If anyone’s been wondering why I’ve worked so hard to push “Fallen Angel,” I can respond with two words: “Bad Girls.”
Some months ago (as some of you may remember) I discussed how DC was starting up several new books with kick-ášš female protagonists. My feeling had been that they should be launched as a new imprint, collectively called “Dangerous Curves.” My concern was that otherwise they’d get little-to-no retailer support. I’m not even talking fan support here; I’m saying that orders wouldn’t be sufficient for the fans to sample the book. That, combined with two prevalent attitudes–(1) we can always reorder DC titles, so not to worry and (2) I’ll wait for the trade paperback, so not to worry–might provide insurmountable hurdles.
Well, ultimately the new label idea was nixed in favor of a sort of oh-by-the-way mention in the back pages of DC comics after the solicits were already in. Outcome: “Bad Girls,” intended as a six issue series, is canceled as of #5.
Meantime “Fallen Angel” gets sterling reviews, but retailers are freaking over whether to sell it to readers under eighteen (deftly throwing a monkey wrench into sales) even though it features language and material no more extreme than you’d see or hear in the average PG-13 film.
So: No, you can’t always reorder DC titles, and trade paperbacks aren’t guaranteed. So if you’re going to read “Fallen Angel,” do it now.
PAD
• 
Let’s talk about (2) – I’ll wait for the trade paperback, so not to worry. Lately, after buying a week’s worth of DC comics where every other page was an advertisement, I finally said enough and trimmed down my buying list considerably, in favor of trade paperbacks. I have to say, I seem to (shudder) much prefer Marvel’s seeming constant reprinting of their monthlies in trade paperbacks than I do the sporadic collections at DC; you’re right, PAD, trade paperbacks aren’t guaranteed — but maybe they should be?
I know the old argument — unless fans are concerned that whatever title isn’t going to come out in trade, they’d never buy the monthlies, and the title would be cancelled (for the sake of discussion. I know this doesn’t apply to everyone). My question: is there any way to support a title, like say Fallen Angel, with only buying the possible trade? Because it seems like the trade-only people are dependent on the monthly-only people to decide whether or not they get trades in the first place. And why is it financially sound for Marvel to release so many trades (why isn’t Marvel worried about people not buying their monthlies) and DC is worried, if that’s indeed DC’s reason?
Thanks PAD for bringing this up; I’d be eager to hear other people’s opinions.
I’ve managed to get my local comic retailer to order large amounts of Fallen Angel.
I did so by asking just about everyone in the store when I’m there if they’ve read it yet – they usually become curious and buy a copy, and it’s not long before the store runs out. Then more have to be ordered next time around.
I have lost all my faith in retailers since Supergirl #75 and #76. “Fallen Angel” is such a great series with so much potential for future stories, I`d hate to see it canceled.
Pascal
Too bad about Bad Girls. Gotta say, despite the awesome cover art the inside didn’t wow me at all. Which is quite the reverse with Fallen Angel, where the Kaluta covers aren’t too much my cuppa, while the very-different-PAD-indeed inside is quite captivating.
I’m doing my part – buying FA and tellign all my friends about it. At least one of them has started buying it as well.
“Lately, after buying a week’s worth of DC comics where every other page was an advertisement, “
What I love about DC is that they print usually at least 8 of their ads on the same two/four pages, so that you can very easily tear them out of the book. I think you’re confusing them with Marvel, who very much literally print an ad on every other page
Ahhh yes…
Those evil, evil retailers are at it again.
I mean, that has to be it, right?
I mean, “Buffy, The Vampire Slayer,” “Catwoman,” “Harley Quinn,” “Elektra,” and “Alias” all were doing those fabled “X-Men” numbers, right, and so it naturally must be the evil retailer’s fault for all of this.
PAD, I like your work. I support your work. I recommend your work.
So do a whoooole lotta retailers I know.
You say it’s the minority? I don’t go for that. Please provide hard numbers for these constant allegations against retailers. I don’t want heresay, I want real evidence that can be provided two ways:
First, have a poll at a convention, where a huge gathering of fans gather, and ask them if they are aware of “Fallen Angel.” Next, ask, without further comment on the series, what comics they collect. Next, ask them if they collect “Fallen Angel,” if they haven’t list it as one of their titles. Lastly, ask them why not.
Since a comic book convention is still a collection of the most devoted fans, and not truly representative of the whole community of comic book readers one finds at the shops, the answers will still not be as conclusive as one could hope. Still, it would be a much more reliable source of information than the message boards and use-groups.
Also, poll all the retailers at a con and ask them if they order “Fallen Angel.” Then, ask those retailers that say they do not order it why don’t they order it?
There is no grand conspiracy to rob you, or any other comics pro, of readers, PAD. Retailers, by the whole, order what sells. If they do not, they will fail and close shop.
For once, I’d like to see some comics pro stop using retailers as a convienent excuse for their own failings, or the failings of the publisher.
I hate to say it, PAD, because I do enjoy your work, and I enjoy posting and reading your comments, but you make me want to support Joe Quesada’s assertion from a couple of years ago when he said that maybe you should look into the mirror when seeking what is wrong with the sales.
I know I’m tired, as a retailer, for being blamed for your failures. I ordered your “Supergirl” comics, and I promoted them. I order your “Captain Marvel” comics and promote them. — And, yes, I order your “Fallen Angel” and I promote it.
And if it’s not either of us to blame, or the publisher, maybe, just maybe, it’s not the customer’s cup of tea.
It happens.
Now, excuse me, I have to get out the whiplash, tie Polly Purebread to the railroad tracks and wait for the oncoming train to crush her while I cackle incessantly.
Matthew Hawes
Comics Unlimited
654-B E. Diamond Ave.
Evansville, IN. 47711
There are some books that work better as a TPB than as indivudual issues. Back when THE SANDMAN was new, I enjoyed reading the whole story arc in one sitting, rather than reading a chapter then waiting a month, then the next chapter than waiting a month… (I do the same for POWERS right now.) Some TPBs also have nice extras: The “extra” chapter at the end of KINGDOM COME was absolutely amazing, and completely absent from the regular series. And when it comes to storing/lending out comics, TPBs are more managebale than individual issues.
There are a couple of books I get in issue form each month, but these tend to work better as individual stories than as part of a storyline. (KNIGHTS OF THE DINNER TABLE has several ongoing stories, but each issue still feels pretty complete.) I don’t know if this because KODT is lighter in tone, or they have enough contained stories (“One-two punches”) to make the individual issue feel good on its own.
Good to see that DC is continuing its trend of odd and idiotic publishing decisions of late by lowering the axe on “Bad Girls” an issue sooner than had been planned. (Really, folks: one further issue? Where’s the harm, especially if it allows the story to play out as orignially created?) After the “Supergirl” and “Young Justice” decisions, I’m starting to wonder about just how desperately some folks there must be looking for places to cut back, and then I look over the racks every week and wonder why there are still so many medicore titles featuring the same characters, concepts, and artistic approaches….
As to TPBs, well, that is a sticky wicket. I’m moving increasingly away from the monthlies due to a number of factors (durability and storage, story pacing, and diversity of concepts chief among them), but still try to buy new monthlies of series I want to support, such as “Fallen Angel”. But there’s no question: if I knew FA was going to be collected, I’d far prefer to get it in that format. It’s still a roll of the dice until the industry moves in that direction more fully, with chapter book OGNs becoming the norm. The only books I really feel confident waiting for the TPBs on are “Alias” (which was a no-brainer from the start), and the Oni Press boooks, “Hopeless Savages” and “Blue Monday,” since that press seems deeply committed to the collected format. If I’d had the option of ordering, say, the first 6-8 issues of FA in a trade paperback form, I’d definately have taken it. Wonder if something like that is an option for the future?
Bad Girls would have lost money on it’s last issue…just like it did with every other issue. DC axed it to try and save a bit of money.
DC publishes a LOT of comics as “loss leaders” hoping to use them to pitch TV and movie projects and for the trade paperback market. I don’t see that any publisher has to print something that isn’t going to make them any money…of course, I’m still waiting for the conclusion to the Kyle Baker “Shadow” story, “Sonic Distortion” and anything Neal Adams has done since 1976.
From one retailer, some actual numbers (just one store, thus not indicative of a trend). And, in each case, the numbers do not reflect a sell-out – excess copies remain available.
Sales on Bad Girls:
#1 – 2 copies
#2 – 0 copies
#3 – 0 copies
Sales on Fallen Angel:
#1 – 5 copies
#2 – 4 copies
#3 – 3 copies
This is not an incentive to keep order levels up. At some point consumers, not retailers, drive the ordering cycle.
Due to the nature of ordering, I’m often willing to pad orders for the first 3 issues of a new title, taking into account the creators, the content, any rationally comparable sales histories, the time of year, total budget for the month and so on (by the time orders for #4 are due, will finally have some concrete sales info on #1). But come #4 and up, the harsh dictates of economics must take precedence.
Spot the hidden cancellation message.
Too bad you couldn’t resolve your issues with Marvel sooner, because this seems like the sort of book they would have eagerly pushed. (Although perhaps not so creator-owned…)
Ahhh yes…Those evil, evil retailers are at it again.
*sigh*
No, Matt, I didn’t say that. Furthermore, I’d have thought that a reasonably bright fellow as you usually present yourself to be wouldn’t have felt the need to take a commentary on marketing difficulties and respond with a screed over how Poor Beleagured Retailers Are Being Blamed For Everything.
I didn’t make an attack nor ascribe evil doings to retailers. I said that in today’s marketplace you have to take extraordinary efforts to get noticed and sustain an audience when launching a new non-mainstream-universe, non-imprint (Vertigo, for instance) title. Do you disagree with that? If yes, I’m amazed. If no, then what *are* you going on about?
I think everything I said made perfect sense. I said retailers and fans would likely have been more interested in checking out and/or carrying a new imprint of books with a specific editorial angle than a few individual, rootless titles that were tossed out to sink or swim. Now you may disagree with that, although I think it’s a reasonable stance to take. But *that’s* what I said.
I said retailers “freaked out” over “Fallen Angel” content. You disagree? You weren’t the one who had to field the e-mails and the frantic calls over a book that had fans writing me and saying, “*This* is what the uproar was about?”
I said retailers were going on the assumption that DC books could be reordered and therefore ordered conservatively up front. Did you think I fabricated that? Not only have retailers told me that, but it’s obvious that’s what DC thinks; why else the string of “We’re Sold Out” press releases?
I said a growing number of fans are waiting for trade collections. Not only that, but what many of them are doing is buying and reading the first issue and/or second issue and then saying, “Okay, I liked this; when the trade paperback comes out, I’ll buy that.”
I’m very aware that many retailers support my work. A number of retailers in the recent “Comics Retailer” listed “Fallen Angel” as one of their “pleasant surprises,” i.e., performing better than expected.
Agree or disagree with what I say. Argue or don’t argue what I say. But kindly don’t concoct a simplistic point of view for me and then attack that. It’s beneath you.
PAD
Fallen Angel is the only title I buy from DC and is the first I intend to get on a normal basis. Lets just support it and hope DC does the right thing and keeps it for the long run. Besides, after Yiung Justice and Supergirl, you can’t blame Peter for being a little worried, can you? P.S. Quick Question: When do the next two New Frontier books come out? My book store only had Gods Above.
Sad to hear about Bad Girls. I didn’t get it initially, but I did go back and pick it up after Xtine Norrie and J Bone started working on it.
When do the next two New Frontier books come out? My book store only had Gods Above.
Hardcovers and trade paperbacks are on a different schedule from the mass-market paperbacks (since they’re run on different presses); they’re all October books, but as the Star Trek books don’t have strict street dates, than can range from September 1st (with eBooks moreso than print ones; the eBook of A Good Day to Die, a November book, was out on Friday) to October 31st.
I can understand DC kicking Bad Girls (which BTW probably WOULD sell better as a movie than a comic if that was what DC was going for) but it still leaves me a bit upset for the future of other of newer DC titles. I hope Fallen Angel is not even close to trouble, PAD, since the series only really started to get interesting with #3, I hate getting involved with characters only for them to be yanked away. I learned that the hard way from how Supergirl turned out.
I checked out the first two issues of Fallen Angel and stopped buying it. My problem with the title is aside from the bizare setting, it reads too much like a generic crimefighting book. I think we have enough of these. God, we have more than enough.
If PAD’s gonna try a creator owned mature book I’d rather see him try to push the envelope. Do something like a Transmetropolitan or a Y the Last Man or Planatary or something. Do we really need another crime fighting book, even if the lead is female?
I can understand DC kicking Bad Girls (which BTW probably WOULD sell better as a movie than a comic if that was what DC was going for) but it still leaves me a bit upset for the future of other of newer DC titles. I hope Fallen Angel is not even close to trouble, PAD, since the series only really started to get interesting with #3, I hate getting involved with characters only for them to be yanked away. I learned that the hard way from how Supergirl turned out.
Marketing, marketing, marketing.
Instead of tons of in-house ads for the latest revamp team on the superhero book of the month, it sure seems to me that a marketing push for Bad Girls and Fallen Angel should have been in order. Seriously, what’s the use of developing a new product and not letting your buyers know it’s there?
Hopefully, with all the good press you’ve been getting with Fallen Angel, DC will decide that it’s worth promoting. Or else you might want to have a crossover with Wolverine…
“I said that in today’s marketplace you have to take extraordinary efforts to get noticed and sustain an audience when launching a new non-mainstream-universe, non-imprint (Vertigo, for instance) title.”
How hard would it have been to slap a Vertigo logo on Fallen Angel? I wouldn’t think it would be averse to that brand’s image.
“…Kindly don’t concoct a simplistic point of view for me and then attack that. It’s beneath you.”
– PAD
Fair enough. But, truly, PAD, sometimes it seems that you (and other pro’s) want to lay most, if not all of the blame on the retailers when your books don’t sell. I’m pretty certain that’s the message many take from such messages as your initial post on this thread.
Just look at Pascal’s post:
“I have lost all my faith in retailers since Supergirl #75 and #76… “
I’ve read enough of your own posts and columns where you were pretty defensive at any slight, real or imagined, leveled at writers. So, I hope you can understand why I might get a little testy when it seems as if retailers are getting the bum rap, again.
” …I said retailers ‘freaked out’ over ‘Fallen Angel’ content. You disagree? You weren’t the one who had to field the e-mails and the frantic calls over a book that had fans writing me and saying, ‘*This* is what the uproar was about?’…” – PAD
Yes, I disagree that retailers “freaked out,” at least on the side of the majority of retailers. You say it was fans that had written you about the matter, not retailers. And even if some retailers did write you over the matter, I would say most were not “freaked out.”
Now, you did not say “most” or “many,” but we already talked here before about how absolutes and qualifiers are important.
If I were to say that writers are useless, the inference from most would be that I am speaking about all writers in general.
As a retailer, I request that you specify such things. It’s not too difficult to qualify things by adding “most,” “a few” or “many.”
Once again, I know that you are very protective and concerned about the image of writers. Surely, you can understand that I am the same about the image of retailers.
That said, I hope “Fallen Angel” is not in any danger of being cancelled. It is an entertaining read, and if anybody out there hasn’t checked it out, please do.
Matthew Hawes
654-B E. Diamond Ave.
Evansville, IN. 47711
I was thinking…
Guys like Alan Moore can get anything published despite low single-issue sales because lots of money is made in the TPB form. If DC had this confidence in PAD’s work, letting him work on his low-selling series shouldn’t be a problem.
So I thought: Why doesn’t DC have confidence in PAD, he sells plenty of books. Which leads to my next thought: book stores.
Instead of a “graphic novel” section, PAD’s TPB collected editions should be in with his novels, so people who buy his books see the TPBs there and say, “Hmm, maybe I’ll check these out.”
I’m sure you’ve thought about this, PAD. Think it’s a good idea? I know you have no control over it, but I was trying to think of anything that could help sales.
“Once again, I know that you are very protective and concerned about the image of writers. Surely, you can understand that I am the same about the image of retailers.”
Because, of course, retailers get very testy when they’re somewhat less than glowingly identified.
Maybe it’s not comic book fans who are becoming more anal-retentive nowadays.
KET
“If PAD’s gonna try a creator owned mature book I’d rather see him try to push the envelope. Do something like a Transmetropolitan or a Y the Last Man or Planatary or something….”
…as in “WIZARD-approved ‘alternative’ fare”, which mostly substitues derivation in place of true innovation. Frankly IMO, Y: THE LAST MAN is merely a refried interpretation of 70s Charlton Heston movies.
“Do we really need another crime fighting book, even if the lead is female?”
Is she fighting crime? So far, I haven’t seen it. She seems to be just helping out folks who usually COME TO HER for assistance with their problems. She’s more like the wandering samarai from early Kurasawa films, if you ask me.
Too bad about BAD GIRLS, though. Once again, DC kills off another promising concept while continuing to mine recycled 80s superhero mediocrity.
KET
Y: The Last Man, Fables, Gotham Central. New Titles, Selling well.
Fallen Angel, Bad Girls. Can’t give them away. (And I’ve tried. Even offered a money back guarantee on Fallen Angel. Can’t put it in their hands. I still have 20+ copies of number 1 on the shelf).
Maybe it’s not the retailers who are at fault. Maybe readers in general just don’t like these books? Some new titles (with little to no support, or reprinting) take off, and others don’t. I’d see blaming the “we can always reorder” mentality if all new book with new characters struggled. But it’s not all of them.
Unless it’s all an evil plot?
Jerry Wall
Thought experiment time:
What if FALLEN ANGEL had been conceived of and created as a series of original graphic novels, published by DC under a new direct-to-tpb imprint (with attending marketing hooopla), and sold in both comic shops and bookstores? (In the savviest bookstores, retailers would stock it in both their TPB/GN section and, somehow, near their Peter David Star Trek and Sir Apropos novels.)
Would sales be better? I don’t know–but I think it bears thinking about, and I think both creators and publishers need to start looking long and hard at some options along these lines. There are friends whom I’ve given issues of FA to try, and while they’ve all liked it, the universal response has been, essentially: “This is great. Let me know when it’s collected and I’ll buy it. I can’t stand keeping track of monthly issues.” These are the same folks who became loyal SANDMAN, PREACHER, TRANSMET, and BOOKS OF MAGIC buyers in tpbs over the past few years, and who are now snapping up tbps of everything from Y: THE LAST MAN to FABLES to HUMAN TARGET to TOP TEN to LOEG to PROMETHEA to ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN to ALIAS to nearly everything from Oni Press–but who never buy the monthly pamphlets of these titles. I could no more convince one of them to buy each monthly installment of FA (or anything else) than I could convince them to buy a single song from a musician they like each week by telling them it will be more fun to complete the album that way.
Could FALLEN ANGEL do better in such a format? I’m not sure. Could BAD GIRLS? I think so, yes, definately. The monthlies will never go completely away–but why are they still the default original format when there’s growing evidence that when new-to-comics readers buy comics they buy them in collected form?
Robb P. writes:
[PAD] sells plenty of books. Which leads to my next thought: book stores.
Instead of a “graphic novel” section, PAD’s TPB collected editions should be in with his novels, so people who buy his books see the TPBs there and say, “Hmm, maybe I’ll check these out.”
I’m sure you’ve thought about this, PAD. Think it’s a good idea? I know you have no control over it, but I was trying to think of anything that could help sales.
This notion of bookstores’ cross-racking graphic novels with creators other works is a topic, while I won’t say controversy, certainly of earnest disagreement.
First, realize in a very real way, it’s the bookstore that decides in which section (or sections) to shelve books. Publishers can suggest, cajole, inveigle, or plead, but it’s the bookstore that decides. Many bookstores don’t shelve books in more than one section (at least, not officially; furtive patrons or proactive staffers can certainly redress shelves.) Many bookstores feel that putting graphic novels in other sections dilutes the fact that they carry graphic novels at all, which they maintain as a selling point.
On the other hand, some retailers (often, not traditional booksellers) such as Virgin Megastore have successfully experimented with broad cross-merchandizing, racking, for instance, related books and CDs and DVDs and toys and merchandise together. If their success proves consistent, perhaps other retailers will adapt the strategy to other sections.
All that said, I have to say that, personally, I’m not certain that this sort of cross-racking of graphic novels would be a good idea. Advocates believe, for instance, that if a bookstore puts, say, Greg Rucka’s comics on the same shelf as Greg Rucka’s prose novels, you’ll sell more of the comics. I’m not convinced this is true. And I suspect that doing so might result in the bookstore bringing in fewer copies of the comics work for the prose section than it would have brought in for a graphic novel section. Which may well result in reduced bookstore exposure for the comics work, and lesser sales. But that’s just my instinct; others’ thinking may surely vary.
As far as the comics industry is concerned, I am purely a consumer and am not going to make pretend I’m educated enough in comic book sales to have any clue what helps or hurts comic sales.
However, I do want to admit that I am one of what PAD called “the growing number of fans are waiting for trade collections.”
I understand that this hurts the sales of single issues and I hate that it’s necessary, but it is.
Last year, as one of a number of changes geared towards getting my underacheiving ášš back in college, I decided to stop buying single issues of comics and limit myself to one TPB/month.
It just makes sense. If I were to buy single issues of all or most of the comics I wanted to read, that’s close to $100/month. That’s a conservative estimate, too. Compare that to $14, $15, $25 (at the most) a month.
I really want to check out FALLEN ANGEL, and I am one of the fans who have been waiting for a TPB to come out. What can I do? It kills me because there’s so many comics out there I’ve wanted to support, SPIDER-GIRL, CAPTAIN MARVEL, FALLEN ANGEL, THE CREW, not to mention just about every title CrossGen puts out.But when the urge to say “to hëll with it” and head to the comic store comes, I can’t get past the fact that I can’t afford to have my power or phone turned off because I really, really wanted to buy single issues that month. The best I can do is make sure I buy the TPB’s at my local shop to help support them.
I said a growing number of fans are waiting for trade collections. Not only that, but what many of them are doing is buying and reading the first issue and/or second issue and then saying, “Okay, I liked this; when the trade paperback comes out, I’ll buy that.”
I do this a fair bit (and will probably give FALLEN ANGEL a try when (and if) it hits trade). I’ve eliminated all but about a hundred singles from my collection, and have no plans to ever support a monthly series again. Quite simply, I don’t want a bunch of single issues cluttering up my pad, when there’s a wealth of material in trade that I’m interested in. If I think a title may be something I’m interested (like THE LOSERS), then I pick up an issue as a cheap(er) preview.
Of course, I haven’t bought a DCU title since HITMAN cancelled itself, and the DCU is the company whose trade paperback policy remains a complete and total mystery to all. Marvel, Vertigo, Oni, Dark Horse… my purchasing habits from these companies allow me to “wait for the trade” with zero fear. If a Vertigo series doesn’t make it to trade, then it’s probably not *that* good–DEADENDER fans will disagree.
I checked out the first two issues of Fallen Angel and stopped buying it. My problem with the title is aside from the bizare setting, it reads too much like a generic crimefighting book. I think we have enough of these. God, we have more than enough.
I agree. However, it was precisely because the environment of Bete Noire was so different that I deliberately, for the first two issues, told stories in a more “traditional” vein. Two done-in-one stories with easy-to-grasp themes while readers were getting used to the environs and characters.
The tone then switches into the stories I *really* wanted to tell with issue three. Was I aware that some readers wouldn’t bother to hang out and see where I was going? Yes. For those, I’m hoping that subsequent word of mouth and positive reviews will make them realize they bailed too soon.
Y: The Last Man, Fables, Gotham Central. New Titles, Selling well.
Fallen Angel, Bad Girls. Can’t give them away. (And I’ve tried. Even offered a money back guarantee on Fallen Angel. Can’t put it in their hands. I still have 20+ copies of number 1 on the shelf).
I appreciate the effort you’re making. Obviously it’s an extension of what I’ve said: There is resistance to supporting non-mainstream universe, non-imprint books. You cite me two Vertigo titles (imprints) and a DCU title as books that are selling for you, and non-mainstream, non-imprint books that aren’t, thereby proving my point. I mean, you tell me they won’t sample it. What am I supposed to say to that? “Gee, I guess I should be writing better stories.” What difference would it make if they aren’t buying issue one or waiting around for trades? (And considering the number of people on this thread alone who cop to waiting for trades, the point only becomes stronger.)
What I’m saying is that the odds are long going in and only getting longer. You’ve got fan resistence to non-aligned books, and you also get retailer resistence. (And Christ, do I REALLY have to spell out NOT EVERY with EVERY single dámņëd post? Is it that you think I’m stupid enough not to know that not everyone acts the same. If you think I’m not referring to you, fine, presto, a la peanut butter sandwiches, I’m not referring to you. Jeez.) For every retailer who tells me they’re overstocked, I’ve got a fan telling me their retailer ordered no newsstand copies and even shorted on reserves. I’m saying a non-aligned book gets screwed both ways.
With all that said, sales on “Fallen Angel” are actually pretty good. I’m hoping we get decent word of mouth. All I’ve *ever* said, and what I said going in, is that it takes extraordinary marketing efforts to make a non-aligned book succeed in today’s market. I have yet to see anyone disagree with that. All I’ve seen is angsting about the way I said it.
PAD
Oh–Jerry Wall. By the way. You got twenty issues you can’t give away? Pack them up. Ship them to me at PO Box 239, Bayport, NY 11705. I’ll autograph them and ship them back if you think that’ll help. Even personalize them if you pre-sell them.
PAD
This is my first post, but I am a long-time reader of PAD’s stuff and a frequent visitor to the website. I am also one of those who are increasingly buying TPBs instead of montlies. Being a law student, I find I don’t have the time to read the issues every month and have been going months without reading which causes me to forget much of what has happened when I do get around to it. Because of this, I have started to wait until an arc is done and then read the entire story. Since I am reading like this, I decided to cut the majority of my monthlies and instead pick up the trades now.
My plan has been to cut out all the monthlies that I know will continue to sell and will come out in TPB form, but still pick up the monthlies of those that I am interested in and know will have trouble getting a chance to be successful. For example, I have stopped getting the monthlies of titles such as X-men and Hulk while I still get the monthlies of Fallen Angel, The Losers, Captain Marvel, and other books I know need support. I pick up a few trades here and there and have cut my spending dramatically.
This has also made my reading more enjoyable, because when I now get a free chance to read, I can sit down and read an entire story in TPB form. At the same time, I wait until a few issues come out of the monthlies I get and read them knowing I am helping a creative team that I enjoy to possibly last longer (although it didn’t work with the Crew) and give me more of the stuff that I love.
Chad
What? Bad Girls isn’t going to be concluded with the 6th issue? Well now, that’s strange. If it’s a miniseries, why would they want to do that?
Slightly off topic, but are folks checking the COMIC PIMP column at comicbookresources.com? Lots of guerilla marketing type things there. Wonder what the equivalent would be for individual titles?
Ok, I’ve never been a “wait for the TPB” type. Even thought I probably should do that, to save money. I’m used to the pamplet format, it’s what I grew up on.
In fact, recently I did wait for the TPB in a special case, and I got burned! Marvel announced their Tsunami line as a group of book created to compete directly with manga collections in bookstores. The monthly books were just an attempt to recoup a little of the production costs, because these series were formulated to appeal to the manga buyer, will compete directly with manga collections, and their success or failure will be based on bookstore sales.
So, this sounds good. So I try some first issues of Tsunamni titles, and like Runaways. I decide to waot for the TPB. But when the TPB is available for ordering, it is priced at $15.95! That’s not at all comparable to a manga collection ($9.95-$10.95), and I’m not buying it! (of course, I also lost my job between Runaways #1 and the TBP).
Does this actually add to the discussion? I don’t know. I just wanted to rant a little…
“So I try some first issues of Tsunamni titles, and like Runaways. I decide to waot for the TPB. But when the TPB is available for ordering, it is priced at $15.95! That’s not at all comparable to a manga collection ($9.95-$10.95), and I’m not buying it!”
Ummm, it’s also in color and not digest sized…
I appreciate the effort you’re making. Obviously it’s an extension of what I’ve said: There is resistance to supporting non-mainstream universe, non-imprint books. You cite me two Vertigo titles (imprints) and a DCU title as books that are selling for you, and non-mainstream, non-imprint books that aren’t, thereby proving my point.
Maybe you have a point. Gun Theory, another great book, is not selling well, from what I have seen. This is a case of Marvel selling a book, which if it had the Vertigo imprint (or Wildstorm) probably would have sold 10 times better than as a Marvel title (even if it has the “Epic” imprint).
Maybe at some point Fallen Angel could move to Vertigo? Or does that not make sense considering where the stories go?
Jerry
i know this is off-topic but GO SOX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It’s not retailers. It’s not the content. It’s not even the other consumers. It’s me.
See, somewhere DC decided that any book I like/love is going to ultimately end up being cancelled and/or changed to the point I’ll give up. I loved “Young Justice”.I was reading Action Comics. I was reading and enjoying Green Lantern quite a bit….and every one went somewhere I hated.
So you see? If Fallen Angel should ever get the shaft, I should get the blame.In fact, I’m not going to mention it again because I know my involvement will only hasten it’s demise.
On a more serious note,even if sales are not as good as we hope, would it help to write DC? Maybe write Dan DiDio? I’ve been looking for an excuse to gripe at him since “Graduation Day”.
Michael Norton
PAD, I’ve never been a fan of the DCU but now that I’ve found out that this book is not very aligned with it I think it will be accessible. I promise that the next time I go to pick up my comics I’ll have Fallen Angel added to my pull list.
I must also confess to being another “wait for the trade” person. My reasons for going that way were primarily economic – all the books I read I was buying single issues of and then the trades on top of that, and I just don’t make enough money to buy everything twice. Since I’d rather have trades in a bookcase than overflowing longboxes all over the joint I made the switch to a pretty-much TPB only system, and I have to admit I’m pretty pleased with it. My weekly comic shop bill got cut by 60-70% and my living space is considerably less cluttered. It’s a nice arrangement.
My general system for new books now is to read 1 or 2 issues and then wait for the trade if I like it. I will say, though, that DC makes this sort of policy VERY tough to go with, considering that their trade program is an enigma at best. Does it mean I miss out on some things I might like because DC might not trade them this century? Yeah, sure, but I can live with that. I have more things that I like than I can handle at the moment, missing out on a few isn’t going to kill me.
In re: the Evil Retailer Conspiracy Against PAD, I think that –
a) Matt Hawes needs to realize that no matter how many people he talks to, unless he’s holding a full-scale Gallup poll of the comics industry there’s no way his anecdotal evidence reflects an accurate barometer of the retail community at large. There’s, what, 2000-something comic shops nationwide? Even if Matt talked to 100 different ones every month that’s a sample of less than 5%. Hardly representative, especially when stores vary so wildly in size, general customer taste, and ordering policies. So let’s can the notion that any one retailer can speak for all of his kin, unless “a whole lotta retailers” means several hundred every month, which I seriously doubt.
b) PAD needs to realize that he may just be one of those creators who, though talented, are going to have a tough time doing bøffø sales numbers. Hey, it’s a good crowd, nothing to be ashamed of. Priest, Brubaker, Wright… that’s some good company. Sales certainly aren’t the only, or even primary, measure of creative success.
In re: racking of comics at bookstores –
I am amazed that people have as yet missed the fairly obvious point that there is little impetus for big box bookstores (since that’s what we’re really talking about here) to rack comics with the “regular” books, since they already just toss all the manga into its own section and then can’t keep it on the shelves. If THIS kind of comic book burns up the register sitting in its own section by itself, why should they go to that much trouble to give special treatment to THAT kind of comic book when THIS kind outsells it something on the order of ten to one?
Bottom line: if comics would sell that much better sitting on the standard shelves, they would be there. Book retailers aren’t stupid. The idea that comics will suddenly become this zillion-selling full-blown mass media if the Evil Bookstore Empires would just rack them on the fiction shelves smacks more of fanboy wet dream than it does of any economic reality.
A lot of comics fans fail to realize how RADICALLY different the bookstore and comic shop trades are.
JLK
PAD,
Concerning the monthly vs. trade format, I still primarily buy monthly issues of the 6 or 8 titles I get (including Fallen Angel), but also occasionally buy a trade of a title I’d heard of but hadn’t picked up for one reason or another. If I like what I’ve seen, I sometimes start picking up both current and back issues of the monthly installments.
I did that with both Bone and Supergirl. In the former case, I checked out some trades from the library and liked them. I then bought them and current and back issue monthly installments. With Supergirl, I read the final storyline (missed #75, however), liked it, and bought some recent back issues. I decided I liked the series, and this summer ended up getting the entire series (excepting #75). I also got the trade of the first and last storylines, even though I’d already had the individual issues. They were good stories, and I felt should be on my bookshelf.
More recently, I bought the Captain Marvel trade, and liked it. I’m giving serious thought to adding the title to my list each month.
Of course, one of the things I like about monthly issues is reading the letter column, and now that those are gone at both DC and Marvel (though I hear Marvel might bring them back in a limited form), that’s one less reason to buy a single issue. Still, for now, I will continue to do so.
Trades are, of course, easier for reading an entire storyline, but I also enjoy getting out my individual comics and re-reading them. On occasion, I’ll re-read an entire series, usually one or two issues a day. I’ve done it with the Wolfman/Perez New Teen Titans (the first title I actually collected (in a save it to read it later, sense; not a seal it away and never touch it again sense) and your run on Incredible Hulk.
Regarding what a previous poster said about putting Peter’s TPB in with his Star Trek novels: Peter isn’t really considered the “draw” as far as bookstores are concerned. It’s Star Trek, so all Trek books are filed together. If he wrote a Dr. Who or Buffy novel, then they would be filed differently, along with his Hulk or Spider-Man novelizations.
A part of me wishes that comic book stores resembled bookstores more (less clubhousy, more open to the public, and user friendly) but that’s just me.
“
“So I try some first issues of Tsunamni titles, and like Runaways. I decide to wait for the TPB. But when the TPB is available for ordering, it is priced at $15.95! That’s not at all comparable to a manga collection ($9.95-$10.95), and I’m not buying it!”
Ummm, it’s also in color and not digest sized…”
Why not? The Tsunami line was supposed to compete directly in bookstores with manga. They should be digest sized. (Color is OK, and maybe I would pay an extra dollar for the color)
All this talk about buying monthly comics and supporting Fallen Angel (especially reading the few panels that were here before) has made me want to go out and buy them. So, yippee hooray! But, and I feel a little naive, I don’t know anything about buying comics. How does it work? How much do issues cost? How often do they come? How do I figure out where to go to buy them? And how do I get to Jerry Wall’s store so that I can prebuy one of these personalized issues?
Carrie
I’m in Oklahoma….
So just head as far from civilization as you can get….and you’ll hit oklahoma eventually. 🙂
As for your questions. Comics run 2.25-3.99. Fallen Angel is 2.50 (I’m pretty sure). Comes out monthly.
To find a store locally, go to http://csls.diamondcomics.com/ amd you can find a comic store in your area.
If you can’t find a copy locally, call my store at 405-632-2848, and I’ll ship one out to you.
Jerry Wall
The bottom line for me is very simple. I have every X-Factor, Supergirl, Aquaman, Spiderman 2099, some Incredible Hulk,and most of Captain Marvel that PAD has written. I have tried the new Cap Marv and Fallen Angel and do not like them at all. PAD is a phenomenal writer, but the content is not what I like for a wide variety of reasons (including the sexual content in FA). I will not miss either title as they now exist.
I make this point to simply say this: PAD has taken what seems to me to be a big creative step. I applaud his willingness to do so. But it makes me wonder if any struggle in sales is not just because of people waiting to buy the TP (or any other external factor) but because they don’t like the books. I wish PAD well, and hope that he writes other comics that are more like the old Cap Marvel & Spider 2099.
“Why not? The Tsunami line was supposed to compete directly in bookstores with manga. They should be digest sized.”
Got me.
“(Color is OK, and maybe I would pay an extra dollar for the color)”
Color makes up for much more than just one dollar. With black and white, you can go with much cheaper paper, significantly lowering the price. Of course it will then not be as originally presented, something I personally would not support.
I applaud his willingness to do so. But it makes me wonder if any struggle in sales is not just because of people waiting to buy the TP (or any other external factor) but because they don’t like the books.
No one is going to like everything. But what am I supposed to say to that when right here I’ve a retailer telling me people won’t even *sample* it.
The fact is that in many cases (there, a qualifier; happy, Matt?) writing is the last factor in the buying decision and the first thing blamed if a book doesn’t move. Fans might not sample a book because they simply don’t want to add another $2.50 to their comics budget. So what am I supposed to do then?
I wish PAD well, and hope that he writes other comics that are more like the old Cap Marvel & Spider 2099.
The latter cancelled, the former on the bubble until I pulled a major publicity stunt…and heavily criticized because I made use of the 2099 universe. But you express nostalgia for those. So when I say you can’t please everyone, you get what I’m saying.
PAD