD came back, his first story was a five parter that included lots of characters acting out of character, because they weren’t really those characters, just simulacra. Not a strong start, not entertaining, and after spending more than $10 for a story that I liked extremely little of, I’m not willing to continue.
re: Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man – bad name for a book being launched with a batch of crossovers. It definitely doesn’t sound new (or returning) reader friendly.
PAD, I notice a lot of people expressing concern about JMS elements entering your book, which led me to wonder… what did you think of Sins Past? Specifically, Gwen Stacy shacking up with Norman Osborn?
Also, what’s it like working with JMS again, this time in a medium you have more experience in?
Three PAD Spider-Man books in one month is awesome. Two months without a PAD Spider-Man book, not so great. I will most likely get the whole crossover anyway.
I get that it will be from three different points of view, and I think that is pretty cool, but is there allot of collaboration/limitations on the story or was is more of a pass the torch thing. Will you have anything to do with the books after your books?
Looking forward to it.
Honestly, that is such a slap in the face.
PAD, you pretend that it’s *our* fault for not liking the idea and I know, I deep down know, you realize it’s a crummy way to begin a series.
Just awful.
“Nothing against Mr. Jones, but I didn’t care for his Hulk. I continue to be thrilled that you’re back on the title. Guess I thought there would be a more significant # of other people out there who felt the same way.”
On the net, yes. In the “real” world, not so much.
“Curious now that I’m thinking about it. I think that right now, DC is doing some amazing things. That sentiment also seems to be echoed on some online forums. Do you think the Hulk figures might be more due to people moving from Marvel books to DC books in general than they do Bruce Jones Hulk vs PAD Hulk?”
Dunno. What I do know is that the price went up .75 cents, so although our numbers are the same, we’re still bringing in more money. But people only seem to focus on the units sold.
“Honestly, that is such a slap in the face.”
Huh? What? Where? Who did I slap? Considering I’m seeing fan after fan announcing that they’re bailing without having read word one, I think I’m being consistently civil.
“PAD, you pretend that it’s *our* fault for not liking the idea and I know, I deep down know, you realize it’s a crummy way to begin a series.”
I wasn’t aware I was assigning blame. For that matter, I’m not sure what the hëll you’re talking about. Whose “fault” are your opinions supposed to be other than your own? I don’t think it’s MY fault if some people don’t like the idea. Frankly, I don’t know what definition of the word “fault” applies to any of this.
“A crummy way to begin a series?” And you know that I know this because you’ve got a little office set up in my head or something? Okay, now you’re just pìššìņg me off. How about this for a crummy way to begin a series: Retailers lowball their numbers, just as they did on “Hulk,” just as they did on “Madrox.” Fans of ASM figure they can pass on it because they’re already reading the “main” Spider-Man title. Fans of ASM and MKSM figure they’re already reading two Spidey books, and that’s enough, especially since it’s only being written by Peter David and not some hot new writer. Boom, swish. Book debuts maybe, maybe in the top fifty, and then quickly drops out of it. And while on-line fans loudly proclaim that it’s the best written Spidey book out there and that they hate ASM, ASM’s sales continue strong while FNSM is roundly ignored. End of book, and it’s a cold day in hëll before Marvel gives me any major assignments again.
So how about you excuse the hëll out of me for not exactly trusting normal ordering patterns to be supportive of either me or my work. I am sick to freaking God of reviews that say, “Wow, this is some of Peter David’s best work ever; too bad no one’s reading it.” I’ve played it your way for years now and it’s gotten me acclaimed critically and kicked in the teeth sales wise. So don’t you DARE be telling me what I believe deep down. I have no idea what’s going to work in terms of getting more people to sample my work, but I sure know what hasn’t been working: Simple quality.
So if this crossover thing establishes FNSM as a book that should be considered as integral to the saga of Spider-Man as the other books, I say “great.” And if it gets people who wouldn’t give my work the time of day to read a story with my name on it and say, “Hey, I gotta check out his Spidey title,” also great. And if it turns off people who are already fans of mine and feel ill-used, I’m sorry about that, but the harsh fact is that there simply aren’t enough of you to count on making my work a marketplace success. So we do what we gotta do, and at this point I’m perfectly willing to give this a try.
And don’t you EVER tell me that you know what I’m thinking, as if I’m just blowing smoke up your ášš. Because THAT, sir, is a genuine slap in the face.
PAD
Well, here’s one person who is actually now buying comics again now that Peter’s back on the Hulk (ok, so it was actually the return of Hal Jordan that got me back in the comic shop, but I’m still buying the Hulk, dammit).
And by the by, I thought “Dear Tricia” was fantastic.
The self-pity wears thin, Mr. David. You’re not the only writer out there whose sales are disproportionate to the quality of his writing. Your series aren’t the only critical darlings axed because the zombies of the mainstream were too busy reading brainless commercial tripe.
I know it’s somewhat naive of me to expect professionals to deprioritize the Almighty Dollar – God knows it’s the only language Marvel’s administration speaks – but it’s still disappointing to see a writer choose sales over the readers who’ve stuck by him for years.
Peter David: “What surprises me is people who say they’re fans of my work who are now planning to skip issue #1 or even THE ENTIRE SERIES despite the fact that my name will be on the cover of every issue but 2 and 3.”
I wouldn’t skip the entire series, but the reason I might skip #1 is that I’m not particularly inclined to just buy part 1 of 12. I know I can use the money I would have used to buy #2 and #3 to buy the relevant ASM and MKSM issues that month, but I also don’t feel inclined to just read parts 1, 2, and 3 of 12 without reading the resolution. Better to just skip the whole thing and start fresh with #4. If the crossover thing turns out to be worth reading people will talk it up and I will look for the collections.
“The self-pity wears thin, Mr. David.”
I was merely stating cold, hard fact based on current ordering practices. Fan condemnation of announced projects before a single word is read or image is drawn, however, does tend to wear thin. But what can one do?
“You’re not the only writer out there whose sales are disproportionate to the quality of his writing.”
Didn’t say I was.
“Your series aren’t the only critical darlings axed because the zombies of the mainstream were too busy reading brainless commercial tripe.”
Didn’t say they were.
“I know it’s somewhat naive of me to expect professionals to deprioritize the Almighty Dollar – God knows it’s the only language Marvel’s administration speaks – but it’s still disappointing to see a writer choose sales over the readers who’ve stuck by him for years.”
And I could just as easily say that readers choose to prioritize the Almighty Dollar over a writer whose work they’ve enjoyed, especially when readers make no secret of announcing they’ll stop reading a comic of mine if the price goes up by one almighty dollar. Except I didn’t say that. Then again, I didn’t say any of the other stuff you appear to believe I said, so you have to appreciate the consistency if nothing else.
It does take some odd kind of logic, though, to believe that “readers” and “sales” must somehow be mutually exclusive. What, if I willingly participate in a storytelling exercise that could potentially garner me some new readers (plus, God forbid, might actually be fun for me since I get to work with other writers whose work Ilike), I’ve failed to live up to your expectations of me?
Here’s a newsflash: One of the major reasons I wrote the “Spike” one shot was to get my name in front of the Buffy fans who never heard of me, but might now become interested in other projects of mine such as “Fallen Angel.” Does that lower me in your eyes somehow? Are my motives insufficiently pure for you?
Please. I’ve sacrificed nothing and no one, and prioritized no one thing over another. I’m simply being open to an undertaking that might help keep my career going. That’s not self-pity; that’s just reality. And if you’ve got problems with reality, then that’s your look-out, not mine.
PAD
Just keep doing what you’re doing, PAD. We’ll be there. I just added Hulk, waiting for new Fallen Angel and will sure as hëll pick up Spidey (haven’t since the clone thing).
P.S. Any comments on the portrayal of Genis in New Thunderbolts? It’s a nicely written book, but I’m fond of the direction the character is going.
Take a look across the street, DC’s ENTIRE LINE will be a ‘crossover’ for the next six months, with most titles not directly revealing how they are actually connected.
Nightwing has a been crossover logo, but nobody in the industry or outside of it can tell you how it relates to anything.
I’m not going to lose any sleep over a 3 part PAD story launch month, and 2 issues of ‘lesser talent working on PAD’s book’-I survived a crappy larsen aquaman and a lackluster hulk reboot.
I think I can handle 2 non-PAD issues of FNSM, if anything it might drive home a few points.
PAD:
1) Allow me to add my voice to those on this posting who have become completely allergic to crossovers (as well as “Event” comics, of which this is not an example). Loved them back in the days of Stan and Rascally Roy. But having been burnt so many times in the last 25 years, I now avoid them like the plague. Crossovers and Event-crossovers become one more reason for me to consider dropping a title.
2) Your bitterness over the fate of FALLEN ANGEL is palbable. I am very sorry that this title did not achieve success when you (and many critics) feel it represented some of your best work. But perhaps the reason I dropped the book after 4 issues is also the reason for it’s lack of sales success: It was just not what I have come to expect when I pick up a comic written by Peter David. I associate your name in comics (including those based upon other media) with thorough knowledge of a pre-existing character and their universe, clever and witty dialogue and a wonderful sense of humor. None of these existed in the issues of FA that I read, which, I think, was your deliberate intention. I was faced with a bunch of new characters, all of whom I found unsympathetic. I just decided it was not “my cup of tea”, and stopped purchasing it. Perhaps I did, indeed, miss one of your best works and will come to regret it if I ever read a collection, but I believe that my reasoning may be more widespread. It is the same reason that, for example, I have yet to see either SCHINDLER’S LIST or SAVING PRIVATE RYAN. Both works are said to be among the director’s finest, but they are just not what I associate with Steven Spielberg AND they are not the type of film I usually enjoy. (In fact, the only reason I will someday see them is because they are works by Spielberg.)
LL
“But perhaps the reason I dropped the book after 4 issues is also the reason for it’s lack of sales success: It was just not what I have come to expect when I pick up a comic written by Peter David. I associate your name in comics (including those based upon other media) with thorough knowledge of a pre-existing character and their universe, clever and witty dialogue and a wonderful sense of humor.”
Fair enough. However, readers have this funny habit when they believe they know what to associate a particular writer with: Sooner or later they get bored and wander away. My intention with “Fallen Angel” was to confound expectations because, to paraphrase Woody Allen, A writing career is like a shark. You have to keep moving or you’re dead.
My frustration doesn’t stem from people who tried it and didn’t like it. You can’t please everybody. My frustration stems from lack of awareness. I’ve mentioned it before, but I’ll say it again: At last year’s San Diego Con, I had a steady stream of people coming up to me at signings telling me they read everything I write. And I would say to them, “Do you read ‘Fallen Angel?’ And I kept count: Nine out of ten people stared at me blankly and said, “What’s that?” The book had been coming out for a year and they’d never heard of it. And I’ll wager they couldn’t even find it on the stands because their retailers ordered no store copies. THAT’S where the frustration comes from.
PAD
See, Lon, this is something else that has been pointed up in previous discussions of comicdom. For every fan who says, “Hey, you’re just rehashing old stuff – how about something new?”, there’s at least one who feels as you do – that they associate a certain product with a certain writer, and are disappointed if that writer fails to produce what is expected.
Personally, I understand PAD’s annoyance here. He’s trying to make a living doing what he loves. There’s no sign that the quality of his work is going to suffer for what some deem a “gimmick”. And, perhaps most importantly, this isn’t going to be one of those year-long megacrossovers, where to get the whole story you have to buy every single title the publisher puts out. No, the extra expense here is a grand total of two issues of two other titles (that is to say, four books) about the same character. If that’s still too steep for you, start with #4, and avoid the whole thing. My POV is that a movie will run me $10 per person going (generally meaning I’m shelling out $20-30 for a two-hour one-time experience), getting HBO on my cable would run me, with the special offer they’ve got now, $10/month for six months (and going up after that) – hëll, even a medium-size caramel frappuchino down at the Starbucks will set me back $5. The cost of these extra comics, IIRC (been a while since I bought, but I seem to recall the cover price being around $3), should come to about $12 and tax, spread over two months – for something I can enjoy as often as I’d like.
What’s all the bìŧçhìņg about? Gads, you’d think folks here were being required to take out a second mortgage just to catch the beginning of a title!!
My one and only comment on this matter: What a bunch of bìŧçhÿ cheapskates… with fans like these, who needs X-Ray?
You’ve got my support, PAD.
StaR
At last year’s San Diego Con,
Speaking of, PAD, will you be at this year’s Comic-Con?
I thought I spotted your name on something for Thursday, but I’d have to go back and check. Plus, I’d need to confirm its you anyways – with a name like “Peter David”, it isn’t impossible for it to be somebody else. 🙂
Oh, I’m going to get beat down, but you know, I happen to like the JMS stuff on ASM; it probably helps that while I’ve read comics for years, I’ve only been reading Spiderman for roughly the last five years. For example, the whole Gwen Stacy story isn’t something I consider sacred, as it happened, what, 25 years ago? Unless I’m mistaken, what PAD’s doing with this initial-writer-crossover-thing-to-start-a-new-book-event is something new, so maybe, just maybe, it’ll be the next best thing.
And really folks, being an artist and desiring to make money doing something you love aren’t mutually exclusive or bad. Jumping to conclusions based on sketchy information about a work that’s not even printed yet on the other hand…
“what did you think of Sins Past? Specifically, Gwen Stacy shacking up with Norman Osborn?”
Hmm… wrong question, huh? 🙂
Well, since I’m alreading reading AMSM and MKSM, I will definitely be reading this crossover. As for JMS, I am a big fan. Supreme Power is great and his Spidey is as good if not better than any of the others. I am just as big a fan of PAD, so with those two working together on a crossover, I can certainly be counted in. As far as MKSpidey, while Hudlin’s dialogue is not very strong, the book itself is a fun read in its own lighthearted way. Plus, he is bringing back the emphasis on the scientific mind of Peter which has been put on the backburner for so long. I think characters like Spidey are more suited to his style as opposed to characters with serious personalities like Black Panther (though I read his BP because I like the character and the story is interesting).
Well, for what it’s worth (and as you detailed, internet sentiments don’t necessarily correlate to sales figures at all; so I suppose this is worth three comic book sales), I’ll be buying your three Spider-Man [Here’s your “beatdown”, Jason – learn how to spell the name!!! ;)] issues, PAD. I can see why some people are dreading the thought of a crossover – some of them have been godawful and largely pointless – but I’m not ruling out the possibility of buying the other issues, either. I’ll wait and see if there’s more I want to learn after your story or if I’m satisfied with just reading your three-parter, and if the other stories look decent – when they come out (a novel concept, apparently …).
I can see why doing this at the very start of the series concerns some people; but your reasoning about why this could attract extra readers, from the beginning of the title, also makes sense. And if I’ve ever wondered if I was compulsive – well, _I_’ve never felt that missing one or two issues in a series meant that I couldn’t buy ANYTHING from that series – sheesh. This idea is kind of like “Kraven’s Last Hunt,” actually – one story carried over all of the Spider titles – for six issues, in that case – all written by J.M. DeMatteis (and followed, iirc, by a three-part story across the titles by Ann Nocenti). Maybe people should assume that this could be of that quality rather than automatically lumping it in with the worst of crossover dreck.
Frankly, with the politics and problems of getting and maintaining comics titles in this age, combined with your great success in novels – your own concepts, Star Trek, film novelizations – I won’t blame you, PAD, if someday you decide this industry just isn’t worth the aggrivation anymore.
Happily reading ’til you reach that point,
Luke Walsh
“Sins Past.” Huh. How to put this…
I thought the story was well-written, as I would expect of Joe. Well put together, pretty powerful. If you’re going to do it, then you darn well better to a hëll of a job with it, and Joe did that.
Personally, I wouldn’t have done it. My reasoning would have been, who am I writing this story for? The long time fans? They’ll just get pìššëd øff. What’s to be gained by soiling Gwen’s memory? The more recent fans? They don’t know the original Gwen, don’t know her history with Peter. So they lack any real context for the story as a whole, and it loses its impact.
There’s times I’ve written stories that I knew would piss people off. The story in which the Hulk refuses to give Jim Wilson a blood transfusion and he dies of AIDS comes to mind. Heck, I knew even “Tempest Fugit” would put some people off because it was so different from anything I’d done on my previous run. But I felt strongly about it and went ahead, and you just deal with the fallout. In this case, Joe obviously felt strongly enough about this story to withstand the Gwen-lover brickbats. If he felt that strongly about it, then he was right to write it.
PAD
As for JMS, I am a big fan. Supreme Power is great and his Spidey is as good if not better than any of the others.
I like JMS on his own creations, like Supreme Power and Midnight Nation… but sometimes when he does established characters like Spidey, it feels like he’s trying shoehorn ideas in that don’t quite fit the character.
The more recent fans? They don’t know the original Gwen, don’t know her history with Peter. So they lack any real context for the story as a whole, and it loses its impact.
This is how I felt. I didn’t really see what it added to the mythos, and to a lot of us, Gwen Stacy represent the “age of innocence”.
Interestingly, JMS recently revealed that his original idea was for the kids to be the product of Gwen’s first time with Peter, and that she simply kept the pregnancy secret from him. But Marvel nixed that. I can understand why they wouldn’t want Peter to have kids… but gosh, anything would have been better than Norman Osborn. I mean, he’s always come across as so repulsive and creepy, I just can’t buy Gwen ever being attracted to him.
Ðámņ, people catch the smallest things around here. Ok, I’ll take my beating and just say “Spidey” from here on out…
I was one of the folks who was initially pretty ticked to hear about the crossover. I’m starting to soften on it. But I never doubted for a second that it would be a HUGE boon for sales. And a hit PAD comic would mean other PAD comics, which is a good thing… if one likes comics by PAD (as I do).
Ðámņ, people catch the smallest things around here. Ok, I’ll take my beating and just say “Spidey” from here on out…
There should be a comma between ‘say,’ and, ‘Spidey.’
To me, “Sins Past” is one of the most powerful comic stories I have ever read. It is very dramatic and very touching. I also think, it is very believable. I could understand the motivations so well, this is what made the story moving and tragic.
I got the trade paperback with that story after I already read a lot of comments. Maybe I have some advantage here because I started reading JMS story without the emotional attachments long term Spider-Man fans have. From reading the story, I saw a woman who was very sensitive, very likeable and very vulnerable who made a mistake that is unfortunately not uncommon. She most definitely was not a fallen saint and also not someone JMS turned into a “šlûŧ” or “whørë” (which are comments I have actually seen). I also think that after she made her mistake, she picked herself up and has shown a remarkable amount of strength dealing with it and also with the resulting responsibilities.
I don`t like the idea of seeing Gwen as a kind of innocent saint. JMS turned her into a three dimensional character I find much more interesting and I am definitely hoping that JMS will continue this storyline.
BBayliss….
It’s hilarious to me that people are assuming this crossover will suck dirt and have decided to not buy PAD’s new book before it’s even out.
Re: My expectations of the crossover’s quality
I already know without a shadow of a doubt that the work of the other writers involved doesn’t interest or entertain me. Never has…doubt it ever will. With that in mind, I don’t see why I should expect any different from their contributions to this story.
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PAD….
That wouldn’t surprise me, no. What surprises me is people who say they’re fans of my work who are now planning to skip issue #1 or even THE ENTIRE SERIES despite the fact that my name will be on the cover of every issue but 2 and 3.
As stated earlier, I just don’t see the point in buying/reading chapter 1 (or chapters 1-3) when I know I won’t be buying/reading chapters 4-9. I don’t make a habit of ripping out the final two-thirds of a novel before I sit down to start reading. I don’t make a habit of taping the first third of a tv show and ignoring the rest.
However, also as I stated earlier, I’m still on the fence about FNSM #1 (and, for that matter, your other two entries that month). The PAD completist in me may indeed win out. ‘Course, if it does, I’ll probably never actually read those issues. For the reason, see the paragraph above. I can say with certainty that I won’t be picking up FNSM #’s 2 & 3. But then, even as a die-hard Titans fan, I won’t be picking up the two Liefeld issues, either. (I’d rather have gaps in my collection than support Liefeld with even a penny of my money.)
Yes, except…no. Here’s the potential scenario: Retailers order strongly on issue #1. Issues 2 and 3 then drop like rocks. Retailers promptly start cutting their orders. Issue #4 now sells lower than issue #3. By the time retailers get around to course-correcting, Marvel either cancels the series or assigns a “more popular” writer.
Well, FNSM is already on my pull list at the store. I don’t plan on removing it. But, I will be putting #’s 2 & 3 back on the shelf.
And, for what little it’s worth…who’s the editor of FNSM and does Marvel editorial & managerial staff still attribute more weight to a snail-mail letter or does an e-mail now carry equal weight? (As I’ve understood it, for quite some time, even a tiny extra bit of credibility was given to a snail-mail letter, as the writer took the time to write it, address it, put a stamp on it and mail it, as opposed to the relative instant ease of an e-mail.) It may not count for much in the big picture, but I’ll gladly contact the editor and Quesada in either format (or both) to explain to them why they won’t be getting my few bucks for those issues.
From reading the story, I saw a woman who was very sensitive, very likeable and very vulnerable who made a mistake that is unfortunately not uncommon.
Having sex with her best friend’s dad? Geez, I’d hope that’s not TOO common…
Ultimately, what made it a bad story in my eyes is who the characters are. Norman Osborn had been well-documented (even by those who didn’t know him as the Goblin) as a mean, greedy, ruthless person… with a bad haircut to boot. Imagine Ðìçk Cheney as a supervillain (okay, maybe you don’t have to imagine). Based on Gwen’s character, her hopping in the sack with him, even as a “mistake” is just ultra-far-fetched. Hopping in the sack with Harry while she was in a relationship with Peter would be a mistake. Hopping in the sack with Norman is just a whole ‘nother Jerry Springer level.
“…it’s still disappointing to see a writer choose sales over the readers who’ve stuck by him for years.”
How are they going to stick by him if he isn’t given any titles to write for his fans to follow?
Gimmicks, “events”, and superstar creators are a necessary evil to keep a book’s numbers up. A new #1 Spidey title will obviously fare better than most, but unforunately, PAD doesn’t have the celebrity status (which comes from where exactly, anyway? Wizard?) to ensure a hit that someone like Millar had for his MKSM launch.
1
I know that internet reaction doesn’t equal sales, But you make us sound like fair weather friends for not wanting to pick up books by writers we don’t enjoy.
I understand starting a new book as a part of a crossover is supposed to get the guys already buying the other two books to buy yours too.
Good job.
But we’ve had time to decide whether we like their Spidy books or not.
Do you read books buy authors you don’t like because you don’t want to be one of those guys who “decide they don’t like a story before it’s written”?
So I’m sorry if sales figures drop for 2 and 3 (like we have that kind of influence or numbers), But I don’t want to read a Spidy comic by either of the other writers.
I will look out for the other books that month written by you. Hope ASM is on schedule.
I’m sure the main reason Marvels stayed away from crossovers the last few years has been the fact they couldn’t even keep one book out on time to match another books ship date.
Wasn’t there supposed to be an Exiles/X-Men crossover that ended up being printed all in one title for that reason?
On a related note, Isn’t Marvel Knights a different universe from (what’s left of) Marvels main universe?
They do have their own FF.
Is MK Spidy in the Avengers?
And how the heck does he explain Peter, MJ, and his aunt living at Avengers HQ?
I could go on and on with questions about how Marvel does or doesn’t make sense anymore, But I guess I should just stop and say how much I was looking forward to you Spidy book ( with Mark, his was one of the last good runs on Spidy. with Todd Dezago.), Enjoy the Hulk and am fallowing Fallen Angel to IDW.
“I know that internet reaction doesn’t equal sales, But you make us sound like fair weather friends for not wanting to pick up books by writers we don’t enjoy.”
Well, first of all, fans ARE fair weather friends. I have no illusions that fans are loyal to me. Fans are loyal to my ability to entertain them, period. If fans cease liking my work, they’re not going to say, “But I really need to keep picking up his books because he needs financial support.” That’s ridiculous. They’ll instead move on to someone who DOES entertain them. And that’s fine. I have no problems with that.
Believe me, I know some pros who HAVE been under the impression that fans have personal loyalty to them. It’s always a sad sight to see when they’re inevitably disillusioned.
My belief is that pros owe fans their best effort to entertain, and fans owe pros nothing. I think that’s a fairly accurate and sane way to view the world.
That said, I’ve asked no fans to buy books by writers they don’t like. All I said was (a) perhaps if they like the storyline as presented in my first three issues, they might be interested in sticking with it to see what happens and (b) if enough people refuse to buy FNSM based purely on a decision to avoid the entire storyline, the low sales would likely be ascribed not to the crossover, but to a lack of interest of me as the writer. Now obviously I can’t help how you view my sentiments on it. I’m simply stating my opinion. What with this being my blog and all, that doesn’t seem an unreasonable thing to do. How you react is entirely your lookout.
PAD
PAD:
Doesn’t it really depend on your definition of loyality in this case? I really have no interest in Spider-man and therefore probably will have a wait-and-see attitude towards FNS-M.
BUT.
I will trumpet how great of a writer (and great person, for that matter, based on the insights I’ve been given on this here website) I think you are to any and all who will listen. Is that not a type of loyalty to you?
Well, first of all, fans ARE fair weather friends. I have no illusions that fans are loyal to me.
I’m not sure that’s entirely fair. While it’s true that no one is going to continue buying a book forever if it’s no longer entertaining (just as someone wouldn’t continue being your friend forever if you ceased being nice), your fans will pick up a book that they wouldn’t otherwise pick up (say from an unknown company, or in black and white, or higher priced), just because you’re writing it. And your fans will also stick with a book for longer, even if they’re not wild about it, in faith that it will get better, simply because you’re writing it.
Does everyone do that? No, but a lot of us do, perhaps more than you realize, and I think that’s the definition of a fan. And if you think all writers get that kind of consideration, you’re wrong. I’d certainly count that as loyalty.
A little crossover won’t scare this Spidey fan away.
As long as a) Peter Parker remains Spider-Man, accept no substitutes and b) Pete and MJ stay married, I’m willing to give every writer/story a try.
Also, it doesn’t hurt that I loved the original Morlun story, it brought me back to reading Spider-Man.