You know, I had just about managed to grasp the notion that DC didn’t believe in the return of Kara Zor-El in “Supergirl” as remotely marketable until I did it, whereupon they canceled the comic and then did it again in a new series…
But Marvel roundly and publicly excoriated my return to the 2099 Universe in “Captain Marvel” as an example of everything that was wrong with my writing (because who gave a dámņ anymore about 2099?). The book eventually wound up being canceled…and now there’s a launch of 2099 one-shots in September. New characters, to be sure, but it’s still aimed at readers who have fond memories of the Marvel future-verse…just as my much-maligned Spidey 2099 guest appearance in “Captain Marvel” was.
I used to take pleasure in being proven right. Now…not so much.
PAD
• 
Peter:
Take heart.
The current blonde in Superman/Batman has not “officially” been proven to be the TRUE pre-crisis Kara. Darkseid is wanting her for some reason, and even Wonder Woman doubts her identity.
And before anyone complains, the last S/B I read is #9. I personally have not seen 10 yet.
Ah 2099… I remember how awful the art got on Doom 2099… and only because an issue or two crossed over with Fantastic Four, a title I buy rabidly.
Only bought FF 2099 and the series and oneshot that wrapped it up, and then only because I’m rabidly FF nuts. Afraid to say that the rest really didn’t interest me. Tried Punisher. Shrugged.
Guess the world was just a little too… dark and removed from what I could identify with. Which is why I was glad that the FF was essentially the regular team… sort of. And I got SO pìššëd when Thing died… Couldn’t believe it when the truth behind that was revealed in Manifest Destiny. Made SO much sense.
I suppose my fondest memory of 2099 comes from the novel “X-Men/Spider-Man: Time’s Arrow Book 3: Future”, during which Storm, Beast, and Gambit thoroughly trash X-Men 2099 and consider them rank amateurs. It was funny as hëll.
Lee, could you PLEASE POST SPOILER WARNINGS for those of us who haven’t yet read their pile of comics that accumulated when they were on vacation???!!!
Sorry. Didn’t mean to shout. 🙂
Peter David: But Marvel roundly and publicly excoriated my return to the 2099 Universe in “Captain Marvel” as an example of everything that was wrong with my writing
Has anyone given thought that the reason that Supergirl’s appearance in “Superman&Batman” are selling so much is (here’s a shocker)MICHAEL TURNER. Combine it w/ Jeph Loeb, who right now is probably the #2 guy after Bendis, & well, it sells. And sells well. Plus “Wizard” gave the book tons of publicity & exposure.
I’ve always believed that for titles to sell well there are 3 ingrediants needed. #1 super hero. As much as we like sophisticated titles like 100 bullets, sandman, powers, fallen angel & the like, people crave super heroes. batman, superman, spiderman, wolverine, etc. we love them & are addicted to them. #2 a good writer. #3 a great artist. if you remove any of the 3, sales will suffer. now there are the exceptions to the rule once in a while, but overall, it’s true. Look @ the top 25 sellers. But the key to any comicbook is the art. the art carries the title, which is why MICHAEL TURNER is kicking ášš, JIM LEE is kicking ášš. A book with a great writer withe a mediocre or even a good artist will be outsold by a book w/a good or mediocre writer w/a great artist. Again, there are a few exceptions.
Bendis + Bagley + Spiderman= SUPER SALES
Bendis + Oeming – Spiderman= lower sales
Azzarello + Jim Lee + Superman= SUPER SALES
Azzarello + Ed Risso – Superman= lower sales
team up any writer w/ lee, or turner, or the kubert bros ,alex ross or any top 10 artist & the title will sell better then an alan moore, or peter david, or grant morrison or any top 10 writer.
Warren Ellis write a dámņ good planetary w/ John Cassaday & no one gives a šhìŧ. Ellis does Ultimate Fantastic Four & now everyone cares. John Cassaday does X-Men (w/ wheadon)& now he’s the next big thing.
I think part of the problem with Peter’s work is not so much the quality of his writing, but rather the artists attached to the project. In HULK, PAD had Todd McFarlane & is replaced by Jeff Purves who is no Todd McFarlane. He then gets Dale Keown & is replaced by Gary Frank. Now i like Gary Frank, & he’s very clean & detailed & i read supreme power, & have midnight nation as well as his supergirl run, but he is no Dale Keown. Sorry, no contest. then Frank is replaced by Liam Sharpe who wqas more of a Simon Bisley rip off, Angel Medina, who at that time was a bit of an unknown. Luckily the run ended w/ 2 very good artist in Deodato jr & Adam Kubert.
X factor had Larry Stroman, but really, I didn’t get him a lot. You get Joe Quesada, but BOOM, your off the book.
Captain Marvel has Criss Cross, but then no one else.
I read your stuff, because I’m older, wiser & prefer quality writing to empty pop art. i read all your stuff because i’m loyal to your work & actually enjoy it.
but if you want to be mainstream & a top ten guy & sells thousands of books a month you are going to have to team up with a great artist, because ultimatley, people want to look @ the pretty pictures. I would love if you wrote FIRESTORM w/ criss, or if you & Adam Kubert had teamed up for Capt Marvel. Fallen Angel w/ Cassaday.
There are artist out there w/out a mainstream book currently. Carlos Pacheco is out there, Adam Pollina, Phil Jimenez, & so many others. You team up with them & you got a top seller.
Joe V.
But unfortunately, right now, when comic readership is still relatively low, it is hard for ANYTHING new to break through. marvel hyped the hëll out of their Tsunami line, and even though “Runaways” and “Sentinel” in particular were well-received by critics, were talked about in WIZARD and chatted up endlessly by Joe Quesada, all of the titles from that line are gone, EXCEPT a Spider-related book”Venom”, and two X-related books “Emma Frost” and “Mystique”. There were abunch of other titles like “Namor” and “Human Torch” ,and they tried to do some with a manga style. Yet the only ones that made it to now are the latest offerings in marvel’s two major tent poles. So marketing deoesn’t always help. It’s difficult to get retailers and fans to change their habits.
This is the function of the distribution problems of comics and the structure of the industry. With the perceived value of individual books so low, both retailers and customers have become inert [WAY beyond conservative].
It’s a function of the almost bizarre comics world, as well….where characters rule over artists (and we’re not even getting into writers).
I would say its impossible to Rip up the numbers with that kinda crap…support your favorite Artist/Creator!!! Doesn’t matter if its music or books or movies…buy it.
Yeah, I realize that’s a pretty lame thing to do, but the only reason I downloaded Spidey 2099 was because I can’t walk into my local comic store and buy the whole series in one shot. I’ve flipped through the Spidey 2099 box and its full of gaps. I actually bought issue 1 when it first came out, but I was alot younger then and it didn’t fly with me. Re-reading issue one a few months back, I dug the hëll out of it. Its a few years old now and I don’t think selling out of a few back issues of Spidey 2099 at a comic store in Ontario would really matter a single lick Marvel comics, PAD / what have you.
There’s a bunch of comics for download at Suprnova.org and if I grab any I make sure they’re issues that are a few years old. (did that with Spidey 2099 and Marvel’s old Star Wars run) Going out and downloading a comic series thats brand spakin new is flat out cheap and an unwarented kick in the sack to an indusrty that needs buyers.
Hi PAD,
Since I enjoyed both Spidey 2099 and Captain Marvel, I’d like to know if when you created the Thanatos character, you already had in your mind what you did with him in Captain Marvel. (I’m trying not to spoil anyone).
I was so glad when your characters appeared in Marv’s title. I though “hey, somebody still care about 2099” 🙂
“Ah 2099… I remember how awful the art got on Doom 2099… and only because an issue or two crossed over with Fantastic Four, a title I buy rabidly.”
Wich art ? Pat Broderick or Steve Pugh ?
Doom was my favorite (even though Leonardy’s Spidey were really good). If you like Doom, there’s a website hosting lots of sketches of Doom, by lots of famous artists here : http://www.latveria.fr.st
“Has anyone given thought that the reason that Supergirl’s appearance in “Superman&Batman” are selling so much is (here’s a shocker)MICHAEL TURNER.”
Yes, this has been cited before, and it’s mostly HOGWASH; otherwise, Turner’s own APSEN publications would be tearing up the charts as well, and they’re NOT.
In fact, Turner’s run in S/B is NOT really “selling so much” to consumers as it is to RETAILERS, who are currently BUYING IN EXCESS because they perceive the series to be a SAFE BET.
KET
“Oooh, evil corporations control the future!”
Your word for today is “cyberpunk”. To illustrate today’s word, your reading list will include William Gibson’s Sprawl Trilogy (Neuromancer, Count Zero, Mona Lisa Overdrive), the short stories of Bruce Sterling, and the anthology “Mirrorshades”. (I would have included the Gibson/Sterling steampunk novel “The Difference Engine”, but I’m not that cruel – and not everything Gibson touches turns to gold…).
The dystopian future underlying the several series is not, in and of itself, necessarily a valid criticism of the 2099 line. From what I saw (in an area without comic shops, I was only able to find a few issues of Spidey 2099), the concept was interestingly done – I was particularly amused by the idea of a religious cult growing up around the legend of the Avenger Thor. It felt sometimes like editorial decisions kept cutting into Miguel’s character development (“This issue is too talky! Have him fight somebody for seventeen pages!”), but overall, had I had access to a proper shop, I’d have collected at least the entire Spidey 2099 run. (Then again, what do I know – I liked “Psi-Force”, especially after they dumped the explosive kid and picked up the energy leech…)
“But unfortunately, right now, when comic readership is still relatively low, it is hard for ANYTHING new to break through.”
Only because both of the ‘Big Two’ publishers continue to employ a predictable “circling the wagons” stance to what they’re currently selling. Merely paying temporary lip service to new concepts is NOT how one goes about PROMOTING the unfamiliar.
“marvel hyped the hëll out of their Tsunami line, and even though “Runaways” and “Sentinel” in particular were well-received by critics, were talked about in WIZARD and chatted up endlessly by Joe Quesada, all of the titles from that line are gone, EXCEPT a Spider-related book”Venom”, and two X-related books “Emma Frost” and “Mystique”. There were abunch of other titles like “Namor” and “Human Torch” ,and they tried to do some with a manga style.”
Sorry, but these latter two failed because they simply WEREN’T ANY GOOD.
However, the endurance of EMMA FROST does seem to be an enigma, as the only thing I see striking about that series are the sleazy Greg Horn covers. But MYSTIQUE has boasted both good writing and decent artwork.
Did WIZARD really do that much coverage of RUNAWAYS or SENTINEL individually, or was it merely part of a puff piece covering the Tsunami launching? Just curious.
KET
The Dragon Apropos story was never published by Dragon, however it did become the first chapter to “Woad to Wuin”
KET,
I don’t think the two titles you cite as “not being any good” were either, but it puts the lie to the argument that marketing determines success.
And Greg Horn’s art, sleazy? Do you have a problem with the female form? There’s NOTHING wrong with sexy picturesI feel they are tastefully done. At least they caught my attention, which is why I first picked up the book.And the story isn’t groundbreaking, but it does tell the backstory of a popular character AND centers on a teen lead, which has attracted young girls/women, at least at the shop I frequent.
That is a good thing, isn’t it?
KET,
I don’t think the two titles you cite as “not being any good” were either, but it puts the lie to the argument that marketing determines success.
And Greg Horn’s art, sleazy? Do you have a problem with the female form? There’s NOTHING wrong with sexy picturesI feel they are tastefully done. At least they caught my attention, which is why I first picked up the book.And the story isn’t groundbreaking, but it does tell the backstory of a popular character AND centers on a teen lead, which has attracted young girls/women, at least at the shop I frequent.
That is a good thing, isn’t it?
“New characters, to be sure, but it’s still aimed at readers who have fond memories of the Marvel future-verse…”
I don’t think that’s the case. Robert Kirkman says the following in his Newsarama interview:
And Greg Horn’s art, sleazy? Do you have a problem with the female form?
Umm, wasn’t this book being chalked up as a series for teenage girls and such?
“Here, we’re throwing a Playboy model on the cover and trying to sell it to you. Enjoy.”
“There are artist out there w/out a mainstream book currently. Carlos Pacheco is out there, Adam Pollina, Phil Jimenez, & so many others. You team up with them & you got a top seller.”
Pacheco is working on a Superman/Batman arc and then on the next Arrowsmith miniseries.
Jimenez is working on his own Otherworld series for Vertigo.
With regards to Captain Marvel, I must say that being proven right is not important
PAD says:
“I’m not sure what you mean by “Rip up the numbers.” If you mean get big sales, there’s no way. I mean, I appreciate the sentiment,but the numbers are pretty consistent: No one “rips up the numbers” on anything wholly original or novel or innovative. Safe and familiar is rewarded with big sales; wildly different or innovative just gets you low numbers. Even the most popular Vertigo books still way undersold “Supergirl” and “Young Justice” (which were, of course, canceled).”
Keep in mind that monthly comics sales is only one part of the sales equation for those books. Vertigo books are designed to have long life in the trades market (both in the bookstore market and in the Direct Market). Most Vertigo books tend to do well once they get to trades.
And as for the “no one rips up numbers on wholly original material”…I understand why you say that, especially given the sales struggles some of your recent material has had. But I look at Sandman, Preacher, Maus, and other groundbreaking material, and they sold quite well. Granted, if one were to pile up all the “big numbers” original books vs. the “non-big numbers” original books, the latter pile would be MUCH bigger. But you can have a breakthrough on original material if the work captures the public’s eye. It’s dámņ difficult, but it does occasionally happen.
As for 2099, this is just one more move from the Marvel Knights team that I don’t understand. Once a source of great comics, Marvel Knights has really hit the skids lately. The Captain America relaunch? The Fantastic Four book? The Hulk? I’m square in the demographic for that imprint, and I’d now rather read a non-Knights book than a Knights book. And I love Robert Kirkman’s work, but is this really the right project for a potential break-out talent? Tainting these books with the 2099 label (and yes, it’s a taint, because it has all of the baggage of the 2099 books with none of the good traits of those books) is a dumb idea. If you want to do “Marvel in the future”, why not 2100? 2104? 2199? Some other number? And the “Marvel Knights was started in 1999, and it’s 100 years in the future” might work, except MK started in 98.
I really enjoyed a lot of the books that Jemas/Quesada put out in the beginning of that relationship, but after “U Decide”, they’ve really bungled their publishing plans a lot.
“Pacheco is working on a Superman/Batman arc and then on the next Arrowsmith miniseries.
Jimenez is working on his own Otherworld series for Vertigo.”
But Arrowsmith & Otherworld aren’t mainstream.
Imagine PAD & Pacheco on Green Arrow or Batman or Superman or Green Lantern. The titles would sell like hotcakes.
I can almost guarantee that if Criss Cross doesnt leave CM, the title wouldn’t be cancelled.
Joe
PAD – “…everything that was wrong with my writing”
And what would THAT be? Just a couple of days ago I was rereading a stack of WEB OF… and had been going through issues written by Gerry Conway when … I stopped. I was just finishing reading the text of page one of the next issue in the pile (“Corner Business”?) and, StarWolf’s Word, before I scanned down to the credits, I thought to myself, “this is a PAD issue. It’s gottas be…”. And, sure enough …
What marvel can have against that kind of talent? The only answer I can come up with is the same sort of stupidity which has screwed up so many ventures and can be summed up by two lethal words: office politics.
(Sorry, forgot who wrote this…) – “part of the reason the new and VERY good She-hulk series wont last long…”
For me, it would be the art. The stories may be very good, but I wouldn’t know because, after enjoying the Byrne run, this new guy’s art just doesn’t cut it for my favourite jade giantess. I realize I may be silly here, but for me comics are largely a visual media and when I run into what I consider substandard art, it just kills it.
Steve – “Spider-Man 2099 was where Miguel had to get his mother away from the Thorites, and succeeded in confusing the heck out of them with aplomb. I was ROTFLMAO over that particular issue.”
For me, one of the funniest things I ever read was the scene in PAD’s SUPERGIRL (65? I don’t have it at hand here)
***spoiler alert***
where she spots what she thinks is a monster roaming the city snacking on the victims of an alien invasion only to have it turn out to be some sort of alien anthropologist studying our culture who was hungry and figured the victims had no more use for their bodies anyway. The way it gave Linda a lesson in manners, not to mention the hazards of jumping to conclusions, and had her hopelessly confused for most of the exchange was quite clever and fall-down funny.
Just a note- if you don’t like the art in She-Hulk, take heart. Paul Pelletier is taking over soon.
“Just a note- if you don’t like the art in She-Hulk, take heart. Paul Pelletier is taking over soon.”
He’s doing one fill-in issue, #6.
Craig J. Ries,
So, in other words, what you are saying, is that teenage girls will be intimidated by a good-looking woman.
Riiiiiight!
How condescending. And how inaccurate.
Back when Dan Jurgens was doing Lara Croft, a character dismissed by many as having only two – ahem – positive qualities he told me that he enjoyed the book mainly for two reasons:
1.) The blank slate it afforded him to tell stories
2.) There were two types of girls/ladies that were at conventions he went to. Those who were there with their boyfriends/husbands, and those who would stand in line with Tomb Raider comics for him to sign, and who often dressed like the character.
The idea that women will be “turned off” by a sexy looking woman is illogical, and even destructive, thinking.
It suggests that women are easily intimidated, and have low self-esteem. It further reinforces the idea that if you “look like a model” you had better dress like Mary Poppins to be taken seriously. As if being attrctive and aspiring to be a CEO (for example) are mutually exclusive.
In fact, the women I have meant in positions of authority are successful (and in my opinion, made sexier or at least more appealing) because of the air of confidence that they have. They can laugh at themselves, while at the same time expecting nothing less than the best from themselves or others. Those who don’t have that confidence make excuses, blame others, and then whine about the “glass ceiling”.
Are you aware that THIRTY PERCENT of the readership of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue is female? Someone I know who is in the fashion industry was one of them.
Finally, let me close with a quote from Christina Z.,
“Why is it in comics, we can accept exaggerated powers, we can accept exaggerated situations, but we can’t accept exaggerated BODIES?”
Oh, someone up there mentioned Emma Frost’s series. well accourding to comicbook resources’ rich johnston the series is being cancelled w/ issue 18.
No, Jerome, Craig isn’t saying that girls will be threatened by a good-looking woman. He’s saying that a lot of the early Emma Frost covers looked as though they were taken from pørņ-video-box covers, and that THAT might just possibly put female readers off.
Now, from what I’ve seen, Horn has shifted the focus of the covers quite a bit in the last 4-6 months, and the covers I’ve seen recently are ones girls might well be fine with. If you’re restricting your argument solely to those, I’d go along with it (at least insofar as I can, seeing as I’ve never read the series to judge it one way or the other). But if you’re maintaining that the first few covers are ones female readers will naturally find appealing, I think you’re seriously off base.
TWL
“So why not i dont know go to newsarama …in
stead of another marvel dc bashing session”(paraphrasing).
You realize if we were all well informed and thought before we spoke a lot of conversation wouldnt be taking place here?(sarcasm,people,sarcasm)
unfortunately bashing DC and Marvel is pretty easy at times because
1.They are still the big boys on the block
2.They make decisions that dont make sense to fans but do make from a business standpoint.
3.No one likes their favorite character ,series,
“being ruined ” or cancelled .
Not that the bashing is always justified or correct.Lord knows i do my share of it.
There was a point to what i was saying,but i forget what it is…..oh well 🙂
Dear Luigi Novi:
Considering that I was discussing an issue that had already been out, I honestly did not feel a spoiler’s warning was necessary.
In the future, I will be more considerate.
Due to circumstances beyond my control I am only able to get to my local (about 20 miles away!)comic book store about once a month if I’m lucky, so S/B #10 and probably #11 will be waiting for me by the time I do get there next week.
Whether she is or ain’t, will hopefully be revealed by the 4th of July.
Lee. 🙂
Another possible problem with Tsunami was that these books were effectively announced as having a trade pb version coming out down the line. It’s a lot easier to say with a trade guaranteed new title “Well, I’ll check it out on the stands and if it’s good I’ll just wait for the trade”. Runaways and Sentinel are both supposed to be doing fairly well as trades, although it’s unclear if it’s well enough to justify more material.
Starwolf-
There is another thing about that monster that Supergirl encountered that is there if you are looking for it. Look at the Monster and then imagine Tony Head doing all the dialogue……heeheeeheeeee
Kath O. – “Tony Head”? Sorry, the reference is lost on me.
Giles from Buffy… also known as Anthony Stewart Head, he was also a star of Taster’s Choice Commercials way back in the day…
Travis
unfortunately bashing DC and Marvel is pretty easy at times
Or, as John Cleese says, it’s too easy… sorta like setting fire to Lionel Richie.
(His words, not mine. If you haven’t seen How to Irritate People, it’s worthwhile)
Travis
can you guys give me your opinion as to which artist would work best w/ PAD on any given title?
example:
PAD & Chris Bachalo on Batman
PAD & Carlos Pacheco on Superman
PAD & Ed McGuiness on Capt America
PAD & Scott McDaniel on Daredevil
PAD & Alan Davis on Aquaman
PAD & Adam Kubert on Thor
PAD & CrissCross on Green Lantern
PAD & Jim Lee on JLA
PAD & Mike Deodato jr on Hulk
You can pick any artist & any title or character you think deserves a title. What would be your dream PAD comic book project.
Joe V.: Has anyone given thought that the reason that Supergirl’s appearance in “Superman&Batman” are selling so much is (here’s a shocker)MICHAEL TURNER.
Luigi Novi: Not me. I don
Hey – I never read the original 2099 series but I thought that 2099 Spiderman bit was heaps cool in the Cap Marvel series, in fact everything in the Captain Marvel series was cool except for all that U-decide business came about..
By the way, my dream PAD comic book project would be: Frank Quitley & PAD on DC’s Shazam/Captain Marvel. Released on Hard Cover..
Peter,
Kudos to you for talking about comics.
I don’t follow a lot of DC titles (except for the big ones) so I didn’t know about the SuperGirl run you had until recently.
I’m reading the new Supergirl stories and I like them, but I did have to go and pick up your run also. I was really impressed with your story and really don’t understand why DC brought her back again in what appears to be the same way.
I guess they don’t pay me enough to understand, :0).
Novafan
Luigi,
My points above were:
1)Quality art outsells quality writing.
2) Super Heroes outsell any other genre.
3) Mainstream are super hero comics.
4) Quality writing + Quality art + super heroes equals a hit.
examples:
Bendis on Spiderman, Daredevil, Avengers, Ultimate FF & Ultimate X-men will outsell Bendis on Powers & Pulse
Azzarello & Risso on Batman outsells Azzarello & Risso on 100 Bullets.
Millar on Spiderman, Ultimates, Ulimate FF, Wolverine outsells Millar on Chosen & Wanted.
On last month’s Wizard, the 1st non super hero title to crack the top 50 was Conan 1 & it was in the 20’s & the only reason it was so high was because it’s a #1. Even the Claremont/Byrne JLA (which was garbage) was in the top 20.
Now, you may not like Mike Turner, & I also think his art is highly over rated, but you & I are in the minority because the rest of comicdom loves the guy. The guy sells well. Very well. I shudder to think what a Bendis/Turner super hero project would do, because i tell you this, it would shatter sales records.
As far as Planetary goes, let me tell you this. I love warren ellis. . my top writers are (in order) Alan Moore, Frank Miller, PAD, Neil Gaiman, Bendis, Ellis, Millar, Buseik, Mark Waid, grant Morrison & Jim Starlin. Back to my point, i collect Planetary. But look at where it is in the sales charts, look at his other projects he did recently. Now look at the sales of Ultimate FF, & interest in Iron Man is picking up when Marvel announced he was taking over the title. Look @ the #’s Cassaday was pulling in Capt. America & Astonishing X-Men vs. Planetary.
I’ll get to my Hulk point in the next posting.
The only thing I can think of is that they liked the ideas, but didn’t care for your execution?
Or they could just be crack-heads…
Joe, just so I understand you (in true Spinozian spirit), how do your comments about the differnet Hulk artists fit into what you just posted?
Again, I just want to make sure I’m understanding you correctly.
Luigi,
The point I was trying to make using Peter’s run in Hulk is this, let me give you a personal story:
I was in high school when i discovered Peter’s run in Hulk. But the only reason I picked it up was simply because I was looking for back issues by my favorite artist at that time, who was setting records drawing Amazing Spiderman. I must admit it, The writing was good, but I never continiued past McFarlane’s last Hulk issue (346 i think). I remember looking @ the Purves issues & going YUCK. so i didn’t pick them up. My next encounter with the Hulk was during the count down arc, & the only reason I picked them up was because Walt Simonson (one of my all time favorites) drew the covers. I remember looking @ the art & going YUCK, again & I ripped the cover & threw the issues away without even reading them. I did take notice of an up and coming artist named Dale Keown, but wasn’t interested in it.
Now, like many people I was heavily into all things X (which I thank God I grew out off) & Peter was given X Factor. I was cracking up with each issue. Now there was a 3 part crossover in the Hulk which i picked up. I loved the art of the future PITT creator & picked up as many back issues I could. (To my surprise, I discovered that he had drawn countdown pt 4)but I left Hulk @ issue 400. I didn’t pick it up again until the Heroes Reborn fiasco & I loved it when Kubert did the art chores. I had followed Kubert through Wolverine & the Onslaught mini’s.
Now why didn’t i stick through Hulk? After all, the quality of the writing hadn’t changed. In fact, now as I’ve re read them as an adult the writing improved with each arc. Well, it was the art. It was not until last year i completed the Hulk run when i bought many of my missing issues thru ebay. I tell you the art of Purves was still bloody horrible & Liam sharpe was just a tad better, but that’s about it. Gary Frank, to me, never fit well as a hulk artist. I’ll even tell you this, I keep them becase of Peter, but my 3 comic book stores in town have most of the purves, & sharp & medina issues @ $1 & don’t sell. & i’m sure that if you look at sales from any old previews of that era, that there were drops after major artists left. Even now I tell you that the quality of the art was noit the same.
Look what happened recently after Jim Lee was done with Batman. Look at the #’s.
CrissCross may not have saved CM, but i tell you the #’s would have probably been better if he had stayed thru the run. That is NOT a knock on PAD. It is simply that ultimatly, peolple want to look @ the pretty pictures, the the last year & 1/2 of CM artists left a lot to be desired.
Why do you think HULK:THE END sold so well? Look @ how much it cost when it came out, how it sold out & look @ the current price. I saw it go on ebay for $75 2 months ago. Why did the Kubert issues do better then the Sharpe or Frank issues?
ART, ART, ART. It makes all the difference.
Joe V.
I have to throw my two cents in here. I follow the writing first. If a book is poorly written, has poor grammar and spelling, I won’t buy any more issues. There are a lot of writers I know I will enjoy reading. But, if the art is poor that lessens my enjoyment. While I couldn’t care less which artist draws the pictures, they must be at least technically competent. I think as one gets older, one gravitates more toward story than pictures. Just my opinion.
Karen, I totally agree with you. I, as i get older prefer to read better stories regardless of the art. (I love LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN despite the fact that Kevin O’Neil is…well lets just say not my cup of tea)but the market is controlled by mostly peaople in their early 20’s who prefer a half naked Witchblade to Fallen Angel, despite the huge diffrences in quality writing.I have a self imposed monthly comic budget of $75 (about 30 issues) as the price of comics goes up, i have to make cuts. so ultimatly i keep the best written & drawn books.
so i buy Superman (Azzarello & Jim Lee), The Ultimate line (Bendis, Millar, Ellis, Hitch, Bagley, etc., Marvel Knight Spidey (Millar & Dodson), Flash (Johnns & Porter), Teen Titans (Johnns & McKone), Superman/Batman (Loeb & Turner) etc. Economics demand i be more selective. But if you ask the teen & young adults that read comics, you’ll se the writing is secondary to the art.
Joe V.
Are you aware that THIRTY PERCENT of the readership of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue is female?
Are you aware that women aren’t the target audience of the SI Swimsuit issue?
Or do you think it’s advisable to sell comics with pørņ-like covers to *teenage girls*?
Hëll, is it advisable to sell anything with pørņ-like covers to teenage anybody? 🙂
And how many teenage girls pick up the SI Swimsuit Issue again?
It suggests that women are easily intimidated, and have low self-esteem.
Btw, welcome to the Real World, where this kind of thing DOES happen.
In case you didn’t notice, we do live in a self-destructive society where if you aren’t Little Miss Perfect Body, you might not get what you want in life.
Plastic surgery? Lypo? etc.
“In case you didn’t notice, we do live in a self-destructive society where if you aren’t Little Miss Perfect Body, you might not get what you want in life.
Plastic surgery? Lypo? etc.”
Two words: “The Swan”.
Two words: “The Swan”.
Sorry, but I’m not catching the reference.
Posted by: Jonathan (the other one) at June 24, 2004 08:34 AM
“In case you didn’t notice, we do live in a self-destructive society where if you aren’t Little Miss Perfect Body, you might not get what you want in life.
Plastic surgery? Lypo? etc.”
Two words: “The Swan”.
Posted by: Craig J. Ries at June 24, 2004 11:08 AM
Two words: “The Swan”.
>Sorry, but I’m not catching the reference.
If I am remembering correctly, The Swan was a recent reality TV show that had its participants transformed from “ugly ducklings” into beauties and then judged to see who was turned into the most attractive. Sad commentary on our current society values indeed.
Correct, Fred. On “The Swan”, ordinary-looking women were led (by professional plastic surgeons) into thinking they were hideous, and could only be saved by extensive, painful surgery. At the end, the contestants were judged on their new artificially-induced “beauty”. The grand prize – a million dollars? A spread in “Playboy”? No – the so-called “grand prize” on this show was a chance to *compete* in a beauty pageant. Yes, you read that right – the “winner” won only the right to be judged AGAIN!
Some people think the nadir in television programming so far was “The Littlest Groom”. I say “The Swan” makes it look downright respectable…
Are you aware that THIRTY PERCENT of the readership of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue is female?
Are you aware that women aren’t the target audience of the SI Swimsuit issue?>>
No, but he has a point when a third of the readership is female (if those numbers are correct).
I’ve known plenty of women who enjoyed reading Maxim or FHM (partly for a laugh) and I’ve known women who go to strip clubs that feature female strippers for a laugh and to look at pretty bodies.
Women can and do admire attractive female forms just as they admire attractive male forms. However, that’s heading off to a whole different topic.
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Greg Horns early covers were hidious and questionable and most liekly would not appeal to a young female audience, however, (at the risk of sounding like a paedo) I’d take a look at the YA novel racks geared towards girls and at magazines aimed at the teen crowd. Plenty of attractive women on them, some dressed provocatively, but not “pørņ-like”. Take that as you will.
>
Well, you run up against the pørņ vs sexuality debate. When does healthy sexuality and admiration of an attractive figure cross over into pørņ? Better people than I have had many a head scratching session over this.
>
I think the larger point is that the whole of girls/women shouldn’t be lumped into on group just as the whole of anyone shouldn’t be.
Some women would balk at the suggestion of going to a Hooter’s, others would jump at the chance for some dámņ fine wing dings and a chance to have a laugh at the kitch of it.
I think it’s safe to say that the early Horn covers were not aimed at attracting a female audience though 😉
Jim