I used to post on the John Byrne board when he’d go off on another one of his inaccurate rants about me. No point nowadays. Not only does the merest mention of my name cause denizens to cry “Off topic” or tremble in fear that a fight might break out and disturb the peace), but John announced that he now has the power to lock up threads and delete posts to cut down on some of the “twaddle.” The hilarious bit was that he announced it in a thread titled “Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair.” It is gloriously ironic that he quoted the famed Shelley poem “Ozymandias,” a cautionary parable about the futility of egomania and the emptiness of self-aggrandization. It’s the most unintentionally self-revelatory thing John’s said since he used a quote from a fictional Nazi as his sig line.
In any event, John–who never hesitates to castigate others for proclaiming to be mindreaders, but doesn’t hesitate to put forward his opinions on my state of mind as fact–claimed, “PAD is evidentally one of those people who cannot separate himself from his work, and so has taken each of my comments as a personal attack, responding with personal attacks, including most unprofessional “commentary” in the comic books he writes.”
Well, no. I’ve pointed out that some of his critiques of my work were wildly inaccurate (for instance, holding up Spidey 2099 #1 as an example of how to do a first issue wrong because the hero never appears in costume…except he does, for eight pages. Later John admitted he hadn’t actually read it, but stood by his opinion nonetheless.) And I’ve taken his personal attacks as personal attacks (for instance, his claiming that I advocated the concept of people standing by and doing nothing while policemen were beaten to death.) But I’ve written quite a bit more than John has, and separating myself from the work has become pretty easy. Unfortunately, John doesn’t quite seem to be able to reciprocate. For instance, he obviously thought the sequence in “Captain Marvel #2” in which Rick Jones laughs at the Hulk Annual was some sort of retaliation directed at John. No. I would have done the same sequence no matter who wrote that idiot annual, presuming the editor let me.
Jeez. Jack Kirby created Funky Flashman and HouseRoy, obvious Stan Lee and Roy Thomas pastiches. What an unprofessional that Jack Kirby was. And hey, how about that story featuring a superpowered character visually based on Jim Shooter, right down to the acne scars as I recall, blowing off his own foot with a blast beam. Who is the unprofessional person who drew that story? I’m trying to remember…
PAD
• 
This has been asked a few times, but no one seems to be responding: SOMEONE PLEASE PUT UP A LINK TO THE BYRNE BOARDS, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!
I particularly found this statement by the poster named Robin to be interesting:
anyone who is boneheaded enough to criticize Chapter One as written and drawn by JB without taking into account the source material being re-presented has already defined his opinion as inconsequential.
So in other words, some opinions are actually of consequence, and some are not. I’d like to know exactly what “consequence” Robin thinks the opinions he agrees with are. And then there’s this little ditty from Linda:
And again one must question why such a person would waste his time participating in a forum for John Byrne fans.
Of course, Linda. We forgot that that site was nothing more than an uncritical source of propagandist aggrandizement for Byrne. God forbit actually debate and dissent be allowed.
Never mind. I found it. For all those who have been asking for the link, here it is:
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/248951?it=1
“I don’t know why X-Men: The Hidden Years was cancelled, but considering what a curmudgeon Byrne is said to be, I could imagine it was cancelled just to get Byrne away from Marvel. YJ was cancelled to make way for Teen Titans, and Defenders was cancelled for so many reasons I don’t even want to get into it.”
Comic books are cancelled for one primary reason: Sales. There are a LOT of comics I love, but they went away because the company ran out of money or the book didn’t generate the revenue it was expected to.
As for the feuds in comics…they are red meat for the marks and rarely have anything to do with the product. I hate to say it, but if people paid a LOT more attention to getting comics in front of people who might like them but can’t find them instead of wondering if Joey Da Q has a secret hatred for the color orange, we might be getting comics like Young Justice in front of the kids that would like them.
I also find it painfully sad that the topics of politics and actual STORIES get fewer comments than the infighting stuff.
God, I think that Marvel would make a mint publishing a comic where creators just take turns ragging on each other on a monthly basis. And at the center of it all would be PAD, a funny Spock-like character, trying to make sense of the idiocy.
Remember the good old days when all the mainstream freelancers superstars used to ban together and focus their energy on one single purpose: Goofing on McFarlane (sp?) and Leifield (sp?2.0)
I have to ask… will Bendis and Millar be taking shots at each other 8 years from now?
Serious question… Peter, do you think Byrne still has the “power/influence” to tell noteworthy, important stories, or is his time past?
Nothing much to add, here, really, but for me to say this:
This whole topic reminds me of that episode of “the West Wing,” when Deputy Chief of Staff Josh Lyman logs onto the “LemonLyman.com” message board and begins taking the posters to task.
What follows is, from my experience, one of the most accurate depictions of the world of anonymous Internet message board posting I’ve ever seen. Very, very funny stuff.
I wish I had quotes from that episode. 🙂
**”This whole topic reminds me of that episode of “the West Wing,” when Deputy Chief of Staff Josh Lyman logs onto the “LemonLyman.com” message board and begins taking the posters to task.
What follows is, from my experience, one of the most accurate depictions of the world of anonymous Internet message board posting I’ve ever seen. Very, very funny stuff.
I wish I had quotes from that episode. 🙂 “**
Here’s one for you (and one that many online posters should take to heart):
CJ: “If you ever go on LemonLyman.com again, I will shove that computer so far up your ášš–why are you laughing?”
Josh: “It’s just…technically I outrank you–“
CJ: “…SO FAR UP YOUR ÃSS…!”
SEAN
Bill Roper: That explains a lot. Those stories always read a lot like “this is what I’d be doing if I wasn’t being dumped off the book”. Sort of like PAD’s final Hulk story that way…
Luigi Novi: First, Peter quit. He wasn’t “dumped.” Second, I don’t see anything in that issue in which Peter indicated what he’d do if he weren’t leaving.
Um, good grief.
I’ve just finished reading the Erik Larsen/Byrne/George Perez-bashing, Byrne bashing Alan Moore threads, and I have a headache.
It all comes down to personal opinion. I have no problem with Larsen as an artist, he’s not my cup of tea. I agree with some of his complaints about Perez, but Perez is one of my favorites.
And John Byrne critiquing Alan Moore’s writing….JOHN BYRNE?
*holds head* Oy. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I enjoyed Byrne’s initial run on FF, even though, in retrospect, much of it feels like riffing on the things I feel didn’t _work_ with the Lee/Kirby run. The twilight zone ripoffs, the needless soap opera elements, the need to always keep Ben Grimm miserable, etc., but that’s just me.
I tend to think Alan Moore is crazier than a bedbug, but his work amazes me. The man has an attention to detail, a keen sense of how to piece together a story, weave a tale, so that it ultimately becomes satisfying. (It’s one of the things that led me to enjoy PAD’s run on the HULK, especially his last issue…that issue left me with a lump in my throat).
Meanwhile, Byrne hasn’t written a story that hasn’t made me cringe in well over a decade. LOST GENERATION made me laugh out loud at how mind-numbingly bad it was, YEAR ONE was just….who asked for it? And GENESIS? Ehhhh.
I’ll continue to read this page and Christopher Priest’s weblog to learn the thoughts of creators who actually manage to put out works of merit, thanks.
“Byrne bashing Alan Moore threads”??
When and where did that happen??
LOST GENERATION was co-plotted by Byrne and Roger Stern and scripted by Stern.
While some of this is interesting — when PAD backs up his statements with actual quotes, the WEST WING bit above — it’s degenerating into fans shouting about how much 1) they love their favorite author, and 2) they hate whoever says something bad about their favorite author. It reminds me of the Monty Python sketch where someone complains about a sketch, and someone complains about the complainer, then Michael Palin comes on, saying “I’d like to complain about people who hold things up by complaining about people complaining. It’s about time something was done about it.” He’s then crushed byt he 16-ton weight.
Wait a minute — *I’m* complaining about complainers! What’s that over me? AIEEEEEEE–
Agreed! *laughs*
See, I think there’s room for everyone, and taste is subjective.
What saddens me, though, is that the people I held in high regard as a youngster have come to _this._ It’s what saddens me about Frank Miller after DARK KNIGHT STRIKES BACK, etc. I don’t care if they have opinions. Hëll, I expect people with dynamic personalities to not get along.
I dunno. Even Alan Moore says that WATCHMEN was part of a bad mood he was in at the time, and was never to be taken as the Bible it became later. But I have a tough time respecting Byrne’s opinion when nothing he’s done in recent years has been any good. Sorry, that’s just my opinion.
On a positive note, I actually get where CAPTAIN MARVEL is going, and I do think Byrne would be a perfect choice for AVENGERS, but I’ve always had a soft spot for his protrayal of the A-Team.
“But I have a tough time respecting Byrne’s opinion when nothing he’s done in recent years has been any good. Sorry, that’s just my opinion.”
I take it that you did not check Generations 3?? Fun serie, although I wish DC gave him a better inker. But it is a fun book despite of that.
I would say that it is jus tmy opinion, but it seems obvious enough that what people post on the web is just that… their opinion. Oh well.
“I do think Byrne would be a perfect choice for AVENGERS, but I’ve always had a soft spot for his protrayal of the A-Team.”
He did a great run on Avengers. But with the current Marvel politics, not sure it would be such a great idea.
We will have to settle for is JLA run soon.
We shall see.
Byrne. Byrne. Byrne.
The guy is a real piece of work. If he was a superhero , I’d call him ‘Mr. Hypocrite’. How many times can this guy say one thing and then do the other?
Now, he’s been granted the ‘power’ to ban and delete anything on the site dedicated to him.
I have this image of him dressed like Constanza from ‘Seinfeld’ wearing a robe and a crown on his head walking down the street.
Bill Roper: That explains a lot. Those stories always read a lot like “this is what I’d be doing if I wasn’t being dumped off the book”. Sort of like PAD’s final Hulk story that way…
Luigi Novi: First, Peter quit. He wasn’t “dumped.” Second, I don’t see anything in that issue in which Peter indicated what he’d do if he weren’t leaving.
I believe being told that if you want to continue on the book, you have to write “Hulk smash” (which I think Peter had been fairly clear about his opinion of) can be constructively considered as being “dumped” even if he was the one who officially “quit”.
As to your other point, I thought that the entire final issue of PAD’s Hulk was a summary of future aborted plotlines. It makes me sad when I read the capsule and realize what we might have gotten…
Byrne’s just sore because PAD took his abortion of a Supergirl and turned it into a character worth reading about.
I’m not a big DC person, so I haven’t read generations. I’m sure it’s fun, but I’m not big on Bats and Supes these days.
Just chiming in for no apparent reason. I like Byrne. I like David. They’ve both done some stuff I still re-read to this day and have projects that hold my attention coming out each month. They have also both done stuff that made me do a double take at the credits page. I enjoyed Chapter One to the extent that compared to the Spidey crap available at the time (after Untold Tales), C1 was fun. Genesis was a misfire like Perez’s War of the Gods and I have a hard time blaming Byrne for it. I love Generations and keep hoping for Byrne to go back and continue NextMen. And I think he needs to write another horror novel because Fear Book and Whipping Boy are still helluva good reads! As for David, I was let down by the Supergirl series and I gave that sucker TWO years to get my interest. That was when I had more expendable cash and the books were a little cheaper. Haunted was just sad. The Hulk was OVERALL well done but it had some misses. Young Justice started and ended strong. But then there is Captain Marvel. That is a wonderful piece of work. PAD has shown he has really outgrown that annoying habit of losing character to tell a joke like in his earlier works (including ST novels). My main complaint is the lack of Chriss Cross since I have followed that guy since Milestone. Anyway, I would worry about this “feuding” if it caused problems with their work. A panel here or there or a letters page (remember those”) comment doesn’t worry me. Bendis vents in his Powers Letters Pages and Miller used to rant on and on in his Sin City columns (now THAT is someone who needs to get back to something!). Maybe they both just need fully creatored owned books they can vent in the backs of. And if PAD does that in Searchers then sorry. I don’t read it and would like to check out a TPB or two if they exist. Anyway, thanks for listening.
Geez Zhen, do you have trouble walking around? What with your head so far up Byrne’s ášš and all
Zhen didn’t say anything sycophantic towards Byrne. It’s okay to like Byrne’s work. A great many people have, over the years, and I’ve been one of them at times. I’m not fond of his current ‘exposition theatre’ style, and I dread the idea of a Byrne run on JLA with every fiber of my being, but that doesn’t make me an enemy of Byrne’s any more than it makes Zhen a bootlick that he’s interested in the work to come. “We shall see” is hardly ášškìššìņg.
“I’m not a big DC person, so I haven’t read generations. I’m sure it’s fun, but I’m not big on Bats and Supes these days.”
BLASPHEMY!!!
It is the greatest serie since… since…the Crew a few weeks ago. 😉
“Geez Zhen, do you have trouble walking around? What with your head so far up Byrne’s ášš and all”
If you really think that, then you obviously never read my posts to Byrne telling him how awfull it was when he was using his zip-a -tone effect on Namor, ot how his work usually is better when inked by someone else.
He does not like it, but he still did not ban me from the boards…. yet. 😉
I just thought that this whole thread was nothing more then a cheap attack on John for no apparent reasons.
Noext time John makes a cheap move against Peter, I will be sure to let him know.
Unlike what someone mentioned earlier, I have no power to dictate what Peter posts. I think she read a lot lore in my post then what was actually on the screen.
I cannot dictate anything her, on the Byrne board, or on any other board for that matter.
All I can do is make a plea.
Don’t you find it sad seing what is supposed to be grown Men throwing each other stones as if they were still in 3rd grade.
I know I do.
I could almost understand if this was Peter answering to an attack by Byrne. But it was not even close to that.
Byrne can now lock and delete threads on the boards dedicated to HIM.
So what???
The Apocalypse must be near.
“Zhen didn’t say anything sycophantic towards Byrne. It’s okay to like Byrne’s work. A great many people have, over the years, and I’ve been one of them at times. I’m not fond of his current ‘exposition theatre’ style, and I dread the idea of a Byrne run on JLA with every fiber of my being, but that doesn’t make me an enemy of Byrne’s any more than it makes Zhen a bootlick that he’s interested in the work to come. “We shall see” is hardly ášškìššìņg.”
Thnk you.
I love some of what John did (Cap, X-Men, FF, Generations etc)and hate some of what he did (Next Men, Namor, his second She-Hulk run etc).
The same goes for Peter(liked Hulk, X-factor, Sachs & Violents etc) (hate Supergirl, Young Justice, etc).
How can I hate and love both of their work sometimes?? Simple. Sometimes I think they do a wonderfull job, sometimes I think they do a lousy job.
I guess I am enough of a fan to be honest with the work as opposed to having blinders and blindly worship and love everything they do no matter how poor/rushed/uninspired/etc it seems to have been done.
If I think it is great, I will say so.
If I think it stinks, I will say so.
If being a fan always giving a creator an ego boost by telling him how a genius he is even if we see them produce poor work, then I guess that I am not a fan.
If they need an ego boost, let them hire themselves a cheerleading team.
If they want an honest opinion of their work, then I will be there.
Does it mean that what I say is fact all that I say is the absolute truth??? Absolutely not. Everything I say is nothing more then my opinion. Nothing more. Nothing less. Unless of course I quote someone…. but you get the idea.
I have my good days and I have my bad days when I might be too hard in my comments.
But wether I am too hard or not at the time, it always reamins that it is my honest opinion.
Take it for what it is… nothing more.
I didn’t see anything sycophantic in what Zhen said, and I agree with what he just said above.
“…We forgot that that site was nothing more than an uncritical source of propagandist aggrandizement for Byrne. God forbit actually debate and dissent be allowed.” – Posted by Luigi Novi @ 08/02/2003 01:26 PM
It is called the “John Byrne Message Board.” That, and it originated from a board on a site called the “John Byrne Fan Site.”
The idea is for fans of John Byrne to discuss and debate topics that relate to the man, but not to pick fights with him.
Anyway, I don’t see why you would want to post on his site if you don’t like John Byrne.
I like PAD’s work. I like JB’s work. I think Erik Larsen has done some nice stuff, and while I am not a big fan of his work, I think he’s ok for the most part. I post on their sites (Barely, in Larsen’s case) because I want to discuss matters that concern comics with these creators of comics.
I do not post on the message boards that belong to, are are about creators I do not care for.
It just makes sense. I mean, what’s the point?
I gotta add, I think it’s funny that invoking JB’s name has once more led to a flurry of messages. For someone that is supposed to be so unpopular anymore, people really seem interested in what he has to say, and want to garner his attention.
Anyway, “Fallen Angel” #2 should be out soon. I can’t wait to see what’s next! 🙂
Matt Hawes
COMICS UNLIMITED
654-B E. Diamond Avenue
Evansville, Indiana 47711
Just like Paul Anthony Llossas, I’d like to know where this PAD and JB bashing stems from.
This is only my guess, but I think Byrne has carried a grudge from the time of Alpha Flight #12, when he felt that PAD ruined the ending of that comic somehow at a convention. Byrne has attacked PAD ever since, and PAD gives it right back to him
Just like Paul Anthony Llossas, I’d like to know where this PAD and JB bashing stems from.
This is only my guess, but I think Byrne has carried a grudge from the time of Alpha Flight #12, when he felt that PAD ruined the ending of that comic somehow at a convention. Byrne has attacked PAD ever since, and PAD gives it right back to him
>>
As the Doctor said, “Never guess — unless you have to. There’s too much uncertainty in the universe as it is.”
I don’t see why people want to know the root of a personal disagreement between two men. I’m sure there are people out there you don’t particularly care for, right? In fact, it’s possible that JB and PAD are *both* right about each other (in that, we all have “bad” traits — our friends tend to like us either despite those traits or even because of them, “bad traits” being subjective and all).
The Hulk movie arrives in Italy on August 29, and Panini comics editors thought the Byrne-Garney version of Hulk was much closer to the movie Hulk than the Peter David one
Well, it was. The Byrne Garney stuff was the mindless Hulk rampaging around.
It also sold for crap. I wasn’t interested in writing those stories because I knew they’d sell for crap.
And now all fans seem to talk about is the film’s disappointing box office take. So, y’know…do the math.
PAD
“This is only my guess, but I think Byrne has carried a grudge from the time of Alpha Flight #12, when he felt that PAD ruined the ending of that comic somehow at a convention. Byrne has attacked PAD ever since, and PAD gives it right back to him.” – Posted by Frank Cooper @ 08/04/2003 07:28 AM
Serious question, Frank: PAD and JB have a definite past together, and so there’s a reason for their animosity toward one another. But, why do you have such a grudge against JB that you constantly dog on him? Is it just because of something he said in response to you on a message board?
If you don’t care for his attitude, fine. But, I think this vendetta of yours is unhealthy. Do as you please, I guess, but sometimes you seem as obsessed as Kurt Busiek’s ex-pal that dedicated web pages to haunting the guy.
Seriously, do you think anything positive will result from your attacks on JB? Is there an end result that you are shooting for, or do you just receive satisfaction from deriding the man?
Just curious.
If it’s your idea of fun, go ahead, but it seems like a waste of energy that could be put to better use.
Matt Hawes
COMICS UNLIMITED
654-B E. Diamond Avenue
Evansville, Indiana 47711
The root stems partly from the Alpha Flight business mentioned above. But the real problem, I suspect, stems from when John quit “She-Hulk.” He blamed his departure squarely on editor Bobbie Chase, saying she had violated agreements over his creative freedom. And Bobbie was being crucified by the fans on line and in CBG. And in those days, Marvel policy was a strict “no comment” in such matters (which Byrne knew) and so Bobbie couldn’t defend herself.
I considered Bobbie a dear friend and, rather than let her twist in the wind, I publicized the simple truth: That Byrne had quit off She-Hulk because there was a throwaway bit of business in a She-Hulk comic written by someone other than Byrne in which She-Hulk is shown snapping off razors in a bathtub in a futile attempt to shave her leg hair. Bobbie thought it was a cute bit and let it go through. Byrne went ballistic and resigned.
Keep in mind the context of the time: Rick Veitch had just quit off “Swamp Thing” because of the whole balls-up over his already approved/subsequently dumped Jesus-related story. And fans were likening the two. My contention was that there was lightyears difference between Rick having an entire story he’d already written (involving Swamp Thing being the cross upon which Jesus was crucified, no less) and had approved suddenly rejected when it was ready to see print…and John quitting over She-Hulk’s leg-hair.
John tried to write in a rebuttal to CBG, but fans realized that it still boiled down to She-Hulk’s leg hair. It took the heat off Bobbie, made John look petty, and that’s pretty much what started it.
PAD
And I’d still like to know how you managed to convince Byrne to do the back art on you BUT I DIGRESS compilation.
Sorry for being confused here but why was someone else writing SHE-HULK? I thought Byrne was the writer…
Peter; I was under the impression that you liked Hulk movie.
But now are you saying that it was bad because it was the mindless rampaging Hulk like what Byrne did??
Strange.
And what was the point to ruin the ending of Alpha Flight #12??
It cannot be to teach him a lesson because of the She-Hulk incident because it happened years BEFORE that.
So what was to gain in doing that exept to piss him off??
And for what reason?? Did he spoil a Hulk ending before and it was payback time??
Logan,
If memory serves, the razor bit was in a She-Hulk graphic novel that was published at the time, not the actual series (which, as you say, Byrne was writing at the time).
TWL
The root stems partly from the Alpha Flight business mentioned above. But the real problem, I suspect, stems from when John quit “She-Hulk.” He blamed his departure squarely on editor Bobbie Chase, saying she had violated agreements over his creative freedom. And Bobbie was being crucified by the fans on line and in CBG. And in those days, Marvel policy was a strict “no comment” in such matters (which Byrne knew) and so Bobbie couldn’t defend herself.
I considered Bobbie a dear friend and, rather than let her twist in the wind, I publicized the simple truth: That Byrne had quit off She-Hulk because there was a throwaway bit of business in a She-Hulk comic written by someone other than Byrne in which She-Hulk is shown snapping off razors in a bathtub in a futile attempt to shave her leg hair. Bobbie thought it was a cute bit and let it go through. Byrne went ballistic and resigned.>>
From what John Byrne has said on the subject, I thought there was more to it than that. There was a miniseries published that had the leg-shaving scene, which Byrne thought was absurd (he listed many reasons why this was the case). He pointed out this (along with several other flat-out factual errors, like the tribe Wyatt Wingfoot was from) to Ms. Chase and instead of the changes to the miniseries being made, changes were made to *his* copy to bring it in line with the miniseries (even though he was given ostensibly complete control over the character).
Obviously, this was his version of events, but it’s not been disputed to my knowledge. If this was the case, I wouldn’t blame him for “getting ballistic.” (Marvel apparently had no issue with his as he returned once Ms. Chase left.)
<>
It wasn’t just “because of leg hair.” Many creators would have quit over similar circumstances. Would you have been keen if your copy in the Hulk had been changed against your knowledge to conform with a Hulk miniseries?
What made John Byrne “look petty” was the erroneous implication that he quit “because of leg hair.” And, thanks to comic book post office, people thought that *he* had written the leg-shaving scene and quit when it was KOed. So, yes, I can understand why this would annoy him.
And I can understand why you would use your column to defend a friend (and your then-boss), but it obviously had consequences.
This, though, didn’t seem to fester for long, as IIRC, you mentioned there being an issue involving Erik Larsen’s depiction of you and John Byrne in an issue of Savage Dragon.
Hey thanks Tim!
But now I don’t understand why would he be upset at broken razors? Makes no sense.
I don’t know why X-Men: The Hidden Years was cancelled, but considering what a curmudgeon Byrne is said to be, I could imagine it was cancelled just to get Byrne away from Marvel.
There’s a certain amount of weirdness around the cancellation of The Hidden Years, although at its core was Marvel culling the X-line. Every book that was selling below a certain point was cancelled, and JB’s THY was well below the cut-off point–only Bishop was selling lower.
The weirdness involves some behind the scenes stuff dealing with a proposed X-Men: The End mini-series to be done by Clairemont and Byrne. From Byrne’s account, Marvel tried to hold the final issues of THY hostage to get him to agree to The End… those issues ended up being published after Marvel realized that they had already paid for them.
I don’t know why X-Men: The Hidden Years was cancelled, but considering what a curmudgeon Byrne is said to be, I could imagine it was cancelled just to get Byrne away from Marvel. YJ was cancelled to make way for Teen Titans, and Defenders was cancelled for so many reasons I don’t even want to get into it.
X-Men: the Hidden Tears was NOT canceled because sales. Not by any means could it have been cancelled for lack of sales without a vertiable slieu of other then-current titles being canceled with it, and/or before it.
It was canceled shortly before the Morrison/Casey revamp because of politics. The Powers That Be believed that a series set in the past would confuse readers. They were steadfast in the belief that readers would be confused with things like Cyclops and Jean Grey not being married and rot like that.
Idiots. I think it was Joe Quesada but I cannot say for sure… so take it for gospel yet.
X-Men: the Hidden Tears was NOT canceled because sales. Not by any means could it have been cancelled for lack of sales without a vertiable slieu of other then-current titles being canceled with it, and/or before it.
I’d agree that it wasn’t cancelled due to low sales (it was above Marvel’s usual cut-off level), but when the X-Cull was announced, it became clear that sales were the criteria Marvel was using as no other criteria made the slightest bit of sense… even if they weren’t admitting it. The lower-selling of the X-books got the axe, the higher-selling ones got a reprieve.
It does make sense. If you’re writing an X-book (or Spider-Man or Batman or Superman), then you *should* be pulling in better than average numbers. Same thing when Chuck Dixon’s MARVEL KNIGHTS was cancelled, as it starred three characters regularly appearing in the Top 20… and it’s only pulling in okay numbers. If you’re writing a book for a popular franchise, you are going to be held to a higher standard.
being an issue involving Erik Larsen’s depiction of you and John Byrne in an issue of Savage Dragon.
In one of the early Image books…Either Spawn or Dragon, there were 2 KKK members called Petey and Johnny clearly meant to be PAD and Byrne…both who had made comments not glowing about the intial Image press releases.
I had actually never noticed (in the more public areas) anything between Byrne and PAD with Larsen..McFarlane certainly, but Larsen always seemed to be the small guy standing behind the big gang leader trying to act tough..trying to pick a fight with people who we’ren’t paying attention to him.
But now I don’t understand why would he be upset at broken razors? Makes no sense.
His complaint was that the joke made She-Hulk look stupid (“Why would she keep trying to shave after the first razor broke?”) and it ‘violated’ his ‘rules’ about her (“her hair doesn’t grow. Don’t ask me how the hair on her head got there or about her hair anywhere else.”)
I think both of these are overreactions to a simple joke.
But now I don’t understand why would he be upset at broken razors? Makes no sense.
His complaint was that the joke made She-Hulk look stupid (“Why would she keep trying to shave after the first razor broke?”) and it ‘violated’ his ‘rules’ about her (“her hair doesn’t grow. Don’t ask me how the hair on her head got there or about her hair anywhere else.”)
I think both of these are overreactions to a simple joke. >>
Did you read my previous post? Byrne “overreacted” to having his copy changed to conform to the mini when he was told that he was in charge of the character. I can understand perhaps why this was done (under deadline pressure, it might have been easier to change his work rather than what was already out the door — but I won’t speculate). However, I can also understand why he bolted (it also involved the then-editor in chief).
Again, it’s more complex than you wish to make it. His actions were also more justified than you wish to make it.
(It’s also not that incongruous to think that the hair on her head grows but not the hair on her legs.)
Ser; don’t pay attention to Cooper concerning John Byrne.
He post topics after topics on the JoeQ board bashing John.
**Peter; I was under the impression that you liked Hulk movie.
But now are you saying that it was bad because it was the mindless rampaging Hulk like what Byrne did??**
Where did PAD say it was a bad movie? He said people were talking about the disappointing take. He didn’t say a word about the quality of the movie.
I enjoy some of Byrne’s work as well as Peter’s and Erik’s. I just don’t understand why these talented creators dislike each other so much. You’d think there would be enough common ground there that they would be friends. They would get so much more out of life if they allowed themselves to exchange ideas. As an artist, I’m always interested in what others have to say, even if I disagree. Maybe there’s a story idea there somewhere. Frankly, I have no use for hate. I find it to be a waste of energy better spent elsewhere. Can’t we all just get along?
Sorry, I couldn’t resist!
“X-Men: the Hidden Tears was NOT canceled because sales. Not by any means could it have been cancelled for lack of sales without a vertiable slieu of other then-current titles being canceled with it, and/or before it.”
It was the lowest selling X-Men title ever, was losing sales at around 500 – 1000 a month and was based on stories 30 years old. Yeah, some other books were selling worse, but they didn’t have X-Men in the title. It was sales, and the fact that it was painfully reader-unfriendly, could not have been repackacked in trade paperback form (as it was a never ending storyline that just seemed to go on and on).
Were there things other than sales involved? Yep. The fact that no one working on the book had a plan to make sales go up, and the fact that all of the “continuity focused” comics from Marvel were dying on the vine. But as I have said in a private letter to a poster, if the comic was selling 40,000 or more a month, none of the other factors would have applied.
The days when you can do a comic book series based on continuity holes set in the past is long gone. I love Roy Thomas as much as anyone, but you don’t see a stampede to bring back All Star Squadron.
It wasn’t just “because of leg hair.” Many creators would have quit over similar circumstances.
Actually, I’m thinking no, they wouldn’t.
Would you have been keen if your copy in the Hulk had been changed against your knowledge to conform with a Hulk miniseries?
Not remotely analagous. No one was changing John’s material without his knowledge.
PAD
Forgive me if I am wrong about this, but as to the whole Alpha Flight deal: Wasn’t Peter still part of the sales division when that happened? And wasn’t it part of his job to SELL comics? I suppose it is anyone’s opinion as to whether revealing the climax of the story would sell more, but then again, maybe some people picked it up just to see if he was right or not. Plus, Marvel had been running in-house ads warning people that one of the team WOULD die at the end of the story.
Peter…could you explain what it was that made John Byrne quit She-Hulk? It makes no sense to quit just because she’s shaving her legs. Please elaborate.