A note to our friends in other countries who have requested that this be broken up into individual threads for spoiler purposes: Sorry, guys. I sympathize, and that’s actually the way I used to do it. But there were times it seemed that every blog posting was TV discussions. So I decided to consolidate all the major ongoings I watch into one place. Hence the “round up.” I apologize if reading the thread in its entirety muffs up your enjoyment of the episodes when they eventually hit your airwaves. On the other hand, you can always wait until you’ve seen all the shows and then read this in the archives.
So…onward…
ALIAS: So on the one hand we’ve got Jennifer Garner in skimpy underwear diving from a height that would seem to require more depth to cushion her fall than the average hotel pool deep end (around six feet) would provide. On the other hand…we’ve got Jennifer Garner in skimpy underwear. So I’m, y’know, okay with the rest of it. Once again “Alias” deftly keeps you off balance, from the passionate greeting by the guy whose organization she’s trying to infiltrate to her dad suddenly coming clean about the video of her just when you figured that plot line would go for at least half a season. The most welcome moments, however, involved Vaughn’s wife having her mind totally screwed with by Sloane. For those of us actually entertaining the notion that, oh God, Sloane might really be on the side of the angels, it was a relief. Either he was messing with her for some dark reason, or else he was doing it just for šhìŧš and giggles. No matter which, I just found myself going, “Ooo yeah. He’s back, kiddies.”
SMALLVILLE: You have to love a show where, even in his deepest fantasies, the hero can’t get laid. At any rate, the moment I saw the trailer featuring Clark and Lana skinny dipping, I thought, “Okay, dream sequence.” But then he didn’t wake up at the end of the teaser, and I thought, “Hmm…okay…maybe not.” But then out of nowhere Clark gets a new car and I see the episode is written by Drew Z. Greenberg, and I’m thinking, “Oh, okay…Buffy/Angel-length dream sequence. Lots of events that are either too good or too catastrophic to be true.” See, after last season’s “Angel” episode “Awakenings,” you don’t catch me off guard again that easily. The thing is, “Smallville” has developed into a compelling “arc” series. And most of the really compelling arc episodes are driven by the Luthors. Why? Because their status quo is the most likely to change, if for no other reason than you find yourself waiting for Lex to finally decide he’s learned all there is to learn from his dad…and then arrange to take him out of the picture. When you’re doing an arc series, though, every so often you need a “breather” episode. A place marker, a done-in-one. Just for pacing. That’s what this one was. And it was engaging enough, if for no other reason than the visual of the Traveller (without Wesley Crusher in tow, thank God) cruising across the lake like a Frazetta painting. And I appreciate the irony of Clark getting whomped on by a guy in a red cape. But with minor tinkering it could indeed have been an episode of “BtVS,” and the best episodes are those which are so unique to the series you couldn’t imagine it being somewhere else.
It’s also worth noting that even Clark is not immune from the truism that, in Smallville, if anyone is seen driving a vehicle for more than thirty seconds, that vehicle will either flip or go off the road or crash and burst into flames. Hëll, Lana was in a car that wasn’t even moving and she nearly got blown up. Ask the Geico lizard about getting insurance there, he’ll just laugh at you.
ANGEL: Okay. I’ve been silent about this for three episodes, but I’m having serious metaphysical problems with the whole being dámņëd thing, and it’s been exacerbated beyond my ability to overlook it with the Angel/Spike We’re Both Going to Hëll chat (which, by the way, was nicely written. “I always liked your poetry.” “Yeah, but you like Barry Manilow.” Heh.) Here’s the thing: Before Spike was Spike, he was William, and before Angel was Angel or Angelus, he was Liam (Sure sign you may be transformed into a vampire: You don’t have a last name. Don’t believe me? What’s Drusilla’s last name? Harmony’s? Darla’s?) And William was a benign individual, loved his mum, wrote poetry, etc. Then, if we go with Whedon-verse myth, his soul went off into happyland and a demon set up shop in his body. Now his soul’s back and, except for when he was being controlled by the Source of All Ev–(sorry, wrong show) by the First, he’s done nothing but good. So why in the world would this benevolent soul be dispatched to hëll to suffer eternal torment? Even the bad guy, Dread Pirate Nitwit, said “Your soul dámņš you.” WHY? It makes no sense that the soul of William No-surname should be taking the big dive when it’s done nothing to merit it. What, it’s killed? So has Buffy, and she floated in peace for three months. For that matter, Liam may have been a wastrel, but that was only for a couple of decades…and the soul of Liam has done tons more good than evil. Why is HE condemned to burn? If one is trying to comprehend the cosmology, it just doesn’t track. Yes, bad things happen to good people, but after you die is when it’s all supposed to be sorted out. Instead in the Whedon-verse it apparently just gets worse.
Theological concerns aside, I liked what they did with the episode, even if Kathleen did embarrass herself drooling during the nude Marsters sequences. (She will likely claim she didn’t. She lies.) The concept of Spike (or any vampire) being haunted by the dead is nothing new, and it almost seemed as if they tried to make up for the lack of novelty by ratcheting up the gore level so you wouldn’t notice. Nice try. But I sat throught the episode where Willow got turned into fingerfood for a Gollum knock-off, so it takes a lot to faze me. Having Spike faced with that decision point, the classic self-sarcifice moment, was very nicely done, however. And apparently he’s picking up a few tricks from Patrick Swayze. If he’s going the poltergeist route, then he can do something other than stand around, which was my major concern. Honestly, though, the best Spike moment was in the trialer for next week with him giving the thumbs up to Angel who apparently was “getting some.” “Good on you!” Can’t wait for that.
WEST WING: Crack out the flashlights, kids, it’s another underlit episode. But worse, EVERYONE seemed in the dark on this one. I’m sorry, I know what they were going for in this episode, but all it did was piss me off. You can have your main characters lose one every now and then, but you have to feel they did everything they possibly could have done to avoid it, and that feeling wasn’t present by half. Here was a story showing a tough sacrifice being made in quest of a greater good…with the kicker being that the greater good then fell through and our heroes were left with ashes. But the way that it was done made Bartlet seem…what’s the word I’m looking for…stupid. Weak. Inept. Bartlet is the soul of the show, and if he’s not strong, you have a show that isn’t strong. Yes, the sequence in which Bartlet has to think fast when the unedited speech came up on the teleprompter was funny…but c’mon, who didn’t see it coming?
Bottom line, this episode presented the characters with a problem: Can they allow a young Korean pianist to defect without screwing up nuclear disarmament talks? Answer: They can’t. Sorry. I don’t buy it. These people have been established as having combined brain power that gives off enough voltage to light up downtown Albuquerque. There should have been a slam dunk way to solve it, and they should have found it, and they didn’t. Which leaves me pìššëd øff with them, and pìššëd øff with the writers depicting them as that weak. CJ says she was disappointed? Join the club.
NIP/TUCK SHOUT OUT: I talk about ALIAS, SMALLVILLE, and ANGEL because they’re genre, and WEST WING because it’s politics. But I have to mention the season ender of Nip/Tuck, which provided nothing short of a miracle: An upbeat resolution to a plethora of downbeat and even dangerous storylines without seeming too contrived. Just when you think the two doctors are going down the tubes, they–along with a bit of luck and the unwitting aid of the Feds–turn it all around. Granted, I kept waiting for Christian to just smoke the bad guys with fireballs in order to solve everything…
Hmm. Maybe I should start discussing “Charmed.”
PAD
• 
Smallville’s “Slumber” was a rip of
BtVS – Episode 10: Nightmares
Season: Episode 10 of Season 1
Original Air
Written by: David Greenwalt
Directed by: Bruce Seth Green
Notes:A boy in a coma (Billy) brings everyone’s nightmares to reality. Plot Highlights:Buffy has Master dreams. Willow asks about Buffy’s dad. Master on the power of fear. Nightmares start intruding: spiders come out of Wendell’s book, Buffy fails a history test, Laura gets attacked, Xander in his underwear, Giles can’t read, Hank blames Buffy for the divorce, Cordy is on the chess team, Willow has the lead in Madame Butterfly, Xander is attacked by a clown, Buffy is vamped by the Master. Buffy fights the Ugly Man & Billy unmasks him, ending the nightmares. Xander admits still being attracted to vampireBuffy.
Unmasking the Ugly Manfrom Nightmares (Season 1)
GILES: Billy! Uh, Billy, you have to wake up.
Billy: No. I told her. I have to hide.
GILES: Why? From what?
BUFFY: (seeing Ugly Man) From him!
XANDER: Aw, man, what do we do?
BUFFY: I think I know.
WILLOW: Whatever it is, it better be soon!
BUFFY: Glad you showed up! You see, I’m having a really bad day.
Ugly Man: Lucky nineteen!
BUFFY: Scary! I’ll tell you something, though. There are a lot scarier things than you. And I’m one of them.
(she attacks him, wins)
Billy: I-is he dead?
BUFFY: Come here, Billy.
Billy: I, I don’t…
BUFFY: You have to do the rest.
WILLOW: What are they doing?
XANDER: I get it.
BUFFY: No more hiding.
(Billy peels back Ugly Man’s face and a bright light streams out. In the next instant everything is back to normal.)
XANDER: Hey, he’s waking up!
Billy: I had the strangest dream. And you were in it, and you… Who are you people?
GILES: Let’s get a doctor.
Coach: Oh! Huh. Billy’s got company. I-I-I’m his kiddie league coach. I come by here every day, just hoping against hope that he’s gonna wake up soon. He’s, uh, my lucky nineteen. So, um, how is he?
BUFFY: He’s awake.
Coach: What?
BUFFY: You blamed him for losing the game. So you caught up with him afterwards, didn’t you?
Coach: What are you talking about?
Billy: You said that it was my fault that we lost.
(The coach realizes he’s been found out and tries to get away. Xander grabs him by the jacket and stops him.)
Billy: It wasn’t my fault. There’s eight other players on the team. You know that.
BUFFY: (to Billy) Nice going!
The Smallvile script was practically just a rewrite. Sigh.
However, Smallville’s Ugly Man – The Traveller was cool looking…
I enjoyed West Wing last night – though the formula endings were pretty apparent. I wish they would ditch the whole romance thing with Josh though. It’s better written, but I just don’t like her as a character. In many ways, it was better than the opening episodes dealing with Zoey. I think what you have here is a writing staff that hasn’t quite found their way yet, but it seems to be improving.
PAD – one thought on the Angel/Spike going to hëll thing. You gotta see it from their perspective.
When Angel got his soul back, he spent the better part of 100 years trying to cope with the things he did while evil. When Spike got his, well, he spent a week in a basement but he was still torn up over his evil acts.
As far as these guys are cocerned, I think, they believe they are responsible for what they did. They obviously feel tremendous guilt over their evil deeds, but they can still remember very clearly what they did while evil, much as you or I might remember what we did when we were younger.
I guess it’d be easy for either of them to say “Wasn’t my fault; didn’t have a soul.” But they can’t, not honestly, and I think it’s understandable that they personally might think they’re riding a one-way ticket to hëll, no matter how redemtive they may be.
One reason Angel/Liam and Spike/William are still dámņëd even though it wasn’t “them” might be that, in the theology of the Buffyverse, Liam and William performed the actions that led to Angelus and Spike being able to commit their evil deeds — they were seduced by the promise of power or eternal life or whatever and willingly drank from Darla/Drusilla.
I’ve also started to suspect that the operating moral principle of the Buffyverse is not guilt but shame, which is much less subject to “but it wasn’t me!” arguments…
Discussin “Charmed” would be a good thing, for me.
Cole the Plastic Surgeon… that would be a good laugh.
Discussing “Charmed” would be a good thing, for me.
Cole the Plastic Surgeon… that would be a good laugh.
I find it very amusing that during all the dream sequences (or at least the big one at the beginning) it was full of music by REM. That gave me chuckles all night. And hey, maybe next we can have an episode where they all go into Clark’s dreams and find Pete, because really, it’s like the Incredible Shrinking Black Kid on that show.
The thing that kept getting me about Spike being a ghost was the whole sitting down, going up stairs, being on the top floors of buildings type thing. The resolution of the episode kind of makes that irritation into something understandable. If all it takes now is concentration to touch something, I’m assuming the sitting, stairclimbing, et al can be explained by “Well, he was doing that unconciously, because everyone expects to be able to sit, stand, etc.” Granted, it doesn’t account for the whole going through the desk thing before he even knew he was a ghost, but still. And to paraphrase Gunn, dámņ it feels good to see Spike get his violence on again.
And I’m still waiting for the big Gunn explosion (no pun intended). The white room cat, the legal knowledge. He’s going places, they may just not be fun ones.
Don’t believe me? What’s Drusilla’s last name? Harmony’s? Darla’s?
Harmony’s last name is Kendall. It’s seen in Buffy’s yearbook in the ep “The Harsh Light of Day.”
http://www.buffyguide.com/episodes/harshlight.shtml
Corey
Smallville:
I still think Lionel is setting Lex up to have him committed.
Chloe seems to be sliding further and further to the point where she will start using the pen-name “Lois Lane” (although sources say Chloe is actually Lois’s cousin but that’s never been confirmed).
I too thought “dream” the moment Jonathan tells Clark he used money from Lex to buy that truck. No way. Even thought he seems to be warming up to Lex, I don’t see him taking Lex’s money (and I thought he accepted Lex’s deed to their farm a bit to easily).
Even though it was a “dream” Lex’s revelation that he knows Clarks secret, and his subsequent reaction to it was a very powerful scene. Lex’s rage at Clark not trusting him with his secret was jolting and I wonder if that will be a foreshadowing of things to come. Methinks that the way Future Lex will keep Future Clark/Superman at bay will not be a kryptonite ring but rather the knowledge of his identity (didn’t both the Green Goblin and Venom use this against Peter Parker/Spider-Man)? It’s almost impossible now for Lex not so read about Superman and not make the connection given the things he has already learned.
Speaking of which, did anyone catch the trailer for next weeks Perry White episode? We see what looks like Clark hurling a tractor into the road in front of Perry. Does this mean yet another character from the Superman mythos is going to witness Clark Kent using super powers? That is going to be pushing things quite a bit.
Angel:
Enjoyed the episode. Some genuinely creepy moments. I have to admit though I am not thrilled with the Casper-Spike angle. I thought this was to be the episode that would make Spike a (pun intended) solid part of the cast. When it then came down to Spike having to “choose” between saving someone and becoming solid I groaned (didn’t Casper do the same thing at the end of the live-action movie?). It looks like Casper-Spike is going to be around for awhile. I hope it doesn’t last long (but then I spent four seasons hoping the dámņ “chip-in-the-head” bit wouldn’t last. Oh well.
A note about the “good soul dámņëd to Hëll thing” That could be explained by remembering that their souls are still sharing their bodies with demons. The demon part would almost certainly be dámņëd no matter how much good the soul did. Of course, maybe Spike and Angel don’t think too hard about the difference and simply refer to the demon/vampire parts of themselves. And they might *believe* their souls are dámņëd to Hëll but they don’t *know* it for a fact. Or a simpler explanation: They are just being cynical.
ANGEL:
Peter, I was equally annoyed by the argument that Angel and Spike are hellbound because of what they did while soulless, but I think Chris’s post really justifies that stance — Both Liam and William became vampires willingly (so did Darla, actually). Dru, however, and even Harmony, might be spared.
However, we only got *their* opinions on things. Angel would believe that he’s going to wind up dámņëd no matter what, and I think that’s an important part of his character. Anyone else like how he’s been depicted so far this season? Connor and Cordelia’s loss is with him in every scene almost. This is not a guy who’s going to experience perfect happiness anything soon. I like this Angel (and I like the “blood in the decanter” thing).
As for Spike, his selfless act in this episode might put him on the path to true redemption. He didn’t get his soul for noble reasons (wanted Buffy) and he didn’t save the world for noble reasons (wanted to help Buffy). And his treatment of Wood (even continuing to wear his dead mother’s jacket) shows that he has a long way to go. No, I think redemption in the Whedonverse is not about *not* doing additional evil but about truly atoning for the evil you commited. Spike hasn’t come close to that yet.
SMALLVILLE:
Nice episode. As always, the John Glover scenes are the among the best. The Lex confronting Clark scene was also nice. This is obviously something that Clark fears. Should he confide in Lex? Would it make a difference in what ultimately happens?
> (Sure sign you may be transformed into a vampire: You don’t have a last name. Don’t believe me? What’s Drusilla’s last name? Harmony’s? Darla’s?)
Harmony’s, as mentioned, is Kendall, but to balance that out we don’t even know Darla’s FIRST name (Darla’s a vamp-name, like Angelus and Spike. Even Darla couldn’t remember her real name when she tried in Darla.)
How about Mr. Trick? A vamp with a last name and no first name.
Corey
WEST WING-
A new episode? How can this be? My TV Guide said it was a rerun, so I didn’t tape it. Of course, the previous week I did record it and it *was* a rerun.
I don’t know who the morons are who are in charge of the networks, but I hear there us a job opening at Marvel. They’d fit right in.
Smallville:
This episode was a nice breather episode from the past two. The opening dream sequence actually worked well with my daughters. They never suspected. I knew only because Clark’s hair was too dry after running out of the lake. I don’t care how fast he was, drying his hair and body at superspeed just wasn’t an option. Air dry at superspeed wouldn’t work either it was too short a run. Clark had to be dreaming and projecting a image of himself for the scene.
As for Lana, it seems to me (I missed last season because I was teaching the night of the show) that the producers are toughing her up. Last week, she condemns those who were affected by the kryptonite only to be faced with the possibility that the person she loves might fall into that catagory. Her reaction was perfect and beleivable. If Clark is the most human person she knows, even if he has been changed by the meteors then what makes the person not human–his or her actions. This week she acts like Clark and rushes to the rescue. (What do they pay for car insurance in Smallville?)
All in all, it wasn’t one of their best episodes, but it was enjoyable.
Ever since the teaser for the West Wing episode which just ran, I’ve been shouting the perfect answer to the asylum problem at my TV (which refuses to listen to me):
CANADA!
No, the U.S. might not be able to offer asylum for eggshell-walking reason, but how the blazes can North Korea get mad at Canada? Invite the staff of the Canadian embassy to the concert, glad-hand people around, and the artist is asking for Canadian asylum. He’s invited for tea the next day, and there you go.
Yes? No? Too simplistic?
Corgi
Worshipper at the altar of Sorkin
Yes, Casper did choose to save someone or become solid again, but come on, if there are two comic book icons you just KNOW are going to choose saving someone over personal gain, it’s Superman and Casper. And between those two, I’d still have to go with Casper.
Regarding the being-a-vampire-and-thus-not-having-a-soul exclusion: Early on in a Buffy episode, Giles was giving the gang a pep talk about fighting vampires and said something along the lines of, “Remember, they’re not your friends anymore. When the demon entered their bodies, their souls were set free.” And Angel said, “That’s not exactly true…”, but his thought was cut-off by a disapproving look from Giles. That throw-away line always intrigued me, but nothing ever came of it, and probably never will. I always thought it sort of meant that the demon just released the worst parts of the persons soul, so that, yes, they would of course feel guilty once reinsouled. Any thoughts from anyone?
So does this mean that Faith is doomed to become a vampire?
I don’t know if I’d necessarily agree that Liam/Angel has done “tons more” good than evil. He’s been very active for the past eight years, but look at the trajectory of his life during the 20th century: he went from pretending to still be bad but trying not to kill people, to wandering around not caring about anyone, to sitting in alleys eating rats, until Whistler gave him a kick in the butt and he decided to become a superhero. If he shares the guilt for evil he could have prevented, there’s a heaping helping of bad on his plate from the time he was traveling with Darla, Spike and Dru (he could probably have caught them off-guard and killed them all if he’d wanted to, but he didn’t). He’s been working overtime lately to make up for it, but he started at a deficit (and even if it doesn’t work that way in a cosmic sense, Angel may well think so, and that may be all that matters…).
ON ANGEL:
Last night’s episode was phenomenal, especially with respect to playing out the relationship between Spike and Angel. At the core they are family, and the only two beings who can understand each others’ plight. Steve deKnight was my favorite writer on BtVS (Dead Things, Seeing Red), and now on AtS as well.
I’m always intrigued by the idea that saving the world out of love for someone is less “noble” than saving it out of a sense of duty. Angel’s road to redemption has involved helping strangers, but becoming or remaining disconnected from those he loves (leaving Buffy, leaving Cordy on the Higher Plane, wiping out Connor’s existence and the memories of the FG in the process). Spike’s journey involves deep connections to those he loves, often blinding him to the needs of strangers. Their paths have diverged because of different circumstances and personalities, but nowhere is it suggested in the Jossverse that there’s only one “true” road to redemption (or that redemption and “nobility” are one and the same).
Now that the characters are both on the same show, written by the same writers with the same sensibilities (BtVS always had a different worldview than AtS, imo), I’m looking forward to seeing their parallel journeys play out with less of the “my vamp is better than your vamp” tug-o-war.
ANGEL:
Spike’s problem was that he was either doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (trying to kill Buffy so that Dru could recover in Sunnydale) or the right thing for the wrong reasons (doing whatever Buffy wanted in order to please her). This required no moral compass or any real shift in perspective from him. He was still the same old Spike, just with a different obsession.
Now Spike has the potential to do the right things for the right reasons. We’ll see…
PAD-
FYI on Harmony’s last name; it’s Kendall. As for Darla, that’s not her name; the Master gave it to her. She said doesn’t remember her name as a human.
Having said that, I agree w/ you on the whole “dámņëd” thing.
I wish they would’ve resolved the Spike-as-ghost subplot b/c it’s wearing thin. Pls, turn him back into flesh and blood, undead or alive. I’m getting sick of it.
WEST WING–Okay, first, let me say: am I the only person who remembers a conversation between Amy and Donna late last season, as Zoey was being tracked down, where Donna proceeds to tell Amy that she entirely doesn’t understand Josh, which prompts Amy to ask if Donna loves Josh? See, my point is…that makes Amy a less than sympathetic romantic interest. She suspects that Donna might love or at least be attracted to Josh, and yet she still acts to rekindle the flame? That’s nice. I know that Josh and Donna have this really great platonic, almost “Moonlighting” thing going on, and that the writers/producers don’t really want to get them together and kill that chemistry, but still, while I like Amy, I don’t see her purpose at the present moment. She’s staffing the First Lady, but the First Lady is in New Hampshire at the moment, so I think she’s a little superfluous. Aside from that, you can really tell the show has lost its spark. While I thought that CJ and Josh were written fairly well last night, Bartlet was, as PAD said, verging on inept. I love these characters, but the show…it just carries an “event-driven” feel now, like Law and Order or ER. What I fell in love with about the show the first and second seasons was its wit, its confronting the issues of the day, and doing so with a great cast of characters. Now, seeing last night’s promo, I fear the day we start to see the West Wing promoted with “Ripped from the headlines…” *sigh*
ALIAS is fantastic as always. At first, I didn’t like the “new” Sloane and his role on the show, but now I see he’s adopting almost the same posture as Lena Olin last season…you never quite know where his alliances lie, and what his ultimate motives are, but he’s necessary to the furtherance of the goals of the CIA. Incidentally, I desperately want to see Lena Olin on the show again. She was fantastic, and the thought that she and Jack might have rekindled something in Syd’s absence is very intriguing. I also love that Sark is taking prominence. By the way, possible spoiler ahead, so stop reading and skim past if you don’t wanna know, but I’ve heard that Merrin Dungey is coming back as Alison Doren in the coming weeks, so THAT will be interesting.
I watched my first episode of ‘Smallville’ last night, and enjoyed it for the most part. I didnt watch the first two seasons because it came on opposite ’24’, which is (IMHO) the best show on TV right now.
Its hard to jump into an arc-based show in its 3rd season and get everything that happens right away (I know this because I tried unsuccessfully to get into B5 around season three, and just couldn’t get into it. If I had a computer back then and knew that you wrote 2 eps, I would of made a point of watching them).
I wish I had seen the Metropolis storyline that was brought up several times last night, as it sounded like a doozy. I be waiting for this show to go into syndication.
The actress playing Lana is certainly a hella-hottie.
I don’t know if it was ever mentioned on a Buffy or Angel episode or if it was something I read but the Master did have a full name (first, last AND middle).
Can’t remember exactly what it was though. Anyone else remember?
i can deal with the hëll bound stuff with the idea that you only go to hëll if you feel you deserve it (it’s probably more complex than that given the various hëll dimensions) but remember the gypsy curse was just that a curse. it was designed to inflict guilt and shame, so deep down no matter what angel does he’s going to feel guilty. Spike probably feels part of it too but i think even as a vampire he was full of self hatred.
what is potentially intresting with spike is he was always dominated or in thrall to somewoman. his mother, dru, then buffy. this is his first chance to stand on his own. (unless they pair him up with fred)
what is potentially intresting with spike is he was always dominated or in thrall to somewoman. his mother, dru, then buffy. this is his first chance to stand on his own. (unless they pair him up with fred)
Of COURSE he’s going to try to pair up with Fred. That’s part of his complex…he doesn’t want to stand on his own, but wants to hook up to some woman.
Now, whether he realizes that and grows out of it….that’s the question…
If I were a vampire in the Buffyverse where crosses actually burned my vampiric flesh and my girlfriend spent some time in Heaven, it might actually have occurred to me over the last hundred years or so that the cross symbolizes a god/God that forgave his own murderers in his/His final moments and that he might just find it possible to forgive me given my actual regret for all of my sins, the fact that I’ve dedicated my life to redeeming myself, and the extenuating circumstances (having no soul or conscience with the compulsion to do evil) under which the overwhelming majority of my sins were perpetrated.
I’m still pretty unclear on the whole thing about whether or not the souls given to Angel and Spike are their orignal souls or “fresh” souls that have never lived before. I guess it’s possible that the souls are recycled or reincarnted from sinners in purgatory or limbo that are seeking redemption themselves.
Side note: In addition to the things about this season of Alias that bug me that I’ve previously posted, one other one came to mind.
Remember the bad bit with Syd yelling at Vaughn for daring to think she was dead despite mucho evidence and hooking up with someone new? And Syd yelling how’d *she* would’ve waited despite no evidence?
Hmm, y’know, Syd, your fiance was killed back in the first episode. How dare you have hooked up with Vaughn and not waited for him to have somehow come back to life? 🙂
The Master’s full name, according to the “Welcome to the Hellmouth” shooting script, is Heinrich Joseph Nest.
Have to agree with Peter and Michael Cravens that the thrill is gone from West Wing. This became apparent to me during the last few episodes from last season. Then they announced that Sorkin was being impeached and it all came together (in my mind, at least). Without Sorkin, WW is just another good show; no longer does it have the magic.
Sure sign you may be transformed into a vampire: You don’t have a last name.
Come to think of it, some people say Peter Allen David doesn’t have a last name…
Corey
I’ve scanned through the messages so I hope I’m not repeating something already stated. For my own part, it’s always a highlight to have Peter thinking along the same lines as myself (G). After my wife and I watched this week’s Angel, I pointed out the very same theological problem with Spike going to Hëll even though he wasn’t that bad as William (except as a poet) and has been self-sacrificing shortly before and since having a soul. As PAD questioned, is it a new soul or Spike’s original soul? If Spike’s original soul, it must be along the lines of Buddhist thought of the soul being like water and merely poured into different containers (IE, Spike hasn’t redeemed the bad karma he’s accumulated). As intelligent as Whedon is, I do find faults in his “demon possesses human body” vampire mythos.
There is one possibility. It’s merely Spike’s perception of what is occurring to him. Perhaps something else is occurring and he’s wrong.
One final comment, why did Spike produce enough weight to make an impression in the couch when he had that little heart to heart with Angel?
Okay, here’s my two cents worth for this week:
ALIAS: Can’t knock seeing Jennifer Garner in anything sexy, regardless of the story ‘logic’ behind it. But I still stand by my original opinion that the whole “2 years later” thing is a fake, and that Sydney will wake up either trapped next to or inside the assembled Ribaldi device.
ANGEL: Not sure about the metaphysics (or Fred’s ‘regular’ physics) either. But here’s a few questions I have about the overall season/series that as far as I know have not been answered, yet.
1.) The Gypsys ‘cursed’ Angel with a soul way back when. Who ever said it was his original (Liam’s) soul to begin with? And if it is NOT the original, then who’s/what’s soul does he have now?
2.) Just who mailed the locket back to Wolfram and Hart to begin with? And did they know about Spike being in it, or were they really counting on Angel using it, as theorized in episode 2 of this season?
Food for thought. Take care everyone.
THE WEST WING: I can understand the dilemma the staff faced this week. Historically, I think most U.S. administrations have to weigh the benefits from allowing a defection against the negative backlash from the government the defector is from. In this week’s WEST WING they had to face allowing an artist to defect — very publically, as he was famous and at a highly publicized White House visit — which would ruin negotiations that could possibly keep North Korea from developing nukes. I agree with C.J., but in reverse: It’s disappointing, but I don’t disagree with it. What wouldn’t the government give up to avert a road that could lead to nuclear war? As for the final collapse of the talks, that at least avoided the “every good deed is rewarded” resolution that could have made it too easy a call.
ANGEL: Didn’t see it, but one of the unspoken truisms of intangibility is that people still stand on surfaces. This is usually a given (except for Kitty Pryde, who we’re told can walk on the air), as it makes it much easier to film the scenes — and prevents the characters from just floating off into space or plummeting to the Earth’s core.
SMALLVILLE: Knew it was a dream sequence from the very opening. Clark and Lana have been dancing the will they/won’t they from the first episode of the series — heck, when they *were* dating it barely lasted — and now when they’re “just friends” they’re skinny dipping? I don’t think so. (I also liked how, in his dream, his folks basically did a 180 on responsibility and told Clark to go have fun instead of save someone.) Still, we all got to pretend we saw Lana nekkid!
(BTW, everyone who hasn’t read it yet should read Larry Niven’s essay “Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex.” He takes a very scientific, and rather humorous, look at the problems Superman could have with, er, mating. It should be interesting to see if any of his topics come up in SMALLVILLE.)
I’m happy to at last see some folks discussing the possibility that the souls within Angel and Spike might not necessarily be those of Liam and William. I’ve never really bought that argument that the beings which resouled them were ably to wrench their original spirits out of the afterlife. Everyone just assumes that they’ve got the original goods, but I think they were given some souls which, for whatever reasons, hadn’t gone on to their final rewards. Kind of like putting a new engine in an old car.
But, really, I don’t think it’s their souls going to hëll that they’re so worried about. Rather, now that they have a conscience, they realize how horrible hëll is, and despite their good works, their demonic spirits will be send back to the netherworld regardless (whereas the souls they now have will, presumably, go to Heaven). Thus, the vampires in them know that they’re in for eternal dámņáŧìøņ irregardless.
That’s my take, anyway.
SMALLVILLE- deliciously twisted extended dream sequence- I knew the plot had to do with dreaming and I kept waiting for the “GASP” Wakeup moment which didn’t come… actually started making me wonder about MY OWN perceptions on what was going on…
ANGEL- At least now we know why Spike can walk and sit down on things- subconscious assumptions that he WILL walk and sit down.
As for why his soul is condemned to hëll- I recall something one person said on last year’s discussion regarding Spike’s ensouling- the person asked “Did he get his soul back, or someone else’s?” And when Reaper said “You fool, your soul is what’s dámņìņg you to hëll” I thought maybe he got a particularly nasty soul (for a half-second, I thought maybe he actually got the Reaper’s soul) Anyway that’s just a point to ponder regarding Spike’s soul. Same questions about Angel- but I remember the Scooby gang discussing on how to retrieve Angel’s soul on Buffy, and in last year’s Angelus sequence- they were keen on preserving Angel’s soul when it was “hijacked” by Cordy/Jasmine, so it wouldn’t disappear in the ether. So at least, Angel has a specific soul.
In any case, it’s difficult to remain consistient with mythology that crosses over two TV series and a large number of writers. A single line a writer types up for a single TV episode immediately enters a big Ledger of Canon, and gains mystical quality that is supposed to fit in with all that has gone before and will be writ and spaken henceforthwards… IMHO, the only TV show that ever successfully navigated the briarpatch of Canon was Babylon 5- and even they had to hire a person to maintain the Ledger of Canon (that’s Fiona Avery… who’s now writing for… ThunderCats? What th-? Okay, I know because I bought the first issue.)
eddie
Oh, one more thing re: ANGEL- when the Haunted Lift dinged and opened up for Spike, did anyone think of 2 seasons? ago when Angel took the elevator down to Hëll with Holland? Methinks Spike should avoid elevators for now.
The elelator go down the hoooooooooooooolllleee 😉
eddie
Re: ANGEL/Buffyverse and re-souled critter’s souls –
While it has not been stated that the souls that Angel and Spike have are their originals, it seems likely.
I know there is much of last season that many would like to forget, but it was a significant plot point that, when Angel’s soul was removed again, it was stored in a special container, and the loss of that container meant Angel couldn’t be resouled.
Seems to imply to me that his soul isn’t just *any* soul, but rather a specific one.
Regarding the whole soul thing:
The way I always saw it, was that when a person becomes a vampire, a demon takes over their body and uses the owner’s memories and personalities as a base. Furthermore, in the case of Angel and Spike, when they got re-ensouled, the souls became bonded with the demon. So when the demon finally dies, the soul will be dámņëd by association.
As far as Angel thinking he’s going to hëll, remember this. Last season with the whole Jasmine deal, the crew learned that they all were being manipulated for a very long time, and the prophecies and such were possibly just part of the manipulation and not necessarily true. Angel lost his son, Cordy, and his belief in his own salvation. And due to that extremely well-written verbal exchange between him and Jasmine, It could be that he doubts that he did the right thing in stopping Her. Especially when he’s given Wolfram and Hart as a reward for defeating Her. He’s compromising his beliefs, and this season, he’s a tad less forgiving than he used to be. He still fights the fight, but I think he has given up on the whole redemption thing and just does what comes supernaturally and to hëll with it all !!
Angel:
If anyone truly has too much time on their hands, they can go through last seasons Buffy scripts and count the number of times Spike says “I got MY soul back.” I don’t think he ever said anything like “I got A soul back.” Perhaps we can twist the Buddha a bit and say while a soul can fill any vessel, the vessel only takes one soul.
I’m not at all sure about the idea that Spike is full of self hatred. I think the Spike we all know and love thinks that whatever he’s doing at any particular moment is pretty dámņ terrific.
Heck, just because Angel is a gloomy gus and assumes he and Spike are dámņëd doesn’t mean it’s true. Even Spike being pulled down into hëll now and then isn’t proof – it could simply be a condition of his… er… condition.
On Spike and Angel’s ‘ticket to Hëll’ some thoughts:
-Firstly as some already pointed out, this was only Angel’s OPINION. He has no clue about what cosmic justice would be for him. It’s his own sense of guilt that makes him see himself as hellbound no matter what. But he went to hëll because of the Acathla spell, not some judgment.
-Spike nearly went to hëll this ep not for his evil, but because of Pavayne. He said so literally. He’d been feeding souls to hëll ‘so he could stay out’. And the remark that Spike’s soul would dámņ him to suffering referred for me to the fact that Angelus would have been fine in hëll too. Soulless demons would be. But a soul in hëll suffers by default.
-The nature of vampirism in Whedonverse has always been an ongoing discovery. I tend to disregard Giles’ early remarks since he went purely by Council wisdom. And we learned how up on things they were sometimes. That there is difference in humanity between vampires was established with the ‘Judge’ story in Season 2. I have to agree with the person who said that the demonic infection brings out a person’s capacity for evil. That also explains why there are differences. And why Angel feels so guilty, knowing his evil side is legendary even among vamps.
I enjoyed Hellbound and hope to see more of Spike and Angel’s interacting. And some flashbacks maybe.
Is there any deaper meaning in that Reaper constantly referred to Spike’s VAMPIRE SOUL. Is that different from a Human Soul? 🙂
Peter, do you watch Joan of Arcadia or 24? I’d be interested in your thoughts on those shows as well (once 24 starts again).
Smallville and Angel still grabbing me much for the reasons people have been listing the last few weeks, Alias kinda lost me somewhere in the first season.
The interesting thing about Charmed is that it is the second and third seasons in re-runs that grabbed me, last couple seasons were mixed in quality, and this season isn’t grabbing me at all. So if you’re regularlly watching Charmed, and it gets better, or they ask you to write an episode, I wanna know. Otherwise I’m watching “Carnivale” on HBO.
Last season with the whole Jasmine deal, the crew learned that they all were being manipulated for a very long time, and the prophecies and such were possibly just part of the manipulation and not necessarily true. originally posted by Big D
Well, as far as fake prophecies go, didn’t the one that turned Wes to the dark side say something about the father killing the child…and isn’t that what ultimately happened?
Rob R.
Smallville:
Good episode, but where the hëll is Pete?? Is that all the writers can think for him to do anymore? Tell Clark in a dream that he missed a history test?
Angel:
I’ve always felt that Liam/Angel’s soul should not bear the guilt for the things done when Angelus was incontrol of the body. As for whose soul it is, I think last season made it clear that they needed Angel’s soul and not any old soul plucked from heaven in order to stop Angelus.
Spike is a little different. I think deep down, William the momma’s boy really wanted to break out of all of society’s conventions but couldn’t, so even with his soul back, he still secretly enjoyed letting his bad self run around for 100 years. Poets tend to be self-absorbed anyway, right? 🙂
What really bothers me is having Angel conclude that the prophecy was bogus is another signal that Whedon has abandoned the whole concept that Angel had been chosen by the Powers That Be to be their champion. With Cordy spending most of last season in another dimension, under the control of Jasmine, or in a coma, we had a year where Angel was cut off from the PTB. Now, he’s running an evil law firm with full knowledge that the senior partners are still trying to manipulate events behind the scenes. But is seems like the mystical good guys are no where to be found. You’d think they’d put up a fight to keep their champion under their control.
Well, as far as fake prophecies go, didn’t the one that turned Wes to the dark side say something about the father killing the child…and isn’t that what ultimately happened?
Yes, even though Angel made a deal to bring him back with a second chance at life. Also, I think the fire from the sky and the idea of Jasmine’s blood breaking people out of her spell were two of the signs (earthquake, fire, blood) that the Hamburger warned Wesley about. Wes just jumped the gun when the fire broke out in the hotel after the earthquake and Angel cut himself.
ANGEL: I think there’s no actual reason to believe that Spike and Angel are definitely headed for hëll without passing go and collecting $200. Just because Angel blieves it and just because Reaper taunted Spike with it doesn’t mean it’s true.
It’s entirely possible that the only reason Angel’s soul went to hëll in BtVS season 2 was the timing of Willow’s spell. It looks like the only reason Spike was being sucked into hëll was because he was being pushed by
Reaper.
There’s also no real reason to believe that Shanshu is a false prophecy just becuase Angel’s lost faith in prophecies. It’s entirely
possible that Spike has *already* shanshued and his continued spectral existence was the result instead of the long assumed reward of humanity.
Again it’s possible that Angel was cast out of hëll in BtVS season 3
*because* his soul didn’t truly belong there. Everyone talks about
Buffy having killed Angel, but we both know that’s not what happened. You can’t
kill a vampire by stabbing him with a sword and just because you’re in hëll doesn’t mean you died (undied?) to get there. In the Whedonverse hëll is
simply another dimension (well, lots of other dimensions INCLUDING ours if we’re to believe Holland Manners) and the reason Angel went there was because he got sucked into the vortex created by Acathla. Spike may still
be around for the same reason. There’s no fair way to judge him so
he’s been given another chance to prove where exactly he belongs after his final judgement. Kind of a Whedonesque Purgatory.
I’ve been watching ME shows for 11+ seasons and the one thing I’ve
learned is never believe
something simply because a character said it unless it’s said by either Spike, Anya or Cordelia. They have (had) a higher percentage of being
correct simply because the writers often use them as the “teller of
unpopular truths” and even they are often wrong when their statements aren’t unpopular and quickly dismissed. After all, tact is simply not saying true stuff.
Assume nothing, question everything everyone says because the ME writers always leave us enough room to do so. Everything can, and will, turn on a dime in a single moment and it will several times before the season is over. It’s one of the things that makes ME such a great production company.