People are comparing Steve Irwin’s carrying his month-old son tucked under one arm while feeding meat to a croc (Crikey!) to Michael Jackson’s dangling his son over a balcony.
There is no comparison. To Irwin, it’s the equivalent of “Take your child to work” day. He’s so confident that nothing could go wrong that he perceives no danger.
Except these are wild animals we’re talking about, something *could* go wrong, and he shouldn’t do it again because it’s just plain asking for trouble.
Michael Jackson, on the other hand, was just plain nuts. Bringing your month old baby along to your work environment, albeit a hazardous one, is simply not the same as dangling your infant over a three story drop just for laughs, and I’m still furious that the German police didn’t arrest him.
Jackson remains a frustration for me. I’ve always been a major proponent in separating the person from the art. I’m the first one to say that you shouldn’t allow personal antipathy to color your enjoyment of the work. But Jackson’s personal life, from his creepy facial metamorphosis to his horrific risk of that infant, has made it so I can’t even watch his older stuff which I used to enjoy a hëll of a lot. That bugs me, because I want to be able to hold true to the philosophies I espouse. But in his case, I really, really can’t.
PAD
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It is a bit galling to see this outpouring of reverence over the passing of a guy whose death is the result of routine reckless behavior,
Out of curiosity, how many years of experience do you have with wild animals? If you’ve been handling crocs for over 30 years, then I beg your pardon, you are the authority. If not, however, you may want to consider that maybe, just maybe, the man had a better idea of what was actually reckless than the average television viewer.
And maybe, just maybe, the average person who insists on demeaning the man’s life’s work as “poking animals with sticks” is either ignoring or simply ignorant of his achievements in wildlife education and conservation.
He loved nature and met it on its own terms without flinching. Was there risk in working that closely with animals? Yes. But ALL life is risk. The dice rolled against him this time. Was he a great man? Not for me to decide. But by most accounts he was a good and genuine man, and he’ll be missed by his family and others.
-Rex Hondo-
Matt, I’ve actually never been a fan of Steve Irwin. I knew very little about him until I read of his death, at which point I decided to do some research about the man’s life. He was more than just the sum total of some “foolish stunts,” and it’s a bit crass to try to reduce him to that.
Moreover, it’s not as though he was a drug user or a drunk driver. He was very well trained and thoroughly skilled in the handling of dangerous beasts, and his “stunts” were aimed at getting people’s attention so he could educate them.
As far as the wisdom of swimming over a stingray, they are not known to be aggressive. Most people who are stung suffer this as the result of accidentally stepping on them in shallow water. Their venom is typically not fatal. This really appears to be a freak occurrence.
As I said, I was not a fan of Steve Irwin’s and knew him only by reputation. Nevertheless, I see no reason to be glib about his death.
At the very least, whatever anybody may think about the man, it’s a bit crass to start pìššìņg on the man’s grave before he’s even in it.
-Rex Hondo-
It doesn’t take a genius to realize you don’t swim on top of one, but this guy made a career of foolish stunts like that.
Not in hindsight but I’ve been around stingrays and seen dozens of scenes about them in videos and I’ve never seen them attack someone this way–usually people who are stung have stepped on them.
As far as irwin’s recklessness…there’s some truth to that but it’s the only way to get people to watch. How much danger he was ever actually in is a matter of conjecture–I wouldn’t pick up an Autrailian snake for a million dollars but he seemed to have a good idea of how far he could take it (Or he had an assistant with a syringe full of anti-venom just off-screen). I wouldn’t have considered swimming over a sting ray to be all that dangerous a thing to do (which may explain why MENSA never returns my calls).
It is a bit galling to see this outpouring of reverence over the passing of a guy whose death is the result of routine reckless behavior, when there are so many other people who could have done nothing to prevent their deaths, yet go unmourned.
What’s hard to understand? He brought joy to people’s lives. They will miss him.
And if anyone anywhere truly goes “unmourned” they must have done something wrong.
BTW, I echo what PAD said–nothing Luigi has done in the past would make me think that he was being deliberately mean spirited, but his initial post did come off worse than I’m sure he meant it to.
Luigi, I usually enjoy reading your posts, but I dont agree with your opinion, and really see you kinda coming off as being an prìçk about this.
It is a bit galling to see this outpouring of reverence over the passing of a guy whose death is the result of routine reckless behavior, when there are so many other people who could have done nothing to prevent their deaths, yet go unmourned.
Even if we take the above as a given, and it’s clear that many don’t, there’s a question of appropriate times or venues. I agree with you that a mass outpouring of love from all points online can be a bit much … but Luigi went and posted before the corpse was even cold, at least metaphorically.
Peter’s second point is well taken. It’s not as though Peter himself had started a thread here and Luigi came in to be a dissenting voice — that I’d completely understand and even support, even if I disagreed. Luigi went and dug up a thread from two and a half years ago specifically to make this point … which is, at best, tacky.
As an example involving something far smaller — as many of you know (Luigi for certain), I made a bet with Jerome Maida not long after the ’04 election, the specifics of which aren’t relevant for this thread. The bet ran until June 30 of this year.
Had Jerome gone back to the original thread at 12:01 July 1 and said, “ha ha — pay up, mofo”, that would have approximated the level of crassness I’m seeing here. He didn’t — he waited until there was a political thread that he saw I was participating in, THEN jumped in and reminded me.
(Speaking of which … Jerome, I have since made the donation, now that we’re into my credit card’s next billing cycle. 🙂 I’ve saved the receipt as a PDF and can e-mail it to you if you’d like proof.)
I don’t think most people here are suggesting that Steve Irwin was a perfect human being — as with all of us, there are some ways in which he was a terrific role model and some ways in which he was a lousy one. There is plenty of time to dwell on both — but right after a freakish death is really not the best time, particularly not in this manner.
On the issue of “this was a dumb stunt” — how many of the people saying this are experienced scuba divers? I am, at least to a degree, and my dad is to a much larger degree — and both of us were very surprised to hear about this occurring. Stingrays mostly sense pressure changes, so it’s entirely possible that Irwin might not have touched it and set it on the attack anyway — but that doesn’t strike me as reckless, just really really unlucky.
And with that … off to print out a bunch of stuff for my students. (Classes start tomorrow — eek!)
TWL
This really appears to be a freak occurrence.
I think the figure is something less than 20 for the total number of people known worldwide to have been killed by stringrays in the last 150 years or so.
The fact that the venom can be fatal is moot in this case: the barbed tail, which can get to 10 inches long on some species of rays, has been compared to a bayonet.
So, it’s not a surprise that all three of the known Australian deaths to stringray strikes have been due to direct hits to the heart.
Very unlucky indeed.
I’ve never been a huge fan of Stever Irwin. I thought he was annoying at best and reckless at worse, but I don’t want to gloat over his death. You can argue whether he was reckless or simply very knowledgeable with a crew always off camera ready to intervene if things got out of hand all day long, but the truth is, his death was tragedy.
I’ll echo others in saying that Luigi’s initial post did come off as “pìššìņg on his grave.” Maybe he didn’t mean to come off that harsh, but that’s the way it looked.
Anyway, his death should be seen as an illustration that wild animals are just that and are very dangerous, even to “experts”. Freak accidents can happen and our sympathies should be with his families.
Okay, time for me to eat some humble pie.
I apologize if my initial post came across as heartless or crass, or self-satisfied. That was not my intent, but I have to take responsibility for not putting enough thought into the precise wording with which I wrote the post. It was mostly a reaction to hearing about the story and seeing what the cause of it was (at least what I read about the causes at the time), and I wrote it is as such, but given that it came on the heels of an innocent man’s death, I obviously should’ve included at least some qualifiers about the tragedy of him being cut down in the prime of life, as well as how bad I feel about his wife (who I heard today is still in shock) and his kids. I didn’t do that, and I’m sorry for disappointing those who know me fairly well from this blog.
Was I self-satisfied? Actually, the opposite. I was angry. Whenever I hear about some famous person dying young, be it Brandon Lee or River Phoenix, or whoever, I not only feel sad, but angry that it happened. In the case of someone like River Phoenix, who was a vegetarian but took drugs, I’m angry that people like him do such stupid things. But I should’ve either waited a bit before posting, or in lieu of that, tempered my language (and for that matter, my emotions) about the situations.
That said, let’s look at what I actually said in my initial post (putting aside now the insensitive manner in which I said it), and talk about that. This is what I said:
-Neither we nor Irwin are in “complete control” of such situations, since there is no such thing.
-What happened was not surprising.
And that’s it.
Irwin had a history of reckless behavior with respect to wild animals. Who cares if he was a conservationist, loved nature, or educated people? When I see people on Jáçkášš, I do so with contempt. But they at least they (I assume) put advisories at the top of the program for viewers to not try those stupid stunts themselves. Why, then, is it okay for Irwin to do his stunts? Was there a similar advisory with that feeding-the-croc-while-holding-the-baby stunt? Why act like this sort of thing is educational? Can’t he educate the public without this “gonzo” approach? By doing what he did, sticking his face just inches from that of dangerous snakes and other animals, he gave a FALSE picture of wildlife, one that was NOT the kind you’d give if you wanted to “educate” people. Why not observe animals in a more natural manner, rather than using these Heisenberg-violating stunts? You can find them all over the Discovery and Learning Channels. Is it because those programs aren’t centered around a human host, and Irwin preferred to make himself the star instead of the animals? I don’t know, but if so, it would not seem to be in the best spirit of education. I’m not going to lie, I hate the anti-intellectual, anti-education, anti-knowledge streak in our society. So when programs that are ostensibly supposed to be educational instead emphasize spectacle, it rankles me. It reduces knowledge and beauty of our world to the lowest common denominator.
I also, do not understand the problem with the fact that I posted on a two-and-a-half-year-old thread. I did this for two reasons:
1. Peter had not yet started a thread on Irwin, and I had no idea if he would.
2. The (at the time) reported/alleged reasons/causes of his death were DIRECTLY PERTINENT to this prior thread.
Because one of the points around which my exchanges with others were centered was Irwin’s stated notion of being “in complete control”, and discussions of what might happen in such circumstances in the future, the fact that such a tragic occurrence actually did end up happening made my comments perfectly suited as an addendum to this thread (again, if not in the way I phrased them). I intended my comments in the same way as the Historical Notes placed at the end of the various BID entries in Peter’s But I Digress collection.
Mind you, I know that this is your blog, Peter, so if you don’t want me to post on old threads I won’t. But I notice that many other decided to chime in, not merely to respond to what I said, but to comment on Irwin’s death itself. Just so we’re clear, do you wish us to cease doing so?
Rex Hondo (to Matt): Out of curiosity, how many years of experience do you have with wild animals? If you’ve been handling crocs for over 30 years, then I beg your pardon, you are the authority. If not, however, you may want to consider that maybe, just maybe, the man had a better idea of what was actually reckless than the average television viewer.
Luigi Novi: Just maybe, people like Matt and I weren’t relying on experience or authority, but on others who have it. According to Irwin’s friend and colleague John Stainton, who was on board Irwin’s boat the Croc One he Irwing too close to one of the animals, saying, “He came on top of the stingray and the stingray’s barb went up and into his chest and put a hole into his heart.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Irwin#Death) (To be fair, I’ve heard other sources say today that there is no evidence that Irwin did anything to provoke the ray, so we have a bit of he said/he said, at least for now.)
That said, let’s look at what I actually said in my initial post (putting aside now the insensitive manner in which I said it), and talk about that. This is what I said:
-Neither we nor Irwin are in “complete control” of such situations, since there is no such thing.
-What happened was not surprising.
And that’s it.
Well, actually, Luigi, that’s NOT it. You also said
Yep. Nothing can go wrong, folks.
And I think that exact sentence is the primary (though not sole) reasons so many people saw you as being insensitive about this. It smacks of sarcasm, of back-patting, and of the idea that Being Right is more important than someone’s life.
Therein lies the problem.
I also, do not understand the problem with the fact that I posted on a two-and-a-half-year-old thread. I did this for two reasons:
1. Peter had not yet started a thread on Irwin, and I had no idea if he would.
And the idea of waiting for a day or two did not occur to you? I’ve had plenty of things I’d like to comment on that don’t come up here. Guess what? I don’t comment on them here.
2. The (at the time) reported/alleged reasons/causes of his death were DIRECTLY PERTINENT to this prior thread.
No, not really. The prior thread was about him endangering his child by engaging in risky behavior close to crocodiles. Given that his children were nowhere nearby and crocs were not involved, this issue was not in fact “directly pertinent.” Peripherally relevant, absolutely — but not directly, and certainly not so directly that everybody has said “oh, yeah, that’s obvious” about your reasons for posting.
Primarily, though, I don’t think the issue is that you happened to comment in this particular thread. The primary issue, at least to me, was the manner and the timing of doing so. Seeing you jump in that quickly suggested that you had this thread in the back of your mind for two years, saying “okay, just wait ’til that Irwin guy kicks it, so I can remind everyone I was right.”
I have no doubt that said assessment is inaccurate — but that’s the image that was being projected.
TWL
“1. Peter had not yet started a thread on Irwin, and I had no idea if he would.”
I had no plans to. Know why? Because I was concerned it would start a divisive discussion exactly along the lines of this one, and I simply didn’t want to deal with it.
PAD
Luigi Novi: Just maybe, people like Matt and I weren’t relying on experience or authority, but on others who have it.
Besides, how much of an expert do you need to be to figure this one out? Isn’t “Don’t play with the wild animals” one of the first things they tell you when you go on a camping trip?
Tim Lynch: Well, actually, Luigi, that’s NOT it. You also said Yep. Nothing can go wrong, folks.
Luigi Novi: Perhaps if I included the qualifier “in essence”, you would’ve understood what I meant. That other portion you quoted was intended as part of the original point. (Boy, I’m batting 1000 these past few days when it comes to expressing myself, eh?)
Tim Lynch: And I think that exact sentence is the primary (though not sole) reasons so many people saw you as being insensitive about this. It smacks of sarcasm, of back-patting, and of the idea that Being Right is more important than someone’s life.
Luigi Novi: Nowhere is either of those things placed (or implied to be placed) on any sort of hierarchical scale. As I said, I could’ve said a few words of sensitivity regarding his death and the horrible loss suffered by his wife and two kids prior to making the more critical portion of my post, and have composed that more critical portion in a less insensitive manner. There is no reason why giving my regards on the former point must be seen as less important as on the latter (rather, the point is that I did not address these points in a compassionate manner, not that one is more important than the other). Moreover, the latter point was not that I was happy about being “right”, which I explained above.
Tim Lynch: And the idea of waiting for a day or two did not occur to you?
Luigi Novi: Obviously not. And I erred in not doing so (or in wording my post differently, as aforementioned).
Tim Lynch: No, not really. The prior thread was about him endangering his child by engaging in risky behavior close to crocodiles.
Luigi Novi: No, that was the incident that initially precipitated the thread. It is not what the entire thread was about, as it veered into hypotheticals and permutations related to that incident, as reading the thread reveals. The general topic was about overall recklessness and risk assessment with regards to oneself and one’s kids. Many people, for example, referenced Roy Horn and the tiger Monticore, nekouken opined that what Irwin did was no different than cooking in one’s kitchen while the kid was in the room, etc.
Or perhaps we simply disagree on what was the core topic of the discussion.
Tim Lynch: Primarily, though, I don’t think the issue is that you happened to comment in this particular thread. The primary issue, at least to me, was the manner and the timing of doing so.
Luigi Novi: Agreed.
Tim Lynch: Seeing you jump in that quickly suggested that you had this thread in the back of your mind for two years, saying “okay, just wait ’til that Irwin guy kicks it, so I can remind everyone I was right.” I have no doubt that said assessment is inaccurate — but that’s the image that was being projected.
Luigi Novi: LOL. Well, I’m glad to hear that, because no, I did not even have this thread in mind between its original run and Irwin’s death, nor did I even think that Irwin would end up dead so young—not because of a deliberate assessment of his behavior, but simply because of the automatic assumption one makes about famous people in their prime.
Peter David: I had no plans to. Know why? Because I was concerned it would start a divisive discussion exactly along the lines of this one, and I simply didn’t want to deal with it.
Luigi Novi: Well, that’s your call, Peter, but realistically, aren’t all threads on topics that entail one’s personal beliefs divisive? But again, I’m very sorry that wavelength was so “off” on this one.
As I understand things, sting rays often bury themselves under the sand, so a person may not know they’re swimming too close to one until it’s too late. I don’t know if it’s the case in this instance. I haven’t seen the recording of the incident, nor have very many people. It remains to be seen if that footage will become public.
I’m especially concerned about Irwin’s daughter. This apparently happened while he was recording a segment for HER new show. I hope she doesn’t blame herself for it.
Just maybe, people like Matt and I weren’t relying on experience or authority, but on others who have it.
Then I would suggest that, if you want to come off as anything more than smugly saying “I told you so,” you should cite some sources. But then, considering the fact that, until his untimely death, he still had his job, and charges weren’t pressed in any of his more high-profile “stunts,” perhaps the other actual experts think more highly of him than you want to think.
Besides, how much of an expert do you need to be to figure this one out?
Not much of one, when you’re talking entirely in retrospect. Hindsight, as they say, is 20/20.
It DOES, however, take an expert to work that closely with potentially dangerous animals and stay in one piece for as long as he did. Luck will carry a person only so far, and 30-something years is well beyond where any normal person’s luck would have given out.
-Rex Hondo-
*sigh* Before the shitstorm rages too much more, I’d just like to say that:
A) Speaking ill of the dead would seem to be a hot button for me, at least so soon after someone’s untimely demise.
B) It’s been a really rough month at work, so that may be expressing itself by my being a tad bit more confrontational than usual. I’m sorry if I come off as overly harsh. I shouldn’t vent my frustration with Nursing and Management on you guys.
-Rex Hondo-
Considering that it’s probably more likely to be strick by lightning on a clear, sunny day than it is to get a stingray bard to the heart, I’d say that Irwin’s death is hardly expected in this case. How do you prepare for something that’s happened only 20 times in the past 150 years? Each of us is more likely to die from our monitors exploding while we’re typing on PAD’s site than to get a stingray bard to the chest.
I feel sadness and loss at Irwin’s death. He was a great crusader for education and conservation concerning wild animals. He saved countless animals from death, and probably spared an even greater number of humans injury or death in the destruction of those animals. He brought wild animals to the world in a new light. And he did so long before he was TV’s crocodile hunter.
You might have ideas about how he went about things, but none of us here have 30 years of experience working with these animals. I’d be willing to bet that none of us here have even 1 year of experience working with any kind of wild animal. Any of us telling Irwin how to do his job would be like trying to tell Steven Hawking about quantum physics. Do I think it’s reckless to carry a 1 month old baby into a pen with a croc? Sure, if we’re talking about me doing it. But if you tell me it’s Steve Irwin doing it, that changes things, because he’d not do that if he didn’t feel it was safe. It’s old news, but that croc in question had been fed three times prior to the event, it was an old and slow croc, and one Irwin knew well.
A local radio station here in Chicago was pìššìņg on Irwin’s grave yesterday afternoon. It’s a show I’ve listened to on my drive home for over three years now. I turned them off, and I may never go back to them. I don’t really care what anyone’s personal feelings are regarding Irwin or his death, but I do think that people should at least have the decency to respect his death and keep their thoughts to themselves.
I wasn’t going to touch this thread again, but I have a final thought on this subject that I believe is worth sharing.
Death is the most emotionally charged of human experiences. Ironically, it sometimes divides us at a time when we need each other the most.
This discussion is becoming increasingly acrimonious. I don’t think that serves anyone’s interests.
It’s time to walk away from this thread, I think.
Oh, I know all of the rationalizations for not walking away, because I’ve used them myself so very often. After all, if someone has mischaracterized your views or feelings, why should you let them get away with it? If they have smugly declared rhetorical victory even though their arguments are clearly weaker and less logical, why should you let them continue to think they’ve won when they haven’t? If someone has insulted you, why shouldn’t you respond? If someone has said something outrageous or offensive, why wouldn’t you call him or her on it?
Because in the context of this particular thread, and the direction in which it is going, no good will come of continuing the argument. No resolution will be had.
If this were a political thread, I’d feel differently. But it’s not. It’s ultimately about death, and about people’s emotions at their most sensitive.
I know, I know, it’s not my blog and I can’t tell you what to do. I don’t think making a suggestion is out-of-bounds, though. And with that, I submit to you:
The wisest thing to do would be for all of us to walk away and let it go. That’s what I’m going to do.
Rex: B) It’s been a really rough month at work, so that may be expressing itself by my being a tad bit more confrontational than usual. I’m sorry if I come off as overly harsh. I shouldn’t vent my frustration with Nursing and Management on you guys.
Luigi Novi: Mea culpas all around, buddy. 🙂
It could have been worse he could have said this.
“I am GLAD this áššhølë is dead. Sorry for his wife and kids, but relieved they are in no further danger from his lunacy!” – John Byrne on the death of Steve Irwin.
I lived in Japan for a number of years, and while there, I frequently vacationed in Australia, up near the Great Barrier Reef.
While I was staying in a rather rustic Hotel, I heard thumping noise coming from the wall Air Conditioner. I tried turining in on/off several times, and then the unit stopped running. I told the manager about it the next morning, and he said he’d check it out. I went off on a tour, and when I returned, he took me over to a nearby picnic table and showed me a 3 foot snake with two slahes cut in its body–apparently it’d crawled in there and my turning the unit on/off had inadvertently killed it.
The manager, seeing my face go white lookd at me and said “Nothing to owrry about mate’….it was just a PYTHON….”
My point is it seems like the Austrailians that live in that part of the world KNOW that its dangerous–Jesus, you don’t do hiking near rivers, cuz’ there are Crocs; at the beach, you don’t go into the water at certain times of the year because its Box Jellyfish mating season….yet, rather than being introverted and cowering in fear, despite all the danger around them, they were some of the most outgoing, most friendly people I’d ever met in my life.
They have a zest for life that’s unmatched anywhere, yet they also have the common sense of the old joke “Doctor, it hurts when I do this” “Okay, so don’t DO that…”
I understood Steve Irwin a little better after that…yeah, he did take it to extremes, but there was no doubt that he LOVED his work.
I think he probably went out the way he would’ve wanted–doing what he loved…I’ll miss him.
And JOHN BYRNE is the áššhølë….