Read it (as have Kathleen and Ariel), liked it overall, had some problems with it.
Spoilers herewith abound in the attached. If you haven’t read the book and intend to, don’t read this thread. That way you’re warned and folks don’t all have to stop and put in the whole invisible line thing.
HIGH POINTS:
We’re starting to get a real idea of why it was smart that Harry was raised by the Dursleys. By his attitudes this book, we get a sense that if he’d spent ten years being raised by a wizarding family, he might be as arrogant as Malfoy by now. Testy, angry, short-tempered with everyone, puffed up by his accomplishments…and thoroughly believable for a fifteen year old who’s done what he’s done. Harry develops enough shadings and layers in this book alone to make up for the fact that just about everyone else in any given book is more interesting than he is.
Hermoine: Is there ANY more patient friend in the WORLD? All the crap he gives her and she hardly ever loses her temper with him. I’ve always liked her; now I adore her.
Weasley: He is our king.
Umbridge: I find myself wondering if she’s related to Sir Umbrage of the Flaming Nether Regions, who was in SIR APROPOS OF NOTHING. I particularly loved her interaction with the teachers, who found wonderful means of thwarting her while pretending to kowtow to her.
The premature graduation of Fred and George: A Hogwarts legend is born. Probably the best sequence in the book.
Dumbledore Kicks Úš: First the ministry’s and then Voldermort’s. About bloody time.
Hogwarts Goes Nuts: We get a real sense of just what a great job Dumbledore and the Faculty does in keeping a lid on the place. Umbridge goes crazy trying to keep up with an entire school of mutinous wizards. Best incident is Peeves endeavoring to loosen a crystal chandelier from its moorings, and a passing Minerva quietly mutters, “It unscrews the other way.”
LOW POINTS:
Pacing and narrative still remains an issue as the books tend to maintain their episodic nature (part of the reason that transferring them to the screen is such a lethal challenge). As a result, the narrative doesn’t build so much as that one thing happens, then another thing happens, and then we’re getting near the end of the school year, better have a threat from You Know Who.
The nature of the threat: So we see Voldermort’s first master plan since he came back, and basically it involves spending an entire year endeavoring to get his hands on a prophecy which is, basically, some exposition. Exposition that actually doesn’t tell him much that he doesn’t already know and doesn’t pose a threat to anyone else. The fact is that if he’d effortlessly gotten his hands on the exposition/prophecy at any point in the book, or even before the book started, it would have had zero impact on the Wizarding world, Harry Potter, Hogwarts, or even the Dursleys. So to have an entire massive battle which results in the demise of a character and Harry carrying guilt feelings over it (and it IS his fault, no matter what Dumbledore told him) when in the grand scheme of things it was basically an audio version of something Voldermort, Dumbledore, and the Death Eaters already knew…it just leaves you shrugging your shoulders. The last hundred pages are certainly well paced, a great read…but in the end you go, “So THAT’S what this is all about? Eh.” Yes, there was an interesting revelation about a supporting character, but at this point that’s all it is: An interesting revelation. It’s not an “Oh my GOD” moment, and for the end to justify the means, that’s what you really need, and it ain’t here.
So…great read, but not quite the sum of its parts.
PAD
• 
We found out about Neville’s parents in book 4 via Dumbledore’s Pensieve 🙂
Ra!
I finished reading the book yesterday. I liked it quite a bit. I normally wouldn’t nitpick, but Peter’s comments about looking at the book from a writer’s perspective had me thinking a bit more critically.
Rowling doesn’t spend as much time explaining every little thing that we see, for instance, if you only read this book, you might have a limited understanding of what an auror does. It seems that at this point, you are expected to have read the other books, although the overall plot is easily understood.
Rowling strayed away from her usual formula a little bit here. We didn’t see halloween or Christmas at Hogwarts, didn’t hear Dumbledore’s end of year speech – (Did Slytherin win the tally of points?), we didn’t see the final quiddich match.
There was much to like here. Moments like when Neville pocketed the wrapper his mother gave him, or the fact that Dumbledore knows all his former students, even calling Valdemort “Tom”.The best moment by far was the exit of Fred and George. I must have re-read that part six times. Who wouldn’t want an exit like that? I didn’t expect to like Luna, but her quiet sincerity, and espescially her last scene, pinning up the list, won me over. It’s possible, at least in my mind, that she’ll be a future love interest for Harry.
My main qubble stylistically is the lists of names that get thrown at the reader. All the members of the Order, all the members of the D.A., plus all the other students. Lists are good, but too many lists, espescially of names, can be confusing.
There was no resolution of the Percy situation, even after Valdemort was proven to be back. Even if Percy didn’t feel apologetic, it should be explained why he didn’t feel apologetic.
What happened to Harry’s broom?
I was surprised that the device of the Thestrals wasn’t used fully, as in having someone witness Sirius’ death, then notice the previously invisible horses.
I was somewhat disappointed in Umbridges lack of “comeuppance”. If she had stayed with the centaurs, we could have imagined some ghastly peril, but she came back and was only in shock. I mean, earlier in the book, she was physically torturing Harry with those lines. For that alone, there should be a big payoff, even if it’s just to see her reaction to Harry being proven right. Fortunately, we at least had Fred and George’s to tell her off successfully.
I wonder about the American versions of these books versus the original UK editions. I know “Sorcerers” stone was changed from “Phiolosopher’s” stone, but I am seeing a lot of “qeues”, and “draughts” in this book, which I wonder if most American parents know how to pronounce, much less define. Someday I’d like to compare the translation to the original, and see what’ s different.
Randall
About Cho Chang – I think that she is one year ahead, so the 6th book may be the last we see her.
Regarding the American vs English editions – I really wish they didn’t make the American editions. Changing Philosopher’s Stone to Sorcerer’s Stone was a real bad idea and possibly the worst of the changes so far.
If someone has the UK edition of this book and gives some examples of places where they think it could have been changed, those of us with the US editions can check.
Neil
Neil Ottenstein writes:
If someone has the UK edition of this book and gives some examples of places where they think it could have been changed, those of us with the US editions can check.
For what it’s worth, I found a website http://www.geocities.com/hpnewsgroup/bookdif.htm that notes the differences between the US and UK editions of the first four Harry Potter books. Aside from the Sorcerer’s Stone/Philosopher’s Stone change, most of them seem to be minor accomodations to local slang or usages typical to different US / UK editions.
(Note that this site doesn’t mention which printings of the US or UK editions are being compared. It’s theoretically possible that there are minor differences between various printings of either edition.)
…and another thing – they were in the time room – no one could figure out a way to save the prophecy? Why not use that bell jar thingee?
Randall
Ya know, i was thinking about that too… why didn’t they use the stuff in the time room to save Sirius and what exactly was behind that veil… I was expecting it to be one of the plot bunnies that Dumbledore would wrap up at the end of the bookbut alas… Ear wax…
Ra!
This book was incredibly accurate about a lot of things. Harry was your normal, typical, self-centered bášŧárd that every single 15-year old is. It’s in the psychology of the beast – I teach high school, so I see it every day. Kids that age can transcend that on occasion, but not often enough. Harry had a very accurate “It’s not my fault, I’m innocent, woe is me.”
His relationship with Cho Chang was accurate, too. Most high school relationships (viewing them from the outside as a teacher) are very intense, very passionate – but the intensity and passion rarely intrude onto real life. To badly paraphrase Shakespeare, most high school relationships are “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
I, personally, would love to see that Voldemort is actually Harry’s father.
SPOILER!!!!!!!!! DONT READ IT IF U DONT WANT TO FIND OUT WHO DIES!!!
I think that Sirius’s death hit me pretty hard….. ive always wondered y it couldnt be anyone else because now where is harry going to go???? i really really hope that there is some way he can çûm bak….. I’ve heard taht Lupin is going to take over the godfather duty now..
O YEA and if ne1 noes any rumorrs for the 6th or 7th HP book can u post em for me??? thnx a bunch……
Neil Ottenstein wrote:
About Cho Chang – I think that she is one year ahead, so the 6th book may be the last we see her.
Not necessarily. The series has become increasingly driven by events occurring outside of Hogwarts, and the 7th book is likely to be the culmination of this trend. Obviously, it will probably contain the final showdown with Voldemort. But more importantly, it will likely show the 7th-year protagonists (especially Hermione) considering Life After Hogwarts, and that means an increasing focus on the outside world. Either storyline could involve contact with a non-Hogwarter like Cho.
My guess is that, if Cho is a significant figure in book 6, then she will also be part of book 7.
I think this was the first book where we did not get to visit Diagon Alley. I did not realize this until Fred and George said they had a shop there. I guess we will vivit the Alley and the Shop in the next volume.
As far as the likelihood of seeing Cho Chang in book 7 (after she presumably graduates from Hogwarts) goes…well, there’s a bit of a precedent, isn’t there? I mean, we’ve certainly seen a lot of Percy since he’s graduated, haven’t we?
OK, finished the book in 2.5 days at 2am, and rather enjoyed the read even though I kind of wanted the ending to feel a little more climatic than it did, but hey, I think this was the second act set-up to the final act of books 6&7. Anyway, I loved the way that they fleshed out some more of the characters in this book, especially Neville. I actually felt very sypathetic towards him after the St. Mungo’s scene (the bubblegum wrapper being the clincher for me).
Minerva has become my new hero in life. As a teacher, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had my ire raised by the government putting another restriction or test or other silly thing on us that is supposed to make things “better,” but in the end is making it harder to actually teach the subjects. I found myself rooting for Minerva as more than just her character but as the archtype good teacher tired of having her classes and worked looked down on by people who quite honestly couldn’t teach their way out of a paper bag yet still seem to think they know “what’s best.” So you go Minerva, the educational world is behind you. “It unscrews the other way!”
I think Cho’s gone, guys.
I may be totally wrong but I think she is just a Rosalinde and someone else will get to be Juliet.
I reason it thus – Harry’s feelings for Cho aren’t ever stated as being based anything other than looks and in a novel that probably isn’t enough to be that interesting in the long term. He also seems to have accepted their break up by the end of Book V.
I think Luna is probably a surer bet for the longterm.
I am probably too late: I am pretty sure most people have already left this thread behind for good. Nevertheless, I finally finished the book now and after some computer trouble I am also able to post again – so that I want to add my thoughts.
So far I have only read PAD`s comments but after having posted this, I will start reading the rest of this thread.
My husband and me, we both enjoyed the book very much. It is very long but we both think, there is nothing in it that should have been cut. I agree that there is also filler in this book, but it is filler I found interesting and which enriched the story for me. It gave me another opportunity to appreciate and enjoy the richness of this universe. Usually descriptions bore me but not this time.
I agree with everything PAD said about the positive sides of the book but not with the negatives: I can`t see any negative aspects.
I see “The Order of the Phoenix” as a counterpoint to the previous book, a book in which Harry was pretty much a hero. Not without help, of course, and there was a price to pay, but a hero nonetheless. This time, Harry is much more a victim and he is fallible. He makes mistakes but he is certainly not the only one who makes serious mistakes.
What touched me so much is how well I could understand Harry although I could see from early on that the way things are going, it must end in a tragedy. Snape hated James and he hated Harry – and the feeling was mutual. It is ironic that Harry now has a real reason to hate Snape. The way things have been going in the book I guessed quite quickly who Mrs. Rowling killed off – and could appreciate again how well her series is planned. It fitted perfectly. That this person did not only die completely un-heroic but in essence for nothing only makes everything more tragic. No, I don`t see this as a weakness of the book at all but a strength. Mrs. Rowling seemed to have avoided all the cliches of heroic fights and sacrifices on purpose. It only made this war against Voldemort more realistic. Harry was much more a 15 year old youngster with believable problems instead of a superboy. It was also good to see that he is also surrounded by people who have weaknesses as well and how dangerous overconfidence is against such an enemy. I think this lesson was even necessary to enable Harry and his friends in future to actually beat Voldemort.
I am not surprised that Voldemort was looking for the prophecy: WE know what is in it but not him. To him, Harry is the biggest obstacle to achieve his plans. He was hoping to find the key to be able to defeat him. He couldn`t know that this prophecy would be useless to him now.
I think “The Order of the Phoenix” is one of the best written tragedies I have read so far. My husband and me, we both think it is an excellent book.
The thing I can’t wait to find out is what everyone got on their OWLS. I don’t belive we have to wait until the next book to find out.
SPB
I’m probably the last lonely poster to this thread, but only finished the book over the 4th of July holiday (two weeks is ancient history in this fast-paced world). I enjoyed the book. I did think it was padded out a bit. “Goblet of Fire” could have gone on and on (I felt the same way about “Shogun” and “Lonesome Dove”), but I didn’t have that same feeling on this one. Harry did come off as a bit unsympathetic, but he also came off as a very realistic 15 year old who has gone through absolutely horrible experiences. And I’m sure as the story arc continues, his heroic nature will come to the fore. The only fault I had was that I would think that Snape would, if not still be postitively inclined towards Harry, at least not treat Draco and his cronies so grandly as Snape knows their parents are Death Eaters. Still, we may see as the story arc heads towards completion a reconciliaton between Snape and Harry, and maybe even a redemption of Draco (he may be like a sheltered son of organized crime). Still, had to say I enjoyed it. Glad we still have Ron and Hermione, and hope the next book isn’t too long off. (Hello? Anybody out there?)
Hi JimO,
Yes, there is at least one person left reading the comments on OotP! I have been interested in everyone’s opionions and enjoyed reading yours.
I’ve also gone back over the earlier books this weekend and now agree with Rachel (earlier post) that I have a horrible feeling that Dumbledore’s going to turn out to be evil. Mostly based on Dumbledore’s reaction in Book 4 to the news that Voldemort has now managed to overcome his mother’s spell and hurt Harry:
“For a fleeting moment, Harry thought he saw a gleam of somthing like triumph in Dumbledore’s eyes.”
It goes on to then say Harry is sure he must have imagined it but if that was truly the case, then I doubt it would have been included in the first place.
book 5 also sounds a few worrying notes, not least Hermione’s statement “If we can’t trust Dumbledore, we can’t trust anybody” which is followed by a starred paragraph break, the novel equivalent of a long pause.
Hope I’m wrong, but there has been something of a running theme of apparently good people turning out to be rotten to the core running through the novels.
Caroline, you gave me hope of continued dialogue. I’ll just say I don’t think Dumbledore will turn out to be evil. I honestly think some of what we read into the book is imperfect writing on Rowling’s part,though I think she gets better with every book. I thought Book 3 was very awkward, but 4 she really got into her groove. Still, I think Dumbledore will be a constant for good. He might not survive to the end of Book 7, but I’d say he’ll be in Harry’s corner.
I also don’t think Dumbledore will turn out to be evil (at least not in a simplistic ‘He’s-Revealed-To-Be-Working-With-voldemort!’ way.)
I do think, though, that we’ve already seen enough examples that Dumbledore is, for whatever reason, not telling Harry everything. He may be, Obi-Wan Kenobi-like, given to dissemble as to his true plans for opposting Voldemort, or the true peril that Harry’s in, or what Harry will have to do, or something like that.
Then again, perhaps Dumbledore will prove ultimately ineffective in whatever the final battle turns out to be, and Snape has to step in. Which’d make some amount of thematic sense, I suppose…
As for that major character’s death: All I know is, I’ve read enough comic books to know that no one’s really dead if you don’t have a body. (And, even if there’s a body, you still can’t be sure, ask Jean Grey.)
Shortly before this latest Harry Potter was released, the BBC here in Britain broadcast a longer interview with the author.
No, the character in question is definitely dead, dead for good.
Now I’m going to be the last one to post here (I hope not).
On the other hand, when folks thought they unearthed a secret at the climax of Goblet of Fire that’d play out in the future, it turned out not to be an intentional hint from Rowling, but a mistake that was corrected in future printings… Still, it’s natural and fun to guess what might happen in the next books.
Can anyone out there explain what this means? I have the first printing, so I’ve missed any “corrections.”
Did they really Americanize the last two books? There was a mistake in “Goblet of Fire” because of the Americanization. Here’s the story:
I was fortunate to be able to hear “Philosopher’s Stone” while reading “Sorceror’s Stone.” Remember in the first chapter, when Dumbledore offers McGonagall a “lemon drop” (American version)? It’s a “sherbet lemon” in the British version.
In the American version of “Chamber of Secrets,” when McGonagall takes Harry into Dumbledore’s office, the password she uses is “lemon drop.” But in the movie version, it’s “sherbet lemon.” Obviously, Scholastic had changed it again.
But in “Goblet of Fire,” when Harry tries to break into Dumbledore’s office, the password he tries is “sherbet lemon.” To stay consistent, Scholastic should have changed it to “lemon drop.”
Anyway, regarding “Order of the Phoenix,” several people compared Umbridge to Hitler. I don’t know if there’s a British equivalent of Ashcroft or not, but I took the Umbridge characterization as a shot across his bow. Toad-like, indeed.
Harry waiting in dread for word of a Voldemort attack certainly reminded me of the way I was checking the news in the weeks following the attacks of September 11, 2001. I’m sure Rowling was dealing with her own fears and feelings. The real world coincidentally intruded on her storyline.
Am I misreading the comments above, or is everyone under the impression that Voldemort now knows the prophecy? I don’t see that at all, unless Voldemort was looking through Harry’s eyes during Dumbledore’s talk with Harry at the end.
A couple things I don’t understand: How did Voldemort know well enough what Sirius looks like to make the phony vision realistic, and — more importantly — if Lily Potter wasn’t magical, how come she was at Hogwarts?
Raymond writes:
On the other hand, when folks thought they unearthed a secret at the climax of Goblet of Fire that’d play out in the future, it turned out not to be an intentional hint from Rowling, but a mistake that was corrected in future printings… Still, it’s natural and fun to guess what might happen in the next books.
Can anyone out there explain what this means? I have the first printing, so I’ve missed any “corrections.”
Sure, I’ll explain, since (I think) I was the one who brought it up in the first place.
At the climax of Goblet of Fire, Harry’s wand and Voldemort’s wand get caught it a sort of magical feedback loop (I think they called it the “Priori Incantatem” phenomenon) that causes Voldemort’s wand to eject shadowy remnants of the spells it had previously cast. Since Voldemort’s wand was basically used for, you know, killing people, this means that the wand sends out ghosts of the people Voldemort has killed recently killed–including Cedric Diggory, James Potter, and Lily Potter.
As I recall, in the first printing of Goblet of Fire, James Potter’s ghost emerges first, then Lily’s. Later, in describing the feedback phenomenon, Dumbledore explains that Voldemort’s wand was sending out its previous spells in reverse order. This would imply that Voldemort killed Lily Potter before he killed James Potter, but the descriptions of the Potters’ murder we’d had in the previous books implied just the opposite–James was killed first, then Lily.
Eagle-eyed readers thought that they’d come upon a clue that would play out in future books–that the circumstances behind the Potters’ deaths weren’t exactly what we’d been lead to believe.
But, it turns out, this was just a mistake, not an intentionally planted clue. Future printings of Goblet of Fire were amended so that James & Lily’s appearnce from Voldemort’s wand was reversed, and so that Dumbledore’s description of the phenomenon is less precise (I think he says that the wand spewed out its previously-cast spells, but not that it did so in exactly reverse order…)
Anyway, that’s the gist of it. Given how comics fans have long since made a secondary hobby of noting continuity glitches, I find it amusing and strangely encouraging to know that those same glitches happen in novels, too…
Firstly, I would like to say that I loved this book. I read it in one day, started at lunchtime for a couple hours, broke for work, then almost non-stop from 6:00- 1:30. I had to know who died, and what was in the prophecy.
Secondly, I wasn’t surprised to find out how cocky and arrogant James and Sirus were at school. We saw hints of it when we found out in the third book they all became animagi so they could keep Remus company while he was a werewolf, and they were leaving the shrieking shack and roaming the village.
Why is everyone so surprised about the magic of staying at the Dursely’s? The last book as much as sayed — or at least I totally inferred — that he was magically protected while at the Dursely’s. Dumbledoor even said in novel 4 that while one avenue of protection was gone, theter were others that Voldemort did not know about.
When Harry is with Voldemort and the Death Eaters after Voldemort’s resurrection, he says that Harry has been protected by Dumbledore in ways he (Harry) could never imagine: “But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy’s future. Dumbledore invoked ancient magic, to ensure the boy’s protection as long as he is in his relations’ care. Not even I can touch him there …:”
I’ve also gone back over the earlier books this weekend and now agree with Rachel (earlier post) that I have a horrible feeling that Dumbledore’s going to turn out to be evil. Mostly based on Dumbledore’s reaction in Book 4 to the news that Voldemort has now managed to overcome his mother’s spell and hurt Harry:
“For a fleeting moment, Harry thought he saw a gleam of somthing like triumph in Dumbledore’s eyes.”
When I read the quote about the triumph, I thought, maybe, this has something to do with how he protected Harry. Maybe there is something in Harry’s blood that will help kill Voldemort. Then, at the end of book 5 (which I can’t quote because my mother has it) he said that inside the Department of Mysteries there is a door that is kept locked at all times because what is inside it is good but is also a terrible force, and that Harry has this force inside him in such quantities that Voldemort could not possess Harry’s body for long, that it was in Harry’s very heart. Blood is in your heart.
Also, because of this passage in the book, we know that Voldemort still doesn’t know what is in the second half of the prophecy because Voldemort was trying to get Dumbledore to kill Harry for him (by possessing Harry), and the prophecy states that either Harry must kill Voldemort, or vice versa.
and — more importantly — if Lily Potter wasn’t magical, how come she was at Hogwarts?
Lily Potter was like Hermione Granger, a muggle-born witch; Petunia Dursley mentions something about it in the first book; “oh, she got a letter just like that and disappeared off to that – that school – and came home every holiday with her pockets full of frog-spawn, turning teacups into rats. I was the only one who saw her for what she was – a freak! But for my mother and father, oh, no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family!”
The only fault I had was that I would think that Snape would, if not still be postitively inclined towards Harry, at least not treat Draco and his cronies so grandly as Snape knows their parents are Death Eaters.
We know Snape is the double-agent, and that he is working for Dumbledore and tricking Voldemort. How do you trick Voldemort? He is an excellent Occulmenist, as Remus tells Harry. However, if Snape knows Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle are all children of death-eaters, then these kids also know that Snape is (posing as) a death-eater. If Snape treats them badly, it would get back to Voldemort and then we know Voldemort would kill him and that would be bad for his role in the Order of the Phoneix.
I hope this helps clarify the points/questions people had.
When is the next Harry Potter coming? I hope it’s soon, I don’t know if I will make it another three years.
It’s been questioned before which of the characters would pair off romanticaly. In an interview with Katie Couric, JKR seemed surprisd when Couric asked if Harry and Hermione would become a couple. She responded by saying NO, Ron and Hermione. I got the impression that Harry would end up by himself through books 6 & 7.
Neville has always shown strength of character. He stood up to Ron, Harry, and Hermione is previous books. This must have been hard for him as they were some of the few people who treated him with respect. Shy and awkward does not equal slow and stupid. He may not be the prophesized one but I think he will prove to be heroic.
I think Percy has definitely crossed over to the dark side. He has always been a power hungry weasel and his new position in the Ministry can only deepen his greed. Sirius was the only good person in his family so why can’t Percy be the only bad in his? He may not become evil but he certainly isn’t innocent.
The first book was excellent and the fourth was a wonderful ride but the fifth was a mild disapointment. Following a ranting and pouting Harry through 800-odd pages was not enjoyable. I understand that he is a 15 year old boy but still, one does not change from a sweet-tempered, mild-mannered, well-adjusted 14 to a disturbed, depressed 15 in two months without someone caring enough to help him.
I also think Hermione acted out of character in this book. Yes she had mellowed a bit by book 4, but still, who can really believe that she would let Harry go off to London without at least telling Snape, the one member of the Order left. She obviously believed the dream to be a fake.
All in all it was a good story, but if it was the first in a series, I don’t think I would read the rest. Of course the first four got me hooked and I’ll read the next two, but I hope they are better.
It’s nice to see this thread still has some life and that not everyone read the book in one day. Getting back to Jocelyn who commented on my remark about Snape treating Draco, et. al well. I thought Voldemort knew Snape had gone over to Dumbledore and said something to the effect he (Voldemort) planned to kill Snape (this was at the end of Goblet of Fire). I didn’t get from the Books that Snape was trying to deceive the bad guys that he was still on their side. In fact, I inferred that the reason Fudge, Jr. as the ersatz Moody showed such hatred towards Snape was because he knew Snape had switched allegiances.
I think JK Rowling is deliberately maikng it very unclear as to just what the tasks that Dumbledore has given Snape are. Harry assumes that it is to go back to spying for the Death Eaters, but it is never anywhere stated that this is the case – it is all supposition on the part of other characters. (Well, apart from Umbridge’s exasperated comment about Lucius Malfoy always speaking so hihgly about him when he refuses to help her).
Against the spy argument is the evidence quoted by JimO – Fake Moody and Voldemort did not seem anxious to welcome him back into the fold in book 4.
This is not surprising. After all, people who have spied for the other side presumably have a tricky time of explaining how they can be trusted again.
Bring on Book 6 where presumably more can be revealed!
You can’t be 11703 serious?!?