49 comments on “Out This Week: CAPTAIN MARVEL #24.”
I like….I like so much…I feel bad. This idea was also tossed around back in the ol Pantheon days, I think it was the first time I ever heard the theory. Just plain cool. One issue more to go right? Makes me sad…just like your last Issue of Hulk on the regular series..almost cried when I read that book. Ðámņ..I like this so much I’m sad…Ðámņ.
Ðámņ. Very strong ending. It makes you yearn for the days when Genis was insane. Clearly, Genis is not insane since he knows the seriousness of what he is doing.
Actually, I am surprised that Marvel published this. Without revealing things, this has one of the most dramatic homocides since Phoenix destroyed a planet.
Nevertheless, the killing and how it was done was impressive. but disturbing. The week before, I read an issue of THE PUNISHER which had tons of corpes displayed in all their gory. Your ending was much more horrorifing.
Peter, I am curious. Did you know that the book was cancelled when you turned in your script?
Yes, I like the story and will be sad to see it end. But at the same time, I have to wonder where you would have gone from this point.
Yes, I’ll take my comic book story endings, black, with two teaspoons of happy lovebirds.
— Ken from Chicago
P.S. Why didn’t he simply resolve to use protection?
P.P.S. What about Agent Leslie Steele & Hubbie and the one-armed, one-legged, no-headed Cabana boy? What about them?!!
whoa
Kudos to you, PAD. This must be the best issue of Captain Marvel I’ve read since this long, strange ride began.
I’d say more, but I’m in a speechless mood now.
Definitely the best of the recent issues. I’m expecting the next to be another big, emotional slam-bang of a climax. Very sorry to see this one go.
And I’m with Ken…when do we get a Agent Leslie Steele mini? Or “Leslie Steele Adventures” entries?
I wondered the same thing as Ken from Chicago – why didn’t Genis just not father Ely? The only explanation that I could come up with is that he had already “lived” that morning (during a fast forward to the future – can’t remember what issue) and so couldn’t affect any events before then, using the time travel “rules” that Peter was employing in this story. Am I right, Peter? 🙂
This is definitely my favorite arc since the relaunch. I didn’t know Marlo or the other secondary characters when the arc began, but I think I knew them well enough by the conclusion to have an emotional stake in them.
I think it’s interesting that the arc was called “Odyssey,” because I felt that the story was primarily concerned with destinations, not journies. It was a story about things ending. And all I can say in response is, “Not yet! I was just getting into it!”
C’est la vie.
I’d really be curious about anything Peter has to say about his own reactions when he thought of the ending, given he’s a father multiple times and still has recent memories of Caroline being Ely’s age at the end.
Btw, there was another book out this week with a somewhat similar ending. Spoilers for its title, then more space and its specific plot.
Book was Authority
Jenny Quantum (age 4) has an evil twin, Jenny Fractal, who’s destroying Earth and who’s killed JQ. JQ’s adoptive father goes back in time and kills JF shortly after she’s born, leading to JQ’s soul inhabiting JF’s body. Said father’s feeling considerable guilt about killing a baby who, at the time he killed it, was still an innocent. While we presumably won’t see a followup on Genis’ aftermath, I thought Peter’s version was better and more unexpected.
AUGH! Those last two pages nearly made me scream (in a good way). As it was, I must’ve made some awful faces since the man on the bus next to me asked if I was feeling okay.
It made me wonder, though; as others have pointed out, there are multiple ways to make sure that timeline never happened; ask uncle Eros where to get a vasectomy, try to keep Melissa and Abe’s relationship together so that she’ll never marry Genis, etc. It would’ve been nice if it were clearer why Genis chose the path he did; was it because the events he witnessed back in the v3 flashforward “already happened” and cannot be undone, but the rest of the future is mutable? Is it because the plan he took was the first thing that came to mind, and by the time he thought of another course of action the one he had promised Ely he would take was locked in by its causality? Or is it because, in spite of everything he’s been through in the past five years’ worth of comics, and everything he ‘knows’ about the universe, he just isn’t that smart? I loved the issue (though it left me pretty sad, I must confess), it just would’ve been nice to know why that was his sole option (beyond the obvious “it’s more poigniant and dramatic, and will hang over his and the readers’ heads in whatever book he appears in next”)
I actually thought he was gonna stop having sex and never even give Ely the chance to be concieved…but this was way more dramatic.
Once again…”Boo-Hoo, im sad “
PAD – Wow, you’re right, that was pretty twisted.
It was definately a “Ðámņ…Ðámņ!” type of ending to this story. I was surprised by Genis action, also due in large part to PAD’s rather recent fatherhood experiences – with a two-year-old son and another child on the way in a month or so (holy crap, is it really that close?), I just don’t think I could have reached the same ending. I mean, could he not have just started an argument with Songbird on the night of the conception, or told her he had a headache or something else that would guarantee that Ely would not be concieved? While it was definately well-done dramatically, I just have to question if that was Genis’ only option.
Outside of that, dámņ good, and I have to say that I’m really going to miss the Leslie Steele recaps in the Previously pages…
Yeah, count me among those who thought he’d resolved to get a vasectomy, and was just being touchy because he wasn’t keen on getting Littel Genis sliced (especially since, as Kree/Eternal hybrid, it’d probably take some pretty drastic steps to make it permanent).
Very powerful ending to a terrific story. Does this series really have to come to an end??? Oh well, I am already looking forward to MadroX. Especially since X-Factor was my first PAD comic.
Count me in, too. I’d assumed in reading that he’d pledged himself to a life of celibacy or sterility. The idea of actually killing Eby just never occurred.
Brr. Well done.
TWL
Honestly, I thought he was going to obliterate himself to prevent any possibility of his having offspring, possibly in ish 25. Even a vasectomy would have sufficed (as others have stated). I totally didn’t see that ending coming as I was expecting something far more heroic and selfless. I mean, he conceived this child with the full intention of killing him… wicked!
Or he could’ve chosen abstinence. It would have gelled perfectly with the Magus’ assertion that Genis had ruined any chance of happiness for himself. 🙂
StaR
Don’t forget that Genis is also supposed to have a daughter, Mimi, who died as a hero. Sterilizing himself isn’t an option, unless he wants to eliminate BOTH his children from history.
And considering that Genis himself was conceived using a genetic sample (rather than natural mating) sterlizing himself, or using protection, or abstaining from sex, would not 100% guarantee that Ely couldn’t be conceived.
Killing Ely was the only way he could be totally sure that it would work.
Peter
I was shocked at the ending of this issue! I had to re-read the last couple of pages to make sure I’d seen what was going on…it floored me.
But thank you SO MUCH for putting Rick and Marlo back together.
Dave
It very much fit in with the tragic arc the Captain has been on since ish #1 (the second one). I say Kudos for following through with the twisted and doomed nature of this character. I would have been disappointed if you’d softened up and given him a happy ending. Personally I thought it was the best moment in the series since he confronted Pappa Captain (probably nothing can ever top that in this book for me). Also I was floored by the intensity of Moondragon’s part in the ish.
Question: did Rick “witness” the last page, via their connection? I would love it if the last ish were light on action and heavy on some more of their introspective/philosophical dialogue, which the book has been a little light on lately. That’s where I think this book really shines.
Pete
I have to agree with everyone that it’s sad this title is ending with #25. Makes you wonder if the current story line would have stayed on this course had there been an issue 26, 27, etc.; let alone what would have happened next.
But only Peter can answer that.
(hint, hint)
A thought occurs to me that’ll probably sound like Heresy to you folks: I actually Don’t wish CM would go on and on forever. This isn’t to say that I haven’t enjoyed the book immensely. At its best it tends to be my favorite issue of the month. This is certainly true of the first five issues (after the relaunch). However, the Captain has had such a tragic path for the last two dozen issues that I’m really craving for some closure in the form of a Tragic Ending.
Am I alone?
To put it another way, I love Hamlet, but I think I’d probably hate Hamlet:the series.
The last page of this issue really has me drooling for that finale. Can it get any darker? It seems clear to me what the next phase of the story should be, but this book is nothing if not constantly surprising.
I’m curious as to how far PAD wanted the book to go, how many issues he would have written before he’d given it an ending or abandoned the project.
Pete
This issue was the most heartbreaking ending I have ever seen. Before this that title belonged to your final issue of your hulk run. I loved it so much that I don’t want to see this book end. When I saw what was happening at first I (like others have said) figured Genis would just abort his whole relationship with Songbird or at the very least prevent himself from being able to create Ely. And so when I got to the final few pages I was surprised but in a good way. I did some thinking on how and why Genis did what he did. I re-read issue 19 from Vol. 3. and I think I began to understand. My interpretation after thinking about it as to why he just didn’t father Ely? Why he just would never get together with Melissa or use a condom? or something… WHy he had to Kill Ely the way he did. It plays all back into the whole cosmic awareness thing and his insanity resulting from it. The whole “this is how it has to be!” deal. He knew himself and he knew he couldn’t bring himself when the times arose to do anything else. He couldn’t see himself giving up the love of his life, or his first child, or even the night of passion that brough Ely into the world. He has though in the past killed many people, including his father (though that was in a different timeline). He could kill Ely because Ely would be corrupted by him. Turned to the horrible evil merely by Genis’ actions throughout his life by the whole insanity/sanity thing that Genis himself couldn’t really escape. Go back to being insane (opening up an even more destructive posibility) or stick to one line of destiny as best as possible (killing Ely being the biggest revision) that he threw himself into when he decided to avoid the insanity.
Overall Great issue Peter! I am so sorry to see this book ending, now more than ever.
I’ll voice a different opinion. I didn’t like the conclusion. It is just sensationalist, there could have been many others ways of resolving the situation, many have been mentioned here. I hope issue 25 will conclude the serie in much better a way, because this storyline ending was really disappointing for me.
Great story PAD:
I loved the ultimate time travel paradox…
Would you go back in time and kill Hitler as a baby?
I could feel the pain that Genis was experiencing in this story, and the way his son was smiling at him just before the end made me wish that the series was not ending.
Every time you get a series and turn it into gold it gets terminated:
Supergirl
Aquaman
Hulk
I hope that your Fallen Angel and MadroX series have long and healthly runs.
Keep up the great work.
Regards:
Warren S. Jones III
Warren, I think that Supergirl was gold long before it was canceled. Supergirl #50 makes the short list of my alltime favorite comics. In my opionion, the book was in decline when DC canceled it (waaay too many mandatory EVENT crossovers dragging down the storyline).
And now a message for Genis:
“Prepare yourself! Your fall is nearly come! The Doom of the House of Atreus is upon you!”
We now return you to normal reality.
I have a feeling the CM is going to become a major villian in the Marvel U. soon. Correect? He would make a GREAT Avengers foe. But I do hope Rick is seperated from him before that happens, or at least that is the crux of the Avengers going after CM, to save Rick.
I am kinda glad this is ending, did not think Peter had much more story about Genisis, in him. Time for MaddoX!
I can only reply by making SPOILERS, so please be warned:
I did very much like this issue, but I have to wonder. They may have been one other solution to the dillemma: All he had to do was leave Marlo and never concieve a child with her. It would probably require just as strong a resolve as what he eventually did (although much less of a dramatic effect, of course).
Also, Moondragon has gone evil Again? Back in her ‘Defenders’ days she was a thrall of the ‘Dragon of the Moon’, now she is a thrall of the Magus. Unless this is resolved in the final issue, this situation is due to hang in limbo for a long while
Thanks for the great issue, PAD 🙂
OK- the ending of this issue was TERRIFIC! I really liked it a lot. Heck, I loved it.
I just hope that it doesn’t get undone by whatever happens after the series ends. I mean, yeah, it’s an undisclosed amount in the future, so it’s pretty likely to be safe, unless Marv is… I dunno, Killed, or something as extreme as that. I hope it remains a part of his character- that he WILL do this. I love it.
Supposedly, Marv will be in another series after this… a team series…
Travis
In terms of story logic, my feeling was thus: That in order for Marv to rewrite, literally, centuries worth of history, he had to envision with crystal clarity one defining moment. A “memorable” moment, as it were, since the entire series has been about how people will be remembered. It’s impossible to envision “I’ll be celibate.” Granted, yes, he could have gotten snipped, but ending the story that way would have felt like a joke. So instead he focused all his cosmic-related willpower on one mentally foreseeable moment and dictated what his actions would be, and that’s what wiped the guy out.
And in a purely philosophical vein: No one ever says, “What if you could go back in time and kill Hitler’s mother? The question is always, “If you could kill the infant Hitler in his cradle, would you?” There’s simply no emotional resonance to “If you could go back in time and convince Hitler’s father to have a vasectomy, would you?” The end of the story would simply have fallen flat if it had gone any other way. Furthermore, the entire theme of the story was “How will you be remembered?” And Marv, who had been wondering about it all this time, is certain by the end that he’ll be remembered as the guy who killed his son in the cradle.
PAD
Well, that caught me by surprise. Like everyone I assumed Genis was resolving not to conceive Ely. But since he witnessed his birth, I suppose that was part of his own history, even though it was in the future.
Scott commented on the title ‘Odyssey,’ I think it’s a reference to the Illiad and the Odyssey. At the end, Odysseus returns home after years have passed only to do battle with his son.
I’m scraping away the crusty layers of my memory, and remembering an Adam Warlock/Quasar issue that has Wendell split into his different incarnations and asked ethical questions at different phases in his life. One of those was would he kill Hitler as a child to save the world. And I WAANT to say there was some side reference to the previous Protector of the Universe (Marv’s dad) having undergone the same trial– was the Hitler question part of it then, or has my memory totally mucked it up?
Frank Castle and the kid seem to take on new implications.
PAD wrote: And in a purely philosophical vein: No one ever says, “What if you could go back in time and kill Hitler’s mother? The question is always, “If you could kill the infant Hitler in his cradle, would you?” There’s simply no emotional resonance to “If you could go back in time and convince Hitler’s father to have a vasectomy, would you?”
Actually, the question “What if you could make Hitler’s mother infertile?” is very much integral to the plot of Stephen Fry’s Making History, which to my mind is one of his best novels.
As for Cap Marvel, this was indeed one of the most disturbing endings I’ve read in comics, while also one that makes sense from the character’s point of view and his development in the series. Too bad the series is coming to a close, because it would have been very interesting to see how he could live with himself after that.
Not since reading What Savage Beast (Pad’s hulk novel which is still avaiable on amazon) has an ending to a story left me so drained. To be honest after marvel became sane, or at least stopped acting out, i thought his character could no longer shock me. I was wrong. Big time wrong. While I loved the story I do question the wisdom of Marv’s characterzation. Like Hal Jordon ten years ago, Marv character will forever be defined by a moment that does not occur, from his perspective, years into the future. Then again When Hal Jordon snapped and died it made go form a second string character never used to the most in demand character in Dc history so Marv’s defining moment might lead to a relaunch of the series.
Wow. What a story. I’m gonna miss this book dearly. I’ve never been disappointed with any issue. A solid read from cover to cover. I’m anxious on how things wrap up, but sad that it’s almost over as well. Ðámņáŧìøņš!
Well, I’m just gonna quote the other Captain Marvel and go, “Holy moley.”
It made me cry.
I haven’t cried reading something since I read the… well What Savage Beast when Betty is rocking her baby.
Wow!
(and forgive the next comments, saying favourable things about a book that isn’t written by PAD)
So, I sit down in my favourite coffee shop here in Winnipeg, and pull out two comics. First, I get hit by the whammy known as ‘Identity Crisis #1’. After reading it, I sit there staring at the wall for a while, thinking ‘why can’t more comics be written this well?’.
Second, I pull out Captain Marvel #24. Whammo all over again. It is nice seeing real surprises in comics, particularily in two separate titles back-to-back like that (of course, it then made the remaining three books I read after that pale by comparison), and makes me hope that more books of this quality can come out and actually be purchased.
There is a curious comparison between IC#1 and CM#24, however. I won’t reveal any spoilers (for the 2 or 3 of you out there who haven’t read these two books), but with IC#1 you figure out pretty early on what ‘big event’ is going to happen, but spend the entire time hoping that it doesn’t until it happens. Conversely, with CM#24, you think you figure out pretty early on what ‘big event’ is going to happen, and then at the last moment find out it is something else entirely! Just a comparison of two well-written books, both showing what is possible in this funnybook medium.
Two more things. First, I like how my earlier question about why the Titanic is in such good shape was answered …
…and, second, what the heck is a ‘headless cabana’ anyway 🙂
In refrence to Lesters comment about Hal Jordan…I do believe there gonna give him back the ring, cause i heard he’s gonna stop being the specter…which in my opinion is bunk! Hal taking out the corps was the best thing to happen to the GL series…now there gonna make it stale again just so they can make some bucks off the return of the “greatest”.I personally dont want to see more floating green bubbles and the lamest imagination of any character of all time…
wow, sorry…went on a rant there.
P.S. I too wonder where the story line in CM would go after #25, I mean after the events in 24…you just want to know how Peter would top that story (and you know he would!).
Personally, I doubt the ‘Genis stays celibate’ or ‘has a vasectomy’ options would ever have worked. Even if he resolves and holds to the resolve for the first or has the operation of the second choice, the super-science of Titan means his direct participation is unneeded.
I can just see Songbird arranging a ‘secret’ cell sample, using some of the ultra tech used to corral Genis a few issues back so he doesn’t find out. All his wonderful resolve is made worthless and there’s no way he can tell anyone why it’s a BAD IDEA!
Sadly the only way to be certain Eli never grows up to be the threat his father knows will come is to make certain it is impossible. And there was only one way to do that.
I actually respect the character more for this ending. It’s easy to do the right thing when it doesn’t really cost you much, if anything.
This was a very costly solution.
Peter, CM#24’s finale is getting debated over in RAC.MU. After my initial post here about why didn’t Genis “use protection” (and after seeing other people post the same question) it occurred to me one point and you tangentially touch on it in your comment upthread that Genis was focusing on one “memorable” moment, and he says at the end that he knew “this day” was coming, which leads to one question:
Did Genis focus on a particular TIME or did he focus on a particular CONDITION?
Cuz it seemed to me that it was the latter, that whatever *plans* to be either celibate or to use “protection”, like so many humans, not every pregnancy is planned, and instead of getting an abortionm, Genis hesitated and hoped maybe he was wrong–or that “something” would “happen” to the mother or more to the point, to the pregnancy, until finally the baby was born.
Now if he was watching ANGEL the tv series or read MAGIK the Marvel Comics mini-series or THE DARK PHOENIX SAGA, then he would know he could raise the best child but said offspring could be kidnapped into some horrific dimension by some psychotic megalomaniac and brainwashed into turning into the worst supervillain.
Shirley Genis knew he had to “act” before Ely was out of his control.
— Ken from Chicago
P.S. Peter, is there some dark-off you’re having between your latest entries in your King Arthur, Sir Appropos, Star Trek: New Frontier, Fallen Angel and Captain Marvel series to have the bleakest story finale?
This is by far the most powerful issue of…of anything that I have read in any number of years. I’ve made everyone I know read it; even without knowing a thing about anyone inside the pages, it hit them hard. My mother even cried.
I’m floored PAD. Just….floored.
Peter:
I enjoyed both “Crazy like a Fox” and “Odyssey”. The way you resolved the “Genis-replacing-Legacy” story was a clever one.
I have some questions about this last story:
1) Who was the man with red eyes that snapped Genis’ neck in VOL. 3 #19? Ely?
I saw that this made full circle with the current story: Genis was remembered as a murderer. I believe the death of Melissa and Mimi is negated when he warned Marlo to be checked when she gets ill (by the bacterial attack from the Shi’ar, Kree and Skrull), and this flashback gets erased.
2) What was your plan with the flashback of Magus impersonating Starfox and Moondragon kicking Genis (same issue)?
3) We’ll see Genis traveling to the Destiny War as depicted in Avengers Forever? You showed in VOL. 3 #20 the moment Rick Jones travelled to the Destiny War as an old man, that’s because I put this question to you.
Feel free to answer or not those questions. I put them here because you said that issue #25 resolves “every single aspect of the book” so I reread my backissues and remember those loose story threads…
By the way, I bought the FALLEN ANGEL TPB, and it’s amazing!! The first chapter was superb and the cast of characters are a great fun. I’ll run to my comic shop and buy all the back issues to the current one… David’s art is terrific!
Believe me that when I read Harlan Ellison’s Mr. David Lopez Blanco, Argentina Existentialist reference being the creator of Bete Noire I almost fell 🙂
Congrats for this great book.
Thanks!
“1) Who was the man with red eyes that snapped Genis’ neck in VOL. 3 #19? Ely?”
No. It was a new character I was going to be introducing later this year, back when I thought there was going to be a later this year.
“2) What was your plan with the flashback of Magus impersonating Starfox and Moondragon kicking Genis (same issue)?”
I was laying the groundwork for that with the current storyline…except, well, now it’ll never happen. Eventually it was going to be revealed that Moondragon was actually hosing the Magus, convincing him that he had totally dominated her when in fact she was working to see what his ultimate goals were.
“3) We’ll see Genis traveling to the Destiny War as depicted in Avengers Forever? You showed in VOL. 3 #20 the moment Rick Jones travelled to the Destiny War as an old man, that’s because I put this question to you.”
That sequence in #20 was pretty much the extent of my endeavor to address the Destiny War sequence. Beyond that, I think I’d have been belaboring it.
And by the way, in my explanation above of why Genis simply didn’t have a vasectomy or something, I neglected to mention the most obvious aspect: That Genis had witnessed the birth of Ely in that time-jumping issue you just referenced. He was screwing with history badly enough as it was, and was trying to minimize the damage.
PAD
Thanks you for your answers, Peter! 🙂
Great issue PAD, with an ending that really puts things in perspective. The Hitler analogy was really a potent one for Genis, especially since he’s seen the future and knows the evil being his son will one day become. It makes the reader think, and that’s one of the qualities of your work that I’ve really enjoyed over the years.
*sigh* Well, one more to go, eh? So be it then.
I’ll admit that I had the dubious distinction of reading Captain Marvel #24 during a family breakfast — on Father’s Day. Eep. Talk about doubling the emotional whammy of the ending; I’m sure my dropping jaw was visible to everyone else in the restaurant.
Peter, did you and/or Marvel deliberately planned to have CM #24 come out on that particular weekend, by chance?
“Peter, did you and/or Marvel deliberately planned to have CM #24 come out on that particular weekend, by chance?”
Good lord, no. First of all, it didn’t come out “on that particular weekend,” it came out the previous Wednesday, as always. And second, I’m generally oblivious to exact release dates.
PAD
This one hit me, probably because I have kids. A final panel littered with bodies wouldn’t have hit me harder (well, depending on what the bodies were).
The comics I see today seem to have stratified into light and dark–I don’t see much middle ground anymore. This comic was so dark and so disturbing to me (at the end) that I’m wondering if I can continue to read comics. I dunno. It’s just weird to me that people are saying “great story” about infantcide, although I understand what they meant to say.
I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade. I love PAD’s writing, and will continue to seek it out (and I’m sure I’ll continue to read comics, despite my musings in the last paragraph). I guess what I take out of the story is that I would never be able to make the choice CM did. I guess the universe would have died if it were me in his seat, because I’d never stop believing that there was another way.
In fact, I think that just because CM chose one path doesn’t make it the only way. Sorry–I refuse to believe it, even in a fictional story. Perhaps more strongly because it was a fictional story. Again, sorry–this one just disturbed me, even though I understand the storyteller’s aims (I think).
I’ll be back for #25–I _have_ to see how this turns out.
And the one thing that no-one noticed about that Ely-Genis encounter is that that battle was actually a no-win situation from Ely’s perspective. Had he actually suceeded in killing Genis the end result would have been the same: Ely fading from the timeline(s) because he slammmed up against a variation of that _other_ major time-travel cliche: killing your grandfather before he started having kids. Remember Ely wasn’t battling the Genis who actually fathered him; he was battling the Genis who was _going to father him_ sometime down the line in Genis’s future. And since this Genis has yet to get romantically involved with Songbird no-one on Titan would have had any reason to do a post-mortem conception for her with Genis’s DNA. And since the Magus would have gotten what he wanted out of Ely by that point he would have no reason to care that Ely was no longer around.
• 
I like….I like so much…I feel bad. This idea was also tossed around back in the ol Pantheon days, I think it was the first time I ever heard the theory. Just plain cool. One issue more to go right? Makes me sad…just like your last Issue of Hulk on the regular series..almost cried when I read that book. Ðámņ..I like this so much I’m sad…Ðámņ.
Ðámņ. Very strong ending. It makes you yearn for the days when Genis was insane. Clearly, Genis is not insane since he knows the seriousness of what he is doing.
Actually, I am surprised that Marvel published this. Without revealing things, this has one of the most dramatic homocides since Phoenix destroyed a planet.
Nevertheless, the killing and how it was done was impressive. but disturbing. The week before, I read an issue of THE PUNISHER which had tons of corpes displayed in all their gory. Your ending was much more horrorifing.
Peter, I am curious. Did you know that the book was cancelled when you turned in your script?
Yes, I like the story and will be sad to see it end. But at the same time, I have to wonder where you would have gone from this point.
Yes, I’ll take my comic book story endings, black, with two teaspoons of happy lovebirds.
— Ken from Chicago
P.S. Why didn’t he simply resolve to use protection?
P.P.S. What about Agent Leslie Steele & Hubbie and the one-armed, one-legged, no-headed Cabana boy? What about them?!!
whoa
Kudos to you, PAD. This must be the best issue of Captain Marvel I’ve read since this long, strange ride began.
I’d say more, but I’m in a speechless mood now.
Definitely the best of the recent issues. I’m expecting the next to be another big, emotional slam-bang of a climax. Very sorry to see this one go.
And I’m with Ken…when do we get a Agent Leslie Steele mini? Or “Leslie Steele Adventures” entries?
I wondered the same thing as Ken from Chicago – why didn’t Genis just not father Ely? The only explanation that I could come up with is that he had already “lived” that morning (during a fast forward to the future – can’t remember what issue) and so couldn’t affect any events before then, using the time travel “rules” that Peter was employing in this story. Am I right, Peter? 🙂
This is definitely my favorite arc since the relaunch. I didn’t know Marlo or the other secondary characters when the arc began, but I think I knew them well enough by the conclusion to have an emotional stake in them.
I think it’s interesting that the arc was called “Odyssey,” because I felt that the story was primarily concerned with destinations, not journies. It was a story about things ending. And all I can say in response is, “Not yet! I was just getting into it!”
C’est la vie.
I’d really be curious about anything Peter has to say about his own reactions when he thought of the ending, given he’s a father multiple times and still has recent memories of Caroline being Ely’s age at the end.
Btw, there was another book out this week with a somewhat similar ending. Spoilers for its title, then more space and its specific plot.
Book was Authority
Jenny Quantum (age 4) has an evil twin, Jenny Fractal, who’s destroying Earth and who’s killed JQ. JQ’s adoptive father goes back in time and kills JF shortly after she’s born, leading to JQ’s soul inhabiting JF’s body. Said father’s feeling considerable guilt about killing a baby who, at the time he killed it, was still an innocent. While we presumably won’t see a followup on Genis’ aftermath, I thought Peter’s version was better and more unexpected.
AUGH! Those last two pages nearly made me scream (in a good way). As it was, I must’ve made some awful faces since the man on the bus next to me asked if I was feeling okay.
It made me wonder, though; as others have pointed out, there are multiple ways to make sure that timeline never happened; ask uncle Eros where to get a vasectomy, try to keep Melissa and Abe’s relationship together so that she’ll never marry Genis, etc. It would’ve been nice if it were clearer why Genis chose the path he did; was it because the events he witnessed back in the v3 flashforward “already happened” and cannot be undone, but the rest of the future is mutable? Is it because the plan he took was the first thing that came to mind, and by the time he thought of another course of action the one he had promised Ely he would take was locked in by its causality? Or is it because, in spite of everything he’s been through in the past five years’ worth of comics, and everything he ‘knows’ about the universe, he just isn’t that smart? I loved the issue (though it left me pretty sad, I must confess), it just would’ve been nice to know why that was his sole option (beyond the obvious “it’s more poigniant and dramatic, and will hang over his and the readers’ heads in whatever book he appears in next”)
I actually thought he was gonna stop having sex and never even give Ely the chance to be concieved…but this was way more dramatic.
Once again…”Boo-Hoo, im sad “
PAD – Wow, you’re right, that was pretty twisted.
It was definately a “Ðámņ…Ðámņ!” type of ending to this story. I was surprised by Genis action, also due in large part to PAD’s rather recent fatherhood experiences – with a two-year-old son and another child on the way in a month or so (holy crap, is it really that close?), I just don’t think I could have reached the same ending. I mean, could he not have just started an argument with Songbird on the night of the conception, or told her he had a headache or something else that would guarantee that Ely would not be concieved? While it was definately well-done dramatically, I just have to question if that was Genis’ only option.
Outside of that, dámņ good, and I have to say that I’m really going to miss the Leslie Steele recaps in the Previously pages…
Yeah, count me among those who thought he’d resolved to get a vasectomy, and was just being touchy because he wasn’t keen on getting Littel Genis sliced (especially since, as Kree/Eternal hybrid, it’d probably take some pretty drastic steps to make it permanent).
Very powerful ending to a terrific story. Does this series really have to come to an end??? Oh well, I am already looking forward to MadroX. Especially since X-Factor was my first PAD comic.
Count me in, too. I’d assumed in reading that he’d pledged himself to a life of celibacy or sterility. The idea of actually killing Eby just never occurred.
Brr. Well done.
TWL
Honestly, I thought he was going to obliterate himself to prevent any possibility of his having offspring, possibly in ish 25. Even a vasectomy would have sufficed (as others have stated). I totally didn’t see that ending coming as I was expecting something far more heroic and selfless. I mean, he conceived this child with the full intention of killing him… wicked!
Or he could’ve chosen abstinence. It would have gelled perfectly with the Magus’ assertion that Genis had ruined any chance of happiness for himself. 🙂
StaR
Don’t forget that Genis is also supposed to have a daughter, Mimi, who died as a hero. Sterilizing himself isn’t an option, unless he wants to eliminate BOTH his children from history.
And considering that Genis himself was conceived using a genetic sample (rather than natural mating) sterlizing himself, or using protection, or abstaining from sex, would not 100% guarantee that Ely couldn’t be conceived.
Killing Ely was the only way he could be totally sure that it would work.
Peter
I was shocked at the ending of this issue! I had to re-read the last couple of pages to make sure I’d seen what was going on…it floored me.
But thank you SO MUCH for putting Rick and Marlo back together.
Dave
It very much fit in with the tragic arc the Captain has been on since ish #1 (the second one). I say Kudos for following through with the twisted and doomed nature of this character. I would have been disappointed if you’d softened up and given him a happy ending. Personally I thought it was the best moment in the series since he confronted Pappa Captain (probably nothing can ever top that in this book for me). Also I was floored by the intensity of Moondragon’s part in the ish.
Question: did Rick “witness” the last page, via their connection? I would love it if the last ish were light on action and heavy on some more of their introspective/philosophical dialogue, which the book has been a little light on lately. That’s where I think this book really shines.
Pete
I have to agree with everyone that it’s sad this title is ending with #25. Makes you wonder if the current story line would have stayed on this course had there been an issue 26, 27, etc.; let alone what would have happened next.
But only Peter can answer that.
(hint, hint)
A thought occurs to me that’ll probably sound like Heresy to you folks: I actually Don’t wish CM would go on and on forever. This isn’t to say that I haven’t enjoyed the book immensely. At its best it tends to be my favorite issue of the month. This is certainly true of the first five issues (after the relaunch). However, the Captain has had such a tragic path for the last two dozen issues that I’m really craving for some closure in the form of a Tragic Ending.
Am I alone?
To put it another way, I love Hamlet, but I think I’d probably hate Hamlet:the series.
The last page of this issue really has me drooling for that finale. Can it get any darker? It seems clear to me what the next phase of the story should be, but this book is nothing if not constantly surprising.
I’m curious as to how far PAD wanted the book to go, how many issues he would have written before he’d given it an ending or abandoned the project.
Pete
This issue was the most heartbreaking ending I have ever seen. Before this that title belonged to your final issue of your hulk run. I loved it so much that I don’t want to see this book end. When I saw what was happening at first I (like others have said) figured Genis would just abort his whole relationship with Songbird or at the very least prevent himself from being able to create Ely. And so when I got to the final few pages I was surprised but in a good way. I did some thinking on how and why Genis did what he did. I re-read issue 19 from Vol. 3. and I think I began to understand. My interpretation after thinking about it as to why he just didn’t father Ely? Why he just would never get together with Melissa or use a condom? or something… WHy he had to Kill Ely the way he did. It plays all back into the whole cosmic awareness thing and his insanity resulting from it. The whole “this is how it has to be!” deal. He knew himself and he knew he couldn’t bring himself when the times arose to do anything else. He couldn’t see himself giving up the love of his life, or his first child, or even the night of passion that brough Ely into the world. He has though in the past killed many people, including his father (though that was in a different timeline). He could kill Ely because Ely would be corrupted by him. Turned to the horrible evil merely by Genis’ actions throughout his life by the whole insanity/sanity thing that Genis himself couldn’t really escape. Go back to being insane (opening up an even more destructive posibility) or stick to one line of destiny as best as possible (killing Ely being the biggest revision) that he threw himself into when he decided to avoid the insanity.
Overall Great issue Peter! I am so sorry to see this book ending, now more than ever.
I’ll voice a different opinion. I didn’t like the conclusion. It is just sensationalist, there could have been many others ways of resolving the situation, many have been mentioned here. I hope issue 25 will conclude the serie in much better a way, because this storyline ending was really disappointing for me.
Great story PAD:
I loved the ultimate time travel paradox…
Would you go back in time and kill Hitler as a baby?
I could feel the pain that Genis was experiencing in this story, and the way his son was smiling at him just before the end made me wish that the series was not ending.
Every time you get a series and turn it into gold it gets terminated:
Supergirl
Aquaman
Hulk
I hope that your Fallen Angel and MadroX series have long and healthly runs.
Keep up the great work.
Regards:
Warren S. Jones III
Warren, I think that Supergirl was gold long before it was canceled. Supergirl #50 makes the short list of my alltime favorite comics. In my opionion, the book was in decline when DC canceled it (waaay too many mandatory EVENT crossovers dragging down the storyline).
And now a message for Genis:
“Prepare yourself! Your fall is nearly come! The Doom of the House of Atreus is upon you!”
We now return you to normal reality.
I have a feeling the CM is going to become a major villian in the Marvel U. soon. Correect? He would make a GREAT Avengers foe. But I do hope Rick is seperated from him before that happens, or at least that is the crux of the Avengers going after CM, to save Rick.
I am kinda glad this is ending, did not think Peter had much more story about Genisis, in him. Time for MaddoX!
I can only reply by making SPOILERS, so please be warned:
I did very much like this issue, but I have to wonder. They may have been one other solution to the dillemma: All he had to do was leave Marlo and never concieve a child with her. It would probably require just as strong a resolve as what he eventually did (although much less of a dramatic effect, of course).
Also, Moondragon has gone evil Again? Back in her ‘Defenders’ days she was a thrall of the ‘Dragon of the Moon’, now she is a thrall of the Magus. Unless this is resolved in the final issue, this situation is due to hang in limbo for a long while
Thanks for the great issue, PAD 🙂
OK- the ending of this issue was TERRIFIC! I really liked it a lot. Heck, I loved it.
I just hope that it doesn’t get undone by whatever happens after the series ends. I mean, yeah, it’s an undisclosed amount in the future, so it’s pretty likely to be safe, unless Marv is… I dunno, Killed, or something as extreme as that. I hope it remains a part of his character- that he WILL do this. I love it.
Supposedly, Marv will be in another series after this… a team series…
Travis
In terms of story logic, my feeling was thus: That in order for Marv to rewrite, literally, centuries worth of history, he had to envision with crystal clarity one defining moment. A “memorable” moment, as it were, since the entire series has been about how people will be remembered. It’s impossible to envision “I’ll be celibate.” Granted, yes, he could have gotten snipped, but ending the story that way would have felt like a joke. So instead he focused all his cosmic-related willpower on one mentally foreseeable moment and dictated what his actions would be, and that’s what wiped the guy out.
And in a purely philosophical vein: No one ever says, “What if you could go back in time and kill Hitler’s mother? The question is always, “If you could kill the infant Hitler in his cradle, would you?” There’s simply no emotional resonance to “If you could go back in time and convince Hitler’s father to have a vasectomy, would you?” The end of the story would simply have fallen flat if it had gone any other way. Furthermore, the entire theme of the story was “How will you be remembered?” And Marv, who had been wondering about it all this time, is certain by the end that he’ll be remembered as the guy who killed his son in the cradle.
PAD
Well, that caught me by surprise. Like everyone I assumed Genis was resolving not to conceive Ely. But since he witnessed his birth, I suppose that was part of his own history, even though it was in the future.
Scott commented on the title ‘Odyssey,’ I think it’s a reference to the Illiad and the Odyssey. At the end, Odysseus returns home after years have passed only to do battle with his son.
I’m scraping away the crusty layers of my memory, and remembering an Adam Warlock/Quasar issue that has Wendell split into his different incarnations and asked ethical questions at different phases in his life. One of those was would he kill Hitler as a child to save the world. And I WAANT to say there was some side reference to the previous Protector of the Universe (Marv’s dad) having undergone the same trial– was the Hitler question part of it then, or has my memory totally mucked it up?
Frank Castle and the kid seem to take on new implications.
PAD wrote:
And in a purely philosophical vein: No one ever says, “What if you could go back in time and kill Hitler’s mother? The question is always, “If you could kill the infant Hitler in his cradle, would you?” There’s simply no emotional resonance to “If you could go back in time and convince Hitler’s father to have a vasectomy, would you?”
Actually, the question “What if you could make Hitler’s mother infertile?” is very much integral to the plot of Stephen Fry’s Making History, which to my mind is one of his best novels.
As for Cap Marvel, this was indeed one of the most disturbing endings I’ve read in comics, while also one that makes sense from the character’s point of view and his development in the series. Too bad the series is coming to a close, because it would have been very interesting to see how he could live with himself after that.
Not since reading What Savage Beast (Pad’s hulk novel which is still avaiable on amazon) has an ending to a story left me so drained. To be honest after marvel became sane, or at least stopped acting out, i thought his character could no longer shock me. I was wrong. Big time wrong. While I loved the story I do question the wisdom of Marv’s characterzation. Like Hal Jordon ten years ago, Marv character will forever be defined by a moment that does not occur, from his perspective, years into the future. Then again When Hal Jordon snapped and died it made go form a second string character never used to the most in demand character in Dc history so Marv’s defining moment might lead to a relaunch of the series.
Wow. What a story. I’m gonna miss this book dearly. I’ve never been disappointed with any issue. A solid read from cover to cover. I’m anxious on how things wrap up, but sad that it’s almost over as well. Ðámņáŧìøņš!
Well, I’m just gonna quote the other Captain Marvel and go, “Holy moley.”
It made me cry.
I haven’t cried reading something since I read the… well What Savage Beast when Betty is rocking her baby.
Wow!
(and forgive the next comments, saying favourable things about a book that isn’t written by PAD)
So, I sit down in my favourite coffee shop here in Winnipeg, and pull out two comics. First, I get hit by the whammy known as ‘Identity Crisis #1’. After reading it, I sit there staring at the wall for a while, thinking ‘why can’t more comics be written this well?’.
Second, I pull out Captain Marvel #24. Whammo all over again. It is nice seeing real surprises in comics, particularily in two separate titles back-to-back like that (of course, it then made the remaining three books I read after that pale by comparison), and makes me hope that more books of this quality can come out and actually be purchased.
There is a curious comparison between IC#1 and CM#24, however. I won’t reveal any spoilers (for the 2 or 3 of you out there who haven’t read these two books), but with IC#1 you figure out pretty early on what ‘big event’ is going to happen, but spend the entire time hoping that it doesn’t until it happens. Conversely, with CM#24, you think you figure out pretty early on what ‘big event’ is going to happen, and then at the last moment find out it is something else entirely! Just a comparison of two well-written books, both showing what is possible in this funnybook medium.
Two more things. First, I like how my earlier question about why the Titanic is in such good shape was answered …
…and, second, what the heck is a ‘headless cabana’ anyway 🙂
In refrence to Lesters comment about Hal Jordan…I do believe there gonna give him back the ring, cause i heard he’s gonna stop being the specter…which in my opinion is bunk! Hal taking out the corps was the best thing to happen to the GL series…now there gonna make it stale again just so they can make some bucks off the return of the “greatest”.I personally dont want to see more floating green bubbles and the lamest imagination of any character of all time…
wow, sorry…went on a rant there.
P.S. I too wonder where the story line in CM would go after #25, I mean after the events in 24…you just want to know how Peter would top that story (and you know he would!).
Personally, I doubt the ‘Genis stays celibate’ or ‘has a vasectomy’ options would ever have worked. Even if he resolves and holds to the resolve for the first or has the operation of the second choice, the super-science of Titan means his direct participation is unneeded.
I can just see Songbird arranging a ‘secret’ cell sample, using some of the ultra tech used to corral Genis a few issues back so he doesn’t find out. All his wonderful resolve is made worthless and there’s no way he can tell anyone why it’s a BAD IDEA!
Sadly the only way to be certain Eli never grows up to be the threat his father knows will come is to make certain it is impossible. And there was only one way to do that.
I actually respect the character more for this ending. It’s easy to do the right thing when it doesn’t really cost you much, if anything.
This was a very costly solution.
Peter, CM#24’s finale is getting debated over in RAC.MU. After my initial post here about why didn’t Genis “use protection” (and after seeing other people post the same question) it occurred to me one point and you tangentially touch on it in your comment upthread that Genis was focusing on one “memorable” moment, and he says at the end that he knew “this day” was coming, which leads to one question:
Did Genis focus on a particular TIME or did he focus on a particular CONDITION?
Cuz it seemed to me that it was the latter, that whatever *plans* to be either celibate or to use “protection”, like so many humans, not every pregnancy is planned, and instead of getting an abortionm, Genis hesitated and hoped maybe he was wrong–or that “something” would “happen” to the mother or more to the point, to the pregnancy, until finally the baby was born.
Now if he was watching ANGEL the tv series or read MAGIK the Marvel Comics mini-series or THE DARK PHOENIX SAGA, then he would know he could raise the best child but said offspring could be kidnapped into some horrific dimension by some psychotic megalomaniac and brainwashed into turning into the worst supervillain.
Shirley Genis knew he had to “act” before Ely was out of his control.
— Ken from Chicago
P.S. Peter, is there some dark-off you’re having between your latest entries in your King Arthur, Sir Appropos, Star Trek: New Frontier, Fallen Angel and Captain Marvel series to have the bleakest story finale?
This is by far the most powerful issue of…of anything that I have read in any number of years. I’ve made everyone I know read it; even without knowing a thing about anyone inside the pages, it hit them hard. My mother even cried.
I’m floored PAD. Just….floored.
Peter:
I enjoyed both “Crazy like a Fox” and “Odyssey”. The way you resolved the “Genis-replacing-Legacy” story was a clever one.
I have some questions about this last story:
1) Who was the man with red eyes that snapped Genis’ neck in VOL. 3 #19? Ely?
I saw that this made full circle with the current story: Genis was remembered as a murderer. I believe the death of Melissa and Mimi is negated when he warned Marlo to be checked when she gets ill (by the bacterial attack from the Shi’ar, Kree and Skrull), and this flashback gets erased.
2) What was your plan with the flashback of Magus impersonating Starfox and Moondragon kicking Genis (same issue)?
3) We’ll see Genis traveling to the Destiny War as depicted in Avengers Forever? You showed in VOL. 3 #20 the moment Rick Jones travelled to the Destiny War as an old man, that’s because I put this question to you.
Feel free to answer or not those questions. I put them here because you said that issue #25 resolves “every single aspect of the book” so I reread my backissues and remember those loose story threads…
By the way, I bought the FALLEN ANGEL TPB, and it’s amazing!! The first chapter was superb and the cast of characters are a great fun. I’ll run to my comic shop and buy all the back issues to the current one… David’s art is terrific!
Believe me that when I read Harlan Ellison’s Mr. David Lopez Blanco, Argentina Existentialist reference being the creator of Bete Noire I almost fell 🙂
Congrats for this great book.
Thanks!
“1) Who was the man with red eyes that snapped Genis’ neck in VOL. 3 #19? Ely?”
No. It was a new character I was going to be introducing later this year, back when I thought there was going to be a later this year.
“2) What was your plan with the flashback of Magus impersonating Starfox and Moondragon kicking Genis (same issue)?”
I was laying the groundwork for that with the current storyline…except, well, now it’ll never happen. Eventually it was going to be revealed that Moondragon was actually hosing the Magus, convincing him that he had totally dominated her when in fact she was working to see what his ultimate goals were.
“3) We’ll see Genis traveling to the Destiny War as depicted in Avengers Forever? You showed in VOL. 3 #20 the moment Rick Jones travelled to the Destiny War as an old man, that’s because I put this question to you.”
That sequence in #20 was pretty much the extent of my endeavor to address the Destiny War sequence. Beyond that, I think I’d have been belaboring it.
And by the way, in my explanation above of why Genis simply didn’t have a vasectomy or something, I neglected to mention the most obvious aspect: That Genis had witnessed the birth of Ely in that time-jumping issue you just referenced. He was screwing with history badly enough as it was, and was trying to minimize the damage.
PAD
Thanks you for your answers, Peter! 🙂
Great issue PAD, with an ending that really puts things in perspective. The Hitler analogy was really a potent one for Genis, especially since he’s seen the future and knows the evil being his son will one day become. It makes the reader think, and that’s one of the qualities of your work that I’ve really enjoyed over the years.
*sigh* Well, one more to go, eh? So be it then.
I’ll admit that I had the dubious distinction of reading Captain Marvel #24 during a family breakfast — on Father’s Day. Eep. Talk about doubling the emotional whammy of the ending; I’m sure my dropping jaw was visible to everyone else in the restaurant.
Peter, did you and/or Marvel deliberately planned to have CM #24 come out on that particular weekend, by chance?
“Peter, did you and/or Marvel deliberately planned to have CM #24 come out on that particular weekend, by chance?”
Good lord, no. First of all, it didn’t come out “on that particular weekend,” it came out the previous Wednesday, as always. And second, I’m generally oblivious to exact release dates.
PAD
This one hit me, probably because I have kids. A final panel littered with bodies wouldn’t have hit me harder (well, depending on what the bodies were).
The comics I see today seem to have stratified into light and dark–I don’t see much middle ground anymore. This comic was so dark and so disturbing to me (at the end) that I’m wondering if I can continue to read comics. I dunno. It’s just weird to me that people are saying “great story” about infantcide, although I understand what they meant to say.
I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade. I love PAD’s writing, and will continue to seek it out (and I’m sure I’ll continue to read comics, despite my musings in the last paragraph). I guess what I take out of the story is that I would never be able to make the choice CM did. I guess the universe would have died if it were me in his seat, because I’d never stop believing that there was another way.
In fact, I think that just because CM chose one path doesn’t make it the only way. Sorry–I refuse to believe it, even in a fictional story. Perhaps more strongly because it was a fictional story. Again, sorry–this one just disturbed me, even though I understand the storyteller’s aims (I think).
I’ll be back for #25–I _have_ to see how this turns out.
And the one thing that no-one noticed about that Ely-Genis encounter is that that battle was actually a no-win situation from Ely’s perspective. Had he actually suceeded in killing Genis the end result would have been the same: Ely fading from the timeline(s) because he slammmed up against a variation of that _other_ major time-travel cliche: killing your grandfather before he started having kids. Remember Ely wasn’t battling the Genis who actually fathered him; he was battling the Genis who was _going to father him_ sometime down the line in Genis’s future. And since this Genis has yet to get romantically involved with Songbird no-one on Titan would have had any reason to do a post-mortem conception for her with Genis’s DNA. And since the Magus would have gotten what he wanted out of Ely by that point he would have no reason to care that Ely was no longer around.
Just some food for thought.
Chris