The following was reported at Indystar.com (the full link is posted below):
“An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge’s unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to “non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals.”
The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.
Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple’s divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion.
Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy’s outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall.”
This is a real new one on me. We don’t have a case of one parent complaining to a judge that the other parent is raising their child in a religious faith that they themselves object to, and it’s part of a custody dispute. This is a judge who unilaterally didn’t like the faith in which a child was being raised and endeavored to take action. The article goes on to say:
“The parents’ Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford’s attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights.”
Understand, there’s no Satanic rituals here. They don’t even practice skyclad. Nor is there the slightest indication that the child is being harmed.
I have little doubt that this ludicrous decision will be overturned, but the notion that it occurs at all…I mean, is there any more pure travesty of the First Amendment than the courts telling two parents in what faith they can and cannot raise their child? Maybe the parents should reconsider the whole divorce thing; if this is how they want to raise their child, they’re going to be a lot stronger together than separately.
Me, I’m wondering if Tom DeLay is going to be speaking up in outrage over this clear abuse of power by an activist judge. Unless, of course, he’s too busy whining about being ill-used on “Law and Order: Criminal Intent.”
PAD
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS01/505260481
• 
FIRST POST!
(sorry, wrong website)
Anyway –
I’m wondering if Tom DeLay is going to be speaking up in outrage over this clear abuse of power by an activist judge
Of course not. Someone’s only an activist judge if they rule against the far right wing. Since Frist is part of, & supported by, the far right wing that wants the U.S. to become a “Christian” theocracy, this ruling is just fine.
(Christian in quotes because I’m referring to the self-proclaimed Christians whose behavior is anything but.)
Another reason to hate modern “America”
Preach to the rest of the world about the greatness of freedom and demcracy, but don’t practice a single fûçkìņg word of here here in America….
This story has been circulating all over SFnal cyberspace, drawing the expected howls of outrage. But almost everyone, at least at first, makes the mistake of characterizing the incident solely in terms of the judicial error.
What ought to be looked at just as closely is the agenda and practices of the “Domestic Relations Counseling Board”, which issued the report on which the judge (inappropriately) relied. Getting the judicial order modified will solve the immediate problem, but not necessarily the underlying one.
Getting the judicial order modified will solve the immediate problem, but not necessarily the underlying one
For now, it can be modified on appeal. But if The Constitution Restoration Act is passed, rulings like this cannot be appealed in Federal court.
Actually, I’ve been anticipating something like this, ever since I read that Focus on the Family (actually, Focus on What Dobson Says is the Family) was funding lawyers for grandparents and divorcees to have the child of a parent taken away from that parent’s custody due to a “non-Christian” (read gay or lesbian) lifestyle.
Of course, a judge will rule a Wiccan family is non-Christian, too. I’m waiting for the same sort of ruling for any non-Christian denomination as part of a “mixed” marriage to find their children being taken from them, too. And, if one of the parents is agnostic or atheist, that’s too bad for them.
That’s just my thought. I could be wrong.
Bladestar: Another reason to hate modern “America” Preach to the rest of the world about the greatness of freedom and demcracy, but don’t practice a single fûçkìņg word of here here in America….
Luigi Novi: But if you and I are both Americans, and we both agree that this is outrageous, then isn’t that part of America too? Doesn’t your outrage and mine mean that you and I do practice it? Why does one American judge mean that “hating” America is justifiable, when there are presumably a whole bunch of other people against it, like those on this board, to name a few, and who will no doubt have the ruling overturned? Why do you see “America” personified solely by this one idiot judge? Instead of “hating” America, why not simply oppose people like this judge who are trying to turn it iinto something that you hate, in order to maintain the version that you love?
When I was a working scientist, someone made a comment during a lab meeting about religious beliefs.
I replied “Ever seen a politician struck down by lightning?”
The lab chief then said “Well, that’s it for God, then!”
Much of the problem that the judge has here seems to stem from the fact that the child is enrolled in Catholic school, and he’s using the excuse that the child will therefore suffer “confusion” between the religious stuff taught in school and what’s learned in the home. Which bothered me when I was going to yeshiva (as my parents weren’t nearly as religious as most of the folks in the school) but I, you know, got over it. Confusion isn’t a life-threatening situation.
It does strike me as absurd, although we all seem to be laboring under the presumption that DeLay knows anything about this. The Schiavo case had been a big deal in the media long before DeLay got involved, and Law and Order is a popular enough show that if someone references a public figure like DeLay, news of that is going to filter back to him through one of his many associates. But we’re supposed to treat a three-day old item in the Indianapolis Star as though it were common knowledge?
DeLay’s from Texas, not Indiana, folks. Let’s not let our heads get too unscrewed on this one, okay? If it builds up to Schiavo-type proportions and nothing is done, well, DeLay has dropped the ball. Otherwise, let’s not pretend this is on the national radar screen.
-Dave O’Connell
It does strike me as absurd, although we all seem to be laboring under the presumption that DeLay knows anything about this. The Schiavo case had been a big deal in the media long before DeLay got involved, and Law and Order is a popular enough show that if someone references a public figure like DeLay, news of that is going to filter back to him through one of his many associates. But we’re supposed to treat a three-day old item in the Indianapolis Star as though it were common knowledge?
DeLay’s from Texas, not Indiana, folks. Let’s not let our heads get too unscrewed on this one, okay? If it builds up to Schiavo-type proportions and nothing is done, well, DeLay has dropped the ball. Otherwise, let’s not pretend this is on the national radar screen.
-Dave O’Connell
1 // Much of the problem that the judge has here seems to stem from the fact that the child is enrolled in Catholic school, and he’s using the excuse that the child will therefore suffer “confusion” between the religious stuff taught in school and what’s learned in the home. Which bothered me when I was going to yeshiva (as my parents weren’t nearly as religious as most of the folks in the school) but I, you know, got over it. Confusion isn’t a life-threatening situation. //
I’m confused, Don’t the parents have the right to send thier kid to the school of their choice, even if the religious beliefs of that school don’t match the religious beliefs taught at home? If this was the judges concern why didn’t he take the kid out of Catholic School, because the school didn’t match the teachings at home? I suspect because Christianity is, (in his mind), the real religion. I went to Catholic school and knew of at least 3 other students who attended who were not Catholics, (one was Jewish, one was Hindu, and the other was of some Christian denomination that was not Roman Catholic). They were sent there because thier parents thought the public schools in the area were “not good” and the Catholic school was the best education around. They made a trade off that thier kids got some religious indoctrination that they didn’t teach at home in exchange for a better education. In retrospect, it’s actually kinda cool that the parents were so sure of thier own faith and thier own practices that they knew thier kids would not be brainwashed by Catholic teachings. The parents in this case seem to be making the same choice, and divorce or not, it’s thier choice to make. Judges and the government have absolutly no right to get involved in this. And come on, protecting the child from confusion, as if confusion isn’t a normal part of childhood.
Perhaps because idiots like this judge run this country, are owned and bought by the wealthy, and we the people don’t have the power to do SHÍT about it…
We don’t have the money, and there are just enough of these religious fûçkìņg idiots in the electorate who keep these people in power and to enact more and more ridiculous legislation.
Capitalism killed this “democracy” long ago, and the sheep of America don’t care, but the cancer is too ingrained for the rest of us to do anything…
…and yet another example of abuse of power. ::sigh::
I hope for the kid’s sake this gets cleared up quickly.
“Another reason to hate modern “America””
Bladestar, you don’t need a reason to hate. It’s just what you seem to enjoy doing. Had you read the article you might have noticed the part that said “At times, divorcing parents might battle in the courts over the religion of their children. But Kenneth J. Falk, the ICLU’s legal director, said he knows of no such order issued before by an Indiana court. He said his research also did not turn up such a case nationally.”
See, what all the big words mean is that this is NOT something that happens very often, which is why it made the news, that is, you see. But hey, whatever makes you happy.
Back in the real world…NOTHING and I mean nothing that some judge decides in divorce/child custody cases surprises me. Live long enough and you will have a collection of horrid divorse stories–just hope you aren’t the main character.
The good news is that the internet allows us to make this a bigger story than the mainstream media may decide it to be. Like most slimy things I’ll bet this decision will slither away under the glare of light.
One possible warning–I note that the mother is NOT part of the appeal and was not available for comment. Since the kid lives with the father and it’s the father who seems to be most active in the wicca movement it is not inconceivable that the ex wife or someone in her family could have instigated the trouble, though I’m more likely to believe that the judge is just a jerk.
Prediction: either there ends up being more to the story (like the “Zombie Terrorist” kid)or this will be quickly overturned and this judge will be very closely watched by bloggers everywhere for his next brain malfunction.
This isn’t really all that new or unexpected.
We’ve had a bit of a dust up in Chesterfield (just South of Richmond, VA) with a Wiccan. They hold town hall meetings for the locol area community where, at the start of each meeting, they invite a member of the community to step up and give the invocation. The let any and every Jewish, Baptist, Luthran, etc step up and give the invocation anytime they wanted. She stepped up and was told, while not in these words, that she wasn’t a member of the community that counted in the eyes of the elected office holders. That nonsense, while a part of the community, would not be allowed to open thier christian community’s town hall meetings. It became a big noise when she went to court with it (she lost) and the paper and TV covered it. Now, working around the Capitol of VA, I saw a lot of nasty garbage from elected officials. Quite a few of the elected R’s, when no camera or reporter was around, made comments like “she’ll be suprised when she ends up in hëll” & “there should be a law against people like that.” And, yeah, there were a few D’s that said stuff about wishing people “like that” would just shut up and go away.
Have you watched CSPAN? when the R’s up in the nation’s Capitol (House & Senate) are playing to thier crowd they say things that are proof that they view thier faith as the One and nobody else has one that counts. When R’s bring up how “insane” the country is they point out thimgs like how the crazy left has shoved such PC stuff as having Wiccan, Muslim or other non-Christian priests on base in the areas where they have recruits who skew to those religions. They go on about how insane it is and how we’re wasting “tax payer money” on this kind of thing. Yet, I’ve never heard word one from those same R’s about taxpayer money paying for a chaplin. Why would they? That’s, after all, the real faith being supported in a country that was founded on Christian beliefs. They complain about public displays of these “new age cults” and “whacky religions” but turn around and demand that we have Christian prayer in school, Christian idols built with taxpayer money and that Christian views and values be espoused at the highest elected offices as a sign of love of God and (by Gawd)Country.
These are the same jakasses that have stated that the D’s are godless, hate Christians, hate “people of faith” and would destroy what this country stands for because the D’s would do something as “insane” or “dangerous” as treat other faiths as equeal to the christian faiths. Well, studies on the numbers show that most of the appointed judges in this country were appointed by some one with an R in front of thier name (despite all the tears from the R’s about all the “lib” judges out there.) Is it any wonder that we’ve reached this point?
As always, I think there’s going to be more to this story.
I’m not condoning the ruling “but” I do want to point out that Wicca is not just “a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.
While I’m sure that’s part of it I do know that all that is just a fancy way of saying, “witchcraft”.
Of course, like any religion, it can be meaningful and powerful, used well and abused.
But let’s not cut off the corners of our sandwich here, Wicca is a form of witchcraft.
While I don’t know the specifics and I’m sorry, I do have relatives who practice it and the most certainly refer to themselves as witches and warlocks and we’re not talking about Dungeons and Dragons here.
If you read on through the article you find suspicious quotes and dubious remarks:
“Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to them,” Goff said. “Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There’s not really a church of Wicca. Practices vary from region to region.”
I’m sorry but I’m not so relieved when you throw in “tend to’s”
“Jones said he does not consider himself a witch or practice anything resembling witchcraft.”
At this point, do you think he would say anything but that?
Obviously the judge has a good reason for doing what he did. He may be off based, and I’m not even getting into the debate on whether or not he was right to do so, but tying this into comics we should all know that any well written villian is usually doing something he believes is right, and sometimes, even the heroes do something that they believe ie right, but it doesn’t turn out so well.
My point?
Let’s wait for more of the facts to come out.
Don’t forget Bush The First said that “Athiests should not be considered American citizens”
“Don’t forget Bush The First said that “Athiests should not be considered American citizens”
Does that mean i don’t have to pay taxes any more? If so, more power to em! Then i’ll just let the system take care of me too like other illegals…
I’m sorry but I’m not so relieved when you throw in “tend to’s”
“Tend to’s” can be applied to any religion. i.e. ‘Christanity tends to be charitable’ or ‘Islam tends to be a religion of peace’
“Jones said he does not consider himself a witch or practice anything resembling witchcraft.”
Obviously the judge has a good reason for doing what he did
Bûllšhìŧ. Unless the judge can point to some specific threat, there is NO good reason for any judge to tell parents what religion they can or cannot raise their child in. And if there is a threat, then the child would need to be removed from the parents who are causing the threat
But let’s not cut off the corners of our sandwich here, Wicca is a form of witchcraft.
So? As you say, any religion can be misused. This is not a reason for the government to decide a child’s religious upbringing.
This case is no different than if the judge ruled that the child could not be allowed to attend Catholic schools because some priests have abused children.
The good news is that the internet allows us to make this a bigger story than the mainstream media may decide it to be.
Well, this should be a bigger story if it is indeed true.
And it just shows how pathetically useless and afraid the “mainstream” media is these days.
Either they’re sucking up the Bush Adminstration lies, or not reporting them at all.
Nobody should be surprised if this story is true, we should only be surprised that something like this hasn’t happened before now.
But it will happen again, as long as some Christian right-wingers continue to try and make God the leader of this country in all but name.
But let’s not cut off the corners of our sandwich here, Wicca is a form of witchcraft.
And Christianity is a form of of fascism.
See how easy that is?
But hey, the only ones who actually bother to use the terms of “witchcraft” and “devil worshipper” are the Christians, who rule by fear and persecution.
And so what if it were witchcraft? Do you honestly believe that people can suspend the laws of physics at will, merely by muttering a few trite phrases in pseudo-Gaelic or illiterate Latin?
I don’t consider “witchcraft” any more dangerous to children than Christian Science, and the rights of Christian Scientist parents to raise their children in their faith has been upheld multiple times – to the point that in some jurisdictions, parents who refused to seek medical treatment for their children because it ran counter to their faith were able to use this as a defense against neglect charges.
Why hold Wiccan parents’ faith against them, even if you think it’s “witchcraft”? I don’t remember an exception anywhere in the First Amendment for “weird religions”…
I know a little about Wicca — dated a practicioner for 9 months — and, like any other religion it can be very positive or very negative. There are those who see Wiccan as a force for spiritual renewal and respecting nature, and there are those who try to cast spells on their enemies and gain power and influence. It’s no better or worse than other mainstream religions. (I leave it to the fellow PAD fans here to toss out their favorite examples of the good and bad in others.)
That said, the idea of a judge deciding that parents cannot expose their child to “non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals” is abhorrent. Parents can raise their children in any belief system — Christian, Jewish, Wiccan, Islam, atheist, Big Purple Tree Called J — and as long as nothing is done that’s against the law, the parents are perfectly within their rights.
And I can guarantee that you will hear nothing against this from DeLay or the Right Wing. They’re already angered the Religious Reich (thanks to INWO for this title) by not keeping Terri Schaivo alive, and for failing to allow up-or-down votes to have pro-life judges automatically approved. There’s no way the politicians will seem to act in a way that endorses a non-Christian religion. (You probably won’t hear anything from the Democrats either, as they want to make inroads into the once-definite religious base the Republicans used so well last election. It woulda been amusing, if it wasn’t to sad, to hear Hilary Clinton talking about domestic partnerships and making sure to say that no Democrat she knows supports gay marriage.)
“Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to them,” Goff said. “Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There’s not really a church of Wicca. Practices vary from region to region.”
I’m sorry but I’m not so relieved when you throw in “tend to’s””
Fine. But you can replace “Wiccans” in that same statement with “Christians” and the same point is made and 100% true (well.. maybe not the pagan holiday part.)
Most any religion tends to vary from region to region. Why do you think that there are so many forms of the Catholic faith? How many Jews do you know with giant beards? Ever heard of a Southern Baptist? They’re a wee bit different then the other kinds. Have you counted how many faiths are all based on the same book and the same god (big G) and claiming that the others based on that same book have all got it wrong to some degree?
Same holds true for most, but not all, members of the faith being pacifistic. I can only think of one or two faiths were the standard for joining is being a 100% pacifist and they aint the big C faith.
“But let’s not cut off the corners of our sandwich here, Wicca is a form of witchcraft.”
Yeah. And a study of the history of the faith shows that many of the followers weren’t bad people. It also shows that a few were but you can say that about any faith. Hëll, there was even a Pope who was famous for having written a pørņ novel way back when. Read it in school. Tame as hëll by today’s standards. That study would also show that a lot of the perception of witchcraft formed first by the Holy Church and later by pop culture was hogwash. Thing is, pop culture just wanted to have fun. The Church went out of its way to tell lies. And, in an example like this but 100 times the scale, the Church and the State got together in merry ol’ England and made it against the law to worship any faith but that of the holy Catholic Church and later, after the rift, the Church of England. Granted, back then you could die for your worshipping of the faith but I don’t think “just going to jail” is a great step up for a country that claims the goals and ideals that this one does.
I can’t wait for this to get overturned and for that little twit to be kicked off the bench.
“But hey, the only ones who actually bother to use the terms of “witchcraft” and “devil worshipper” are the Christians, who rule by fear and persecution.”
Now you want to show that you’re as dumb as the judge?
I’m Christian. My wife is Catholic. Neither of us use those words unless we’re talking about the latest novel coming out or quoting things like this. We don’t try and rule by F&P either.
We, like a growing number of mainstreamers, are getting sick of this kind of thing as much as you are. We can’t stand the fact that the faith, much like some times in the bad old days, is being hijacked for politics by a bunch of right wing nut jobs (elected or otherwise) and used to make us all look like wingnuts as a whole. It pìššëš us off to no end to see people winning elections by spewing insane, right wing, hate speach garbage and holding that up as “our country and our faith.”
Say what you want but realize that there are a whole lot of Christians out there that worship everyday who despise this kind of thing even more then you do or ever could.
“The good news is that the internet allows us to make this a bigger story than the mainstream media may decide it to be.”
Actually, the day this story broke, it was the lead story on the front page of print edition of the Indianapolis Star. I don’t know how much national coverage it’s had, but since more and more people are getting their news off the net, I think we’ve got it covered.
Now, on to the particulars… Anyone who actually knows the slightest bit about Wicca knows that the one universal tenet of the faith is, “As it harm none, do as you will.” Of course most conservative religions will find such a faith system threatening. A simple admonishment to be good to others (and yourself) and encouragement to explore for yourself doesn’t put butts in the pews or cash in the Church coffers, and the Church has done a VERY good job over the years of brainwashing a great many people into reacting negatively when they hear the word “witch.”
On a side note, the assumption that anyone who practices the Wiccan faith is a witch or such is just ingorant. If somebody says they’re, say, Jewish or Catholic, do we automatically assume they’re a rabbi or priest?
What’s happened is religious persecution, ladies and gentlemen. The sad thing is, it’s happening all the time. This is just one case that’s made the media.
-Rex Hondo-
“But you can replace “Wiccans” in that same statement with “Christians” and the same point is made and 100% true (well.. maybe not the pagan holiday part.)”
Actually, a whole lot of, if not most Christian holidays are co-opted Pagan festivals, so that part can stay. 😉
-Rex Hondo-
P.S.- I’ll be quiet for a while now.
“Now, on to the particulars… Anyone who actually knows the slightest bit about Wicca knows that the one universal tenet of the faith is, “As it harm none, do as you will.”
Some, but not all. There are quite a few Wiccans who follow a darker path. Not evil. Just the same type of path that Christians who believe that “an eye for an eye” is a great thing do. They believe that they are perfectly within thier faith’s bounds by attempting to do harm to some one who has tried to harm them and not just wishing them out of thier lives and outa thier way. There are lots who live by the no harm rule but there are still a fair amount who don’t.
“And so what if it were witchcraft? Do you honestly believe that people can suspend the laws of physics at will, merely by muttering a few trite phrases in pseudo-Gaelic or illiterate Latin?”
I think you have to be able to twitch your nose, too.
PAD
Rex
“Actually, a whole lot of, if not most Christian holidays are co-opted Pagan festivals, so that part can stay. ;)”
Yeah, I know the whole Easter Bunny and eggs, fir tree, Goddess Brigit, moved holidays to make them Christian, etc list. But you KNEW what I meant.
Smartass.
;(
I’m Christian. My wife is Catholic
Ummm … I thought that Catholics were also Christians?
>>And I can guarantee that you will hear nothing against this from DeLay or the Right Wing.
Let’s just say this straight up; I’m part of the religious right; I’m a Christian Conservative, a fundamentalist.
That said, the judge has no buisness going against the wishes of both parents. I understand (don’t like) the courts getting involved when parents are fighting, but not in this case. The states should never step in on the rights of the parents except to save the child from imminent physical danger.
Of course, this just proves the point that judges (on all sides) operate with too much autonomy and no one is able to stop them if they overstop their bounds, unless a superior court decides to intervene.
KIP
// Ummm … I thought that Catholics were also Christians? //
Depends entirly upon which “Christians” (or which Catholics for that matter), you talk to. There are lots of sects of Christianity that will tell you that Roman Catholics are not only not in the same “class” as them but are inherintly evil and will “rot in hëll” with all the Jews, Moslins, Hindus and other non believers. And of course a lot of Roman Catholics consider all other Christians to be “Pegans”, no different then Wiccans or Santanist. Even though they both believe in Christ, the specifics can be very different.
Posted by: Darren J Hudak at May 30, 2005 12:00 AM
I know. I’m just curious about someone who identifies himself as Christian & his wife as Catholic. I can see ‘I’m Protestant & she’s Catholic’, but this one just seemed unusual.
Michael Brunner,
“I thought that Catholics were also Christians”
I always thought that too. But some Christians, especially the born-again kind, actually hold Catholics in contempt for believing in things like saints. Strange – and sad – but true.
Bladestar and Craig Ries,
I’m not even going to bother putting any of your posts in quotes, because basically they’re all the same. Bladestar, if you would use all of this anger you have toward virtually everyone – politicians, religious people, “the wealthy” – and channeled it in a productive way, you and perhaps we would be a lot better off. You’re only as “helpless” as you allow yourself to be. It’s easy to criticize but hard working with people toward solutions. You should try it sometime.
But at least you’re consistent. You don’t like any religious people. Unlike you, Craig. Who I have never heard (read) say one bad thing about Islamic fanatics who repress and kill people, or Jews or Buddhists, but see repeatedly bashing Christians. Or as you love to say, “THE CHRISTIANS”, who, oh yeah, RULE BY FEAR AND PERSECUTION.” My God, you make it sound like they’re badass Star Trek villains or something. That it doesn’t bother you one bit being a vile bigot toward a whole group of people is quite sad. Of course, this is just the latest asinine generalization you’ve made. Telling Russ that the military he knew is dead was probably the biggest bunch of bûllšhìŧ to spew out of your increasingly ignorant mouth. Do you actually KNOW any Christians? Or anybody actively serving in Iraq? I do. I know quite a few of the latter. They are proud of the things they’ve done to help make people’s lives better. What exactly do you do all day besides whining about everything from corporations to the wealthy to the Bush Administration to Christians to the military? Do you ever even try to do something constructive?
Alright, granted, there are going to be those in any faith system, Wicca included, who give lip service to its tenets, then go off and do evil crap anyway. All of which is fairly beside the point of the issue at hand, I think.
If we’re waiting for the other side of the story, we’ll be waiting for a while. I think we’ve already gotten all we’re going to get. Think about it, if they had evidence the parents were doing blood rituals or some such with the kid, then they’d have a case, and they would say so. If the best argument the judge and company can muster is it’s going to confuse him going to a Catholic school, then they don’t have a leg to stand on.
-Rex Hondo-
Unlike you, Craig. Who I have never heard (read) say one bad thing about Islamic fanatics who repress and kill people, or Jews or Buddhists, but see repeatedly bashing Christians.
Well, it’s the Christians (yes, those evil, evangelical ones) that are ruining this country.
Not the Jews, Muslims, or Buddhists.
None of which are, apparently, “mainstream” enough to hold major positions of power in this country. Like, oh, the presidency.
Do you actually KNOW any Christians?
As shocking as this must be, yes, I do.
Or anybody actively serving in Iraq
Another shocker: yes. The son of two of my married coworkers is currently on his second tour in Iraq.
He hates the fact he’s there. So do his parents.
Everybody is proud that he’s willing to serve.
Nobody is proud that he’s doing it under a bunch of bûllšhìŧ lies from Bush.
Do you ever even try to do something constructive?
Yep. I sit here and present honesty and truth, as does PAD and many other posters here.
But those are things you won’t find coming out of the White House.
If you don’t like it, you’re more than welcome to stop responding to my posts, because, quite frankly, I don’t give a dámņ what you think about the posts I make.
If you want to bìŧçh, whine and moan about the Islamics, who aren’t ruining this country btw, be my guest.
Or, perish the thought, you too could say that, yes, áššhølëš like Pat Robertson and his ilk need to shove off and let this country head back to the land of sanity. Maybe they can pick up this judge in Indiana along the way.
By the way, there’s a good reason that religious groups are often referred to as “god-fearing”.
Nothing induced obedience like a healthy dose of fear. Don’t believe in God? You’re going to Hëll. Gay? Hëll. Voting Democrat? Hëll.
And yes, persecution – Jews, Muslims, Wiccans. And, as others have mentioned, even Catholics.
So, quite frankly, I don’t see a need to bash these other religions.
Apparently you think I should, just to be consistent? My, aren’t you a hypocritical jáçkášš.
So… if this judge says that children can’t see non-mainstream religous views… does this mean Battlefield Earth is now rated NC-17? Or do they just assume it was such a bad film that nobody would watch it anyway?
Two thoughts:
1.) If the facts are as stated (which is always a big “if” when it comes to a news story), then I would agree the judge has way overstepped his bounds. Thing is, you find less “conservative” judges doing this. Yes, there are exceptions, such as Moore and the whole 10 commandments rabbit trail. But there is no doubt that Delay is on the side that generally does less damage to what is actually written in the constitution.
2.) I believe people have the right to practice Wicca. But I am amazed at the ignorance there is about the origins of this religion. I know it is not as “coherent” of a system as the major religions, but the teachings and concepts it adopts come from ancient tribal religions that enslaved women and sacrificed children. No, I am not saying the modern form of Wicca embraces those beliefs. But it is fascinating how its origins are not honestly dealt with.
One final thought: The only Christians who want a theocracy are a very fringe group who have no real power or sway over most Christians. Christianity does not have the powerful clerics that Islam has. Even in the Catholic church, the most heirarchical (sp?) part of Christianity, the pope is ignored by a large portion of American Catholics when it comes to things like abortion or birth control. For all of the fear that James Dobson seems to strike in the hearts of some of you, he only has the same sway that a Rev. Jesse Jackson has — he preaches to the choir. He gives voice to what some Christians think and believe.
Evangelical Christians (or any other form of “Christianity”) are not tearing this country apart. Forget, for the moment, Bush winning the last two elections. Look at Congress. It has become much more conservative over the last few years. Conservatives in general, which includes Christians, Jews, agnostics, atheists, etc., are winning in the arena of ideas. There is no conspiracy. And quite frankly, it could all change tomorrow if democrats actually offered some solid ideas rather than just making fun of Bush and trying to block his ideas.
Bottom line, if the country is being pulled apart, the liberal side is on the other side of that rope in this political tug of war.
Iowa Jim
But let’s not cut off the corners of our sandwich here, Wicca is a form of witchcraft.
While I don’t know the specifics and I’m sorry, I do have relatives who practice it and the most certainly refer to themselves as witches and warlocks and we’re not talking about Dungeons and Dragons here.
What’s your point? That because it’s “witchcraft” it’s not a valid religion in your eyes? Well, that’s not your choice to make any more than it is the judge’s. Like you, I have some close friends who are practitioners. I even attended a service with them once. It’s been an eye-opening experience for me to know them and see them raise their children. If a judge were to deny them their right to practice their faith, I’d want the judge impeached.
Western society has a lot of preconceived ideas about witchcraft that have been passed down over the years, and I’ll admit it’s a hard habit to break out of. However, these parents should not have their rights taken away by some idiot judge. You should not be so quick to defend the judge based on your own preconceptions either. You say “wait for the facts”, well, I don’t see where any judge has any place telling an individual what faith they can practice – just to keep from confusing a child. The burden of proof should be a LOT higher.
I know it is not as “coherent” of a system as the major religions, but the teachings and concepts it adopts come from ancient tribal religions that enslaved women and sacrificed children. No, I am not saying the modern form of Wicca embraces those beliefs. But it is fascinating how its origins are not honestly dealt with.
So? Judaism started out as a tribal religion. Christians have used the Bible to justify slavery. Origins are important, but not as important as the modern-day teachings. If we were to disqualify religions based on their origins, then most of them would be tossed out for one reason or another.
Go back far enough, and ALL religions have their roots in similar tribal chuck-another-virgin-in-the-volcano sources.
Besides, Wicca is hardly alone in the ignoring unpleasant episodes from its past department. Do we REALLY want to play another round of “Who’s Religion has Committed the Most Atrocities?”
Admittedly, this particular case has gotten me a bit hot under the collar, but it’s mildly amusing to me that even though it looks like most, if not all of us agree this judge is a kook, we’ve still found things to argue about. Gotta love this board. 😉
-Rex Hondo-
We don’t have an arena of ideas, only a curtain of bûllšhìŧ. And the conservatives are definitely winning. They just aren’t leading, or governing, or administrating. Their only policy is winning.
“If you want to bìŧçh, whine and moan about the Islamics, who aren’t ruining this country btw, be my guest.”
I accept the challenge! Dammit, the islamics, jews, Wicca and other non christians need to get off thire collective butts and start ruining this country too! I’m sick of them being lazy and leaving it to the christians. I’m looking at you PAD, why arn’t you running for some office?
🙂
Jeff Coney
Jeff Coney
Hey look the idiot above me typed his name twice by accident….oh wait.
Jeff Coney
// 2.) I believe people have the right to practice Wicca. But I am amazed at the ignorance there is about the origins of this religion. I know it is not as “coherent” of a system as the major religions, but the teachings and concepts it adopts come from ancient tribal religions that enslaved women and sacrificed children. No, I am not saying the modern form of Wicca embraces those beliefs. But it is fascinating how its origins are not honestly dealt with. //
Might want to take an actual look at the Christian Bible before you get on your high horse. Did Wicca come from traditions that endorse slavery? Maybe? But the Bible also has several passages in it that say Slavery is ok, (and indeed the Bible was used by many to justify the holding of Blacks as Slaves in Pre Civil War Times). The Bible also has dozens of passages that seem to exist for no other reason then to hold women back, it’s a men’s Bible and when the rules are laid down men definatly got the better deal. And then of course there’s all the bigotry and hated in there, (gays are bad, Jews are bad, non believers are bad). Passages that have been used by believers to justify such atrocities as lyching, gay bashing, slavery, the Crusades, restricting civil rights from certain areas of the population and, oh yeah, what was that big thing that happened 50 years ago or so, several million died horribly and systematically, you know, the Holocust. A lot of religions have “blood on thier hands”, (so to speak), how come Christianity gets a free pass for realitivly recent crimes, and for doctrine that still in thier holy book, but Wiccins get condemmed for stuff that happend 100’s, (if not thousands) of years ago, that for the most part, they don’t follow anymore?
Rex wrote- Do we REALLY want to play another round of “Who’s Religion has Committed the Most Atrocities?”
No, not really, and I think we’re off on a rather nasty tangent.
The main problem in this specific instance seems to be a judge who needs to get some sense knocked into him – or at least read a few books on Wicca.
Too bad we can’t force people to truly learn about religions before they make judgements – whether in court or on a posting board.
PAD wrote: I think you have to be able to twitch your nose, too.
That’s it! I *knew* I was forgetting something. ::goes off to practice her nose wiggling:: 🙂
Obviously the judge has a good reason for doing what he did
Excuse me while I go dislodge the slice of toast I just inhaled.
“Well, this should be a bigger story if it is indeed true.
And it just shows how pathetically useless and afraid the “mainstream” media is these days.
Either they’re sucking up the Bush Adminstration lies, or not reporting them at all.
Geeze…it’s not ALWAYS about Bush, y’know. The story ain’t that old, doesn’t really shake the world, and BTW we are discussing it on a blog devoted to (an admittedly great) comic book writer so I’m thinking the news actually HAS pierced the darkness. So it’s not real great evidence of the republican/media axis o’ evil.
Meanwhile, in Italy, a writer goes on trial for saying bad things about Islam. This gets hardly any play. Something to think about for those considering the EU as a possible destination when they flee Amerikkka.
But let’s not cut off the corners of our sandwich here, Wicca is a form of witchcraft.
Even if true, so what? There’s no reason to think that child sacrifices are part of the current dogma, any more than we Catholics need to explain that the burning of heretics is part of Tuesday’s bingo nights.
There are those who see Wiccan as a force for spiritual renewal and respecting nature, and there are those who try to cast spells on their enemies and gain power and influence.
Wouldn’t people kind of figure out at some point that spells don’t work? I teach some kids at school who are “Satanists” and claim to be able to do spells and crap but I have to wonder why they have never tried the mystic Chant of Non-Greasy Hair or the Incantation to Clear Up Acne. personally I think the whole thing is little more than a chapter from The Book Of Ways To Pìšš Øff Your Parents.
And I can guarantee that you will hear nothing against this from DeLay or the Right Wing.
It wasn’t too long ago that they were being told to butt out of criticizing judges rulings…now they will be criticized for not doing just that…once again, another case of it all depending on whose ox is getting gored.
I think you have to be able to twitch your nose, too.
See, that’s why Jeannie was so much more powerful than Samantha….it’s hard to twitch your nose but anyone can nod their head.
Well, it’s the Christians (yes, those evil, evangelical ones) that are ruining this country.
Not the Jews, Muslims, or Buddhists.
None of which are, apparently, “mainstream” enough to hold major positions of power in this country. Like, oh, the presidency.
Gee, according to many in Europe it’s those evil Jews (or “neocons” if you want to speak in code) that are running the country. Part of the whole Zionist plot, dontcha know. Sounds nutty as hëll, though not much worse than “it’s the Christians (yes, those evil, evangelical ones) that are ruining this country”.