A note to our friends in other countries who have requested that this be broken up into individual threads for spoiler purposes: Sorry, guys. I sympathize, and that’s actually the way I used to do it. But there were times it seemed that every blog posting was TV discussions. So I decided to consolidate all the major ongoings I watch into one place. Hence the “round up.” I apologize if reading the thread in its entirety muffs up your enjoyment of the episodes when they eventually hit your airwaves. On the other hand, you can always wait until you’ve seen all the shows and then read this in the archives.
So…onward…
ALIAS: So on the one hand we’ve got Jennifer Garner in skimpy underwear diving from a height that would seem to require more depth to cushion her fall than the average hotel pool deep end (around six feet) would provide. On the other hand…we’ve got Jennifer Garner in skimpy underwear. So I’m, y’know, okay with the rest of it. Once again “Alias” deftly keeps you off balance, from the passionate greeting by the guy whose organization she’s trying to infiltrate to her dad suddenly coming clean about the video of her just when you figured that plot line would go for at least half a season. The most welcome moments, however, involved Vaughn’s wife having her mind totally screwed with by Sloane. For those of us actually entertaining the notion that, oh God, Sloane might really be on the side of the angels, it was a relief. Either he was messing with her for some dark reason, or else he was doing it just for šhìŧš and giggles. No matter which, I just found myself going, “Ooo yeah. He’s back, kiddies.”
SMALLVILLE: You have to love a show where, even in his deepest fantasies, the hero can’t get laid. At any rate, the moment I saw the trailer featuring Clark and Lana skinny dipping, I thought, “Okay, dream sequence.” But then he didn’t wake up at the end of the teaser, and I thought, “Hmm…okay…maybe not.” But then out of nowhere Clark gets a new car and I see the episode is written by Drew Z. Greenberg, and I’m thinking, “Oh, okay…Buffy/Angel-length dream sequence. Lots of events that are either too good or too catastrophic to be true.” See, after last season’s “Angel” episode “Awakenings,” you don’t catch me off guard again that easily. The thing is, “Smallville” has developed into a compelling “arc” series. And most of the really compelling arc episodes are driven by the Luthors. Why? Because their status quo is the most likely to change, if for no other reason than you find yourself waiting for Lex to finally decide he’s learned all there is to learn from his dad…and then arrange to take him out of the picture. When you’re doing an arc series, though, every so often you need a “breather” episode. A place marker, a done-in-one. Just for pacing. That’s what this one was. And it was engaging enough, if for no other reason than the visual of the Traveller (without Wesley Crusher in tow, thank God) cruising across the lake like a Frazetta painting. And I appreciate the irony of Clark getting whomped on by a guy in a red cape. But with minor tinkering it could indeed have been an episode of “BtVS,” and the best episodes are those which are so unique to the series you couldn’t imagine it being somewhere else.
It’s also worth noting that even Clark is not immune from the truism that, in Smallville, if anyone is seen driving a vehicle for more than thirty seconds, that vehicle will either flip or go off the road or crash and burst into flames. Hëll, Lana was in a car that wasn’t even moving and she nearly got blown up. Ask the Geico lizard about getting insurance there, he’ll just laugh at you.
ANGEL: Okay. I’ve been silent about this for three episodes, but I’m having serious metaphysical problems with the whole being dámņëd thing, and it’s been exacerbated beyond my ability to overlook it with the Angel/Spike We’re Both Going to Hëll chat (which, by the way, was nicely written. “I always liked your poetry.” “Yeah, but you like Barry Manilow.” Heh.) Here’s the thing: Before Spike was Spike, he was William, and before Angel was Angel or Angelus, he was Liam (Sure sign you may be transformed into a vampire: You don’t have a last name. Don’t believe me? What’s Drusilla’s last name? Harmony’s? Darla’s?) And William was a benign individual, loved his mum, wrote poetry, etc. Then, if we go with Whedon-verse myth, his soul went off into happyland and a demon set up shop in his body. Now his soul’s back and, except for when he was being controlled by the Source of All Ev–(sorry, wrong show) by the First, he’s done nothing but good. So why in the world would this benevolent soul be dispatched to hëll to suffer eternal torment? Even the bad guy, Dread Pirate Nitwit, said “Your soul dámņš you.” WHY? It makes no sense that the soul of William No-surname should be taking the big dive when it’s done nothing to merit it. What, it’s killed? So has Buffy, and she floated in peace for three months. For that matter, Liam may have been a wastrel, but that was only for a couple of decades…and the soul of Liam has done tons more good than evil. Why is HE condemned to burn? If one is trying to comprehend the cosmology, it just doesn’t track. Yes, bad things happen to good people, but after you die is when it’s all supposed to be sorted out. Instead in the Whedon-verse it apparently just gets worse.
Theological concerns aside, I liked what they did with the episode, even if Kathleen did embarrass herself drooling during the nude Marsters sequences. (She will likely claim she didn’t. She lies.) The concept of Spike (or any vampire) being haunted by the dead is nothing new, and it almost seemed as if they tried to make up for the lack of novelty by ratcheting up the gore level so you wouldn’t notice. Nice try. But I sat throught the episode where Willow got turned into fingerfood for a Gollum knock-off, so it takes a lot to faze me. Having Spike faced with that decision point, the classic self-sarcifice moment, was very nicely done, however. And apparently he’s picking up a few tricks from Patrick Swayze. If he’s going the poltergeist route, then he can do something other than stand around, which was my major concern. Honestly, though, the best Spike moment was in the trialer for next week with him giving the thumbs up to Angel who apparently was “getting some.” “Good on you!” Can’t wait for that.
WEST WING: Crack out the flashlights, kids, it’s another underlit episode. But worse, EVERYONE seemed in the dark on this one. I’m sorry, I know what they were going for in this episode, but all it did was piss me off. You can have your main characters lose one every now and then, but you have to feel they did everything they possibly could have done to avoid it, and that feeling wasn’t present by half. Here was a story showing a tough sacrifice being made in quest of a greater good…with the kicker being that the greater good then fell through and our heroes were left with ashes. But the way that it was done made Bartlet seem…what’s the word I’m looking for…stupid. Weak. Inept. Bartlet is the soul of the show, and if he’s not strong, you have a show that isn’t strong. Yes, the sequence in which Bartlet has to think fast when the unedited speech came up on the teleprompter was funny…but c’mon, who didn’t see it coming?
Bottom line, this episode presented the characters with a problem: Can they allow a young Korean pianist to defect without screwing up nuclear disarmament talks? Answer: They can’t. Sorry. I don’t buy it. These people have been established as having combined brain power that gives off enough voltage to light up downtown Albuquerque. There should have been a slam dunk way to solve it, and they should have found it, and they didn’t. Which leaves me pìššëd øff with them, and pìššëd øff with the writers depicting them as that weak. CJ says she was disappointed? Join the club.
NIP/TUCK SHOUT OUT: I talk about ALIAS, SMALLVILLE, and ANGEL because they’re genre, and WEST WING because it’s politics. But I have to mention the season ender of Nip/Tuck, which provided nothing short of a miracle: An upbeat resolution to a plethora of downbeat and even dangerous storylines without seeming too contrived. Just when you think the two doctors are going down the tubes, they–along with a bit of luck and the unwitting aid of the Feds–turn it all around. Granted, I kept waiting for Christian to just smoke the bad guys with fireballs in order to solve everything…
Hmm. Maybe I should start discussing “Charmed.”
PAD
• 
Angel and Spike each have their original souls. That’s always been very clear to me. In the Buffy Episode “Angel” Angel tells Buffy that gypsies “gave me back my soul.” The key phrase is “my soul.” If it had been just any old thing from Souls R Us, he’d have said, “a soul.”
Similarly, when Spike got his soul back, the demon that restored it said, “we will return your soul.” Again, “your soul”, not a soul.
So, Angel and Spike have the souls of Liam and William, respectively.
Speaking of the curse, I always thought it punished the wrong person, namely Liam/Angel. The vampire Angelus commits these horrible crimes, but it’s the restored soul of the human Liam, which wasn’t even there, who bears the brunt of the punishment. Yeah, that makes sense. “Let’s punish the human soul that was off in another dimension when these crimes were being committed.”
Rick
Regarding dámņáŧìøņ of vampires, one thing to also note is that Darla seemed to ultimately become an angel of some sort. Remember her trying to convince Connor not to sacrifice that woman in order to force Cordy to give birth?
Here’s a question: Who do you think pays a higher premium for auto insurance: Residents of Smallvile or Hazard County?
Angel:
I thought the exact same thing when I saw the episode. I had never really thought about it before, but Angel did not spend a century being evil. That was Angelus, the demon who took up residence in Liam’s body. Angel is Liam’s soul returned to his body with the full knowledge and experience of Angelus. And so Angel feels the guilt of Angelus’s crimes. But truthfully, none of that is Angel’s fault. In the end, it’s more than possible that Angel will go to Heaven when he dies as he isn’t guilty of anything. Of course, that doesn’t mean Angel realizes that.
Spike’s in a similar position, but he really hasn’t been trying to do good, except as a way into Buffy’s pants. Only now is he really trying to do good because it’s the right thing to do.
I remember in early Buffy they made a specific point of establishing that prophecies were true and immutable. Believe in them or not, they will come true (i.e. Prophecy Girl). Have we ever seen a prophecy that did not come true?
“Here’s a question: Who do you think pays a higher premium for auto insurance: Residents of Smallvile or Hazard County?”
Hazard County. Clark doesn’t rip open/flip over a car every episode, but not a show goes by in Hazard County when them darn Duke boys aren’t drivin’ around town at 115 m.p.h.
<<<>>>
Yeah, those Gypsies were not the nicest of people. Still, they weren’t really in it for just punishment, much less redemption. They wanted vengeance. And they did get it. Plus, it’s not like Angelus has enjoyed the return of Liam’s soul.
Re: Smallville — I enjoyed this week’s episode tremendously. And I wouldn’t object at all if Sara were a recurring character, still possessed of some sort of dream-walking power. Clark might be drawn to a girl who has special abilities, which would throw a monkey wrench into the whole Betty/Veronica dynamic we’ve seen.
Re: Angel — My favorite bit in this episode was the one where Fred starts going on about how cute Spike is, about his cheeks, and then says, “Of course I know he’s playing me. I’m not an idiot.”
Den,
I think what Rob R. was saying about the father killing the child was to point out that Conner killed Jasmine who was his own child.
Angel: So…it’s Spike still going to do that “fading out” thing? Or was that all caused by the Reaper?
Angel:
I’m confused by the Buffy killing comment. What human did Buffy kill? She’s a vampire and demon slayer. As far as I remember, that’s what she’s killed and they are evil so why wouldn’t she go to heaven? That argument doesn’t make sense to me.
As to the insurance rate thing. I’m sure Boss Hogg had all the local insurance companies in his pocket just like everything else. Being who he was, it’s a dead certainty that BH was rooking the populace. So all you have to do is ask who’s more evil about insurance: Boss Hogg or modern day insurance companies?
Or we could just ask Johnathon Kent. I hear lived in Hazard for a while after his dad died and he went to live with his uncle. Given what a hellraiser he was there, I can see why Martha’s dad didn’t want him to marry her.
Angel:
tsk..tsk. In the 1st season of Angel, we see him immediately filled with ‘his’ soul after Darla brings him a gypsy girl to feed on. His remorse repulses Darla and he’s off to Brooding-land until he discovers he’s meant to go find Buff at the Hellmoouth.
The guilt and confusion keeps him reeling for years.
The Jossverse indicates demons control human souls to make vampires, so perhaps human souls
are trying to regain control of a demon, hence the long time involved in redemption, and the reason they can still ‘become’ vamps.
However, what ticks me off is the way no one addresses the Amulet Spike used or where it came from.
That could answer many questions, which, i suppose, is why the writers are waiting to deal with it.
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Considering that Kristen Kreuk has the physique of a 12-year-old girl, that wasn’t especially thrilling…
I think Westwing may have jumped the shark with this episode. The missing presence of Sorkin was palpable.
What was one of the most smartly written show on network became just plain dumb.
If I and other audience members could think of a dozen ways to solve the defection crisis then so should the characters. (Maybe they are trying to get things closer to intelligence level the current administration?)
Why was C.J. invloved at all, she is the Press Secretary and doesn’t have the security clearance. Yeah she was in the room but should have been kept out of the other meetings. Were they just trying to give Alison Janney something to do?
The bit with the speech was pathetic. As soon as they started typing in the “funny speech” you knew something embarassing was going to happen. Toby should be to smart to let anything like that get onto a white house computer.
If this is the Sorken-less West Wing I can’t see it lasting another season, emmy or no emmy.
Totally OT, I know, but the “Q&A” thread is locked and I just have to say, Peter, we’re all dying for you to get to Gwen!’s question.
Heck, we’re all dying to know ourselves!
Hmmm…It makes sense now. Jonathon Kent didn’t get upset at Clark posing as Kal and causing trouble in Metropolis this summer because of those years he (Jonathon) spent in Hazzard county as “Bo Duke”. I wonder how long before Jon’s faux brother “Luke” shows up? (I may have the Duke boy’s names reversed, if so forgive me) :^)
I think what Rob R. was saying about the father killing the child was to point out that Conner killed Jasmine who was his own child.
But wasn’t the exact translation that Wesley worked out: “And the father shall kill the SON?” Not “child”, but “son?”
Everyone tends to view Angelus as separate from Angel, which probably helped keep him alive when he got his soul back (otherwise, he should have answered for killing Jennie Calendar).
The demon is informed by the person it killed. Harmony is a marginal threat because her human self was a moron. The potential for Angelus was inside Liam all the time and without a soul… bam.
Slaughtering his own family and saving his father for last… well, a part of Liam wanted that.
Willow, on the other hand, needs to be in prison.. right now.
Why does Willow need to be in prison? She was completely justified in flaying Warren…
I have to agree with the nay-sayers
about West Wing. If the crew from
WKRP in Cincinatti could pull off
a successful defection, it should
have been a five-minute background
thread in a WW episode.
It’s obvious that they know classic
sit-coms. The whole bogus speech
thing was lifted from an ep of
Ðìçk Van Ðÿkë.
And yes, please explain to the
guy from ER that low lighting works
there because doctors don’t want
to be identified. That’s why they
wear the masks. I want to be able
to see West Wing. And let’s also
eliminate the close-ups of the
posts.
Peter, I appreciate your occasional
offering of a thread to ask
questions. Did you hear my scream
the other night as I was getting
ready to post mine, and found that
you’d just cut me off?
AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
I’m confused by the Buffy killing comment. What human did Buffy kill? She’s a vampire and demon slayer. As far as I remember, that’s what she’s killed and they are evil so why wouldn’t she go to heaven? That argument doesn’t make sense to me.
She capped several of the Knights of Byzantium. They were human. Granted, they were attacking, but they were only attacking her because she stood between them and Dawn. If she’d stepped aside, they wouldn’t have bothered her. Furthermore, it could be argued that they were fighting to save the world by eliminating an instrument of evil (the Key) and she was standing in the way of that, making her–by their interpretation–evil.
It seems to me the whole idea of Angel and Spike getting generic or other souls returned to them is overanalysizing the situation and is a bit silly. The soul (if you believe in such things) is also the specific personality of the individual, not an interchangable part that can simply be put into any body with the same results, such as can sometimes be done with a kidney or other organ. It is what makes the person who they are, not simply a spiritual “battery.”
It’s like when Faith changed bodies with Buffy. If, for instance, Buffy’s body had been killed, it would have been Faith’s soul that was released, not Buffy’s. So it seems fairly obvious to me that for Angel/Liam to be walking around AS Angel/Liam, then that is the soul he has. Otherwise, he would “be” someone else. Or am I being too simplistic?
I was slightly disappointed that, when Darla got re-vamped, they didn’t address the issue of whether she got the same demon back; it would have settled a lot of open questions about the Buffyverse’s cosmology.
As far as whether Angel and Spike have the same souls they did as humans: The relevance of that question depends a lot on what having the soul actually means. In relation to this week’s episode, does it count as a spiritual scorecard where good and evil deeds are marked down? Or is it just that they regained their consciences? (Which seems to be the key element to being en-souled, or at least the most obvious one.) (I’ve always sort of suspected that when the gypsies re-souled Angel, they gave him a double scoop of conscience–after all, the point was to make him suffer, and Liam doesn’t seem to have been the most introspective person in life.)
“If Spike’s original soul, it must be along the lines of Buddhist thought of the soul being like water and merely poured into different containers (IE, Spike hasn’t redeemed the bad karma he’s accumulated). As intelligent as Whedon is, I do find faults in his “demon possesses human body” vampire mythos.”
Quoting from a comment above, if this is the case, then some of Angel’s current (and past) decisions with his soul may be due to the state of his soul before he lost it (the very FIRST time, I mean, come on…how many freaking times has he lost it now??). Look at how Liam behaved–drinking, out all night, the women..well, we know where that went. Is it just a neverending cycle? IF that is the reality, than perhaps he is doomed to hëll. Why then before he was a vampire, with a soul, did Angel not realize what he was doing was wrong? Because having a soul and having a conscience are two different things. I think in the Jossverse being “ensouled” may give you the ability to see right and wrong, but the conscience reminds us of what we have done. We never talk about vampires losing their conscience (probably linked to the soul), but I think there is a difference between the two. Knowing right and wrong are one thing..acting on what you know is another.
Wha? Willow was justified in killing a man who killed her girlfriend? Even when she had him captured with no hope of escaping? Since when is she judge, jury, and executioner?
And she tried to kill people whose only involvement in Tara’s murder was being his friends at the time.
So why pick on Willow and not Giles? He acted as judge, jury and executioner to Ben at the end of season 5, after all.
Everyone tends to view Angelus as separate from Angel, which probably helped keep him alive when he got his soul back (otherwise, he should have answered for killing Jennie Calendar).
Actually, Angel DID answer for killing Jennie Calendar. Buffy killed him in their big fight and sent him to hëll remember? TPTB brought him back.
Buffy did not kill Angel. You can’t kill a vampire by stabbing him in the heart (decapitation, fire, or staking — that’s it). She sent him to hëll, but he was “alive” while there. How he got out was never explained. The First Evil claimed credit for it.
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Couldn’t agree more — you saw that coming all the way down the road. Bill isn’t that stupid, Toby isn’t that stupid, and Bartlett would have chewed their áššëš if that HAD happened.
The last three episodes were turbulence, but now the show has assumed the crash position.
An anonymous poster wrote:
Considering that Kristen Kreuk has the physique of a 12-year-old girl, that wasn’t especially thrilling…
If it had been Allison Mack in that scene, I probably wouldn’t be alive to post this right now.
I’ll repeat: I’d really love to see Sara stick around. It would open up a whole new can of worms if Clark suddenly had someone he could confide in fully. Especially a cute female who’s got a major crush on him.
Wha? Willow was justified in killing a man who killed her girlfriend? Even when she had him captured with no hope of escaping? Since when is she judge, jury, and executioner?
If you’re consistent in this, it raises interesting questions about whose crimes Angel would be paying for if he is indeed destined for hëll. (Personally I think he’s wrong about that, but for the sake of argument …)
After getting his soul back Angel spent years continuing to kill and drink the blood of humans (thieves and scoundrels, granted, but if vengeance against a murderer isn’t justified neither is killing a thief). Also after getting his soul, Angel allowed Dru and Darla to feed from a roomful of W&H types. None of this involved self-defense.
If that type of behavior is verboten in the Jossverse, then souled Angel wouldn’t necessarily be paying for his pre-soul actions; he has enough post-soul crimes to account for.
I enjoyed Angel, was up and down about West Wing, and only saw parts of Smallville. I was a little surprised at the overall darkness of this Angel ep; one of the things The WB seemed to want from Angel, if renewed, was a “lighter” show. In fact, when the werewolf ep ended with that “hangin’ and ordering take out” scene, I thought “Well, that might be a concession to the WB”. I mean, it was nice that they did get to just relax, but often on a Whedon show, a typical-on-other-shows happy ending will get punctuated by a darker touch in the final seconds. (“When She Was Bad” is the example which immediately springs to mind. Buffy, Xander, and Willow chatting in class, their conversation fading beneath the rising soundtrack. Conventional TV show ending. Abruptly, the scene shifts back to the Factory, as the Annoy -er, Annointed – One comes out of hiding, and, seeing the Master’s shattered bones, says “I hate that girl!”) But, maybe the non-twisty ending to the werewolf ep helped pave the way for the “ghosts of the dámņëd” show. “See, we may have this one dark episode, but look – happy, relaxed people chilling out here! And the week after the dark episode – Halloween party! Fun!”
As far as Willow goes – yeah, she murdered Warren. But my reaction to “She should be in jail. Now,” was “Why?” It is certainly a gray area – she shouldn’t have been “judge, jury, and executioner”. But, she was out of her mind in her grief, and under the influence of very dark magics on top of that. And, it’s not like there’s any body for the police to find, to charge her with anything; if she turned herself in, I don’t know if even Gunn would have knowledge of laws applicable to these circumstances. (Though, actually, if anybody would ….) And – Warren killed Tara! Is there anybody out there who doesn’t hate that (bleep) and feels all that badly about what happened to him? (While being happy for Adam Busch that he did get several opprotunities to appear in Season Seven.)
Now, Giles’ killing …. As I believe someone pointed out in a previous thread (can’t recall exactly who or where), he never really does seem to have paid any consequences for smothering not-that-innocent-by-the-end Ben. …At least, not that we’ve seen. Maybe something has happened to Giles, externally and/or internally – and that would explain why he seemed so off at times last season? (Something should.) Maybe we’ll learn something about this (eventually, here in America) if “Ripper” ever does get going – or maybe if everyone’s favorite ášš-kicking ex-librarian shows up on Angel sometime?
Is it just me or does Angel seem to be slowly, but surely slipping to the dark side?
“No Mercy” speech in ep. 1. Now he’s locking this ep’s villain in a tomb, buried alive. Seems like W&H is slowly affecting him. Not that this is a bad thing. Angel seems more niteresting when he’s evil (or even slightly evil).
Oh, and when Angel tells Wesley that there should be a few ghosts around, do they not remember that EVERYONE at W&H was killed last season? Most of them in the building.
Good shows this week. I knew Smallville was a dream. Actually, when it ddin’t end at the teaser, I thought perhaps the whole ep. would be one long dream adventure.
Love Alias for the twists as always. I kinda miss the big cliffhanger endings this season, although this week’s ending was more like old times.
Bobby
Bobby Nash
Writer @ Large
Den – Jasmine WAS the PTB. She was the one who arranged everything from the visions Cordy got to the exact battles Angel ended up fighting. Remember Skip’s final exposition? Jasmine made sure the whole gang got together and that Connor existed. She was manipulating all of them to make sure she could be born and create “World Peace”, her ends justifying the means. Even Wolfram & Hart were her puppets directly or indirectly, given that they were deeply interested in making him “dark” not dead (And huzzah, huzzah, they’ve succeeded. That’s where the show is going – not exactly a stunning turnaround given Angel’s character).
Considering how the Jasmine situation worked out, I doubt any powerful goody-good types will be showing up for a chat anytime soon.
You know, I never bought Skip’s “We’ve been manipulating you suckers all your lives” speech and I think Gunn’s pep talk to Fred afterwards was meant to show that they still had control of there own destinies. Jasmine and Skip just took advantage of Cordy’s condition to further their plan.
I’m sticking with my theory that the PRB and the senior partners are one and the same.
Den – You’re entitled to your opinion, Skip being evil and all. And you could take Gunn’s ramblings about free will vs. predestination as canon instead of a meager attempt to justify living in a world where prophecies come true and higher beings can screw around with you.
But come on: “Took advantage of Cordy’s condition”? Which “condition” would that be? Cordy’s ascension to a higher being which they caused? The return of Cordy to Earth which they caused? Cordy becoming the vessel of Jasmine’s birth which they caused?
Which of these utterly random conditions did the whimsical demigoddess who hadn’t been planning this out for centuries (oh wait, she did and said as much) just happen to luck into? I’m curious.
As for the Powers That Be (assuming that’s who you meant by PRB) being the Senior Partners, um, wouldn’t that make them, well, evil? Or at the very least, deeply ambivalent? Which would mean there’s never been a truly helpful mystical force for good on Angel. Ever. So you can’t really complain about one not showing up to help guide and protect Angel.
If I’ve misinterpreted your points, feel free to correct me. Conspiracy theories are always fun.
Okay about the fact that Spike’s “good” deeds were motivated by love and not a sense of duty…well hello? What about Xander and Willow? It seems to me that no one told them that they has a sacred duty and had to save people. They got into the whole superhero gig out of their love for Buffy. When Anya tries to get Xander to leave town with her at the end of s3, he refuses because he doesn’t want to abandon his friends. And we all know Angel didn’t start in on his whole hero gig before falling for Buffy.
Even Buffy herself is largely driven on by love. Love for her friends spurs her on in the first three seasons, and love for her sister provokes some decidedly un-hero like sentiments in s5. So I think Spike’s reasoning (love) is quite valid and capable of making him a very good person.
And hey, give him a little credit here. He may be working his charms to the max for some self-preservation, but he isn’t trying to get with Fred. (His relationship with her reminds me of how he used to be with Willow in s4, which makes sense, as Fred is more or less a straight Willow.)
I doubt that Buffy patrols everyday to keep the streets safe for everybody, she does it to keep the streets safe for the people she loves.
To be honest, I think we’re thinking about this too hard. Remember, the Hellmouth was merely a plot device to make sure BtVS had something to play with for some years and the writers wouldn’t have to work at it too hard as they could always claim Hellmouth. It’s Liam’s soul in Angel and William’s soul in Spike until we’re told otherwise. There may be some questions of how and why among those who are of the more traditional religious bent, but it’s just a dámņëd television show. Somehow multiple hëll dimensions and the re-ensouling of a vampire don’t bother your theology yet re-ensouling a vampire with the soul of his mortal days does?
I think we don’t know all there is to know yet about what happens to a mortal when he or she goes vampire. There’s what Giles the Watcher thinks he knows and what depressed Angel thinks he knows, but we have not yet had the omnicient third person voice to tell us what’s what. All of the guesses made are pure speculation as we don’t have all of the “facts” of the false reality presented to us. They’re obviously playing with the traditional vampire mythos, so we’re left in the dark as to the truth behind the souls of vampires.
Isn’t it entirely possible that the soul of a vampire is in a limbo until the vampire dies and is then punished for the vampire’s actions? That the soul can be brought back from this limbo to return to the vampire’s body? That the soul doesn’t actually leave at all but is repressed by the demon? That the demon is merely an aspect all humans carry within them that vampires are playing out? There could be so many answers. We don’t know, so it’s best not to worry about it too much and accept that that’s the soul of Liam the Drunken Wastrel and the soul of William the Bloody Awful Poet and have done. Besides which, wouldn’t having a completely different person’s soul change their personality radically? As far as I can tell, Angel and Spike are merely Liam and William with a lot of nasty experience and age under their belts.
AS FOR WEST WING, I gave up on that show as soon as the writers started putting cliches in the witty mouths of Toby and Josh instead of bothering to write as the characters have been established to speak in the past few years. The two-part season opener was decidedly disapointing and badly written. The whole joy of the show was in the strength of the writing and how the performers brought that good writing to life. I feel very sorry for the actors having to perform such badly written sludge after having the joy of acting a Sorkin script. Whatever you may think of his personal politics, he was a darned good screenwriter. Without his writing, there is no WEST WING, just another badly written hour-long drama I won’t be watching.
SMALLVILLE:
You know, if you’re going to do the whole corporate synergy things that Smallville gets stuck with each week in promoting new and forgettable bands (well, most of them), at least once in a while you get the juicy steak of R.E.M. songs, used in…interesting ways. Especially the use of “Everybody Hurts” during Lana’s “I’ll wait” speech.
On the other hand, who missed the chance to toss “Night Swimming” into the skinny-dipping scene?
But wasn’t the exact translation that Wesley worked out: “And the father shall kill the SON?” Not “child”, but “son?”
What if he mistranslated “grandson,” which is what Spike is to Angel?
You know, if you’re going to do the whole corporate synergy things that Smallville gets stuck with each week in promoting new and forgettable bands (well, most of them),
Hey, at least it’s got a noble history. Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies were created to promote Warner Brothers’ music-publishing wing, after all.
Every once in a while, there’s a reference to Spike trying to get his soul retunred.IIRC, when Spike ran off to the shaman or whoever, didn’t he just ask to be restored to what he was before (as in before he got the chip implanted), rather than specifically asking for his soul back? When the shaman/mystic said he was returning Spike’s soul to him after going through the rituals, it seemed like it was supposed to be as much a surprise to Spike (one of those “be careful what you wish for” things) as to the audience. Just what I recall.
But come on: “Took advantage of Cordy’s condition”? Which “condition” would that be?
Her condition as “vision girl.” As for the PTB and the senior partners being one and the same, yes that does make them more ambivalent or at least playing a larger game than anyone has seen so far.
It was always clear to me that Spike went to get his soul restored. “So you give me what I want. Make me what I was, so Buffy can get what she deserves,” he said to the demon – without anger in his voice, calling her “Buffy”, not “the Slayer”. They had attempted to make the viewers question what Spike was doing in the previous couple of episodes – when he said something like “Give the bìŧçh what’s coming to her,” all I thought was “Okay, the writers are cheating now, to try to create some doubt.” And everything he says at the close of “Beneath You” (without rewinding it for exact quotes – already did that for the “Grave” quote, can’t spend all afternoon on this) – “I did it for the girl … to be the man, the man she deserves, the one who wouldn’t …” He was traumatized by his attempted rape of Buffy [incidentally, it sounds as though James Marsters was a bit, too, by the filming of it, from what he’s said subsequently], and realized he had to change. His “Why didn’t I?” – and I suppose the “bìŧçh” stuff, too – was the demon trying to assert its evil, soulless tendencies – “this is how I should be” – but that was about all it could do in the face of the man Spike had become.
The man who had grown enough by the end of season five to tell Buffy “I know you never loved me. I know I’m a monster. But you treat me like a man, and that’s …,” and who pledged to protect Dawn “Until the end of the world. Even if that’s tonight.” (Don’t need to get out the tapes to remember quotes from “The Gift”.) The Spike who collapsed in grief upon seeing Buffy’s lifeless body. The Spike who helped the Scoobies and protected Dawn for months after Buffy had died. The Spike who “saved” Buffy every night she was gone. Who really did save her life at the end of “Once More, With Feeling”. Soulless Spike became far more noble than soulless Angel appears capable of ever being – maybe because his was a more noble soul when he was alive? (Soulful Angel is obviuosly extremely noble; but that’s a consequence of his guilt about what he did after he died.) What that might say about the vampires’ souls, if true … well, that’s part of another on-going conversation. Spike did attempt to “make (Buffy) feel it” – and felt terrible immediately after – because of the demon still within him. But, as reflected in the “Walk Through The Fire” number in “Once More, With Feeling” – “I hope she fries/I’m free if that bìŧçh dies/I’d better help her out” – the impulses of the demon were quickly overridden by the man Spike had become. Even when vampiric Spike thought his chip had stopped working and he tried to attack that woman in an alley – he was obviously trying to talk himself into it. “This is what I’ve wanted all this time; this is what I should be.” His assault on Buffy horrified him. He saw that the demon within him was too much of a threat; he had to make sure nothing like that ever happened again. (Leaving the coat behind symbolizing this.) He had to become the man that could never do something like that. He had to completely subsume the demon by regaining his soul. Red-herring throwaway lines aside, it was the only thing Spike would have done. The other possibility would have been impossibly contradictory to
all of the character progression of the past several years.
Besides – Joss Wheden is on record on this subject. Asked at “a special event to promote (BtVS) to the TV Academy,” “Did the character actually intend to get the chip taken out of his head, as we were led to believe?’ Joss replied, “‘No. But you were meant to believe that he was.'” [Buffy the Vampire Slayer magazine, vol. 5 #5, Dec. 2002, page 14].
On the whole soul issue:
“Spin the Bottle”, a Whedon episode and therefore Canon with a capital C, made it abundantly clear that the soul within Angel is Liam. When Willow breaks the Muo-Ping in “Release”, she clearly states that the point is to break the jar and release the soul into the ether so she can then perform the ritual with the Orb of Thessala to put it back in Angel. As is mentioned above, the Creature in “Grave” says to Spike that he is giving him “YOUR soul”. Human Darla had a soul, and she had the memories and feelings of her pre-vamp human self AND her vamp self. When Connor asks her if she’s Darla in “Inside Out”, she states that she has Darla’s feelings and memories “and isn’t that what makes a person who they are?” (I seem to remember almost the exact same words used in another episode of either Buffy or Angel but can’t remember which; it might have been The First as The Mayor, which would explain that a little bit of everyone who dies goes to The First, maybe all their evil deeds?) When Buffy died, her soul went to Heaven and she remembers being there. Neither Spike nor Angel seem to have any memories of where their souls go when they’re gone. I agree with the poster who says that their initial choice to become vampires is what dámņš them, kinda like the contracts with the “standard perpetuity clause” dámņ the employees of Wolfram & Hart no matter what they do (remember Lilah saying “I knew what I was signing up for” in “Home”?). Perhaps because they made the choice to become vamps, they are forsaken from Heaven or caught in the ether, which is why they both feel they’re dámņëd, cause Buffy sure remembered where she’d been after her last death. Furthermore, Darla’s one unselfsish act got her through the door, and Angel and Spike have both displayed alarming amounts of self-involvement and selfishness in their reasons, it’s part of what they have to learn to get over in order to be truly redeemed. Also, Angel gave a paranoia demon a hotel full of people and effectively killed a donut shop clerk as well as used darkest magics to tear a hole to Quortoth so he has plenty of nasty things to answer for while ensouled that Spike really hasn’t done, though I believe Spike’s redemption lies in being truly selfless, not just doing what he thinks the good guys are supposed to.
As for Buffy killing Knights of Byzantium, one could always claim it was self-defense or protecting her family and friends. Besides, she could have wounded most of them, who later died when Glory ran off with Dawn. Warren not only killed Tara, he also killed Katrina, and both Andrew and Jonathan were guilty of covering up the crime and framing Buffy for it. When Willow flays him, it could be claimed as temporary insanity under the influence of grief and dark magicks (though she did choose to absorb all that bad magic from the books).
As for Spike shanshuing: balderdash. It was clear in “Just Rewards” and from the credits that he still morphs into vampface. The “drowning in shoes” comment as he wakes up from a dream in “Chosen” as well as the recent revelation from Fred about the prophecy makes me think that both he and Angel will be competing to shanshu, and doesn’t that idea just offer up a truckload of interesting conflict for the rest of the season?
As for the amulet business, which I think is how they’re going to figure out how recorporealize Spike, if it was indeed meant for Angel, maybe it was the Senior Partners’ way of ensuring Angel goes bad when it comes time for the prophecy that he will play an important part in the Apocalypse (though maybe Jasmine’s comment in “Peace Out” means he’s already fulfilled that particular prophecy).
I’m too lazy to read the other comments so I have no idea if anyone mentioned this. But what I took from the episode was the fact that Spike, and Angel, still has a big chance at ending up in the big happy place in the sky.
When he first said he felt hëll pulling him under I was a bit taken aback. But this episode revealed that it was a deranged psycho that was dragging him down. So he’s not really headed to hëll. This means that we can still assume that he and Angel are wrong. They probably will make it to heaven.
Okay, I’ve been rolling this in my head over the weekend and I can’t remember: Did they ever reveal the uncle’s motive for keeping that girl in the coma for all those years? Was it so he could control her family’s money or just because he was a weirdo creepy guy?
Oh, and when Angel tells Wesley that there should be a few ghosts around, do they not remember that EVERYONE at W&H was killed last season? Most of them in the building.
Silly! People who get turned into brain-eating zombies don’t leave ghosts. Everybody knows that!
As far as the whole “going to hëll” issue goes, vampires getting their souls back is clearly a rare enough occurance that its unlikely the normal karmic laws can be expected to apply. For better or worse, the soul inherits the sins committed by the body in its absence, like a drunk awakening from a black-out.
Okay, I am probably going to stir up some controversy here, but I guess that all depends on how many people read this, seeing as how it is so far down the thread.
Okay, so when the baddy guy was holding onto Spike while the portal to Hëll was opening and he said to Spike, “Your soul dámņš you.”
Did anyone notice the little flash of a certain person after he said those words.
Now didn’t that certain person look an aweful lot like Jesus Christ.
If you think about it, it would make perfect sense, and would give good reason why Wolfram and Heart want Spike at their place.
And also, we all know how Joss loves apocolyptic stories.
Just a little food for thought.
Antilles
Actually if Peter would start commenting on Charmed and on Carnivale, then he’d hit all the TV shows that I watch.