On very, very rare occasions, I employ a tactic utilized by Professor Kingsfield in the pilot episode of “The Paper Chase.” In that episode, young student Mr. Hart proves so inept, so worthless, that Kingsfield “shrouds” him. Akin to “shunning” in certain societies, it means that the person is effectively dead. He will never be called upon or acknowledged or responded to in any way. Far more effective than taking steps to shut someone up, it allows them to shout into the wind as much as they wish. I consider it a far more elegant solution than censorship.
Peterdavid.net officially shrouds Dee and his/her various personalities. Dee, who gives conservatives a bad name, is dead to this board. As far as I am concerned, he/she/it no longer exists.
I invite others to follow my lead or not, as they see fit.
PAD
• 
Favorite movies…
The Crow, Clerks, Conan the Barbarian, On the Beach (the old one with Fred Astaire… one of the best Post-Apocalyptic out there), The Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Dr. Strangelove… the list continues… how can you choose just one???
Yep, I had forgotten about GraveMold/Black Shadow. Yeah same guy, I think he may have had one or two other identities he used. Been meaning to re-read the whole seires, but portions of book 2 and most of 4 and 5 start to kinda bore me a bit. 6 was probably the best.
The Dueces one came out last year, haven’t seen it in paperback yet, the title is “Dueces Down” George R.R. Martin Editor is how it’s listed on the spine.
Wild Cards is by far the most “Realistic” super-hero genre stuff I’ve read.
To Marc Grant: Absolutely. Also Comics America for those of you who don’t know.
Been around the business for 44 years now. (and I’m not all that old, which is scary!)
To Bladestar: Y’know…..I just thought about “Joe Mama”. A Play on words? Aw, c’mon.
To Boycott or whatever the hëll your name is: Everyone will hate me when I say that I agree about Ray Charles. It was a shame. He died of liver disease, which is a miserable way to go. (My mom had liver cancer…long story, so I know of where I speak.)
Ray Charles really was a treasure, practically inventing “soul” music as we originally knew it.
God bless you, Ray.
And for that matter, God Bless Ronald Reagan.
now there is some fodder for controversy!
The WILDCARDS series did rock,I think that was what disappointed me with some of the New Universe titles.Oh of course i loved the ones written by PAD!!!(yes im brownnosing:))Seriously ,it seemed like a lot of untapped or poorly executed ideas (Spitfire,Starbrand),while some titles were enjoyable (Justice,Psiforce) it was clear there was some help needed there.
WILDCARDS was the first series i saw that had some fairly unique metahuman powers.I seem to recall a female assassin who killed men when she
was (ahem)sexually satisfied,the Astronomer and
i want to say the Jumpers i thought were pretty unique.Some books were better than others ,unfortunately my originals were destroyed,i have some left but may have have to buy the new set to have a complete run.
“Do the words Winnipeg and Styx mean anything to you?”
Well, I’ve never been to Winnipeg, but I did see the Styx “Kilroy Was Here” tour in San Diego…
“For those who don’t know… “Serenity” has actually started filming already (started last monday).”
I didn’t know that…fabulous news, thanks for the update!
“Well, I’ve never been to Winnipeg”
I live there. You ain’t missing too much. 😀
Just some background on Winnipeg and Styx:
Winnipeg is the capitol of Manitoba, with a populatioin of approximately 675,000 plus outlying areas. It’s located at the junction of the Red and Assiniboine rivers (otherwise known as The Forks, a terrific tourist attraction here in the city.
Among other things, Winnipeg boasts the largest urban population of native North American Elm Trees, as well as a disproportionately large number of comics and sf fans for the size of its human population.
The city has its origins back in the fur-trading days when both Upper and Lower Fort Garry were major outposts for the Hudson’s Bay Company. The city experienced unrivaled growth during the first two decades of the 20th Century, eventually becoming Canada’s third-largest city. That position has since been eclipsed by major centers like Vancouver, Calgary, and Edmonton, and we’re currently about 7th.
STYX was (and technically still is) the oldest comic mail order service anywhere, having its start in the early 1960s. (I think we had the name before the band did.) It later grew into Styx International, one of the largest distributors of comics and related products anywhere, which was subsequently decimated when events of 1994 and 1995 unfolded. I think it was either the fourth or fifth direct distributor (after Big Rapids, Seagate, New Media/Irjax, and possibly Comics Unlimited, although I’m not exactly sure when Ron and Walter started in distribution so there could be controversy there).
Just some interesting (I hope) trivia for you. Should give Peter some nostalgic memories.
I type faster than the computer can keep up. Hence the typos and missing parentheses. That’s “population”.
It also appears that our city has a disproportionate number of members of this forum for the size of its population.
Also, it’s a great place to live, at least most of the time. Low crime rate (relatively), great summers (although this year is off to a slow start). Downsides: Long and cruel winters (mostly), mosquitoes in the summer (occasionally the size of your thumbs or so it seems), and a less than desirable tax situation which works as a disincentive to business and property ownership, but which may be subject to revision once the election on June 22 for Mayor and City Council is resolved. Stay tuned for up-to-the-minute reports (as if you might care…..)
Hey Joe, who’s your favourite for mayor? I’ve been focusing on the federal election, so all I’ve been hearing is Sam Katz this, Dan Vandal that.
Although before I ask that, I suppose I should find out what you thought of Murray, see if we’re on the same political page…:)
Hi “Hank”. First of all, what’s your real name. I might know you for real.
Anyways, I always found Murray to be a triumph of “style over substance”. In my opinion he was the civic representative of the Provincial NDP, was not fiscally prudent, and tended to advocate projects which were more monuments to his tenure in office than useful embellishments to the city.
Sam might make a good mayor. I say “might” because there are some things that may be nagging people, particularly after the recent articles in the local paper.
I know this sounds bizarre, but I have a feeling that of all people, Al Golden just might be the best choice because if nothing else he has the most to prove if he’s elected.
I would have run, but alas, I would have been only a fringe candidate at best…..sigh…..
CSO Said
**Conan the Barbarian**
Ack, ack spit spit… yuck.
Sorry… a true Robert E. Howard fan here.
Can’t -ING stand that movie.
Travis
Just to chime in on the Wild Cards love, there was a joker character named Shroud; he was one of the “Jokers for a Just Society” folks that kidnapped Sen. Hartmann in Germany during Aces Abroad. I don’t recall much more about him, but I do remember he was wrapped in bandages.
The real name’s Jeff Lawson…you probably wouldn’t know me, I just came out here from sunny Minnedosa a few years ago for university.
Anyone who uses nasty language and personal attacks like Dee repeatedly in public forums is an áššhølë whatever their political views. I like this shroud idea.
Yeesh, you know what, Joe Krolik; I think I worked for you back in the day… back when Styx was just a small, one-store front shop on (or just off?) Arlington.
Even though I left to go on to other things, I still shopped there, and at the Corydon store up until I moved to Europe for a while. What a small world.
For those who don’t know, Winnipeg is often overlooked, but a cultural mecca with great theater, opera, symphony and unique restaurants. I live near Toronto due to work, but I hope to eventually move back to Winnipeg.
And as fot Styx and Joe Krolik… Joe was into comics back before they became ‘important’ or ‘collector’s items’ before they were ‘graphic novels’, he’s one of the original fanboys and treats his customers and their purchases with great respect. Good to see you’re still at it, Joe.
This may seem off-topic, but then isn’t the topic to ignore the topic?
My two cents on the Winnipeg Mayoral election:
I think Golden has been playing the minors for a long time and deserves a chance to move up to the ‘Big Show’ (using a lingo Katz can understand).
Despite his fiscal faults, Murray did provide Winnipeg with some profile on a National level.
Hey, we’re talking about Wild Cards here? Cool!
Patrick, you’re right, there was a “Shroud” in Wild Cards, wasn’t there. But, was he the one wrapped in bandages? I thought that was Stigmata. Or, perhaps, am I mixed up? There probably were more several jokers in the series who had to wear bandages, come to think of it.
Deano: “WILDCARDS was the first series i saw that had some fairly unique metahuman powers.I seem to recall a female assassin who killed men when she
was (ahem)sexually satisfied,”
Roulette!
“the Astronomer and
i want to say the Jumpers i thought were pretty unique”
I was never a fan of the jumpers, but I do agree that Wild Cards had some interesting, imaginative powers: Croyd Crenson and Mark Meadows both come to mind.
Bladestar … “Yep, I had forgotten about GraveMold/Black Shadow. Yeah same guy, I think he may have had one or two other identities he used. Been meaning to re-read the whole seires, but portions of book 2 and most of 4 and 5 start to kinda bore me a bit. 6 was probably the best.”
Mr. Gravemold, Black Shadow and Wallwalker were the three main ones, as I recall.
Book 2 bores you??? That kinda surprises me, as many fans consider that the best one. The only story in that one that doesn’t really work well for me is the Water Lily one by Pat Cadigan. Everything else in that one is pretty arresting, I always felt.
I re-read the whole series about three years ago, and it’s definitely a fun read — but it is taxing in parts. I agree with you that 4 gets dull. Actually, I think that one is a REAL chore to get through. But it’s worth it, as it sets up the wonderful material in Books 6 and 7 (the two best ones, in my opinion).
From there, it gets pretty patchy, I think. 8 through 11 are a pretty weak arc, with the good points few and far between. But 12-15 are all pretty kick-ášš, I think.
“The Dueces one came out last year, haven’t seen it in paperback yet, the title is “Dueces Down” George R.R. Martin Editor is how it’s listed on the spine.”
It’s a very low-key affair … certainly not worth the seven-year hiatus. I e-mailed George Martin about when Book 17 is expected. It is apparently still in the works. The idea was, apparently, that there’d be a new trilogy (18-20) if Books 16 and 17 were successful. But I don’t get the impression that 16 did all that well, and since it’s now been two years and we still haven’t seen 17, I think the momentum is pretty much dead.
I expect that 17 will be good — it’s meant to finally tell the story of John Fortune, the much-prophecied-about child of Peregrine and Fortunato. While it’d be nice to see more books flow from that, I expect it’ll be the capper to the series and the Wild Cards universe.
“Wild Cards is by far the most “Realistic” super-hero genre stuff I’ve read.”
Agreed! It’s a great series! For a while I wanted to do a webpage about it, but the task was kind of daunting. Seeing that there are still other fans with fond memories of the series makes me think that perhaps I should do it, though …
Jason Powell
I think I didn’t like Book 2 because of the way the Astronomer was built up as so powerful, plus the alien invasion thing didn’t click for me for some reason. Same with the Jumpers arc. I guess it’s because the jumpers powers were the same from Jumper to Jumper, but technically the jumpers weren’t truly “Wild Cards”, unless their creation was a very specific mutation of the Wild Card virus. (I won’t spoil how one becomes a Jumper because A) some may not have read that far, and B) it may make quite a few people real squeamish.)
Croyd is da man, from the first book on Croyd was my favorite Ace/Joker/Duece (if you know the character, you’ll know why I refer to him like that 🙂 )
I do feel sorry for Golden Boy though. And I miss Demise…
More Jay Ackroyd is good for me any day.
Oh shrouded insane poster with four names…
Saying that Ray Charles deserves some mention is the first thing you’ve said with any merit.
Well, Blade, I’ll agree to disagree on Book II. (I’m just happy to talk W.C. with a fellow fan!) I like it, ’cause it really brings together all the disparate characters from Book I in a very clever way. And while it’s a little farcical on one level, I enjoyed the thread of the “bowling ball” that kept getting handed off from one character to the next.
“I guess it’s because the jumpers powers were the same from Jumper to Jumper, but technically the jumpers weren’t truly “Wild Cards”, unless their creation was a very specific mutation of the Wild Card virus.”
If I’m interpreting correctly, you’re saying that the Jumpers don’t obey the “rules” laid down about how the wild card virus worked? If so, I think I agree. That always bothered me a bit about the jumpers as well, the rather weird way that they come about. (Although note that Loophole — the creator of the Jumpers — DID carry a mutation strain of the virus: His power came from Typhoid Croyd.)
I also won’t give away how the Jumpers are created — it’s pretty twisted. But I always wondered … how in god’s name did he ever discover that power? It must have taken *quite* a while before he noticed a pattern in the recipients of his … gift. Know what I mean?
Plus, four books of Jumper-related stuff was just too many. I got so sick of them over the course of Books VIII through XI.
Conversely, I loved how the jumpers were used in a far more covert and sinister way in the subsequent Card Sharks arc. It also helped that by this point, there were only one or two of them left from the massacre of Book XI.
“Croyd is da man, from the first book on Croyd was my favorite Ace/Joker/Duece (if you know the character, you’ll know why I refer to him like that 🙂 )”
Croyd is great, and I loved the way Zelazny wrote him. Particularly in Books II and V, when he was established in the present. Great stuff!
“I do feel sorry for Golden Boy though.”
His quasi-redemption in Book VI is a high point in the series, though, no?
“And I miss Demise…”
Did you say you hadn’t read Deuces Down yet? One of the stories in that volume takes place in the midst of the gangwars from Book V, and Demise plays kind of an interesting role. Actually, he’s pretty well-characterized, in my opinion.
“More Jay Ackroyd is good for me any day.”
No argument! It’d be nice to see him in Book XVII, but since it’ll probably take place in 2002 or 2003, that’d give us a Jay who’s pushing sixty. I personlly would love to see him playing a role in the new book akin to Steven Hill on “Law and Order,” with Mr. Nobody, Peter Pann and Topper as his movers and shakers.
Jason
Good point apbout Demise in Dueces Down, but with the way his powers work, I thibnk he stopped aging, and could’ve had plenty of life left.
Although with Dr. Tachyon off on Takis and Dr. Finn, Medicine Centaur (make a great TV show) gone too, I wonder just who’s watching that urn and just how effective Demise’s regenrative powers are…
Did love the climax of the Jumper-arc when they launched the assualt on the island, some great stuff to just visualize in that one.
That was part of what helped make WC so strong, when an author used another’s character, they had to get approval on everything the character did or said in their stories…
Like to see Joss Whedon’s take on a Wild Cards novel… or Spider Robinson…
You’d think they’d need another outbreak to keep enough infected characters around by 2003-2004 considering the rate they been killing alot of them off…
Maybe that’s the Wild Cards-Universe version of 9/11, al Qaeda or maybe some Joker’s rights Terrorist group gets áhøld of a bunch of active spores and releases them into the jet stream or in a WTC-type bombing….
I am so geeking over the WILDCARDS talk.Now i gotta go back and read the books.I am trying to remember Croyd and am pulling a blank.The “jumpers “initiation so to speak was a bit much.I forgot about Fortunato too.Wow!!
Puppetman,and Blaise (Tachyon ‘s grandson) had to be two of the more sinister bad guys in the series.
It would be nice to see a revamp or attempt to launch an ongoing series with the characters.Carnifex,Goldenboy,Yeoman,Mark Meadows,
Black Shadow…im getting all misty
Croyd Crenson, the Sleeper.
“Sleeper waking, meals taking.
Sleeper speeding, people bleeding.”
Ohhhh ,Okay now i got it ,How did I forget the Sleeper?????Now there is a power to have,though it
did have some drawbacks as i recall.
“But I don’t get the impression that 16 did all that well, and since it’s now been two years and we still haven’t seen 17, I think the momentum is pretty much dead.”
I said this to the guy at my local comic store at the time Deuces Down (which I still haven’t read) came out: they made a big mistake making it hardcover and focusing on little known and new characters. Since the series had been out of the public eye for several years by that point, they really needed to concentrate on the popular characters (and maybe even do another mosaic novel) to catch everyone’s attention again. But definitely I think the hardcover hurt. I know that’s why I didn’t buy it!
Jason, I too have thought about creating a WC website. I was thinking maybe a Wiki or something. That’d be cool. I started taking notes to do so, but got so into rereading the series that I stopped annotating and just enjoyed it. 🙂
Man, now I’m gonna have to reread the series again.
I’ve probably been at the polar opposite of everything political PAD has expressed over the past several months. And I’m a fan–which is why I come here; I like to read what PAD writes, even if I don’t agree with what he writes. (Is that some bizarre form of literary schadenfreude?)
Rock on, Peter! I’ll continue to be the Stein to your Franken whenever I get the chance, and I’ll only use the Caps Lock key for proper nouns and sentence starters. 🙂
Got an idea for a WildCards posts, but wanna collect my thoughts and ideas first before I present it…
Screw it, here it is:
Who would you cast for what parts in a Wild Cards movie?
Jay Ackroyd: Dan Ackroyd keeps popping into my head for a 2003-ish Jay.
Hmmmm…this is gonna be a tough one to cast actually…
Bladestar: “Although with Dr. Tachyon off on Takis and Dr. Finn, Medicine Centaur (make a great TV show) gone too, I wonder just who’s watching that urn and just how effective Demise’s regenrative powers are…”
We don’t know that Finn is still gone. It was hinted at the end of Book XV that he’d be flown back to Earth from Takis with relative speed.
While Demise is cool, I don’t have a huge problem with leaving him dead. His death in Book VI had a lot of impact — plus, he’s still “alive” in flashbacks!
“Did love the climax of the Jumper-arc when they launched the assualt on the island, some great stuff to just visualize in that one.”
I agree … that was probably the most straight-ahead action-comic-booky of any of the novels. Lots of superfolk in costumes just duking it out hardcore. I wouldn’t want every book in the series to be like that, but it did work that time. I particularly loved how the Turtle cut loose so often in that one (like when he kicked Modular Man’s ášš!).
“That was part of what helped make WC so strong, when an author used another’s character, they had to get approval on everything the character did or said in their stories…”
True, although I didn’t think that *always* worked. For example, nobody ever seemed to get Jay Ackroyd right except for George Martin.
“Like to see Joss Whedon’s take on a Wild Cards novel… or Spider Robinson…”
Or Peter David!
“You’d think they’d need another outbreak to keep enough infected characters around by 2003-2004 considering the rate they been killing alot of them off…”
Nah, don’t you remember? They established that the wild card gene was recessive, and able to be passed on. There will always be new people being born with the virus. They also discussed in Book XIV that there was an exponentional growth curve, and that as time went on there’d be more and more born with it.
“Maybe that’s the Wild Cards-Universe version of 9/11, al Qaeda or maybe some Joker’s rights Terrorist group gets áhøld of a bunch of active spores and releases them into the jet stream or in a WTC-type bombing….”
I doubt they’d muck with 9/11 … still too fresh in people’s minds. If it’s mentioned in the next book, it’ll be — I’m guessing — discussed as if it happened the same way there as it did here.
But then again, maybe not. The authors always enjoyed throwing twists into “real world” expectations. (In Deuces Down they tell how the moon landing in the Wild Cards world was very different from the one that happened in our world.)
Deano: “I am so geeking over the WILDCARDS talk.”
So am I!
“I forgot about Fortunato too.Wow!!
Puppetman,and Blaise (Tachyon ‘s grandson) had to be two of the more sinister bad guys in the series.”
Ti Malice was a cool villain as well, I thought.
“It would be nice to see a revamp or attempt to launch an ongoing series with the characters.Carnifex,Goldenboy,Yeoman,Mark Meadows,
Black Shadow…im getting all misty”
It’d be interesting to see them try it in comic book form. George R R Martin is so big now, and they even did a comic book adaptation of another of his old works (Hedge Knight). Wild Cards would be an interesting thing to attempt as a comic (they tried it with an Epic series back in 1990, I think … that was terrible, in my opinion).
Patrick Wynne:
“I said this to the guy at my local comic store at the time Deuces Down (which I still haven’t read) came out: they made a big mistake making it hardcover and focusing on little known and new characters.”
Agreed, and also another problem was making it so slender — 7 very short stories does not a Wild Cards book make. At least, it never used to!
“Since the series had been out of the public eye for several years by that point, they really needed to concentrate on the popular characters (and maybe even do another mosaic novel) to catch everyone’s attention again.”
I think it also should have been more accessible. I guess you haven’t read it yet, but if you did you’d see that it really doesn’t re-introduce the concept very well. It’s like they expect readers to already be familiar with it. I happened to be because I had just re-read the series, but if I hadn’t … eek. They really should have taken a lesson from the way a new #1 of a comic series works (such as PAD’s relaunched Captain Marvel #1) … give it a sense of a re-launch. As it was, I can’t imagine Deuces Down pulling in any new fans of the Wild Cards universe.
“But definitely I think the hardcover hurt. I know that’s why I didn’t buy it!”
Absolutely. The whole marketing of the W.C. relaunch was botched, in my opinion. When they did the new reissues of the old books, they did these huge jumbo-sized, jumbo-cost editions that were entirely overpriced. I think they were trying to imitate the look of Martin’s “Fire and Ice” books, which are all huge 900-page affairs. But a cooler idea, if they’d wanted to go the jumbo route, would have been to package two or three books into one huge novel and sell ’em that way. More value for the money.
“Jason, I too have thought about creating a WC website. I was thinking maybe a Wiki or something. That’d be cool. I started taking notes to do so, but got so into rereading the series that I stopped annotating and just enjoyed it. :)”
That’s EXACTLY what happened to me!
Jason
“Man, now I’m gonna have to reread the series again.”
If you think you might create a site, let me know. I can e-mail you a couple of excel documents I made. It wasn’t much: the main thing I did was put all the stories in a chronological order (since several books jump around a lot). It’s all sort of rough (haven’t double-checked some of the work yet), but I’d be happy to share it!
Bladestar: “Who would you cast for what parts in a Wild Cards movie?”
Unknowns. All unknowns. Spend the money on CGI for Jokertown! (Digression: The only thing I liked about Star Wars: Attack of the Clones was the scene with the big lizard-guy in the diner. I instantly thought, “That guy’s a joker!”)
Jason
Hmmm….I will have to ponder the WILDCARDS casting call,i like Ocean Doot’s idea of unknowns though i think some lesser known stars may be better.Im not sure of the actors’ name but the star of the show Touching Evil has the face i kind of picture for Billy ray /Carnifex.
Alexis Denisof as Mark Meadows
Dennis Haysbert as Black Eagle
Seth Green as Dr Tachyon
J.August Richards as Black shadow
Just off the top off my head thats who comes to mind.I would not want to see it a big “star” vehicle,would rather see good solid acting and
a good script.
It’s been a few years since I last read “Wild Cards” (I think economics forced me to stop around #5), but I must disagree with Deano’s casting on one point.
Mark Meadows is quite clearly American. Also, while Denisof is okay at playing slightly spacy characters, I don’t think he could carry off a stoner that well for that long.
Instead, for Cap’n Trips, I nominate Keanu Reeves!
“Mark Meadows is quite clearly American.”
So is Alexis Denisof. 🙂
“Instead, for Cap’n Trips, I nominate Keanu Reeves!”
Good god, no.
Keanu as Mark Meadows?”whoah”(sorry that seems to
be the one line of Keanu’s i always know)
“Good God ,No”I agree completely.My point being no “big”name stars,Affleck as Daredevil already ruined one of my favorite characters and Joel Schumacher did the same to Batman.In fact I got issues with Mr.Reeves as Constantine.(I would have preferred someone like Ewan McGregor).Not bashing Keanu i liked him as Johhny Utah,the redneck abusive husband in the gift,and as Bill Or was he Ted??Anyways I saw Meadows as eccentric like Jeff Goldblum in the Fly,or Harold Ramis(Egon) in the Ghostbusters not someone from “Dude Where’s my Car?”(i couldnt take more than five minutes of that one).Besides its my version of the movie …so there:)
To Marc Grant:
Hi! Thanks for the kind words. Please do stop by when you return to town. I agree with you on Golden. So far he’s come up with some of the better viuable ideas. Whether or not he’s able to see them to fruition (assuming he wins), will depend on if he can break the old cycle of “good ole’ boy” politics that’s run this place ever since Robert Steen passed away while in office. Susan Thompson tried to do this, but one day the club knocked on her door, went in and sat down, and proceeded to tell her how things were going to be done. From that day forward she was largely irrelevant and ineffective. I think Golden stands half a chance or better of turning things upside down at city hall.
To Jeff Lawson: Please come and introduce yourself next time you’re in the store!
Oops, the dreaded high-speed typist strikes again! That’s “viable”, not “viuable” or whatever the heck I wrote up there!
“Seth Green as Dr Tachyon”
Too masculine. I’d want to see someone who seemed more effeminate, since Tachyon is often described that way. (I think they say in Book I that the first soldiers to encounter him thought he was a woman for a moment.)
And Keanu as Trips … no no no! Too handsome, for one thing! Trips is supposed to be tall and gangly. I’m not familiar with Alexis Denisof, but … definitely not Keanu! 🙂
Jason
Seth Green too Masculine????Thats kinda funny in a way,but i get what you mean Tachy was kinda femme.Keanu would be all wrong.Denisof played Wesley on the Buffy/Angel shows but he may be too
good looking also.Ultimately its fun to speculate
and wonder who looks like a certain character inside each others heads.
“Seth Green too Masculine????Thats kinda funny in a way,but i get what you mean”
Yeah, you know what I’m sayin’. I know, Seth Green isn’t exactly the Terminator, but it strikes me that you’d need someone with about as much masculinity as Jaye Davidson for Tachy.
Maybe Seth could be Blaise … ? 🙂
Jason
Just popping in again after last week. Couldn’t pass this one up, shroud or no shroud. Looong post to follow. Apologies for hijacking the Wild Cards thread.
Dee: “Just because I dont bash presidents Im the bad person???”
Dee, I think there’s other things you’ve done in your posts that are leading people to think you’re a bad person. Possibly involving swearing and ethnic slurs and the like.
Also, Mr. David has already been proven partially correct in his prediction: the GOP may not yet have started exploiting Mr. Reagan’s memory, but other conservative groups have:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=2043&e=15&u=/ap/20040616/ap_on_el_pr/campaign_ad_reagan
Apparently, the group in question, the Club for Growth, hasn’t even bothered to get Mrs. Reagan’s permission for the use of Mr. Reagan’s likeness.
Further, while the Bush administration publicly stated on Saturday that they wouldn’t exploit the Reagn legacy in the upcoming election, it certainly seemed to me that the eulogy Bush himself delivered at Friday’s funeral service in Washington was leaning in that direction, full of the same empty rhetoric and self-serving, bullying patriotism he’s been peddling since 9/11. Very distasteful. (His father, by contrast, delivered a eulogy which was both warm and moving. Really served to underline what a schnook and what a poor president George W. Bush can be.)
And Dee, if you’re still reading this, (as you seem to be), before you start spewing at me (I’m not a Jew, by the way, so you’ll have to think of something else to call me), Alzheimer’s is a horrible way to go, and I did feel bad for both Reagan and his family. But that doesn’t change the fact (or if you must, my opinion) that Reagan, and his administration did some damage to this country, not the least of which was creating the modern conservative movement which gave rise to George W. Bush, and to the current political climate, where anyone who doesn’t buy into Bush’s rhetoric and values is labelled an anti-American or a terrorist. Not that anyone here has done that. (And to be fair, this has in turn led to some nastiness on the liberal side of the fence.)
Oddly enough, I was reading through a collection of Garrison Keillor essays today and came across this bit on Reagan, circa 1988, reflecting on the then-upcoming presidential election. (It’s a long quote, but a good one, I think, and appropriate in more ways than one to our current political climate, so bear with me a moment here.)
Keillor:
“The line between entertainment and news has been blurred most successfully by President Reagan. Better than any rival, he has been able to describe the world as he wanted to see it – a description independent of any object truth – and do it so willingly that his stories seemed almost real. His talent has been to live entirely in the present, one show at a time, and he has revealed no important regrets, no compelling dreams, no history that disturbs him. Clearly, his job has not been to run the government but to be himself, an entertainer: warm, solicitous, upbeat, manly, full of cheerful news – a good uncle. Like Warren Harding, he is hated by nobody. He is humble, genuinely amiable, and gracious, and is serious about the business of ceremony, and prepares himself studiously for every public appearance, executing the royal duties of his office with ease and charm . . . As he prepares to retire, he leaves his opponents feeling tired and thoughtful. He has enlarged his office, yet diminished politics by his success, sapping our most fundamental strength, our ability as a democratic society to discuss and resolve our problems . . .
. . . Walking in the dark that evening along a Grover’s Mill road that wound past old farms and blocks of lighted houses, the air smelling of apples and wood smoke, I felt how vulnerable this good life is and what is at stake as the voters vote. All Mr. Reagan’s artistry cannot change the world, which remains real: real lakes and forests are dying, the ozone is actual, genuine garbage floats on an authentic ocean. The world is not the sum total of our impressions of it, and it cannot be charmed by political entertainment. Nor can the economy, drunk on debt, be sung into sobriety. Debt is an objective, measurable fact, as the Republican Party used to point out, but this year talk about the real world has been rare. The voters who walk into the booth on Tuesday will find it unlit, as pitch-black as a radio show.”
The Grover’s Mill reference refers to the fiftieth anniversary celebration of the old War of the World’s radio broadcast – part of the essay is about the panicked fear that it inspired, which Keillor likens to the spiteful, manipulative tactics involved in the 88 election. (Willie Horton, anyone?) It seems to me, Dee, that there’s even more of this kind of thing now, except that we no longer have even the thin solace of “Mr. Reagan’s artistry,” and are instead left with the bullying fear-mongering of Bush and Chaney.
Dee, did you notice how, a few days after that Ashcroft report about the possibility of upcoming terrorist attacks, new anti-Kerry ads popped up which accused him of hamstringing government attempts to prevent terrorist actions? Did you see Bush’s exasperated response to the European journalists last week when one reporter had the audacity to ask Bush about whether or not U.S. laws allow the kind of torture which took place in Abu Ghraib? The way Bush responded to that question by saying they should all be grateful we have laws in America, without bothering to answer whether or not those laws allow people to be tortured? Did you hear the news today that the 9-11 Commission has reported that there were no credible links between Iraq and al Qaida, demonstrating yet again that there was no basis for Bush’s original justification for the Iraq War?
I don’t know, maybe you didn’t, maybe you don’t believe it, maybe you don’t care. I don’t know. It does seem to me, however, that Mr. David, and others voicing similar thoughts on this blog, have reason for concern. And given that the GOP has for the past decade or two put forth Mr. Reagan as a living symbol of their party, has already made use of him, so to speak, those people like Mr. David who disagree with that political party should have every right to say a few unkind words about the man. (For the love of Pete, Dee, he was a president, not an emperor or a god-king. He was just a man who did some good and did some bad.)
Further, these same people should have the right to express themselves (on Mr. David’s personal website) without a belligerent, cussing racist popping up and attacking them – you’re not forced to read these posting, and given the way that the Reagan death and funeral was covered in the media last week, there are plenty of other places you can go to find some kind words about the man.
I’d also point out that a person who barges into an internet conversation on a private website, accuses someone of “being able to dish it out, but not being able to take it” (a taunt which I think really should have been left behind in third grade recess, don’t you think?), but hides behind multiple aliases and doesn’t have the courage to type in their real email address, is being more than just a little hypocritical.
Finally, I’d also point out that calling Mr. David a “fat fûçkìņg jew” is probably not going to get him to change his opinion of Reagan (which wasn’t even voiced in the original blog entry, by the way), of you, or of your politics. It might even lead some people to think that you’re a bad person. I could be wrong about this, but I don’t think that I am.
Ooh, this was a long one, wasn’t it? Kind of rambling and without a consistant point too. Sorry, folks. I’ll return you to your Wild Cards discussion.
And Dee, good luck with your boycott, as I think you’ll need it.
Warmest regards,
Stew
Stew,
Did you ever think that if you were determined to “violate the Shroud”, you might have done it on a thread other than the one PROPOSING the Shroud?
And to constantly address the Shrouded One directly does nothing but encourage future diatribes by her, which I find almost as offensive as when people describe her as a conservative and/or Republican, when all she really is is an angry, arrogant, hateful insane áššhølë. It would be as if Democrats were labeled not as “Michael Moore-types” but compared instead to Charles Manson or Jeffry Dahmer if they were registered Democrats.
The fact that so many are eager to label the Shrouded One with a “conservative” or “Republican” label betrays their own feelings on those who choose to describes themselves as such – i.e. that those who describe themselves as such are to SOME degree angry, hateful and intolerant – and revelas a lot more about themselves than those of whom they speak.
So what, really, was the POINT of your incoherent rant?
It seems you sought to violate the SHROUDING against the express wishes of the host of this blog, in order to:
a.) “Defend” PAD
b.) Vent your spleen about the republican party on a variety of topics, ranging from Reagan’s “exploitation” to Dubya to Willie Horton.
Why didn’t you just bring up Herbert Hoover while you were at it?
However, you can tell you simply wished to rant from the simple fact that
A.) PAD doesn’t need defending regarding saying “a few unkind words about” Reagan following his death, because, if you actually read the posts here BEFORE starting to spew your whiny bûllšhìŧ, you would see that PAD HAS NOT SAID ONE UNKIND WORD ABOUT REAGAN SINCE HIS DEATH.
B.)In regard to your “everything but the kitchen sink”, totally inconsistent-and-without-a-main-point rantings about the Republican party…well, your stating that it was a FACT that Reagan harmed the nation before allowing that if you MUST, you would call it an opinion, says it all right there. I mean, who could argue with a fact..which your statement most definitely was NOT!
But just to respond to some of what you said:
1.) Willie Horton was originally brought up by Al Gore in the democratic primaries against Dukakis in 1988. This is almost always forgotten. I guess it’s too inconvenient for some people.
2.) The recent conservative movement did not START with Reagan. It started with Barry Goldwater in 1964. And LBJ, despite almost certain victory, unleashed a TV ad back then pretty much saying that Goldwater would get us into a nuclear holocaust, complete with nuclear explosion onscreen.
Politics ain’t beanbag.
And anything in Kerry’s voting record is fair game. ESPECIALLY since he has made his military experience a central part of his campaign and since that’s precisely WHY he won the primaries. You can’t claim and emphasize something as a strength and then bìŧçh when someone dares argue that it might not be. Well, you can, but it doesn’t give you much credibility.
And at this point, I would be “exasperated” with continued questions about the Iraq prisoner “scandal”, especially from European reporters.
Heck, if I was resident, I’d reply, “You know, i thought you were journalists and covered “news”. This story is over a month old. I don’t know how much more mileage you expect to get out of it. But I refuse to let you continue to slander the heroic and noble actions of hundreds of thousands of our servicemen and servicewomen based on the actions of seven people. Not. Gonna. Do it. You know, I’d really like to see you have the same ‘concern” for the innocent Iraqis who failed to receive food and medicine due to the kickbacks received by the French government as you do for Iraqi POW’s. Or does trying to make the U.S. look bad sell more papers than shedding light on the biggest, most disgusting scandal in U.N. history?”
Finally, why, even in jest, would you wis the Shrouded One luck on her boycott? What’s the purpose?
Of course, I could ask that about your whole rambling rant.
As far as “violating the shroud”, the shroud idea was a suggestion, not a command. PAD’s opening post was very well-worded: “I invite others to follow my lead or not, as they see fit.”
Instead of responding to childishness with more childishness, PAD chooses to spend his time and effort responding to people who say things worth responding to. I think that’s a sensible and reasonable policy, and that Peter is setting a good example of maturity for us. None of us has unlimited time, so unless one enjoys talking with someone why waste the time?
PAD also is respectful of others in that he has made a suggestion but has left it up to each person to decide whether (and to what extent) to follow that suggestion.
Personally, I think that people who post at length about how worthless someone’s posts are, and how they’re ignoring that person, etc., are behaving somewhat paradoxically. (As soon as you say you’re ignoring someone, it seems to me you’re not ignoring them.)
But that’s okay. There’s no law that says everyone must shroud, or shroud 100%, or shroud in a precise manner according to formal rules of shrouding. It’s the principle — let’s not let one person behaving badly lead the rest of us into similar behavior — that counts, and while different people here have different ways of living up to that I think we’re on the whole doing pretty well.
Stew chose to respond to some points that were made. In doing so, he was able to read past some of the more annoying things in the post he was responding to and respond instead to some of its substance. He did so in a polite way which I would like to think the person he was responding to might someday learn and perhaps even someday be capable of emulating. I think that honors the spirit of Peter’s request nicely.
As has been proven, the “shrouding” of an idiot is an excercise in futility.
What idiot? I really have no idea what you’re talking about…
Jerome,
Hope you don’t mind me responding to you.
You’re probably correct in your accusations about me venting a bit o’ spleen in that last post, though I think I tried to do so in a relatively restrained manner, and I did so primarily in an attempt to point out to Dee that some people (self included, obviously) have some gripes with the GOP and the current administration which have at least a bit of grounding in reality. I also thought it might be productive to have something closer to a conversation on the subject that has so angered Dee. If this was misguided, or in the wrong thread, or if I did so in too long-winded, too rambling a manner, and if that offended you, I apologize.
And I as soon as I hit post, I realized that yes, I had made this mistake: “The recent conservative movement did not START with Reagan.” Still, he did have something to do with popularizing it, at least the GOP seems to think so, given how they invoke his name every national convention. Apologies for that as well.
Mr. David bashing Reagan – I don’t think I said he had actualy done that. (As a matter of fact, I explicitly noted that his orignal post on the subject did not, and that Dee’s rants were kinda groundless as a result.) Instead, I said he has the RIGHT to do that, something Dee disagrees with. This is one of the reasons I felt Dee was worth replying to. There are a lot of people in this country who feel that it’s irresponsible and unpatriotic to criticize a president, past or present. I think that’s a dangerous belief. Here’s a Teddy Roosevelt quote, which expresses the thought more eloquently than I could:
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.”
Kerry’s voting record – sure, it’s fair game. It was the timing of the ad which seemed exploitive to me – it seemed designed specifically to play upon one the the nation’s fears. (And no, I’m not saying it’s not a legitimate fear – for all I know, and despite doubt cast on it by some members of government, Ashcroft’s warning in May was a real one.)
“The fact that so many are eager to label the Shrouded One with a “conservative” or “Republican” label betrays their own feelings on those who choose to describes themselves as such – i.e. that those who describe themselves as such are to SOME degree angry, hateful and intolerant – and revelas a lot more about themselves than those of whom they speak.”
I don’t think I labelled Dee “conservative” or “Republican.” I did refer to her as belligerant and racist, but that was based on her posts, which were consistent in that regard.
Also, if you re-read my post, you’ll also see that I made precisely the same point – there’s a lot of nastiness on both sides of the fence these days. (It does still seem to me, however, that the Republicans set the bar, particularly in the vitriol of their attacks (sometimes legit, sometimes not) on “Slick Willy.”) In fact, this is the other reason why Dee’s posts have bothered me so much, and why I wanted to try and raise the level of discussion from shouting vs. ignoring. As Nova Land has pointed out, the Shroud thing was an invitation, not a command, and while I think it’s an effective response to someone like Dee, (and probably the most appropriate one from those in charge of the blog), I dunno, it kind of saddens me, it plays into that same huge divide between liberals and conservatives which has split the nation these past few years. I thought it might be nice to try a different approach to hatred – engage it in (admittedly a slightly snarky) conversation, rather than simply ignore it. Apparently, from your response, that was either a misguided response, or I’ve failed in that attempt. Again, sorry.
“But I refuse to let you continue to slander the heroic and noble actions of hundreds of thousands of our servicemen and servicewomen based on the actions of seven people. Not. Gonna. Do it. You know, I’d really like to see you have the same ‘concern” for the innocent Iraqis who failed to receive food and medicine due to the kickbacks received by the French government as you do for Iraqi POW’s. Or does trying to make the U.S. look bad sell more papers than shedding light on the biggest, most disgusting scandal in U.N. history?”
Um, where did this come from? When and where did I slander the servicemen and women in Iraq? I pointed to the prison scandal, and the administrations slippery response to it, (y’know, the whole “They’re not true P.O.W.’s, so they’re not covered by the Geneva Convention” thing, the thing where the administration seems more concerned with the letter of international law than the spirit and the purpose of it). Weren’t you horrified by these images? Didn’t they give you some pause? I also think it’s still a legit news story, (I’ll bet a lot of people in Iraq and the Middle East still think it’s legit too). Aren’t you curious as to whether or not your government feels it’s okay to torture people? (And what does the “story is over a month old” have to do with whether or not it’s legitimate news? Come on, that’s just being silly.)
Look, from everything I’ve seen, heard and read, Bush misled the nation in order to take us to war, and his motivations seem murky and possibly illegitimate. (The dealings with Haliburton, the whole “only those countries which supported the war get to invest in Iraq” thing, again, very disturbing.)
DESPITE that, however, I believe that there will be some good that will come from this, especially for the Iraqi people. From the news reports, that hasn’t taken hold yet, and things are pretty bad over there, but I still hold onto the hope that, say, ten years from now, things will be much better for Iraqis as a result of the war. And it seems to me that the people who will be largely responsible for that are the men and women of the armed forces who are in Iraq right now. Honestly, it’s a liberal cliche, but I support the troops. I think the majority of them are doing good work over there. It’s nation building our troops are engaged in, and that’s a noble cause. So you don’t have to say that your “Not. Gonna.” let me slander the troops, because I never did.
Jerome, I’m sorry if I offended you with the inadequacy of my response to Dee’s post, I’m sorry if I offended you by even responding to it, and I’m sorry if I offended you with the things you thought I said, or which my post might have implied. I’m sorry for trying to engage in a dialogue with an angry, angry person (Dee, not you). Fair enough? (I may not be a Democrat, but you can tell I’m a liberal, because I say “sorry” a lot 🙂
And Nova Land, thank you for picking up on what I was trying, ineptly, to do.
I will henceforth abide by Mr. David’s suggestion. Shrouding . . . now!
So… how’d the whole Jumper thing work out in Wild Cards? I stopped reading the series partway through that sequence. And what happened to Dr. Tachyon?
If memory serves, Tachyon’s situation can be found in … Book 11? All by Melissa Snodgrass. Since you don’t know, I won’t say. (although I think I mentioned it earlier) But he ain’t dead, I will say that much.
Jumper situation was resolved in Book 10 or 12 I believe. Unless it didn’t get resolved till 13-15 in the “Black Trump” trilogy… Won’t say the end result as I don’t want to spoil it. ( I do remember the end result, but not the details of when exactly they did it…)
Bladestar,
I’m probably not going to pick up the series again, so feel free to spoil away. Thanks.
Stew
Ok, here goes:
Tachyon is back on Takis. Blaise became a jumper and receutied a few to help him by getting a young female jumper to put Tachyon’s mind in the girl’s body and then proceeded to abuse, torture, rape, and ultimately impregnate Tachyon. From there the action moved to Takis (Jay Ackroyd and another went along for the trip)(Jay came home with a wife out of the deal). Tachyon gave birth and through a bit of good old fashioned bofy jumping in to the wrong body by Blaise, Blaise is now in a body operating a space shift for the Trade Federation (I think that was their name) to pay off a debt that belonged to the body of Tachyon’s brother or cousin.
The good D. decided to remain on Takis and try to fix the shambles his “House” was in thanks to Blaise’s shenanigans. Nothing much further has been heard on this yet.
The Jumpers were mostly wiped out in the attack on H. Bosch’s “citadel” and ultimately, the lawyer (St. John, or Syngeon, something like that) who created Jumpers was killed but I cannot recall by who, too long since I read the books to remember that detail.
Bladestar, thank you much.
Stew
“The Jumpers were mostly wiped out in the attack on H. Bosch’s “citadel” and ultimately, the lawyer (St. John, or Syngeon, something like that) who created Jumpers was killed but I cannot recall by who, too long since I read the books to remember that detail.”
Mr. Nobody, also known as Jerry Strauss aka The Projectionist aka the Giant Ape, did the dirty deed. Turned his finger into a drill, as I recall, and scrambled St. John (Loophole)’s brains.
Bladestar, your memory does not fail you: There were some jumpers left over in the “Black Trump” trilogy. They were all working covertly for the government (for the Card Sharks). I believe they were ultimately polished off by Black Shadow.
Good times, good times …
Hey, Stew: Where in Wisconsin are you?
Jason
Stew,
No, I don’t mind your replying to me. In fact, I’m quite glad you did. I realize I was quite short with you. I’m sorry for that.
You actually seem like a decent guy. I just had a short fuse because I really found the Shrouded One offensive, and I have had to personally deal with narrow-minded fools of both sides of the political spectrum this week, and it gets so frustrating to deal with people ful of hate.
So between your talking to the Shrouded One as if she was a conservative (sorry, but that’s the way I read it) and then to blame the “polarization” we supposedly have today on the Republicans, and then bring up tired references to Willie horton and the like to boot, well, yeah, that bugged me.
And, sorry again, but I think the media are beating the prison “scandal” to death. The Husseins used to burn their own athletes with cigarettes if they didn’t perform well. Which do YOU think is worse? And compared to what someone like McCain went through, well, sorry, but it’s hard for me to “cringe” at what has been reveled so far, though I am disappointed.
But again, you were polite and somewhat reasoned, and I’m sorry I went off on you with quite that much heat. I usually prefer to shed light:)
Take Care.
“And, sorry again, but I think the media are beating the prison “scandal” to death. The Husseins used to burn their own athletes with cigarettes if they didn’t perform well. Which do YOU think is worse? And compared to what someone like McCain went through, well, sorry, but it’s hard for me to “cringe” at what has been reveled so far, though I am disappointed.”
But Jerome, you miss the point. It’s not that the other guys were worse (they were, but that’s beside the point). It’s that we’re supposed to be BETTER than that! We’re not supposed to torture, torment, or beat the crap out of people we have in custody, because we’re the good guys!
If we start indulging in certain activites because somebody else was even worse, we’re lowering ourselves to that level. Do you want our country to be in the same ethical slime-pit as Saddam’s former government? Or do you want us to remain what we once were – a shining example to the rest of the world, that your country can remain free without having to treat its enemies like rabid animals?
For more on the subject, go ask Joe Biden – he seemed rather clear when he was on the news earlier this week…