We live in confusing times from a sexual preference point of view. I mean, here you’ve got the Governor of NJ who’s been married twice and has two daughters…and then comes to the conclusion he’s gay. Which worried me because, hey, I’m twice married and I’ve got four daughters, so maybe I’m twice as gay and just don’t know it.
Well, thanks to the Olympics, I’ve discovered something that has proven to me, conclusively, where my preferences lie.
Women’s Beach Volleyball.
I could watch that for hours. I dunno what the hëll this thing is doing in the Olympics, and I absolutely couldn’t care less. Although when you think about it, and how scantily clad the participants are, it comes the closest to the original spirit of the Olympics considering that the participants used to compete in the nude.
Hunh. I wonder what the ratings would be like if they reinstituted that rule.
PAD
• 
For the (relatively) serious side of this, there’s no *official* cause or time when someone can become gay. Some people don’t realize it their entire lives; some feel the need to marry, because it’s more socially acceptable (especially if you go back a few decades) or because they want to try and change themselves. There are plenty of gay folks who have had spouses and who have biological children. (And to sermonize further, every time Bush talks about how only a man and a woman can have children, every single parent and couple who’ve adopted kids should be outraged — and express it!)
And at the risk of being a killjoy, the talk about nude Olympics reminds me of the SEINFELD where Jerry’s girlfriend walked around the apartment nude, to his eventual dismay. To paraphrase, “There’s good naked and bad naked. Combing her hair — good naked. Opening a jar of pickles — bad naked.” I, for one, would not relish the thought of a muscular shot-putter.
And since what’s good for the goose is good for the gander (he said, using an antiquated phrase during a discussion of homosexuality and nude Olympics), if men get naked female volleyball then women should get their own sport filled with naked me. Ladies, I’d love to hear you vote on what event that would be…
Pack,
Could it be that this man you’ve heard of may actually have changed his ways willingly and genuinely? People can and do change. Even sexuality. It may not be so easily changed like one can change a hairstyle, but it can happen.
You assume that this man is pressured into living a lie. Maybe something in his life made him change and want to change.
I say this not to support the bigotry of the writer who was glad that the man was “saved” from homosexuality. But because I refuse to think that human behavior is just something that’s carved in stone, that we cannot become anything but what we are right now.
We reinvent ourselves with every day, every choice we make. Those little changes, over time can add up to major turnarounds in one’s life, their beliefs, personality, and yes… even sexuality.
Who knows… Maybe PAD will develop a taste for MEN’S Beach Volleyball !!! 😉 (I Just HAD to bring the thread drift back on topic)
“And since what’s good for the goose is good for the gander (he said, using an antiquated phrase during a discussion of homosexuality and nude Olympics), if men get naked female volleyball then women should get their own sport filled with naked me. Ladies, I’d love to hear you vote on what event that would be…”
I’m sorry, did you say their own sport filled with naked you? Well boy howdy, aren’t you just God’s gift to women of the world.
Well, ladies, you heard him. Vote on what Olympic sport you’d want to see a naked James Lynch participate in.
PAD
“”if men get naked female volleyball then women should get their own sport filled with naked me. Ladies, I’d love to hear you vote on what event that would be…””
“I’m sorry, did you say their own sport filled with naked you? Well boy howdy, aren’t you just God’s gift to women of the world.
Well, ladies, you heard him. Vote on what Olympic sport you’d want to see a naked James Lynch participate in.”
My goof — that shoulda been “women should get their own sport filled with naked MEN.” What would the Internet be without typos? Feel free to respond for your ideal sport for all-nude men.
And if women *do* want to have an Olympic sport filled with a naked James Lynch, hope you like Greco-Redhead athleticism!
It’s good to know what they use the wasted fabric for the swim team’s suits… They make the women’s volleyball costumes.
Misty May……*homer drool*…um, anyway, yes, it is getting a lot of coverage…hmmm, I wonder why?
And I agree with Tim….Khorkina looks anorexic.
If they brought back the nudity they would probably have to bring back that other rule. you know, the one about women not being allowed in upon pain of death.
Me, I find those little skimpy volleyball outfits way sexist. If women have to compete in that, then the men should have to compete in a speedo with no shirt, not those nice, comfortable shorts and shirts.
But then we all know that women are only to be oggled!
Raven,
Please get a grip. Would you rather they competed in clothing that was more restrictive? You know, most women who get to that level of competition are PROUD of their bodies. I will never understand feminists who fought against the days when women had to “cover up”, wear skirts, and couldn’t be taken seriously wearing makeup who yelp everytime a woman is dressed in a sexy manner or a beautiful woman is portrayed as such.
Athletes such as Serena Williams and maria Sharapova dress in much more revealing outfits than, say, Chris Evert. Why, because they’re more comfortable physically and with their bodies.
Please lighten up. You’ll live longer.
“Me, I find those little skimpy volleyball outfits way sexist. If women have to compete in that, then the men should have to compete in a speedo with no shirt, not those nice, comfortable shorts and shirts.
“But then we all know that women are only to be oggled!”
Well I, for one, have never oggled a woman in my life. In terms of ogling, yes, I’ve done my share of that. But you fall prey to a common mistake: You think it’s either/or. If women with athletic bodies are scantily clad and are appreciated on that basis, you think it’s impossible to think of them as anything other than sex objects. And that’s a load of crap.
Was it the fact that they were wearing little pieces of cloth that caught my attention? Hëll yeah.
But what keeps me coming back is, my God, what fantastic athletes. You could field a team of six guys against these women and they’d still mop the floor (or sand) with them. Walsh, in particular: You watch her and it’s like she’s psychic. Rather than reacting to the ball, she watches her opponents and I can only think she’s reading their body language, because she moves toward where the ball’s going to go before it’s even hit. She gets crossed up occasionally, but mostly no.
And by the way, I seem to remember that male swimmers used to wear little speedos, before they switched to these new outfits that I assume cut down on friction. Were you busy complaining about sexism in that case, or is it only unacceptable when women are showing skin?
PAD
As a young man…NOTHING compares to Mesn Swimming! I could watch that all day! Thank goodness for the pause button.
This is only tangentially related, but check this out for a good laugh. PhotoShop fun!
Oops! somehow the link disappeared. here it is.
Trying yet again…
http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=1060485
Ah! third time’s the charm, i guess. interestingly amusing “guy” thread – don’t seem to see any women around here – and i’m not even watching that thing in Greece.
but personally, if i were, i’d take women’s diving and swimming over beach volleyball any day….
It should be noted that some of the female volleyball players (notably the reigning gold medal holders) have been complaining about how the Greeks have been presenting the sport, that they’ve been playing it up as some sort of tittilation fest and not as athletic competition. A fair concern.
Meanwhile, if you want to see real sexism in costuming, don’t look to the volleyball court. Look to the air pistol competition, where you’ll find the only woman on the Iranian Olympics team (you’ll probably have to look carefully on your ReplayTV for it, since she’s already out of competition.) There you’ll find Nassim Hassanpur competing in a full-length coat and head scarf. And if you read about her somewhere besides Aljazeera, you’ll see that Nassim is competing in air pistol only because the sport that she trained all her life for, gymnastics, is one in which she cannot compete while wearing the outfit that Iran demands that she wear.
Nat,
Thank you. You bring up a “fair concern”. While at the same time presenting a real example of a woman being oppressed by her culture.
Honestly, sometimes I think we’re all so uptight over every little thing. It’s not good. We need to rediscover our sense of humor and just enjoy life.
But you fall prey to a common mistake: You think it’s either/or. If women with athletic bodies are scantily clad and are appreciated on that basis, you think it’s impossible to think of them as anything other than sex objects.
No, actually, I’m not falling prey to that mistake. You were the one who brought up their scantily clad-ness. You were the one who said watching them reaffirmed your hope that you were still heterosexual. NOW you’re talking about their athletic skills. So… you’re not gay because they’re really good atheletes? C’mon, PAD.
You might very well appreciate their prowess as atheletes, but you didn’t say that in the post, didja?
Were you busy complaining about sexism in that case, or is it only unacceptable when women are showing skin?
It’s unacceptable when women are showing skin only because they’re women. It could be that those skimpy little outfits are skimpy for a reason. Maybe it helps them play volleyball better – but considering the state of society, I doubt it. (But, hey, if an Olympic volleyballer wants to come tell me I’m wrong, I’d be willing to accept that) Why aren’t they wearing an outfit similar – but appropriate to them – to the men’s team?
And, hey, if they WANT to run around in that stuff for men’s amusement, that’s fine. But I demand equal time. More buff, muscled men in their undies!
Nat pointed out the thing about the Iranian air pistoler, which I had heard about. And he’s absolutely right, that just sucks. But it doesn’t detract from my point. If it’s true that the female volleyball team has complained, it doesn’t make their issue less REAL sexism than the Iraniam female’s issue. You just find one wrong and the other not, perhaps.
You ever wonder if somewhere a feminist is actually criticizing lesbians for admiring half naked scantily clad women? Or better yet, some feminist somewhere is calling women hypocrites because they’re ogling half-naked scantily clad men. I mean, if it’s such a BAD thing, why ask for equal opportunity to do it? Seems like the mission would be to get everyone to STOP doing it.
Jerome:Sorry,i didnt tape the match but it was a beautiful thing:)
Nat: I read today that there is a female athlete from Bahrain who will compete in a track event in her full garb.Thats just bloody ridiculous to ask this of someone ,its like competing in a 40 yard dash in a potato sack!:(
Raven: Just my opinion but I appreciate women for athletic ability and the end results it has in making a beautiful body.Nothing wrong with that
but is DEMANDING more “buff men in their undies “
sexist in your opinion???Just curious.
Raven,
Again, it’s mostly oversensitive people like yourself who seem to think any display of sexuality is “sexist” that has these women feeling like they should say something.
And for you to state “it doesn’t make their issue less REAL sexism than the Iranian female’s issue” just shows that
A.) You have no sense of perspective. The Iranian can’t even COMPETE IN HER CHOSEN SPORT. Somehow i think she would change places with the volleyballers any day. So quick question: How many of the volleyballers do you think would want to change places with the Iranian, since the “sexism” is so evenly bad and all.
B.) You seem to feel that any appreciation of women’s physical attributes automaticaly negates any other qualities somone may see – agrressiveness, passion – that makes them sexy.
C.)You fail to realize that REPRESSION of sexuality has always been used to OPPRESS women. Chastity belts ring a bell? There are still cultures on this planet where a woman can be beaten or worse if she is not a virgin with when her mate/husband is “with” her for the first time. In fact, in some countries, women have taken to surgicaly repairing the hymen to fool their husbands that they are a virgin if they HAVE had sex with someone else.
Why don’t you focus on these serious issues if you want to focuson the true oppression of women?
I find beauty in many kinds of women, and most women I know like it when i tell them i think they look good.
Of course, maybe i just hang around strong, confident, sexy women who aren’t so desperate to be taken seriously they make it impossible to do so.
Raven:
**If it’s true that the female volleyball team has complained, it doesn’t make their issue less REAL sexism than the Iraniam female’s issue.**
Yes, some of the Australian women have complained… but not about the outfits they wear. Go over to http://www.nataliecook.com — that’s the home page of one of the folks complaining — and tell me if you think that’s the home page of someone who doesn’t want to be seen in skimpy outfits. The complaints are more about things like cheerleaders in mini bikinis, and pop music being played between points.
And men on the pro beach volleyball tour frequently play topless. It’s not a sport that encourages clothing.
jerome maida – jesus christ… it’s people like you who perpetuate the idea that the goals of feminism have been accomplished. it hurts me to hear you speak so self-assuredly about the sexual objectification of women (but of anyone, for that matter)
sometimes i wonder if it’s still worth fighting for
“No, actually, I’m not falling prey to that mistake. You were the one who brought up their scantily clad-ness. You were the one who said watching them reaffirmed your hope that you were still heterosexual. NOW you’re talking about their athletic skills. So… you’re not gay because they’re really good atheletes? C’mon, PAD.”
No, YOU c’mon. Sure, I was talking about how attractive they were. But your response was to say that women only existed to be ogled (I’m sorry, “oggled.”) So I expanded upon my earlier comments and said that I also appreciated their athleticism to counter *your* contention that they were merely eye candy. Your response is to pretend you didn’t make the comment that I was responding to. Sheesh.
PAD
Hey, Oversensitive,
Didn’t see anything in Jerome’s post about the goals of feminsim having been accomplished. You’re projecting, dear.
“sometimes i wonder if it’s still worth fighting for”
Then don’t. You’ll just be getting in the way.
God help my daughters if this is any example of the sorry state state of feminism today.
This is unrelated to the current feminism discussion but this is hilarious. This will appeal to you weather you are a Bush Supporter or a Kerry supporter. Takes a few seconds to download. This is so funny.
http://www.jibjab.com
click on THIS LAND (it has the picture of Kerry & Bush hugging.)
I don’t know if anyone else has seen this but I tell you this appeals to bith side 🙂
Joe V.
Jeez people, *I’m* the oversensitive one? Pot? Kettle? Phone call!
I find it most interesting that I started out by talking in general terms about something I personally found sexist, now suddenly I’m being accused of oppressing female sexuality and creating false dichotomies (which, as it happens, I didn’t do… PAD did) and being a HORRIBLE FEMINIST just because I think it’s sexist for women to be objectified. I think the reason why there was such violent backlash against what I said is because maybe you guys are feeling a little threatened. Or maybe feeling guilty.
At any rate, you’re all assuming a lot about me, my motives, even my thoughts. And, as long as you continue to do so, we can’t have a reasoned debate. I know you’re used to fighting the good fight against right wing whackos, but I’m not one of them. Think of it from my perspective. It’s like a black person (which I am, so I’ve experienced this, too – and no, I’m truly not having a Bill O’Reilly moment, so stick with me) coming into a group of white guys joking about, say, the myth that all black men have huge pëņìšëš. Or Peter coming in on a conversation about how all jews are rich because of some vast Jewish conspiracy. The people making these statements may see them as harmless. They may not even MEAN them in a harmful way. But it wouldn’t make the black guy or the jewish guy ‘oversensitive’ if they voiced an objection to the subject.
You don’t have to agree with me, but if you’re first reaction to every disagreement is to attack and call names, then you’re just not very mature boys, are you? All I’m asking for here is respect for my opinions and views, and not vague assumptions just because ‘that feminist bìŧçh’ happens to have called you on something you just might be guilty of.
As far as I know, feminists do criticize women for objectifying other women. (and this IS about objectification, not sex. YOU guys are the ones assuming sex is involved, repressed or not) Now me, I want more scantily clad men if we’re going to continue to have scnatily clad women. If this somehow bothers you, then you should take a peek behind why that is. It’s wrong for me to want half nekkid men but not wrong for you to want half nekkid women? Uh huh. Good one.
Oh, and for those who argued against the sexism being evenly bad, let me just say that it reminds me of the righties who said about Abu Garib: “Yes, but what we did wasn’t NEARLY as bad as what Saddam used to do! So it’s okay.”
Uh huh, I buy that argument, too.
“Jeez people, *I’m* the oversensitive one? Pot? Kettle? Phone call!
I find it most interesting that I started out by talking in general terms about something I personally found sexist, now suddenly I’m being accused of oppressing female sexuality and creating false dichotomies (which, as it happens, I didn’t do… PAD did) and being a HORRIBLE FEMINIST just because I think it’s sexist for women to be objectified. I think the reason why there was such violent backlash against what I said is because maybe you guys are feeling a little threatened. Or maybe feeling guilty.”
I think they’re just pìššëd at being called perverts, which is what your little “Of course, women only exist to be oggled!” comment did. And now that they’ve taken offense, you’re taking refuge in your own passive/aggressiveness. “Oh, I didn’t say anything mean to you, I was just talking generally about the same topic you were talking about when I made those snide comments!” Do grow up.
And how in the Samuel Langhorne Hëll did PAD oppress female sexuality and create false dichotomies by daying, “Boy, I sure like women’s volleyball!” It baffles logic how you can conclude a man saying he likes seeing women in minimal clothing jump around is oppressing sexuality. Female sexuality? He’s soaking in it!
“At any rate, you’re all assuming a lot about me, my motives, even my thoughts.”
As are you. But go ahead and tell us, what exactly were your motives in sandwiching your point between a snarky comment about Ancient Greeks killing women and a veiled accusation of misogyny?
“And, as long as you continue to do so, we can’t have a reasoned debate.”
You’re half-right.
“I know you’re used to fighting the good fight against right wing whackos, but I’m not one of them. Think of it from my perspective. It’s like a black person (which I am, so I’ve experienced this, too – and no, I’m truly not having a Bill O’Reilly moment, so stick with me) coming into a group of white guys joking about, say, the myth that all black men have huge pëņìšëš. Or Peter coming in on a conversation about how all jews are rich because of some vast Jewish conspiracy. The people making these statements may see them as harmless. They may not even MEAN them in a harmful way. But it wouldn’t make the black guy or the jewish guy ‘oversensitive’ if they voiced an objection to the subject.”
And y’know, that would work if we were talking about all women, instead of one subset.
“You don’t have to agree with me, but if you’re first reaction to every disagreement is to attack and call names, then you’re just not very mature boys, are you?”
Oh, the irony laden in this statement. I think to start I’ll just savor the fact that you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about.
“All I’m asking for here is respect for my opinions and views, and not vague assumptions just because ‘that feminist bìŧçh’ happens to have called you on something you just might be guilty of.”
Don’t put something in quotes unless you’re quoting someone.
“As far as I know, feminists do criticize women for objectifying other women. (and this IS about objectification, not sex. YOU guys are the ones assuming sex is involved, repressed or not)”
That’s rich. What the heck kind of object do you think objectification is talking about, if not a sex object? That’s like saying, “This is about racism, not skin color.”
“Now me, I want more scantily clad men if we’re going to continue to have scnatily clad women. If this somehow bothers you, then you should take a peek behind why that is. It’s wrong for me to want half nekkid men but not wrong for you to want half nekkid women? Uh huh. Good one.”
Again, you’re accusing people of stuff they haven’t said. I don’t believe anyone here has said anything against half-naked men. In fact, I believe one offered to go all the way. Quit with the redirection tactics and address the points actually being made.
“Oh, and for those who argued against the sexism being evenly bad, let me just say that it reminds me of the righties who said about Abu Garib: “Yes, but what we did wasn’t NEARLY as bad as what Saddam used to do! So it’s okay.”
Uh huh, I buy that argument, too.”
Wow. Again, way off base. Unless you’re ready to equate people saying, “Boy, those women volleyballers sure look hot” with torture and humiliation. Which, y’know, is your right, bu tdon’t expect anyone to take you seriously.
Raven,
Around here we call that the “straw man” argument but in the interest of promoting A Better, More Equitable, World, we can call it a Straw Woman argument.
Still no substitute for reason but you gotta play the hand you’re dealt.
http://www.jibjab.com
click on THIS LAND (it has the picture of Kerry & Bush hugging.)
Raven:
Why exactly should I feel guilty about something that’s perfectly natural? Men react primarily to visual stimuli. It’s the one sense we have of the five that seems to outdo women’s, who have keener senses of smell, touch and hearing.
The proof is in the pudding. You want to get the average woman in the mood, you have to present a certain romantic ambience, music, lighting, candles and flowers.
For men, just jump out of a cake in a g-string. And you know, that works whether they’re gay or straight.
So,with Raven and PAD slugging it out, no one is voting for the sport to see a naked James Lynch in. Sigh…
Let’s be honest: Most men are watching women’s volleyball for prurient/lustful reasons. While it sounds like PAD started there and grew to enjoy the sport for the sport itself, most men (and probably some women) are drawn to it for the chance of seeing physically attractive women jumping, sweating, and jiggling while wearing extremely revealing outfits. To quote (or paraphrase) Merv Pumpkinhead, some of us aren’t afraid to call a spade a gøddámņ shovel.
So what? Is it news that men fantasize about women in swimsuits? (SPORTS ILLUSTRATED learned that lesson years ago.) Are these athletes being harmed by having more people watch them? If I had a body like theirs, I’d show it off every chance I got (he said, lessening his shot at a naked Olympic sport). These athletes decided to (I can’t imagine they arrived in Greece and were surprised with the news that they’d be wearing bikinis) and they get the admiration (admittedly lustful admiration) of men and an even bigger audience.
I agree with Raven — and said it before she did — that there should be as may scantily clad men as there are women. Let’s have an equal amount of d&a (dìçkš and ášš) and t&a out there. Either both genders can watch at completely different times, or compromise and see what one side likes may make the other side uncomfortable. (‘Sabit like a menage-a-toia: Most men love the idea, unless the 3rd person is another man.)
But the only person who said “we all know that women are only to be ogled (reverse sic)!” was you, Raven. No one said, or suggested, that women can only compete in skimpy outfits, or that it’s the only reason for the sport. The men are enjoying the view; it doesn’t mean that’s their entire perspective on women.
And for another view on men & women & appearances, in one of my favorite episodes of KING OF THE HILL, Hank Hill couldn’t get credit because of a late movie rental he didn’t make; the movie, Cuffs & Collars, turns out to be pørņ. As they stood in the alley discussing it, Bill (he of the bald head and beer gut) had one of my favorite comments on pørņ: “I’m glad. I’m glad I’m not the only one who is disgusted by pornography. It’s offensive, it’s disgusting, it creates a standard of idealized beauty that your average man cannot compete with.” (Of course, Bill turned out to be the one who rented the movie in the first place.)
**Posted by Scavenger at August 19, 2004 02:11 PM **
**Yeah, there’s the beach vollyball…the team volleyball..the gymnastics…wall to wall spanish coverage of soccer on Telemundo..but can I find Fencing on the schedule? noooooooo**
It’s shown during the hours normaly reserved for infomercials. 🙂 Not enough sex appeal/interest for the networks to show on prime time so they bury it there. But maybe if they gave the fencers updated costumes that showed off the bodies of the people underneath more maybe the networks’d be more inclined to show Fencing during prime time hours.
**Posted by Peter David at August 19, 2004 02:26 PM **
**Oh, and for you Legolas fans for whom sword play isn’t enough, there’s archery on MSNBC at 3 PM. **
**There’s only two downsides: First, archers will NOT be required to ride a shield down a flight of stairs while firing at moving targets who are trying to kill them so, y’know, that takes a lot of the challenge out of it. And second, it’s opposite women’s beach volleyball on Telemundo, so there’s a tough choice.**
**PAD**
**Posted by Tim Lynch at August 19, 2004 02:36 PM **
**I wouldn’t be surprised if the shield-surfing archery became an Olympic event in the next couple of decades, though. (Skimpy bikinis optional.) Very precognitive of you, PAD. **
Actually, I would place my bets on this sport becoming the next archery sport making the olympics:
http://intlhorsearchery.org/
It doesn’t have the archers sledding down a staircase while firing obviously, but doing it on horseback should appeal to enough LOTR fans to make it worth their while. And there’s enough interest in Asia, Europe, and the Americas to field enough international teams to make it a true competition for the gold. I’m sure the stadium designers can adjust the horse areanas to allow the horse archers in.
Chris
Oh, yeah. About the NJ Governor outing himself thing: I thought he came out just to deflect attention from (amongst other shady/illeagal things) the fact that he put his male lover on the state payroll rather than getting tired of ‘living in the closet’ for much of his life and deciding now was a good time to ‘come clean’ about it. And before someone slams me for being ‘bigoted’ or whatever, make the relationship hetro instead of homo for a moment. Notice that it is just as wrong for the governor doing it for a female lover as for a male lover.
In other words, if the guy didn’t voluntarily resign his post then he should have been fired from it.
My $.02 worth.
Chris
With all the different things happening on his governorship, he should be a little more than merely fired. However, I will give him credit — in a state as liberal as New Jersey is, he managed to find a way of leaving office that is guaranteed to guilt a good chunk of the population into wanting him to stay so they don’t feel prejudiced.
You know, I finally got to actually watch some Women’s Beach Volleyball last night, and after doing so, all I can say is:
This is what Raven finds demeaning?
Sorry, after all this talk I was expecting literal “dental floss” outfits that would make the producers of “Baywatch” blush and the constant promise/threat of a “Janet moment”.
But, what I saw instead were outfits that seem to be natural for the sport, that basically reveal legs and midriff and not much else. There is NO CLEAVAGE. Heck, Serena Williams designs outfits that are arguably more revealing, and she definitely shows more of her chest during competition.
So, I would just say that while it is fun watching attractive women engaging in athletic activity, the required outfit is far from demeaning. And it enables you to appreciate their athletic talents.
Honestly, one of my athletic heroes was Flo Hyman, who played indoor volleyball at the ’84 Games. She was so good, so dominant, whenever I would play volleyball in high school I would pretend i was Flo Hyman. Sadly, she died of a very rare heart ailment less than a month after those Olympics were over.
What a shame that was. She was a great athlete.
“Why exactly should I feel guilty about something that’s perfectly natural? Men react primarily to visual stimuli. It’s the one sense we have of the five that seems to outdo women’s, who have keener senses of smell, touch and hearing.
The proof is in the pudding.”
Mmmm…pudding…
“You want to get the average woman in the mood, you have to present a certain romantic ambience, music, lighting, candles and flowers. For men, just jump out of a cake in a g-string. And you know, that works whether they’re gay or straight.”
Actually, that reminds me of an exchange from a Harrison Ford/Ann Heche film called “Six Days, Seven Nights” (or something like that.) She plays the editor of a women’s magazine, and his two-fisted airplane flying character expresses his contempt of the editorial content, and he says something like: “I saw the cover of the latest issue. ‘Ten Ways to Get Him In the Mood On Your Next Date.’ What a load of crap. You wanna know what a woman has to do to get a man in the mood? Show up. That’s it, that’s all. Now go print that.”
PAD
PAD
I am addicted to the Olympics and watch almost every sport that comes on (thankfully, perhaps, in Canada where I am there is only one channel with Olympic coverage). That includes beach vollyball. I watched it for a while, enjoying the game and the atheticim of the women (haven’t seen the men’s version yet). After a while, I started noticing that the women have *really* *cute* bums, and just all-around fabulous bodies. So then I started enjoying that aspect of the game, too, but it was only an aspect. I’ve talked to other women (I assume they’re het; I am bi) who think they have smokin’ áššëš, too. 🙂
So, when I saw PAD’s post, I laughed and though, “so true, so true!” But I don’t like the nasty debate in the comments about how feminism sucks (I am a feminist), whether this is objectifying women (I don’t think it is), etc.
It’s not that complicated. I DO agree that the male beach vollyballers should be in similar outfits if they’re not already (again, I haven’t seen them yet) and if a lot of the women volleyballers complain about the outfits, then, sure, they should be changed. But for now, I think it’s fine to enjoy all aspects of the game. I know I certainly do for men’s swimming. 😀
Yolande,
Far as I can tell, no one posted a comment saying that “feminism sucks”. Please don’t be upset by what isn’t there.
Jerome
“Personally? I kind of want to slay the dragon!”
Jerome,
“Posted by ——— August 20, 2004 10:26 PM
God help my daughters if this is any example of the sorry state state of feminism today.”
My general sense of the comments is that some people aren’t directing their frustration at individual posters, but, like the poster above, at feminism in general.
But, that’s fine. Whatever. Let’s just enjoy the cute bums. 🙂
As a former Republican (Thank you GW for leaving me without a party) I admit I am offended by certain Olympic events. The Olympics should be about national pride as exhibited by individual athletes pursuing their dream of Gold. Instead, over the years, the games have been degraded to a glorified T&A contest. That being said I think we need to distinguish deviant thoughts from deviant behavior. As a male, if you see an attractive sixteen-year-old gymnast participating in her event with certain body parts that jiggle during her routine it is normal and natural for your body to physically react to the stimulus that it
Yolande,
I agree. Let’e enjoy the cute bums!
Jerome
“Personally? I kind of want to slay the dragon!”
Yolande:
“Posted by ——— August 20, 2004 10:26 PM
>>”God help my daughters if this is any example of the sorry state state of feminism today.”
>My general sense of the comments is that some people aren’t directing their frustration at individual posters, but, like the poster above, at feminism in general.
Although he may have some thoughts in particular about the state of feminism, the poster you refer to simply expressed concern for his daughters if the current state of feminism matches your viewpoints. Not necessarily the most polite thing to say, but he was directing his remark at your comments and questioning the current state of feminism from what I gathered.
Fred
Lester,
Your post, for the most part, was very well articulated and thought out. However, your blanket statement that “over the years,the games have been degraded into a glorified T & A contest” is, quite frankly, ridiculous. They are the SUMMER Olympics. Of course they are, for the most part are going to wear loose-fitting, comfortable clothing or as little as possible. I was watching the Men’s Water Polo game about a hour ago. Naturally, the men only had swim trunks. What else would, or should, they wear?
As far as national pride, you obviously haven’t been watching the reactions of nations playing us in Men’s Basketball (should they wear sweats to cover their legs?)and trying for their own “Miracle On Ice” moment. And then there are the athletes who don’t have a snowball’s chance in hëll of winning a medal, but are representing their country with pride. There are literally thousands of inspirational stories one could glean from these Olympics if one so chose. To overlook all of that and to choose to focus on and be offended by the human body, as if it were “dirty” somehow, is quite unfortunate.
Hm. Watching some of the women’s track prelims….talk about short shorts….
(and I think the European sprint champ is about 5’10” or six foot and is ALL leg….)
I really missed these lively discussions when not everyone could sign in.Raven the comparison of the comments about Black mens genitalia ,and the antijewish comments with us “ogling “women are not the same thing.The first two are racist,and stereotypical the second is an assumption on your part.If men appreciate an attractive woman’s body they are sexist?Also i believe everyone here also mentioned an appreciation for their athletic skills as well as “cute bums”
Not opposed to equal time for men with the D&A (thanks James for the new term),but how is it “ogling “men is okay but women not?Good for the goose ,good for the gander?If you feel ogling one is bad ,then ogling of the other is also bad.
After all wouldnt your objectifying men be sexist also???????
Yolanda says:
Jerome,
“Posted by ——— August 20, 2004 10:26 PM
God help my daughters if this is any example of the sorry state of feminism today.”
“My general sense of the comments is that some people aren’t directing their frustration at individual posters, but, like the poster above, at feminism in general.”
I think it’s pretty clear that my comment was a criticism of “An Oversensitive Feminist”, not of feminism in general. In particular her comment “sometimes i wonder if it’s still worth fighting for”. I mean, boo-freaking-hoo.
Just to clear up something Fred said, I wasn’t actually speaking to Yolanda–It was Ms. “And Oversensitive Feminist”, someone who is not only oversensitive, but anonymous to boot.
In my post I did not mean to condemn every aspect of the Olympic games. I have a tremendous amount of respect and reverence for each individual athlete that competes in the games. Each of them, in order to get the level of athletic perfection the Olympic games require its competitors to compete at, has had to sacrifice their entire lives going through a lifetime of grueling torturous training regimens. The vast majority of them go into a lifetime of training knowing that a payday will never materialize to reward their hard work. I still stand by my position that due to the need of marketing to a worldwide television audience the sprit of the games is lost in a sea of commercialism. Everything about the games, from the outfits of the athletes to the selection of which games make it on television is based on what will garner television ratings.
“Although when you think about it, and how scantily clad the participants are, it comes the closest to the original spirit of the Olympics considering that the participants used to compete in the nude.
Hunh. I wonder what the ratings would be like if they reinstituted that rule.”
Unfortunately, as Janet Jacksons ‘wardrobe malfunfuction’ proved, sports and nudity are an unacceptable combination.
As for the ‘whole scantilly clad women’ thing, the only thing I can say is that its BEACH volleyball.
What those women wear is a lot more than a lot of women wear to the beach.
I have a friend who trained as a member of the East German Womans Volleyball team as a child.
Now this was before Beach Volleyball made its way to the Olympics, but she speculates that even given the option of wearing more, most players would opt not to. Its cooler and there are less places for the sand to creep into thus distracting you from the game.
For the record, she was ashamed of the lack of teamwork in the latest US/German womans beach match.
“It’s unacceptable when women are showing skin only because they’re women.”
Raven, have you walked up to the athletes/women in questiona and asked them just how THEY feel about it?
I didn’t think so.
It has probably failed to occur to you that there may well be a valid reason why we see fewer nearly naked men than nearly naked women.
Consider nature as a whole where, among species having definite genders, one sex is often flashier than the other. “Hey, I’m making myself attractive, notice me, already!”
Could it not be that, in humans, that exhibitionistic gene [assuming it exists] tends – on average – to reside more in the female of the human species? If so, that could well account for much of the perceived imbalance in how male vs female performers/athletes may be decked out, wouldn’t you say?
Given that some serious research does seem to point to men and women’s minds working differently – on average – this doesn’t seem such a far-fetched hypothesis.