Brian Hibbs replied to my commentary here…
http://www.comixexperience.com/savblog/savblog.html
…so you can go check it out there ’cause I’m not going to reprint the entirety of someone’s blog entry since–y’know–one really shouldn’t do that.
And fortunately enough, I don’t feel like I’m in a pìššìņg match with Brian, because ultimately we’re after the same thing: To sell comics. But he makes a couple of points worth addressing specifically…
Yes, I’ve been extremely upfront, in any number of interviews, that I’ve always known Fallen Angel was a tough sell in today’s market. Putting aside the general fan resistence to any non-mutant character created more recently than 1978, I’ve said any number of times that here’s a title of a dark and ambiguous nature with a mysterious female protagonist who is not scantily clad and whose motivations aren’t spoon fed to the readers (although, as people on this board have proven, it’s all there for those who care to look). A book that DC made a point of saying was not part of the DCU, thereby assuring readers they could safely skip it, and was slapped with a “For Mature Readers” label and a price hike, all in less than a year. And without the Vertigo label, we fly under the radar of Vertigo readers. I’ve been VERY honest about that all along.
My point–and I did have one–was that in recent months the book seems on the verge of overcoming all of that as more and more reviewers rave about it and more and more readers start seeking it out…only to discover it couldn’t be found, and there’s apathy in some quarters about getting it for willing readers. While the non-ordering habits of some retailers is certainly not the only reason Fallen Angel has been a tough slog, I hardly think those same retailers could be exempt from comment or criticism simply because there’s a lot of books out there they have to deal with. Because I’m the one hearing from the fans who are complaining (and by the way, will someone PLEASE swing by Brian’s store and buy the copy of the Fallen Angel trade he says he hasn’t sold yet? Whoever does, I’ll toss in an extra something cool when you send for the bookplate. Thanks.)
Yes, there’s been any number of times when retailers have responded to surveys and such in my column (those were the only times when I’ve acquired lists of retailer addresses). Were I so inclined, I could have a pretty impressive mailing list. But I have not pursued that because–well–it seemed tacky. If I asked for retailer opinions on a subject, I want them to know it’s because I’m genuinely interested. If I start using such endeavors as the basis for a list of stores that are “friendly” to me, then I’m leaving myself open to accusations that I don’t give a crap about what retailers think, but rather am cynically trying to gather names to do exactly what Brian suggests I do: Make self-serving mailing lists. Am I possibly costing myself sales? I suppose. Better that, though, than to break faith with retailers and make them think I’m just trying to sell them something.
And I’ve been disinclined to go to such “gated” retailer on-line venues as Brian suggests because, again, it seemed tacky. I figure such places should be where retailers can gather to discuss whatever they want to discuss, without writers showing up there to huckster their material. I guess I’ll just have to count on one of those “Peter David friendly” retailers to bring word of my bookplate offer to them. I’d rather it come from one of their own rather than me shoving my face into someplace where I might not be welcome.
And I certainly hope Brian is wrong in his assessment that fans have already made up their minds and Fallen Angel is a lost cause. I’d like to think that someone who believes in tilting with windmills isn’t a big believer in lost causes. Me, I tend to look at something unassuming, such as windmills or, if you will, Fallen Angel, and instead think, They might be giants.
PAD
• 
Well, one suggestion I might make is to visit such boards as..
http://www.millarworld.net/
I’ve seen Warren Ellis and Ed Brubaker join in conversations about their work. They also solicit responses too their work and other opinions.
I don’t know how keen you are on this idea but it might be cool. I know that a couple weeks ago there was a huge FA thread that seemed quite positive and would have been even more so had you been able to participate.
Cheers!
– Ben
BTW. The LCS I go to in San Mateo, CA always has my two copies of FA (the wife needs one as well. 🙂 ) and at least 4-10 copies on the shelf for non-subs. They say it sells pretty well.. maybe all those people from modesto are coming up near me to buy it. 🙂
What about all the international readers of Fallen Angel? It’s great that people living in the US can send a SASE and get the bookplate. But it doesn’t help people overseas get a copy. I remember PAD doing something similiar with one of his scripts (send in a SASE get the script) to plug one of his books. But many countries don’t have international reply paid coupons anymore.
What abouut a PayPal address to send the money to? I know quite a few people would love to buy the bookplate for a reasonable amount.
PAD, I think a lot of your points boil down to propriety; that is, you don’t feel comfortable doing such and such thing to promote your work. That’s a theme I’ve seen you express before, but I think the reality is, shameless hucksterism succeeds. The creators who are most successful are usually the ones who get out everywhere and relentlessly talk up their work at every opportunity, ignore the naysayers, and cultivate the faithful. They won’t let you ignore them. Is it tacky? Maybe, but it works. So I guess the choice for you is undignified success or dignified failure.
Brian wrote in his blog:
>So if you tell me that there are stores out there that are turning down legitimate preorders, I
And I certainly hope Brian is wrong in his assessment that fans have already made up their minds and Fallen Angel is a lost cause. I’d like to think that someone who believes in tilting with windmills isn’t a big believer in lost causes. Me, I tend to look at something unassuming, such as windmills or, if you will, Fallen Angel, and instead think, They might be giants.
Forgive me if I’m a bit off topic, but wasn’t Don Quixote not only a bit off kilter, but the reason he couldn’t tell he was titlting at windmils was because he had lost sight of reality?
As I see it the problem is not really on the retailers’ end but on the publisher’s. They have no faith in the product, they don’t promote, it, they do nothing to offer incentives to read, buy or even carry it.
No offense, but the federal government does a better job at promoting itself and services than the comic book industry.
Reading Brian’s blog and enjoying it. Peter – how about you do some comic book reviews on this blog, too? I think a lot of people would be interested in reading them. Your TV show reviews were always intersting and entaertaining.
Peter,
I do think his suggestion to be active on the CBIA is a good one. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen you on there before, just not activly. I know mnay retailers, myself included, tend to be generous ordering products from people we interact with on a daily basis (especially if it’s something we wouldn’t have ordered anyways). It’s less of an issue with you, since I imagine any retailer worth a lick knows who PAD is, but it wouldn’t hurt. I know I wouldn’t have stocked “The Factor” if I didn’t know Nat so well through the CBIA.
My 2 cents.
Jerry Wall
Tacky to e-mail? Maybe, but Barnes & Noble sends me an e-mail every time you release a new book since I bought several of your New Frontier novels from them.
Are you _really_ being Very Honest about the reasons why this book is a hard sell? Summarizing from your post:
1) Protagonist isn’t a mutant.
2) Protagonist is not a scantily-clad babe.
3) Audience isn’t spoon-fed all the answers straight away.
4) DC has isolated it from the rest of the DCU, sending the message that it isn’t important.
5) DC put a “Mature Readers’ flag on it.
6) DC raised the price.
7) DC is isolating it from potential Vertigo readers.
I like your stuff in general, PAD, and have done so for years. But I’ll be honest: I picked up the first two issues of “Fallen Angel” and it just didn’t click with me. No harm, no foul; it doesn’t mean I wouldn’t have liked issue 3, and it doesn’t mean I won’t like your next series, either.
But your first three reasons for Why This Book Is A Hard Sell boil down to “it’s too classy for the average reader” (which strikes me as rather snotty) and the other four say “DC doesn’t _want_ this book to succeed,” suggesting that they’d take more satisfaction from the book’s cancellation than they would from it becoming a franchise cash cow.
I hope you don’t think that this is just dumb trolling on my part. It’s just that I wish I’d seen a #8: “It’s entirely possible that this isn’t a great book; that the premise was too weak to spark initial interest and the ongoing product isn’t engaging enough to hold existing readers and attract new ones.”
Which is not to say that “Fallen Angel” is a bad book — it’s all subjective, of course — but I kind of raise my eyebrows when an author blames the publishers and (even worse) the intelligence of the average reader, and rather blatantly leaves out the most important third of the Trifecta.
There was an 8th reason: People interested in the book can’t find it.
Try this, Peter: instead of using the email addresses you got from other stuff to make a Self-Serving Mailing List (SSML), how about soliciting retailers to sign up for an SSML? Cut straight to the heart of the matter, and those who want to get emails from you will sign up, those who had just wanted to give you sales info won’t.
Couple of things to add.
On the subject of bad retailers;
It really depends what you mean by bad retailers. To my mind, someone could be a smart businessman but a bad retailer.
And I know many of those kind of retailers, not just in comics; they may be rude and unhelpful to their customers, but because they’re smart with the numbers, and because they’ve positioned themselves in the right place for demand for their product (like being the only game in town), or because they have some other feature that outstrips their competitors, they survive and often flourish. Many customers just don’t bother with principled stands declaring “I will never shop here again”.
Heck, a guy a Midtown Comics was rude to me just yesterday when I inquired why a #4 issue of a series which was only on #5 was marked up when #1 and #2 weren’t. And that wasn’t the first time someone there has been rude to me. But y’know what, when I’m in the area, I very may well stop in again.
And PAD has heard before about a retailer in Lindenhurst who frequently doesn’t stock comics from major publishers and often doesn’t fill order requests, but if I need a comic and I don’t have the time to make the drive elsewhere, I still stop there.
So to me, the notion that just because someone is a bad retailer (especially in the sense of not caring about stocking certain books and filling certain orders) does not at all spell doom for them. If they’re cutthroat, they may actually do a lot better than their competitors with a more customer-friendly approach to retailing that can wind up being more costly.
The guy I mentioned in Lindenhurst is doing better than his more customer-friendly competitor in Massapequa, and that’s coming from the Massapequa guy. The Massaquea guy mentioned to me the other day that the Lindenhurst guy brags that he doesn’t even read Previews; he simply orders based on how similar books have sold before.
Lastly, as to the primary reason why Fallen Angel isn’t selling, I would have to agree it was in how the launch was handled. Besides the not-Vertigo branding error, launching a bunch of books as part of a new line almost never works. Seriously, can we think of any case where that approach has succeeded? The Vertigo line started off with an established book, right? Even the Ultimate line was built one book at a time. Virtually ever successful book I can think of was launched on its own. Because with any new launch, you need to give it its time in the sun. And if that sun doesn’t come at the dawn of the book, its very hard to get back on track. I really don’t know why companies (Marvel with Tsunami, DC with Dangerous Curves and Focus) continue to try this approach when it’s failed again and again.
Let me echo others who note that the CBIA is not for retailers only. It is, at heart, for retailing issues, but the retailers specifically want to be hearing from the publishers and creators both for issues (like most of your recent piece) and promotions (like your bookplate promotion — folks who got bookplated copies of The Liberty Project, Alice, or The Factor at their local stores likely got them due to CBIA promotion). I spend a fair amount of time there (generally with my publisher hat on rather than my creator hat).
They do have a separate section that is retailers only, so if they really do have stuff they don’t want creators to see, they go in there.
It pains me to admit it, because I’m a proud PADdict, but I have to agree with Andy with regards to “Fallen Angel”. I followed the book for the majority of its first year, but by the conclusion of the Shard storyline I came to realize that I just wasn’t enjoying it, that I was continuing to read it in the hope that it would pull me in, and it never did. I can’t speak for anyone else, but this is how I felt.
With all due respect to Mr. David, I don’t think that this is his best, strongest work. And it’s not because I’m waiting for Lee to fight crime in a thong, or because I’m a mindless mutant zombie, it’s because there’s a difference between spoonfeeding answers and not giving any at all. When every element of a story is a hint wrapped in enigma enfolded in a riddle, you end up with no hook. Lee’s ambivalence could only hold my interest for so long, and continually promising that in Bete Noire “nothing is as it seems” only led me to respond with “Then what on Earth is the point?” It’s not like she was a consistent protagonist: supposedly independent while secretly infatuated with Juris (who she professes to despise, only to have an unexplained change of heart), a “shades of grey” type who is only ever seen doing good things unless it’s that troublesome slaver/murderess Black Mariah, she kills people but she teaches high school gym, etc. Keeping things fluid and ambiguous is fine, but I felt there should have been at least one thing that was clear, some starting point from which to decipher everything else. Otherwise there’s no emotional resonance; Lee’s trials and tribulations ended up feeling hollow to me, because I was so uninvested and disinterested in her character.
I support diversity in comics. I believe in moving away from superhero conventions and exploring new genres. I wanted to like this, and I stuck with it longer than I would have for any other writer. But in the final analysis, all the critical praise in the world doesn’t change the fact that, if the plot and characters were moving in any specific direction, it took them far, far too long to get going. Commercially, I agree that DC and retailers share the blame. But I, personally, did not drop this book because of them.
I’m sorry, Mr. David. I don’t mean to insult or offend you, and far be it for me to presume to dictate to someone with your experience and expertise. But I have to point to the possibility that there might be more to this situation than you’ve stated.
I don’t think we’re in a “pìššìņg match” (I hope the dialogue has been productive for BOTH of us, as well as any other creators and retailers who might read this)
And it’s not “tacky” to promote yourself. Honestly. Seidman even started a thread asking about it, and everyone responding would welcome you (or any other creator willing to help us sell books!) in the CBIA.
Time to go have a sunday off, or at least some of it!
-B
>
I find this to be such a lame excuse… in all of the comic shops that I visit (6 of them), every single one of them have Fallen Angel. But lets say this is a major occurance, DC usually is pretty good about printing extras for reorders so there is nothing hindering customers asking the shop to reorder a copy for them (or making sure to order a copy in the future for them).
The main comic shop which I frequent each and every week carries FA (gets about 7 copies) and he usually has two copies left over and they never seem to sell off the back issue rack. At least at this store, there are no new customers coming in for this book (yes, he carried the trade).
Personally, I tried this title but just wasn’t impressed with it. The story wasn’t that interesting (and no, not because there weren’t any mutants in it nor that the female lead wasn’t scantly clad). Also, I didn’t find the artwork all that great. I guess overall this just wasn’t the type of book that I liked to read. Sorry, but I did try it.
And just so not only PAD but also any interested retailers, publishers, or creators know: more info on the CBIA can be found at http://www.thecbia.com
I know Brian’s a well-respected retailer, but sometimes I wonder if he realizes the damage that the limitations of the Direct Market have done to the comics readership.
At this stage, with so many retailers refusing to support the book, maybe this is the time for real Internet activism- giving the book away for free on the Internet. It’s already occuring in some of the BitTorrent boards- a few clicks, and you can have the entire series. Of course, those clicks don’t directly add to the sales of the book, but the exposure to the material might convince others to check out new issues of the book.
Of course, I can’t- and won’t- push this sort of activism on my own. I don’t feel like getting sued by DC Comics, who have much more legal resources than I do. Nor do I have the slightest interest in taking a dime from Peter’s wallet. If anything, I’d LOVE for Peter, the artist, and DC Comics to make a lot of money on this project. It’s great stuff, some of the best I’ve read this year.
I’ll conclude with this- Peter, if you and DC authorized trading the issues through the internet, I really think you’d see a positive effect on sales. This book needs to break out of the Direct Market and into the broader market of fans of good comic literature. Good luck- I’m still buying the issues through my retailer, Mailordercomics.com (who happily accepts all my preorders!).
“But your first three reasons for Why This Book Is A Hard Sell boil down to “it’s too classy for the average reader” (which strikes me as rather snotty) and the other four say “DC doesn’t _want_ this book to succeed,” suggesting that they’d take more satisfaction from the book’s cancellation than they would from it becoming a franchise cash cow.”
You’ve taken your own interpretation of things that I said, ascribed the intent to me, and then criticized me as being snotty on the basis of that interpretation.
Everything I said was simple fact. A non-mutant–or, for that matter, unaligned superhero book–gets sales resistance…unless you’re under the impression that Grant Morrison on X-Men sold the same as Grant Morrison on “Seaguy.” Female characters have a history of scanty or sexy outfits, and “Fallen Angel” flies in the face of that. Spoonfed characterization is what fans want? You bet. Chris Claremont had his X-Men explain every aspect of their characterization in incredible detail. He violated “show, not tell” six ways from Sunday…and the book sold through the roof. Whereas the recurring complaint I get from fans about “Fallen Angel” is, gee, they don’t understand her motivation…although it’s been proven by others on this board that she’s perfectly understandable if one actually reads the book and gives it some thought. And all the stuff that DC did was stuff that, well, DC did. I didn’t ascribe motive to it. You did.
A litany of facts that are unflattering can still be accurate.
As for only giving “Fallen Angel” issues 1 and 2,well…that’s unfortunate. Because you’ve been missing out on a hëll of a story, and it’s a shame that the avalanche of rave reviews hasn’t persuaded you that you jumped ship way too soon.
PAD
” It’s not like she was a consistent protagonist: supposedly independent while secretly infatuated with Juris (who she professes to despise, only to have an unexplained change of heart)”
There it is. There’s the problem.
An “unexplained change of heart.”
You say, Diana, that you’re not waiting for spoonfeeding. If that’s the case, then you absolutely should not consider her change of heart unexplained, because it’s right there. It’s Right There. It’s shown, not told, which is what one is supposed to do as a writer.
There’s the Angel, having run the gamut of emotions through the previous five issues. A lot has been said to her. The Shard has made her face emotions she thought she’d locked away. She stands there, outside the window of the ostensibly evil Black Mariah, whom the Angel sees herself as superior to. And she sees that even this woman is capable of loving someone, of giving of herself. She runs key comments through her mind and comes to the realization that, yes, even she is worthy of experiencing love. Of “staying to watch the sun come up,” i.e., see the light. Know warmth. It’s a knowledge that makes her smile. The shard, as promised, has given her what she needed. For the first time in the run of the series…she smiles.
And she goes to Juris…and he rejects her, apparently sick of her holding back. Her revelation is too late…but she’s too proud to beg and quickly builds the wall around herself again.
It’s all there. It’s all right there, on the page.
But you say it’s unexplained.
Not a single thing in any of the above should have been too complicated to be grasped by readers giving it any thought.
When you say it’s unexplained, what you reall mean is…I didn’t explain it to you. And it’s just kind of sad that I would need to.
And by the way…issue #16 reveals that Juris’ rejection of her is not all that it seems.
You should really be reading this book. It really is my best work.
PAD
I am sad to read that Fallen Angel isn’t doing so well. It is a great read and getting better each issue.
Well, if this thread has succeeded in anything, it’s convinced me to pick up the latest issue of Fallen Angel. Really. I’m gonna do it. I’ve mentioned before on thie blog that I didn’t enjoy the first few issues… but I like Peter David and I want his books to sell, so I really feel as though I need to give the book another chance. I’d love to buy the trade… but I’m also really poor. So I’d rather start small with a single issue.
However… and here is my question for Mr. David: What would be more likely to send a message to DC: a spike in sales for the trade or for the series proper? Whichever you’d rather I’d buy, that’s what I’ll buy. I know I said I’m poor… but I’m also a fan. 12 bucks or so seems worth paying you back for all the comics I’ve enjoyed over the years.
“You’ve taken your own interpretation of things that I said, ascribed the intent to me, and then criticized me as being snotty”
“Not a single thing in any of the above should have been too complicated to be grasped by readers giving it any thought. When you say it’s unexplained, what you reall mean is…I didn’t explain it to you. And it’s just kind of sad that I would need to.”
Forgive my bluntness, but yeah, that’s snotty. If your idea of selling FA is to tell people they’re stupid if they don’t understand it, then it really is a lost cause.
PAD, is there any way to discuss with Vertigo editors a possible relaunch of Fallen Angel, and, as Brian Hibbs suggested, under a new title? Perhaps even with a more widely-known artist. At least bring it up, and then offer that they watch the performance of Marvel’s Runaways when it’s relaunched, as both Fallen Angel and Runaways are books that launched under a collective “line” and suffered as a result.
As for myself, I don’t read Fallen Angel for one valid reason: I bought the first issue and didn’t feel inclined to pick up the second. Simple as that. Read it and didn’t feel it was the kind of thing I wanted to read. I will admit, however, after picking up issue #2 for 50 cents at a con, I was a bit more intrigued, but I haven’t bought any issues since.
Peter,
To echo some earlier remarks, not using every resource to help this book can have as bad an impact as those stores not stocking copies. I know that with the overwhelming day to day in the stores, I have no time to search out most offers or information save one main outlet… the CBIA. Your bookplate offer is a great idea… would I have know of it but for David speaking for you on CBIA? Probably not. That defines lost opportunity. I hope you reconsider participation with the Retailers who care enough to take the time to be an available audience willing to help at CBIA. In today’s market, not standing up for your own work with those who make up 100% of the orders is just taking too much of a chance on too many variables. Website reviews are great, but shelftalkers and preview scripts will get you better results when put infront of the people most capable of putting your books in reader’s hands.
Fallen Angel is a slow and steady growth in our stores, but many an issue has gone unsold to promote that growth. My reasons to order higher than sales, knowing my risk to help the title will cost me… I still owe you the gratitude of helping me when our Captain Marvel #2’s were lost by Diamond and were unavailable for replacement. That personal touch keeps me pushing for you, the “Good Guy” in my book. Same probably keeps that one copy one Brian’s shelves. CBIA participation gets you that “Good Guy” status for many whom you can’t normally have that personal relationship with. I urge you to ponder that when considering the opportunity a dialogue with industry professionals in the CBIA might bring.
And while you do, we will keep fighting for a bigger Fallen Angel audience here, hoping that with others doing the same, it will find the audience it deserves.
“Forgive my bluntness, but yeah, that’s snotty. If your idea of selling FA is to tell people they’re stupid if they don’t understand it, then it really is a lost cause.”
I suppose so, if that’s what I was doing. Except I’m saying the exact opposite. I’m saying I think that readers are SMART enough to understand FALLEN ANGEL, and that it just requires a little thought, and that it’s a shame if they don’t take the time to do so, because they’d really enjoy the series if they did. That’s a far cry from what you’re accusing me of.
I can forgive bluntness, probably because I don’t take offense at it. But saying I said stuff that I didn’t say…that I forgive less quickly.
PAD
“As for myself, I don’t read Fallen Angel for one valid reason: I bought the first issue and didn’t feel inclined to pick up the second. Simple as that. Read it and didn’t feel it was the kind of thing I wanted to read. I will admit, however, after picking up issue #2 for 50 cents at a con, I was a bit more intrigued, but I haven’t bought any issues since.”
Pick up issue #14. It’s a great reintroduction and I think you’ll be intrigued by where the story’s gone. Then buy 15-18 as they come out. If that doesn’t make you a regular, then it’s definitely not for you. But I think it will be.
PAD
“You’ve taken your own interpretation of things that I said, ascribed the intent to me, and then criticized me as being snotty on the basis of that interpretation.”
It’s obvious that it’s merely an interpretation. I would also point out the subtle difference between saying “PAD is being snotty” and saying “These specific comments come across as rather snotty to me.” If I was imprecise in my choice of language, I apologize.
I sure didn’t say anything that wasn’t true. That is indeed the impression your comments made on me. No, FA doesn’t have any mutants in it…but neither did 18 of July’s top 25 best-selling titles. There aren’t many books that center around a female protagonist, and FA was outsold by many of the ones in which the woman in question jumps around in her underwear…but it also got outsold by a few in which the lead female was quite sensibly-dressed.
As far as needing answers spoon-fed…hey, I stuck in there through to the end of “Watchmen” and to the last episode of “Babylon 5” and “The Prisoner.” I made it to the end of “Ulysses” and “On The Road.” More often than I can count, through movies, books, comics, and television I’ve been confronted by a story in which I had no idea where the author was going but I was enjoying the scenery enough to stay on the bus.
But I bailed on FA. I eagerly bought #1, I bought #2. I read #3 and put it back on the rack, did the same with #4, hoping that I’d find a compelling reason to buy…but that’s the last I’ve seen of it. No harm, no foul; it just didn’t click with me.
Some stories (to paraphrase Roger Ebert) are like waiting for a bus in a town where you don’t know what the bus schedule is…or, in fact, if the town actually has bus service. If there isn’t a special something in the story that keeps the readers engaged…they bail. Chester Brown’s “Underwater” is a textbook example. Every panel of every page was, literally, gibberish. And I kept up with it for a couple of issues, because I wanted to see where Brown was going with it. But eventually I got the impression that he wasn’t going anywhere at all. It wasn’t an interesting book, and I stopped buying it. If FA’s readers are delighted with the book, then I’m happy for ’em. But this isn’t English Lit and FA isn’t a copy of “Ethan Frome” that I’m forced to write a paper about. When a comic ceases to be interesting, I have no obligation to continue reading it, you know?
I should stress that I’m not arguing that the factors you cite are irrelevant. As a writer who deals with publishers, I’m all too familiar with the problem of a book that was launched poorly, or marketed incorrectly. But the fact remains that I’d be more impressed by these complaints if they acknowledged the simple, baffling, and utterly frustrating explanation of why so many creative endeavors fail:
“I did my best and I’m proud of my work; but it’s entirely possible that intelligent and reasonable people took a careful look at it and then said ‘No, thanks.'”
Buster Keaton’s “The General” flopped, despite aggressive marketing and promotion. So did “Showgirls,” given similar support from its studio. It happens to the good stuff and the less-good stuff. You can’t predict what a reader will or won’t like.
But if the publisher and the retailers are factors in a title’s lack of success…then surely, so is the author.
That said, you have indeed inspired me to give FA another chance. You realize that it was never a case of my determining that “This book stinks and it’ll never get any better.” I just got tired of waiting for that bus. I look forward to seeing what you did with this series after #4.
“CBIA participation gets you that “Good Guy” status for many whom you can’t normally have that personal relationship with. I urge you to ponder that when considering the opportunity a dialogue with industry professionals in the CBIA might bring.”
Okay, well, but…couldn’t it also backfire? I mean, I’ve been thinking further about it, and you know, I tend to be bluntly honest with people when they ask me stuff. All I need is for one or two retailers who–I dunno–know and hate my politics to start sniping at me. And if I fire back, isn’t it possible that I could wind up alienating the very people I’m endeavoring to court? I’m not sure it’s a risk worth taking. I may wind up dámņëd if I do, so perhaps it’s smarter if I don’t.
PAD
“Forgive my bluntness, but yeah, that’s snotty. If your idea of selling FA is to tell people they’re stupid if they don’t understand it, then it really is a lost cause.”
Excuse me, but I don’t think that occurred here. PAD seems to have gone into great detail in explaining that all the elements needed to comprehend the book ARE ALREADY WRITTEN IN THERE if one is careful enough to spy them. Readers who are discerning enough CAN spot the conflicting emotions that are in play here.
However, there seems to be too many comics readers today who demand A LITERAL EXPLANATION for EVERYTHING that occurs, as if the ONLY guy who’s allowed to employ metaphor and symbolism in modern comics is Alan Moore, or that emotions presented in characters need to be said out loud. Sorry, but I DON’T NEED my comics stories to time warp back to the era of Mort Weisinger in order for me to understand them.
If anything has been hurting chances of FALLEN ANGEL succeeding in the marketplace, it’s mostly the fact that DC DOESN’T SEEM TO CARE if it sells at all.
KET
Actually, I think Hibbs’ observation about the glut of comics is the most telling. At the current level of prices, and especially with no returns allowed, no dealer can carry everything, even if they somehow have the rack space. How can any title rise above the glut “noise level” and catch the eye of potential readers — readers who’ll then go out of their way to pre-order it from their favorite comic shop? How indeed.
It was simpler when comics were cheap. You bought a pile each week, starting with your “must-haves,” and then, with the money left over, you grabbed a few new, interesting comics that caught your eye. If you didn’t like any of the new stuff, you threw them in the trash, or gave/traded them to a friend, and tried something different the next time you went to the spinner rack.
But today, comics, graphic novels and comics-related books are so expensive (since 1968, comic prices have escalated at a rate that is four times the rate of inflation) I find myself buying just what I really want, and there is rarely anything left over for any experimentation.
However, there seems to be too many comics readers today who demand A LITERAL EXPLANATION for EVERYTHING that occurs, as if the ONLY guy who’s allowed to employ metaphor and symbolism in modern comics is Alan Moore, or that emotions presented in characters need to be said out loud. Sorry, but I DON’T NEED my comics stories to time warp back to the era of Mort Weisinger in order for me to understand them.
I think I’ve mentioned this in other threads.
I think that it’s not often recognized that comics have become somewhat stylized, and have developed preferred ways of transmitting plot, character and motivation. It sometimes is a bit impenetrable to non-experienced comic readers.
I think FALLEN ANGEL does not fit a lot of these stylizations, which makes it hard for readers to connect. But PAD is right; the text is all there to get the characterization and motivation, but I have to note that it is VERY minimalistic and spare (and again, not unlike real life).
But if the publisher and the retailers are factors in a title’s lack of success…then surely, so is the author.
I don’t think that’s a point of view is worth noting from the author’s perspective. It would seem to lead to self-doubt and second guessing. As the author, you have to believe your work is good. Otherwise, why create it?
Not sure if this’d work, but maybe you could write a short prose story that gives folk an idea what to expect from the book, then plug the heck out of it on the news and review sites, including a link to said story (which’d be freely available online). Essentially, a free promo copy, but one that would only cost you to produce (I would suggest an intro comics story posted on the DC website, but that’d cost money for the art and, honestly, I’m not sure how DC would feel about FA-level material on their relatively kid-friendly website [admittedly I’ve not given it a major look to see what Vertigo has up there]).
Which ties into my wondering if you have the rights and would consider an FA novel, either in conjunction with the ongoing series or separately if it doesn’t make it.
Not a single thing in any of the above should have been too complicated to be grasped by readers giving it any thought.
When you say it’s unexplained, what you reall mean is…I didn’t explain it to you. And it’s just kind of sad that I would need to.
I’m not comfortable with that phrasing, Mr. David, but I’ll assume it’s not intended in the tone I perceived.
At any rate, as I said before, I feel there’s a big difference between spelling everything out and providing SOME degree of clarity. It’s one thing for the plot to be opaque; Andy mentioned “Watchmen”, but I could also point to Frank Miller’s “Ronin” as an example. In such cases, I was patient enough to watch the story slowly unravel because the characters were compelling enough to keep me interested.
But when the protagonist of the book is a complete cipher, an apparent mass of contradictions to whom I have no access, it’s quite another thing. It certainly doesn’t help that, even leaving aside the issue of Juris, I still see her as a very inconsistent character: how many times can she protest to not give a dámņ about anything while being so obviously invested in EVERYTHING that goes on?
And it’s not as though there’s another character in this book I can relate to: you’ve got Hitler running a bar, Juris masterminding every dark and ugly thing that goes on in town, Black Mariah is a monster, Asia’s a drug dealer, etc. It’s a bit reminiscient of Mark Millar’s “Wanted” in that the cast is so thoroughly unlikeable that I end up not caring about any of them. And if the plot is deliberately obscure and the characters don’t engage me, what exactly am I looking for here that I can’t find in any other part of your considerable body of work?
“And if the plot is deliberately obscure and the characters don’t engage me, what exactly am I looking for here that I can’t find in any other part of your considerable body of work?”
Depth.
PAD
“And if the plot is deliberately obscure and the characters don’t engage me, what exactly am I looking for here that I can’t find in any other part of your considerable body of work?”
>Depth.
>PAD
As a fan of several of your previous projects and a reader who dropped Fallen Angel after 6 or 7 issues, I think that you are selling yourself short here.
Fred Chamberlain
Just for clarification, [i]Fallen Angel[/i] and all related characters are owned by DC, correct? Because I think the concept might actually work better as a prose novel. If you own the characters, take them back and use them somewhere else. And even if [i]Fallen Angel[/i] is work-for-hire and owned by DC, the company seems to have a strong relationship with ibooks right now, with a trilogy of hardback books featuring three different Green Lanterns. Perhaps you cound convince them to publish a [i]Fallen Angel[/i]novel that way.
Please forgive the formatting above. I got my tags confused. 😛
“Okay, well, but…couldn’t it also backfire? I mean, I’ve been thinking further about it, and you know, I tend to be bluntly honest with people when they ask me stuff. All I need is for one or two retailers who–I dunno–know and hate my politics to start sniping at me. And if I fire back, isn’t it possible that I could wind up alienating the very people I’m endeavoring to court? I’m not sure it’s a risk worth taking. I may wind up dámņëd if I do, so perhaps it’s smarter if I don’t.”
Believe it or not, you’re politically to the right of several of the publishers/writers who participate in the CBIA. But it doesn’t matter.
A couple of things. We really avoid political discussions there. There are some joking political comments now and then, and once in a while a political thread, but if it does happen things are kept civil.
Also, there are several moderators, myself being one of them, who’s primary jobs are to keep the civility and professionalism high on the board.
From my few years of experience, people might make nasty comments towards a publishers publishing habits, delivery schedules, or selling early at conventions, but they tend to be nice about political viewpoints…:P
Jerry Wall
As a fan of several of your previous projects and a reader who dropped Fallen Angel after 6 or 7 issues, I think that you are selling yourself short here.
Agreed. I’ve had the privilege of reading some AMAZING work you’ve done, Mr. David; stories that were meaningful and witty and emotionally evocative and deep without being practically unfathomable, stories that I treasure to this very day. I respect your enthusiasm for “Fallen Angel”, even if I can’t share it, but “shallow” is not a word I associate with your writing, past or present. So please don’t ask me to.
From Peter David:
It’s possible. Usually, though, the discussions are pretty civil, and moderator Robert Scott keeps an eye on them to make sure that they don’t get too out of hand.
David Seidman
Okay, let’s try this again.
From Peter David:
I tend to be bluntly honest with people when they ask me stuff. All I need is for one or two retailers [on the CBIA boards] who–I dunno–know and hate my politics to start sniping at me. And if I fire back, isn’t it possible that I could wind up alienating the very people I’m endeavoring to court?
And from me:
It’s possible. Usually, though, the discussions are pretty civil, and moderator Robert Scott keeps an eye on them to make sure that they don’t get out of hand.
David Seidman
Peter David: >>There’s the Angel, having run the gamut of emotions through the previous five issues. A lot has been said to her. The Shard has made her face emotions she thought she’d locked away. She stands there, outside the window of the ostensibly evil Black Mariah, whom the Angel sees herself as superior to. And she sees that even this woman is capable of loving someone, of giving of herself. She runs key comments through her mind and comes to the realization that, yes, even she is worthy of experiencing love. Of “staying to watch the sun come up,” i.e., see the light. Know warmth. It’s a knowledge that makes her smile. The shard, as promised, has given her what she needed. For the first time in the run of the series…she smiles.
And she goes to Juris…and he rejects her, apparently sick of her holding back. Her revelation is too late…but she’s too proud to beg and quickly builds the wall around herself again.
That was a very poweful scene. Hard to admit, but it almost bought a tear to my eyes.
“I think that it’s not often recognized that comics have become somewhat stylized, and have developed preferred ways of transmitting plot, character and motivation. It sometimes is a bit impenetrable to non-experienced comic readers.”
I’m not sure that’s the case. It seems to me that a book like FALLEN ANGEL would have more basic APPEAL to non-comics readers, as it continues to buck the current trend in comics towards nostalgia and over-stylized cliche. Perhaps this is the series’ biggest marketing stumbling block, since this doesn’t fit DC’s all-too-typical standard for hyperbole.
“I think FALLEN ANGEL does not fit a lot of these stylizations, which makes it hard for readers to connect. But PAD is right; the text is all there to get the characterization and motivation, but I have to note that it is VERY minimalistic and spare (and again, not unlike real life).”
Well, ‘life-like’ may be the common objective here. Certainly a continuing series wherein one can’t simply take any character at face value does seem to fly in the face of the current ‘image conscious’ nature of today’s society.
(For an off-hand example, was it the exposure of Janet’s breast that was offending, or the fact that she seemed to be the first CELEBRITY to get away with it in front of millions of free TV watchers? Would it have been less offending if the breast had belonged to Paris Hilton?)
KET
From PAD:
But you say it’s unexplained.
Not a single thing in any of the above should have been too complicated to be grasped by readers giving it any thought.
When you say it’s unexplained, what you reall mean is…I didn’t explain it to you. And it’s just kind of sad that I would need to.
And by the way…issue #16 reveals that Juris’ rejection of her is not all that it seems.
You should really be reading this book. It really is my best work.
—
My Comments:
A) I agree with Peter. This is his best work.
B) It’s all “unexplained.”
Well, dammit. I’m tired of being spoon fed.
I LIKE intrigue. I like having to guess. I like having to interpret things for myself. If you don’t like things left unresolved, or unexplained, you probably didn’t like DS9, or the end of Pulp Fiction.
Fiction used to be about making people think, and now most of the time it’s about meeting the Lowest Common Denominator.
I think what Peter has done here has challenged his readers into making them work a little harder in enjoying the story.
Now, sometimes, the intrigue goes too far. Like the X-Files. I mean, seven years and we still had the same crap over and over again. No one evolved. Nothing changed.
But FA changes… and grows… and it’s not the same crap over and over again.
So, Peter, bring it on (to steal from John Kerry)! I love this book, and I will be greatly disappointed if it is cancelled.
Travis
So you want someone to buy Brian’s shelf copy of Fallen Angel? Is the store anywhere near Central Texas?
Travis’ Comments:
>A) I agree with Peter. This is his best work.
Opinions being subjective, we really can’t debate this to any conclusion.
>B) It’s all “unexplained.”
>Well, dammit. I’m tired of being spoon fed. I LIKE intrigue. I like having to guess. I like having to interpret things for myself. If you don’t like things left unresolved, or unexplained, you probably didn’t like DS9, or the end of Pulp Fiction.
I like intrigue as well and have no need to be spoon fed. I do, however, need to feel emotionally effected by a storie and/or its characters. With Fallen Angel, I simply don’t. Many do and that is cool, but this can’t be projected onto me. Different tastes. No harm, no foul.
>Fiction used to be about making people think, and now most of the time it’s about meeting the Lowest Common Denominator.
I won’t argue this. What I would disagree with is an assumption that someone who doesn’t dig this book, is lacking any of the qualities that you’ve stated above.
>I think what Peter has done here has challenged his readers into making them work a little harder in enjoying the story.
This may be quite true and has been for a plethora of writers throughout the ages. Some of whom I enjoy, others who I don’t. The lagging sales may be partially attributed to many fans not wanting to think for themselves, but the jump that you are making here is way past that that an Olympian athlete could achieve, IMO.
>Now, sometimes, the intrigue goes too far. Like the X-Files. I mean, seven years and we still had the same crap over and over again. No one evolved. Nothing changed.
But FA changes… and grows… and it’s not the same crap over and over again.
I read 7 or so issues and it did move forward. It did grow…. only not on me.
>So, Peter, bring it on (to steal from John Kerry)! I love this book, and I will be greatly disappointed if it is cancelled.
For the sake of all those who enjoy it and for the author who loves working on it, so do I.
Fred
Re Juris and FA splitting up and her apparent reaction to it.
That didn’t bother me. It really did seem to make sense. Question being, how will that affect their ‘working’ relationship, weird as it already was?
Perhaps things shaking loose from the aftereffects will shed some desperately wanted light as to just what the heck is going on in the background which may, in turn explain some of the otherwise hair-pullingly incomprehensible bits (such as the thing with Benny still being out and apparently relatively free to do his repulsive thing.)
Peter is probably my favourite comic book writer and I’ve bought every issue of FA to date. Also I can tell how much Peter loves writing this title. Unfortunately I have to say it really isn’t anywhere near the top of my list of ‘Great Peter David comics’. I can’t really explain why, maybe I’m not looking for incredible depth from a comic book, maybe that’s not why I read comic books.
The simple test for me comes from the fact that I get one shipment of comics a month from mail order. There are probably around 50 books a month in the box. Great titles are those that I pull out of the pile first, there have been many of Peter’s titles that have been on that list, ‘Young Justice’, ‘Supergirl’, ‘Incredible Hulk’, ‘Captain Marvel’, but sadly not ‘Fallen Angel’.
Back on the maybe list, maybe I just don’t like the characters, doesn’t matter how well you write them. The more I think about it the less it’s a maybe, I just don’t care about or like any of the characters.