I picked up a copy of the Marvel Encyclopedia: The Incredible Hulk, which is the OFFICIAL (emphasis theirs) Marvel Guide to the Incredible Hulk that gives us “the people behind the Hulk, from Stan Lee and Jack Kirby to the writers and artists who have shaped the character throughout the years, this is the story of the creators behind the myth.”
Out of curiosity, I checked the index. I offer the following statistics without comment.
Number of pages Stan Lee is mentioned on: 24.
Jack Kirby: 14
Ang Lee: 11
Bruce Jones: 9
Dale Keown: 8
Herb Trimpe: 6
Axel Alonso: 5
Bill Jemas: 3
John Byrne: 2
Todd McFarlane: 1
Peter David: 1
Roy Thomas: 0
Sal Buscema: 0
Al Milgrom: 0
Bill Mantlo: 0
Len Wein: 0
Bob Harras: 0
Bobbie Chase: 0
PAD
• 
Herb Trimpe gets 8 mentions and Roy Thomas gets none?? Someone’s on crack.
Dale Keown’s art was great, but compared to the others on that list and his length of time on the series, he doesn’t rate that many mentions.
So let me see if I got this straight: You’re mentioned the same number of times as the lying hypocrite retard penciler whose career stardom began on that title, and then lured away Dale Keown with the argument that his career wouldn’t go anywhere on the title,
one time less than the writer/artist who acted like a total prìçk when you left the title, and whose own run on the book, complete with his trademark inability to resist putting himself in the story, tanked,
ten times less than the director whose ridiculous split-screens and other dumb scene transitions helped make the movie of the character a piece of šhìŧ,
and several times less than a whole bunch of other people who were either on the book for a fraction of the time you were, or who had little or nothing to do with the book’s success at all?
What fûçkìņg bûllšhìŧ.
I should note that most of Dale’s mentions are credits for illustrations of his that appear in the book.
PAD
I will say that this infuriates me to no end. Mr. David is the one who made the Hulk my favorite character. The only problems I had for the movie is that I thought it took away some of the things Peter did on the book. You know the more I hear about Marvel the more I don’t like it. And I’m the crowd that loves Ultimates/Ultimate X-Men/AMS/Ultimate Spider-man. Could someone tell Mr. Quesada/Jemass to shut up and let the writers write and give credit where credit is due.
Couple of words only..
“Interesting choices”.
Just to give some perspective on the “Encyclopedia”‘s author, Kit Kiefer…
One of the people Kiefer thanks in his forward (the people he claims taught him all he needed to know about comics) is a woman who works in my office.
To give you an idea of how knowledgeable his friends are, this woman once claimed that “Frankenstein” was written on the same evening as “Dracula,” and that Percy Bysshe Shelley wrote “Varney the Vampire.”
(Note that Dracula was published in 1898… eighty years or so after Frankenstein was… and the vampire story the woman was thinking of was “Vampyre”… which *was* written on the same night as Frankenstein, but not by Percy Bysshe — he didn’t write anything on that evening.)
Another great thing was her saying, “Yeah, I used to work for a horror fanzine. That’s how I know all this stuff.” 🙂 I laugh now when I picture her dishing out all her Hulk “knowledge” to Kit Kiefer…
Peter (or anyone else): Out of curiosity, how is the DK Hulk book? Is it more balanced?
–Adam
By the by, PAD, lots of folks over on the Hulk Message Board, including myself, have been giving the Encyclopedia the thrashing it deserves, and warning people not to buy it. (One poster even did the same thing you did, breaking down it down by index to show all the glaring omissions.)
(Sal Buscema’s omission particularly had many fans hot under the collar.)
Tom DeFalco’s guide, meanwhile, in comparison, is quite inclusive. Very nice.
Mind if we comment?
What’s odd, from what I’ve seen of the book, is that it gives a pretty good amount of space to the PAD Era and related characters. There is something of a sense of perspective about the Hulk’s history that is missing from the totally-in-the-now DC books about Supes, Batman and the JLA.
So how could they forget the writer. Oh, wait. I know how. I just keep hoping that someone at Marvel wakes up about this attitude problem towards talented independent-minded writers.
Peter, did you read Tom DeFalco’s Hulk: The Incredible Guide? If so, what did you think of it?
Anyone besides me wishes that maybe Marvel shouldn’t of came out of bankrupcy? I’m rather tired of the raping of Marvel history and characters that the current TPTB are doing. Whats next? An offical history of the Xmen that barely mentions Chris Claremont?
Like I told you in Philly, the book is crap.
It’s what happens when you have Just Some Guy write about a topic that he admits knowing little to nothing about…
The best is when he talks about the cool action figures from the 1970’s were like Mego or something and then the illustration is for the movie toys.
Out of curiosity, I checked the index. I offer the following statistics without comment.
The fact that you would take the time to do this is comment enough itself. Someones feelings hurt?
Tom’s book is extremely thorough and highly recommended (and not just because he says my run on the book is his favorite.) He does a decade by decade breakdown of what was going on with the Hulk, replete with copious visuals and descriptions of all the key players.
PAD
No mentions of Sal Buscema or Len Wein and only one of Peter David?! The omission of Mr. Buscema in particular makes me angry. He’s always been ignored in comics history in favor of his brother John, but he really made The Incredible Hulk his own. I met the man at the Heroes Con a couple weeks ago and he was very gracious and self-deprecating. When I told him how much I idolized him growing up and what his work (particularly on Nova and Rom) ment to me, he said something to the effect of “Phshaw, my brother John was the real talent.” He probably wouldn’t even care that they left him out. But I do. He is a great guy and deserves more credit than he’s gotten. But then, Marvel has a history of brushing off the contributions of their creators. But, then, I’m preaching to the choir.
The fact that you would take the time to do this is comment enough itself. Someones feelings hurt?
Hmmm… given that PAD spent over a decade of his life writing the green goliath probably means he has just a smidge of interest in it… and other writers of the mag… so I think this is excusable, don’t you?
Travis
I happen to have both of them and there is no comparison.
The writing in Kiefer’s book reminds me of something that a highschooler trying to get to a thousand words and shooting for a “C” would have written.
Leaving PAD, Mantlo, and Sal Buscema out of any book concerning the Hulk speaks for itself.
Mark B.
“(One poster even did the same thing you did, breaking down it down by index to show all the glaring omissions.)”
Yes, that was I. I kinda felt bad about doing that afterward. But, now that PAD has done it himself, I feel a little better.
It’s not just omissions like this that make that “encyclopedia” a waste of money. There are mistakes aplenty, also. For example: look at the picture in the TV section supposedly showing the “Married” episode. The caption indicates that it is from that episode, even calling the actress “Mariette Hartley”. Actually, the photo is from the original pilot and the actress is Susan Sullivan.
And, of course, the faux-hip style of disrespecting everything pre-Marvel 2001 is also annoying. I honestly can’t bring myself to read this “encyclopedia” in its entirety.
Mr. Defalco’s book is much much better. Very inclusive and just fun to read. Although, in all fairness, it also has its share of mistakes.
No Sal Buscema and only one Peter David?
I’m really not making a Hulk hoje when I say this just brings blood to my eyes. I know there’s more important things in the world, but for Marvel not to toss that “Encylcopedia” back at it’s writer and tell him to get it right is just…just….oooooooh! It makes me so angry!
Sorry, Mr. David, that they’ve chosen to insult you and Mr. Buscema in such a way.
So, 12 years of service gets you a single page.
That’s respect.
Axel Alonso gets 5 pages?!? What the Hëll for?
“Um… I told Bruce to… um … write…”
Ugh.
Roy Thomas, Sal Buscema, Bill Mantlo, Len Wein (The guy who introduced Wolverine to the world in the Hulk comics!!), and others have NO mention?!?
This is insane!
Please tell me that at least one of the three mentions for Bill Jemas was counting the credits for that book!
Seriously, this bites. PAD can be said to have saved the title as much as Bruce Jones might take credit for doing these days. Herb Trimpe deserved more of a mention, and one other BIG omission:
Where is Marie Severin????
Er….replace “hoje” with “joke” and we’ll have an actual sentence from me. Whoops.
The fact that you would take the time to do this is comment enough itself. Someones feelings hurt?
Not especially, no. I don’t need mentions in a book to feel validation for my work on the series. I am rather annoyed, though, at the lack of attention given to Len, Roy, Sal, et al.
PAD
Where is Marie Severin????
She’s there, actually. Three times.
PAD
Ok, Marie’s there. Good.
But I forgot someone, myself: What about Steve Ditko?
May I recommend the CBG retrospective? A much more useful book, with paragraph synopses of every issue of anything with “Hulk” in the title, plus the Defenders and other major Hulk appearances.
Those CBG books really are pretty cool! I wish they were a tad cheaper, but I think they are swell!
Matthew Hawes
Comics Unlimited
654-B E. Diamond Ave.
Evansville, IN. 47711
The appeal of an artist is highly subjective. While I agree Sal Buscema should have had more mentions, if only because of his tenure on the book, I honestly didn’t care for his art. Each to their own, but I found his stuff to be almost charicaturesque, with ridiculously-drawn mouths. Give me Byrne over Buscema any time.
Shane: The fact that you would take the time to do this is comment enough itself. Someones feelings hurt?
Luigi Novi: Given that he listed seven other people who were not mentioned at all (Roy Thomas, Sal Buscema, Al Milgrom, Bill Mantlo, Len Wein, Bob Harras, and Bobbie Chase), I’d say his comment was balanced.
Well, Johnny B is certainly in a *mood* lately. Responding to this very thread of PAD’s, he wrote:
“I always check new books about comics to see if I am mentioned. I have never compiled a list of how many times I was mentioned — especially not compared to anyone else! And the Award for Most Pathetic Human Being of the Week goes to. . .”
Apparently mockery in an issue of Captain Marvel is bad, but mockery anywhere else is hunky dory…
What’s odd, from what I’ve seen of the book, is that it gives a pretty good amount of space to the PAD Era and related characters
No, it doesn’t. Perhaps you’re referring Tom DeFalco’s book. I highly recommend DeFalco’s book and the “CBG Presents the Hulk” book as both are very respectful of PAD’s run on the title. And it’s no coincidence that neither were published by Marvel. The Hulk Encycopedia, on the other hand, was.
I discussed the PAD-related aspects of the Hulk encyclopedia with a friend of mine and here is some of that
PAD is mentioned by name exactly once in the book’s 200 pages, in a list of the “Top Ten Hulk Comics.” Only one comic of this book’s Top Ten is by PAD: Issues #367-368 with artist Sam Keith. WTF?!?! Only one story on the top ten and it’s THAT one? Why? I don’t even remember what they’re about. What about Future Imperfect? #417-420? #467? The End?
And here’s the exact quote of the one time PAD’s mentioned in the book: “Peter David’s stories [#367-368] stick to the white line, avoid the ditches and give plenty of room for the Hulk to do what he does best.” Talk about dámņìņg with faint praise.
But hey, the book does make reference to the Hulk comics of the late 80’s and 90’s which were exclusively by PAD. Let’s see what the book has to say about that era:
“Now is not the time to get into everything the Hulk endured in the late 80’s and early 90’s. Suffice it to say he went through the whole Lord of the Rings trilogy, a couple of Star Wars movies, the Godfather saga, Lost Weekend and A Beautiful Mind, with snatches of Monsters Inc. thrown in.”
and
“Maybe the best idea would be for the Hulk to be Tivo’d, so you could immediately skip the pathetic-loser Banner stuff and the messy psychological spills, and just have nothing but end-to-end Hulking.”
and
“Hulk comics of the 80’s and 90’s played up the ‘psycho’ in the psychodrama, sending the Hulk through incarnation as though he was Shirley MacLaine played on 78. These comics, like a lot of Marvel comics from that era, drifted a little too far afield. They were guilty of only one thing: they weren’t the Hulk.”
Marvel revisionist history at its worst.
The book is shrinkwrappped, otherwise I would have looked through it first and never bought the #@$%ing thing.
Corey
ten times less than the director whose ridiculous split-screens and other dumb scene transitions helped make the movie of the character a piece of šhìŧ
Different strokes for different folks, Luigi. I liked the movie; not going to say I loved it, but I’d go see it again (and probably will). The visual style added to the appeal for me. Yeah, that comment will probably gather some jeers, but not everyone’s movie experience is the same. As to the book, based on what is being said about it here I might leaf through it in the bookstore, if possible, but it won’t exactly be a purchasing priority.
Mr. David,
reading the quotes above, I would say that you haven’t gotten the respect from the Hulk book that you’re due. While it’s commendable that you’re not interested in your own mentions, but rather those of others, your length of contribution to the character far outweighs that of any other creator (with the possible exception of Sal Buscema) – that is deserving of more than a derogatory mention, and a reductio ad absurditum of your complex, novel stories into a “too much psychobabble” soundbite by a New Marvel acolyte attempting to sell their “new Hulk” books. I can’t see how your stories are any more “far afield” than, say, Rocket Raccoon. I mean, really!
Forgive me for saying so but…..
I don’t know what is more pathetic.
Counting the number of time people are mentioned in a book?????
Or posting a list online about it????
Someone obviously has too much time on his hands.
I began reading comics in the early ’70s and I must say that I loved reading stories by Bill Mantlo on The Hulk, Rom, Marvel-Team-Up, and Iron Man.
I especially loved reading comics with the art of Sal Buscema, especially Nova, Marvel Team-Up, Rom, Amazing Spider-Man, and especially Incredible Hulk.
Favorite Mantlo/Buscema story would have to be Incredible Hulk #250, where Bruce is cured of being the Hulk, and is forced to irradiate The Silver Surfer with gamma radiation so that he can break the barrier confining him to Earth.
Second favorite would have to be “Whatever Happened to The 3-D Man” from Incredible Hulk in 1980.
Belated thanks to both creators for the priceless memories and years of happy reading.
‘Nuff Said.
Steve Chung
Forgive me for saying so but…..
I don’t know what is more pathetic.
Counting the number of time people are mentioned in a book?????
Or posting a list online about it????
Oooh! I know the answer to this one!…
Going to someone’s personal web page and whining about what they want to talk about.
Someone obviously has too much time on his hands.
Pot, meet Mr. Kettle
Having looked at both books, I have to say that the Encyclopedia falls VERY short of the DK version.
Also, one of the versions that the comic book adaptation is being printed has only Ultimate and current comic stories printed in it. What, no classic tales or stuff from maybe a decade ago?
Seems to me like Marvel doesn’t want fans to know of past stuff when it comes to comics, just what’s happening now and of the origins.
By the way, anyone else see the 60 Minutes 2 repeat of Stan Lee and Ari Avad that was during the taping of Daredevil?
I just want to give props to Mantlo and Sal Buscema, their run on the hulk was when I first started collecting Hulk, I enjoyed their stories and they made me a fan. David’s run is my favourite but Bill and Sal are one of the first people whose names I remebered. I just used to read comics without worrying about who wrote what, but one day I was enjoying a issue of Hulk so much that I stopped and checked the name of the writer, it was Bill Mantlo.
May I just get a bit meta here and more than a bit political…?
This is exactly what’s wrong with American society today and I mean that with all the implications it deserves.
With consolidation and the obscenely unequal distribution of wealth in this country, everyone is working for a corporation. A corporation can not feel appreciation for what a person has done for them, only other people can do that.
This is highly visible because PAD gets to sign his work but how many other people put in 12 years or more for a company and then get tossed aside, not for anything they did but because the company is “moving in another direction” or how many of us have suffered in silence while “superiors” took credit for our work.
It’s sad to say but I think what this really means is beware, all those who are thinking of writing their favorite characters. This is what work-for-hire means. No matter how much value you create for the company, no matter how much you add to the character’s mythology, no matter whether your work inspires those in other media (where the real money is) to take an interest in the property, some a-hole can still snap his fingers and take all the credit away from you.
>sigh<
Of course, with even Stan Lee being forced to sue Marvel, what chance does Peter David have?
Sorry for beating the dead horse but I meant to add to the previous post…
My point about this being what’s wrong with American society is that people no longer feel like doing a good job and serving the company loyally will be rewarded or even recognized. So is it any surprise that we feel disconnected from each other? Is it any surprise that otherwise rational Americans cheered a war with a country that hadn’t attacked us over what everyone knew was a BS story about WMD? When else can we feel like we’re a part of anything?
The Hulk sucks. That was always my opinion, anyway (I kind of liked the Gray Hulk in the early Avengers, though).
I remember asking a co-worker in the comics distribution business what his favorite book was. He said Hulk. I laughed and asked him “no, seriously”. He was serious. I snorted. Figured he was a moron.
Being much larger than I am and unafraid of using that fact, he made me read the current issue.
“Hey,” I said, “this isn’t the Hulk, this is GOOD!” Avid fan for the rest of David’s run.
If Marvel thinks that wasn’t the Hulk, I’d have to agree with them. It was too good to be the Hulk. WAAAAAAYYYYYY too good.
Well, as much as I love the Marvel hardcovers, I think it’s safe to say I won’t waste money picking up the useless Encyclopedias.
But regardless of how poorly written they are, they can’t change how much I loved the Mantlo/Buscema stories, or any of Peter’s stories, or Paul Jenkins’s stories. And even though they’re overpraised, I really like Bruce Jones’s run on the book.
Bottom line- no overpriced promo pamphlet can change the fun I’ve had reading Hulk stories over the years.
By the way, I hate to bring up a sore point, but how is Bill Mantlo these days? Has he ever shown any improvement? And I’m glad to see Sal’s in good spirits these days. He’s a fantastic artist.
Let me start by saying that the Hulk was never on my faves list of Marvels–I’m a Spidey fan thruout me–but Bill Mantlo and Sal Buscema did the DEFINITIVE Hulk run–I love Peter’s run a LOT (The XFactor and Punisher meetings were hoots!!) but we first saw the “Intelligent Hulk” under Bill/Sal for example. One poster’s opinion was that Sal’s artwork was grotesque—I would like to know whose art he’s comparing that with—most comic artists today
seem to love overdoing the art for the sake of being artsy. Sal was capable of drawing ANY character he got his hands on…Spidey, Hulk, The FF, Nova, Rom, Captain America and ALL the friggin Avengers plus Galactus and Eternity. The fact that this encyclopedia chooses to ignore that long run (the Hulk pardoned by the President in front of all the Marvel Heroes? What a scene.) is a big symptom of what is wrong with comics companies today.
On a lighter note, I just bought The Ultimate Spider-Man pb–love PAD’s take on the origin story and also “Five Minutes”–very good stuff
It’s no surprise that the OFFICIAL Hulk Guide would have so little mention of the key people that, as a whole helped elevate the Hulk and his cast to the great characters that they are today, who were completely ignored or butchered in the OFFICIAL Hulk movie.
Wow, wonder who was behind that screwjob on PAD.
You write a book for 12 years and you get mentioned on ONE FREAKING PAGE?
Jemas gets on 3 pages, and he does nothing but be the CEO of the company.
“I always check new books about comics to see if I am mentioned. I have never compiled a list of how many times I was mentioned — especially not compared to anyone else! And the Award for Most Pathetic Human Being of the Week goes to. . .”
It’s probably safe to assume that John is once again commenting about something he hasn’t actually read (namely the blog entry). Because of course the point of the entry is not how many times I’m mentioned. That’s a simplistic interpretation. It’s that apparently the entire period of the character’s existence between his creation and 2001–in the official recounting of the Hulk’s history–is simply a vast wasteland where no writer of note did anything of note. I mean, jeez, Len Wein created Wolverine in the Hulk. You’d think that alone would warrant Len’s name being brought up.
PAD
I heard someone say that in the guide Peter David’s run on Hulk is actually critisized and described as stupid, is this true? Cuz really anyone that would say that doesn’t have the slightest idea what Hulk was about, nor the concept of good writing, never mind being given the green light to write an Encyclopedia on anything.
Well, it really shouldn’t come as a surprise that PAD, Len Wein and others important in the Hulk’s history are ignored by the “New Marvel”. SOP, after all. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jemas and his cronies edited the book and blue-penciled any real mention of so many people who contributed. Jeez, the Hulk may have joined Dr. Strange, Rom, Silver Surfer and others on the Marvel scrap heap if it weren’t for Peter David. Speaking as a really long-time Marvel fan (Hulk #2 is the first Marvel book I can remember reading), the Peter David era marks the high point of a sometimes great run. So now the powers that be have decreed that PAD didn’t contribute. But as we say in the South, the sun don’t shine on the same dog’s ášš every day. Peter, you have class and talent. Jemas & his buddies have neither. Your day is coming. Wait and see.
\\ May I just get a bit meta here and more than a bit political…?
This is exactly what’s wrong with American society today and I mean that with all the implications it deserves.
With consolidation and the obscenely unequal distribution of wealth in this country, everyone is working for a corporation. A corporation can not feel appreciation for what a person has done for them, only other people can do that. \\
Yes, because individual people never turn their backs on their friends who have done them great services. And of course, corporations aren’t run by “other people.” Let us abandon this madcap postindustrial life and return to a wholesome life on the farm, raising turnips and dying of old age at 40.
Ðámņ capitalism. All it gives us is a standard of living. Ðámņ it.
Well, I’m not surpised.
I have Vol. 1 of the Marvel Encyclopedia, and I must say, it sucks. All it is is an advertisement for the trades they have in print, nothing more. PAD’s stuff is not in print. Nor are any of these other classics. So they’re not in it.
Look in Vol. 1. Look at Spidey. It does not mention that Peter and Mary Jane got married. Look at Daredevil. You can breakdown the history of Matt Murdock they gave exactly into the current stock of TPBs. They mention that he lost his law liscence (Born Again). They never mention how or when he gets it back. They just move on to the next TPB, Kevin Smith’s, over 10 years later.
So, the Hulk thing doesn’t surprise me. They’re making a big shiny ad for their own stuff and selling it for $30. I never felt more gypped by Marvel than when I checked out that book. I shouldn’t have to pay for advertising.
Jordan D. White
http://www.wax-work.com
Corey Tacker: Only one comic of this book’s Top Ten is by PAD: Issues #367-368 with artist Sam Keith.
Luigi Novi: Dale Keown penciled #367, not Sam Keith. (It was his very first issue, in fact.) The only issue Sam Keith ever penciled was #368.
Zhen Dil Oloth: I don’t know what is more pathetic. Counting the number of time people are mentioned in a book? Or posting a list online about it? Someone obviously has too much time on his hands.
Luigi Novi: But somehow, reading it and posting a response to it isn’t, right?
The one thing about the Encyclopedia that appears superior to DeFalco’s book is the cover illustration. I’m not a fan of the that detail-dulling airbrushed look they’ve been using on Ultimate Spidey, but the pose and rendering of the Hulk looks good. By contrast, the foreshortening, rendering and spotting of blacks on the cover of DeFalco’s book leaves something to be desired.