Word on Newsarama is that Mark Waid was fired off FF for refusing to take the series in the direction dictated by Marvel higher-ups: i.e., ditching the high adventure tone (which Mark’s been doing a great job with) in favor of, according to Waid, “making the FF a wacky suburban dramedy where Reed’s a nutty professor who creates amazing but impractical inventions, Sue’s the office-temp breadwinner, the cranky neighbor is their new “arch-enemy.”
Basically, it’s “Honey, I Shrunk the FF.”
It will be interesting to see if the book is being used as a rough draft for what the projected November 2004 FF movie may eventually become.
Me, I’m flashing back to when I shown the door from “Hulk” because the Marvel higher-ups knew the way to go was 22 pages of “Hulk smash.” And that version tanked, and the current book is about as far from 22 pages of “Hulk smash” as you can get…and everyone who made the decision leading to my departure is long-ago fired.
Is NO ONE at Marvel familiar with the writings of George Santayana?
PAD
• 
In a word: yuck.
I’m a longtime FF reader — between Masterworks and way too much money on back issues, I’ve got a complete set up through Simonson’s run.
I walked away once — when Walt was booted and DeFalco came in as writer. Having been burned once that way on Thor, I wasn’t going to let it happen a second time.
Since then (and ignoring Heroes Reborn), I’ve usually found enough to like in whatever’s happening in FF to keep buying it.
But dammit, I liked Waid’s run. A lot. If this rumor’s true, it’s time to walk away again — for a while, this time.
Sigh.
TWL
Steve: [Mark Waid] then leaves Ruse because of CrossGen…
Andrew Dynon: Mark Waid has made himself a reputation for being difficult to work with (who here remembers the, uh, difficulties with Crossgen that caused him to head to Marvel?).
Luigi Novi: I had no idea that he left Ruse because of editorial difficulties. I just assumed he told the story he wanted to and moved on. Pity. Ruse was the only CrossGen book I read, and after he left, it became confusing, incomprehensible, and annoying to read. I no longer buy it.
Donald: The few issues I’ve read of Waid’s FF run haven’t been very good. I will certainly not pick up the book if Bill Jemas starts writing it, but I wouldn’t mind seeing Mark Waid removed. I don’t think he’s a great writer and I usually find his stories annoying, trite, and untrue to the characters.
Luigi Novi: I myself picked up a copy of the book because of both Waid and Mike Wieringo. I didn’t care for either the art or the story. But then again, at least those two creators are what enticed me to pick it up in the first place and give it a try.
Jemas will not produce the same interest in me.
Matt Adler: The reason I call it “character vs. writer” is because I can’t imagine that any substantial numbers of people would buy FF specifically for Jemas’ writing. So if sales DO hold relatively steady (ie; FF stays in the top 40) that would be the ultimate confirmation of the “readers follow the character, not the writer” dictum. Which would be really sad.
Luigi Novi: Well, to each his own, but there are many people who do like to build a run of a certain book, rather than follow a writer. The owner of the last comic book store I used to frequent weekly near my house wanted to build an entire run of Hulk. A close friend buys anything and all things Batman (the series, one-shots, miniseries, etc.). I was fascinated by this approach, and asked him about it, and he said that while he doesn’t go out of his way to buy something if it’s written badly, the character is what will give him the initial incentive.
I read this on a monday. *sigh* Typical. I guess mondays ARE supposed to be screwed up.
I run a shop in Vermont, and I can tell you that the sales on FF are undergoing a renaissance that can be summed up in two words: Mark Waid.
Within four issues of his departure, sales will be back to pre-Waid levels. If Jemas actually writes the silly thing, they’ll go even lower.
90% of me is saying “they did WHAT?” Mark Waid is probably my favorite comic book writer, and I have followed his work to the end of the industry. As have many others. To see him dumped in such a manner and then to be replaced by Jemas is a wure sign to me that Jemas is even dumber than I thought. I have come to believe that if I like something from Marvel, it’s only a matter of time before someone messes with it. Capt. America, Capt. Marvel, Black Panther, FF. I think I just gonna quit Marvel.
However, I keep hearing a little voice in my head listing all the books that Waid left under a cloud. Maybe there is more here than meets the eye. Does it matter? I don’t think it does. But when a sports coach has this kind of track record, like Rick Pitino or Larry Brown, you lose the ability to forget the person and pay attention only to the coach and his record.
Or maybe Waid is just a DC boy at heart, and nothing will do.
I have always liked the idea of Fantastic Four, but never really was able to stay hooked on to the book. Waid’s run finally made me a regular FF fan, for the first time in 15 years of reading comics. I will be dropping this book with Waid’s last issue. I have been looking to drop some titles, and Marvel has given me an good reason to drop two lately (FF and Iron Man).
Personally, I enjoy(ed) Waid’s run on FF. I stopped just before he started and decided to try out the cheap issue. I had a complete run of FF from when Byrne was just the penciller (and some before that) thru Byrne’s run thru the Onslaught/Heroes Reborn storyline and up until I quit…then started again. I have been with the First Family thru the worst and best of their published work (I have Masterworks for much of the early stuff) and I actually was looking forward to it each month. Of course I also collected Hulk from about 280 (amnesty issue) thru the end of the run and into the current title by about 5-6 issues. I bagan to feel cheated. Byrne’s first run on Hulk was fun but his second seemed lost. I enjoyed Jenkins on it and I enjoy Bruce Jones’ work on Hulk except it’s main continuity. It should have been the Ultimate Version… not that it’s the “ultimate” version but that it’s worth reading but not worth occupying the covetted “gospel” spot. Like “Banner”… decent read but belongs outside continuity. At least Waid was only on for a short while unlike PAD’s run on Hulk or Aquaman or Supergirl or YJ or… well everything but XFactor (relatively short). Anyway, it’s bad news that Waid is leaving. If he wants to leave… well it’s still bad news. Enjoyable run by an enjoyable creator. Of course, we ALL know the flesh armor on Doom won’t last. Just as the mindless “Hulk Smash” Hulk didn’t last. It’s limiting to some just as the intelligent Hulk could be. It’s all cyclical.
Anyway, have a happy and that’s my thoughts on all this.
I’m devastated. I see what a few said here about Marvel’s stocks relying on their success in the movie business, but after awhile, I doubt if even that’ll avail, and no indeed, it won’t.
In fact, contrary to what they may be trying to do, go after the movie audiences, I’m uncertain if they really do want them: if they’re going to take out the themes that the movie is likely to contain(adventure and action and romance), then the chances are unlikely that the readers will take to something that doesn’t reflect the movie’s genre.
Having thought this over, I don’t know if this is the best conclusion in anyone else’s opinion, but…I’ve decided to boycott any and all movies based on Marvel comics from now on. If they’re going to sabotage their characters and their comics in order to supposedly draw in moviegoers and sitcom watchers, even going so far as to alienate the dedicated fans, and even trying to make money more off of the movies than the comics themselves, then I can’t see any reason to support the movies if the comics they’re based on can’t present the audience with the same goods as the movies do. Indeed, what good is the movie, really, if Marvel’s going to be a favoratist and consider them more important? Or, what good is it if they don’t consider the comics to be as important?
Even if you disagree, it’s still an intriguing thought that I had here, and you may want to contemplate the possiblities of it.
And while I’m on this topic, I thought to provide a link to an article in the New Republic that you may be interested in checking out too. I think it tells a lot of interesting things about New X-Men’s dire state to some extent, and how it’s all being written in sharp contrast to the themes the movie used as well.
Add me to the list of people who hadn’t read FF in awhile and picked it up ’cause of Weid. I really liked his run on Flash, and although I didn’t think FF was fantastic, it did keep me interested enough to keep buying it to see where it was going. I’ve NEVER picked up Marville (it just looked BAD). This was a bad decision, let’s hope they change thier minds soon.
Dear Bill,
I was sorry to hear that Marvel has removed Mark Waid as writer of
FANTASTIC FOUR. I’m sure you know what’s best, but I was enjoying his run — the first time I’ve liked the book since John Byrne’s 1980s run.
Anyway, the point is, I thought you were serious about bringing quality talent onto your books and keeping them, so I bought every issue of Waid’s FF and was looking forward to years more worth of stories from him.
I’m hoping you’ll issue me a refund for the money I wasted on this now-aborted run. Please send me your address and I’ll get the
now-unwanted issues right out to you. You can send the check for these comics I was tricked into buying to:
Alan Doane
7 Union #3-B
Glens Falls NY 12801
I hope you will stand behind your belief that it was right to remove
Waid from the title by refunding my wasted cash that I spent on these books thinking Waid would be trusted to create a quality title. As I say, it’s your company and I am sure you know what you’re doing, but you deceived me into buying these issues and you need to make it right.
I hope to hear from you soon so I can get rid of these useless comics.
Best,
Alan
“If I vaguely remember a interveiw or story I read… they are this family that does amazing stuff, and behind closed doors, they are totally goofy.”
Gods and devils, I think I get it. I know how the movie was sold.
So, it’s like “The Osbournes” with superpowers, only Ozzy’s a genius.
This was posted by someone named “Felicia”, on Brian Bendis’ Image board, on Saturday (ie; before the Waid news broke):
There are TONS of reasons why Marvel would do this:
For starters, this whole Epic idea stems from Bill Jemas scheming up the idea that he can undercut his costs by allowing wannabe creators a shot at writing/drawing for much less than a professional would do it for. Consider this: A certain well paid mainstream artist who I won’t say by name is currently paid an average of $1000 dollars per page. At 22 pages that comes out to a production cost of $22,000 dollars. Even at a bi-monthly rate, that’s alot of wad for a whole year and that is just the artist. On the Epic line, you get (up to) $8000 dollars to distribute within yourselves: artist, writer, inker, colorist, letterer and compositor. Yeah, you may be able to split this labor between 2 of you creative geniuses, but that’s still alot less… ALOT less than the cost of producing a book with a pro. A second part to this that benefits Marvel’s pockets is that editorial is completely taken out of the equation. The current salary for an editor at Marvel can range anywhere between 30 to 60,000 dollars. This depends on seniority and how many books are being edited per editor that is… work load distribution. If editorial is liquidated, then Jemas and higher ups (Ike, Avi Arad) will have even more money to line their pockets. Also, there will be no need for the Bullpen or anyone in production who assembles the current Marvel lineup and do things like color correcting and compositing since you will be doing this work for them which you agreed to do when you signed that piece of paper that says you HAVE to. In fact, consider this: Within the past 2 months, Marvel has fired more people and more ENTIRE departments from their company than they have in the past 5 years. About 2 months ago, the entire lettering department, except for the head of lettering (Dave Sharpe) was let go. The employees at this company are so fed up with the insecurities of their jobs that some of them are even quitting before hand. Ultimately, Marvel which existed on 3 floors at 10 east 40th street (floors 9, 10, 11) which they pay alot of rent for will be compressed into one floor (floor 10) and then afterwhich will then have every creative element from within expunged and computers for graphic work replaced with computers from accounting and number crunching. You know who is going to help them do that? You are. Every last person that wants to submit an Epic story that will settle for less money and every person that buys from that Epic line (in the event that Epic should be successful).
Sounds crazy right? What you don’t think Bill Jemas is crazy like that? Consider this: All of you should find this interesting as this information hasn’t been made public yet: Mark Waid, the current writer for Fantastic Four has been fired. Yes, Mark Waid fired from FF. Don’t believe me? Give it time to get to your nearest news source. You know who is replacing him? Bill Jemas. Yes, Bill Jemas himself, who has the ego the size of his bloated head believes that Mark Waid was taking the book in a bad direction. FYI: FF was selling more books than it currently had in years. So for those of you saying it’s not a big deal, they change writers all the time… but it is. Marvel’s editors had struggled very hard to get this book selling back at the top. They even did the 9 cent issue for promotion and lost alot of money doing so. You still don’t think Bill is full of himself? The Namor that is being put out by him, well, nothing more than “the Little Mermaid” redone in Namor flavor. What about Sentinel? “A Boy and His Robot.” Bill Jemas believes strongly that books will sell in same amounts if they are done by any artist and written by any writer. This is a theory he shares alone, as none of the other editors or Joe Quesada himself support this concept.
Why don’t creators leave Marvel if this is true? They don’t know yet. Those that do suspect something, well what are they gonna do? They really don’t have to go anywhere unless they get fired. They can keep doing what they are doing and working the books they work on. Bill isn’t going to tell them to their face that he doesn’t want them and they aren’t really gonna ask Bill if this is really the deal. And if they do, there is always plausible deniability. Bill can just take them out to lunch, or make Joe do it, and tell them how much they are loved and appreciated. Admittedly, Marvel does need them for now. And, in my belief, they will always need them. Imagine a Marvel without Bendis, Millar or Morrison. Bill Jemas can imagine it… and to him, it is the same successful Marvel it will always be. To it’s fans? Well… we’ll see. But remember, when you see creators walking out of the company, the power leaves with them, and I believe, as many others within the company, that Bill Jemas will single-handedly take that company down.
Still wanna submit to Epic? Reread their contract agreements and keep in mind what i just told you. See if every other sentence on that paper doesn’t resonate with “we want to screw if we get the chance”. Though, if you don’t see it, well it’s like Micah said, then maybe you are Epic material. Incidentally, i have a friend that was about to get processed for what seemed like a good Epic deal. He has now pulled out of the deal and submitted the same creator owned concept to DarkHorse. Dark Horse has opened their doors in an answer to Marvel’s Epic. I suggest everyone with an original creator owned concept submit it to Dark Horse instead.
-Felicia
Point of order: much of the success of Marvel’s current stock price relies on their successfully breaking into Hollywood.
Ok, I was just using stock price to indicate that Marvel has flourished under Jemas. Yes, the movies are the primary reason for the stock surge.
But if you want to talk comics, I just read where 3 years ago Marvel’s share of the comic market was about 35%. This past quarter, it was about 65%. So you can see the comic business too is flowering under Jemas’ sturdy leadership.
I guess it comes down to a philosophical belief. Do you believe that Marvel’s success (and by every measurable number, they are booming now) is just a fluke, something that came like a bolt from the blue….that even if an idiot like say Rob Liefeld was currently Marvel President, the level of success they are having would be the same?
I say thee nay. I believe Jemas has made some very smart moves. Mostly, he has taken very bold chances and by and large, those chances have paid off.
People moaned when they heard about the Ultimate Spider-Man idea (me among them I admit). But that idea was absolute GENIUS in hindsight, producing one of the best comics on the market right now.
So okay, FF. Jemas and Co. have decided they don’t like the direction of the book. They want to try something new. What a wacky idea. I mean, Marvel should never try new ideas…like say making the Hulk grey, smart, sinister and called Mr. Fixit…should they now??? No, they should just keep publishing the same boring titles in the same boring fashion year after year until they go out of business.
I guess what I’m saying is that Jemas takes chances. Some pay off, some don’t. But given a choice between somebody willing to try new things and somebody who tries nothing (ala DC), I prefer the former every time. And I don’t understand why trying new things makes him evil, “a whørë” or a talentless, idiotic, hack.
Best–Chris
“But if you want to talk comics, I just read where 3 years ago Marvel’s share of the comic market was about 35%. This past quarter, it was about 65%. So you can see the comic business too is flowering under Jemas’ sturdy leadership.”
Uh, no. Still hovering at the 35% level. That’s the thing. For all the hoopla of the Bill & Joe show, sales are still about the same. Now where they did make money from the publishing arm was they introduced a viable trade paperback program. The increase in Marvel stock has come soley from the licensing division – in other words movies, videogames, and other nick nacks.
This is really bad news. Let me add my voice to all of the others who stated that the only reason they were picking up FF was because of Waid’s writing. I will drop this book like a hot potato afer Waid’s run has completed. And let me ask a question: Why is Marvel becoming obsessed with matching comic continuity/concept with the corresponding movie’s continuity/concept? Why cant’t the two versions co-exist? According to Derrick Robertson (sp?), word has come from Marvel editorial that Wolverine is to look like Hugh Jackman. Now don’t get me wrong, I really like Jackman as Wolvie in the movies but I also like Robertson’s version in the new solo series. The real shame is that I buy and enjoy several Marvel books, but if this idiocy continues, I don’t think FF will be the only book I’ll be dropping.
Chris-
Yes, I agree that Marvel’s market share is up, but they had spent the last 2 to 3 years hiring & promoting talented & proven writers such as PAD, Claremont, Waid, Ennis, and others. But if they’re going to start firing & driving away this talent, then their market share will fall again, just as it did in the past when they put gimmicks, crossovers, etc. ahead of the stories that the majority of the readers buy the books for.
As the saying goes, “If it isn’t broken, don’t fix it”. In this case it translates to “If sales are rising, let it continue to do so”.
“making the FF a wacky suburban dramedy where Reed’s a nutty professor who creates amazing but impractical inventions, Sue’s the office-temp breadwinner, the cranky neighbor is their new “arch-enemy.”
This sounds like a really, really, really bad joke. If it happens, though, the joke’s on the FF readers. And, ultimately, on Marvel for all the FF readers and Waid fans they lost.
QUOTE: “…I thought you were serious about bringing quality talent onto your books and keeping them, so I bought every issue of Waid’s FF and was looking forward to years more worth of stories from him.
I’m hoping you’ll issue me a refund for the money I wasted on this now-aborted run. Please send me your address and I’ll get the
now-unwanted issues right out to you. You can send the check for these comics I was tricked into buying to:
Alan Doane
7 Union #3-B
Glens Falls NY 12801
I hope you will stand behind your belief that it was right to remove
Waid from the title by refunding my wasted cash that I spent on these books thinking Waid would be trusted to create a quality title. As I say, it’s your company and I am sure you know what you’re doing, but you deceived me into buying these issues and you need to make it right.
I hope to hear from you soon so I can get rid of these useless comics.” END QUOTE
I don’t get these kinds of statements. OK, yes, I agree it is a mistake for Marvel to take Mark Waid off of FF and replace him with Bill Jemas.
But how does this negate the entertainment value of the Waid issues you previously purchased and enjoyed? That’s a typical Internet fanboy type overreaction, and it plays into the stereotype Jemas loves to mock.
If you are not happy with the new direction, just don’t buy the issues where these changes will take effect. I certainly won’t, but I enjoyed Waid’s first FF tpb, and will purchase his remaining arcs if Marvel collects them as well.
While it’s encouraging to see someone willing to stand up for an unpopular opinion, I think it’s important to distinguish between concept and execution. I don’t think that “FF as whacky family comedy” is necessarily a bad idea. That element has been in the book since the Lee/Kirby days (and has been more prominent in Waid’s FF than I remember from many other runs). Under the right writer, it could be a very funny mini-series.
Unfortunately, Jemas’ track record doesn’t suggest that he’s the writer to do the concept justice. And while the concept is okay for a side story, emphasizing one element of the book over all the others is a waste of potential. (In much the same way as treating the FF as a team book like the Avengers or JLA would also be a waste of potential.)
In my best Cartman impression “God f**king Ðámņìŧ”
So whats his last issue?
The mission statement that waid wrote for ff was amazing and for the first time I thought that someone was using reed richards to his potential, now I just hope to god they don’t bring back the whole submariner love interest because that is really fricking annoying. I’ll give it one issue and if it doesn’t blow me away… goodbye!, the simonson run was the best issues of the ff and the best storyline is issues 347-349. Read it. Know it. live it. there will be a test. Art adams rules!!
I just want to say that Your run on the hulk (Peter David) Was my one my favorite books i pefer the smart hulk more than the current Hulk Smash kind of thing. The Current run of the hulk is okay the art good the writting i okay but good be so much better. I think it would be great if you got another turn at doing the Hulk. The News about Mark Waid totally sucks. I like Mark Waid’s writting and I am totally loving his work on the FF. Before i have read the ff and its good book but Mark Waid did such a good job at fleshing out the characters. He’s made the Thing a much better character. For the a while the thing was whiny with always feeling sorry for himself cause he is funky bag of rocks. When he leaves the book i will stop reading. I’m going to do as a sign of support for mark Waid. I think everyone out there as sign of support to mark Mark Waid shouldn’t buy the fantastic four issues. If everyone did that it show Marvel what dumb thing they did.
With some people mentioning the Pixar movie next year (The Incredibles) that will come out next year and its similarity to Jemas’ idea, one should also point out the Powerpuff Girls have also done this same thing with Super-Villian Harold Smith.
Mike
From Chris:
“I guess it comes down to a philosophical belief. Do you believe that Marvel’s success (and by every measurable number, they are booming now) is just a fluke, something that came like a bolt from the blue….that even if an idiot like say Rob Liefeld was currently Marvel President, the level of success they are having would be the same?
I say thee nay. I believe Jemas has made some very smart moves. Mostly, he has taken very bold chances and by and large, those chances have paid off.”
Actually, Chris, it was Joe Quesada who made the smart moves in hiring respected talent. It wasn’t until Garth Ennis began writing it that people supported a Punisher series in a serious way. Ditto the bump in sales when Grant Morrison jumped onto X-Men…people who had long been sick of the Mutant titles started reading it at that point (at least, in my store).
The only thing that Mr. Jemas contributed to this process was telling Joe Q. to go to it. Jemas has nothing to do with the comics sales numbers except that he happens to be the president of the company. Just because he’s the boss doesn’t mean that he knows what he’s doing.
The sales on Hulk, New X-Men, and Fantastic Four are all writer-driven. Take away the writers, and the sales will drop. After all, they sold poorly in the past without name writers attached to them (in the case of the Hulk, post-PAD and pre-Jenkins and Jones). Will the readers attracted by the writers stay with the series after the writers leave (or are booted)? Past experience says ‘no’.
Peter, since your inside Marvel, please give Bill and Joe Q a good kick for thinking of getting rid of Waid. Waid has gotten the FF back on track, and if anything, they occasionally have their commical mishaps that may coincide with Marvel’s mandate. (The Bug hunt Reed and Migit Ben went on in the building)
Really, make it known the fans love the FF the way it IS! The high flying Imaginagts!
Y’know, when I was doing improv with The Groundlings, one of their tenets was: Always Play To The Top Of Your Intelligence. I took that to heart then, and I still do today. To put it another way: Don’t pander. Don’t ‘dumb it down’. Play ( or write, or draw, or create ) to the top of your intelligence. Alan Moore does. Grant Morrison does. Harlan Ellison does. Peter David does. “Mystery Science Theatre 3000” did. The best Warner Bros. cartoons did ( Remember, they weren’t written for children, to be shown on television, but rather written for general audiences to be shown in movie theatres. Or, as Chuck Jones once put it: ‘We made the cartoons we wanted to see.’ ).
Marvel, currently, does not.
They alternately pander to ‘Hollywood’ and dumb down to attract the elusive, amorphous ‘new readership’. Guys…..just tell good stories with a combination of the best writing and the best narrative artwork ( I emphasise ‘narrative’ over full-page pin-ups with word balloons )and the readers will find you.
I was a new reader once. I didn’t need a ‘jumping-on issue’….I jumped on, grabbed áhøld and what I was reading made me want to seek out more ( whether ‘more’ was other titles, or back issues, it was still ‘more’ ). If I didn’t like what I was reading, for whatever reason, I jumped off. Plain and simple.
I remember one of these Marvel brain donors crowing ( I think it was in ‘Wizard’ magazine )about how they were going to tell “the movie version” of such-and-such storyline over in one of the ‘Ultimate’ titles. “‘The movie version’?!”, I thought. “You’re not IN the movie industry….your job is to produce comic books, unless I’m mistaken! Instead of second-guessing what ‘the movie version’ of an arc would be, why not just create the best comic book version you can??”!
I’d much rather see an imaginative, innovative director attempt to adapt, say, F.F. 48 – 50, and stay as true as possible, within the confines of an entirely different medium, to the vision of Stan and Jack on the movie screen….then read in the pages of a comic, The Avengers as interpreted by Jerry Bruckheimer!!
Hooper
Son. Of. A. Bastich.
A creator getting the boot just as he or she is turning around a comic that is suddenly being acclaimed both critically and financially …. is “standard operating procedure”.
SOP … where egos run amok rein supreme.
Does this mean they’re going to reboot the FF AGAIN?!? After making such a hoopla over #500, is Jemas’ first issue going to be vol. 4 no. 1?!? (I can see the P.R. campaign now: “We’re giving the fans what they want, vol. 4 of the Fantastic Four.”) While the 9 cent issue wasn’t enough to get me back on board, I at least took some solace in knowing that the FF were once again in the hands of somebody who knew and respected the characters’ histories. Now, though, I just feel dirty.
On a totally unrelated note, did anyone here catch Ebert and Roeper’s “Hulk” review. They really liked it, EXCEPT for some of the CGI effects! Ebert had the best line, comparing it to “Beautiful Mind” (Jennifer Connolly in love with a nice, brilliant man who occasionally goes apes**t). All in all, it sounds like the filmmakers have borrowed quite liberally from Bill Mantlo’s “abused little boy Banner” issue and have done a more-than-credible job of translating it to the big screen.
I recall when Jim Shooter decided to take Marvel HIS own way, with the “New Universe” books, where he decided his own taste should become the template for Marvel comics – and would show up DC in sales.
(I hate to bring it up, because Mr. David did some writing on those books, which I seem to recall he now has mixed feelings about.)
IMHO, the “Marvel as movie idea generator” could backfire. The hype surrounding “The Hulk” right now is about as intense as that of the Sony Pictures version of “Godzilla.” The old law of Hollywood is still in effect; the quality of a film is inversely proportional to its hype.
Anyway, it’s surprising to learn that Santa Claus’s first name is George, and that he’s doing some writing.
By Thomas Reed:
IMHO, the “Marvel as movie idea generator” could backfire. The hype surrounding “The Hulk” right now is about as intense as that of the Sony Pictures version of “Godzilla.” The old law of Hollywood is still in effect; the quality of a film is inversely proportional to its hype.
You’ve got an intersting point. I don’t know if it’s because of the worries that I heard are being expressed by MCA or something like that, but I do know that fan backlash could ultimately give moviegoers and even filmmakers the idea that it just isn’t worth it to bother about any of these movies. I myself have already opted not to bother about any of these movies in retaliation to Marvel’s behavior, and will not spend any money on their movies as a statement. An odd form of backlash to some, I suppose, but it could be an interesting one, to say the least.
See, that’s the thing about arguing with numbers. We’re dealing with an indusry that bases sales figures on units shipped to retail, not what people actually buy. And those are the numbers that get touted.
On top of that, you have no overprint from Marvel- which one would think would make things easier to track- but all it means is that you have to have a different measuring stick to gadge Marvel’s actual sales. The stock increase is a spike based on the movies- the TOY BIZ division is still in the tank, and the publishing division is holding, but not gaining.
There’s also no evidence of any attempt at long term growth for the company outside of the Hollywood connection- when that trend spirals downward, so will the stock.
Make no mistake, people are buying into the stock solely on the success of the movies- not Marvel’s internal business decisions. But by that point, Jemas and company will be long gone, having maxed out Marvel’s current drawing
power.
The company will be out of debt, but will have obliterated themselves out of the marketplace in the process.
Marvel’s entire publishing and business life is based primarily on the short term gain. Everything Marvel’s doing points to the continuation of that trend. Current Marvel thinking is that warping their characters to fit a mold which will reap a paltry backend box office percentage is worth more to them than the long term investment in their creative people in the trenches.
You can’t have creative freedom while caving to studio demands. They can’t have it both ways.
I wish Bill Jemas would stick to the business side of things (where he seems to have done quite well) and leave the creative decisions to Joe Quesada and co.
So this is the response Marvel put out:
The FF, Mark Waid, Bill Jemas & the Internet
Dear Comics Fans,
I’ve been busy as hëll of late and found my life much more enjoyable these
last few months that I’ve avoided Internet message boards, but sometimes
things get so out of hand that issues just need to be addressed and tackled
head on.
First off, regarding Mark Waid’s exit from the FANTASTIC FOUR (pretty much
the only part of this ‘story’ that’s completely accurate). Let me preface
this by saying that Mark and I have been friends for years and years and I
expect that that relationship won’t change over this creative decision. Mark
is one of the most talented guys in the business and I have the utmost
respect for what he does, but his departure from FF is now being siphoned
through inaccuracies, mistaken impressions and hardcore enthusiasts
inability to wait for the whole, real story before slitting their proverbial
wrists and launching profanity-ridden grenades. Hey, what the heck, it’s so
much more fun to be angry at Marvel even with only half the story.
Over a month ago Bill Jemas asked for a change of direction for the FF
monthly title … business as usual and no different than asking for a
costume change, a change of cast or story line. As President, it’s Bill’s
right and responsibility to call for changes as he feels will benefit any
Marvel title just as it is mine. This is not the first time such changes
have been asked for and I certainly hope it won’t be the last.
Bill called up Mark and asked him personally to steer the book towards a new
vision and Mark made it clear that it wasn’t a direction that he felt he
wanted to write in or was comfortable with. That in turn is Mark’s right and
responsibility as a creator – if it’s not his cup of tea and if he can’t
bring his “A” game to a project then that’s okay, no harm no foul. I respect
Mark for making his decision as I respect Bill for giving Mark the first
crack at the new storyline.
Mark has also been given every opportunity to work on other books here at
Marvel.
But like with every creative change at Marvel, this change has been met with
much “fanfare” and fear. Let me assure the fans that while Mark will be
missed, the high quality standard of FF stories that Mark and company have
set, will continue.
As for Bill Jemas writing the monthly FANTASTIC FOUR title, and the “wacky
suburban dramedy” description, with all due respect to Mark, neither is
accurate. A new FF writer will be announced shortly, but it won’t be written
by Bill and won’t be as described. Everyone getting upset and angry over
this are getting upset and angry over nothing … or in other words,
business as usual. I’m in no way saying that Mark is misleading the fans,
only that he may be mixing up stories he’s heard and judging the new
direction on what was a very initial pitch that was circulated over a month
ago.
Furthermore, this isn’t a cost saving measure nor is it some flight of
fancy. This is a change in direction for a Marvel title requested by the man
who schemed the Ultimate Universe, had the guts to tell Origin and turned
Marvel’s publishing business around in less than two years. But hey, what
does he know. Yes, Bill is indeed working on an FF-related concept, but then
so am I, along with a couple of Marvel’s top creators and perhaps that’s
where the stories get mixed up … but more on that when the time is right.
Finally, I want to get to all of the anti-Epic garbage that has been hitting
the streets. It seems that there are those that feel that perhaps the best
way to get accepted by Epic is to scare off anyone who wants to submit.
Think about it, put out some nasty rumors that this is all some evil plot by
Bill, that there are 3000 submissions gathering dust, that the editors
aren’t reading pitches and the fewer people that submit, the better the
chances of those that are already through the door. Epic is no more nor
less than what we’ve stated from the beginning. We feel that there is a
wealth of undiscovered talent out there in need of a break. We honestly
feel that there are stories out there that need to be told that are just
looking for the right opportunity. If you believe all of this Epic
conspiracy nonsense, then you’re falling into a horrible trap.
See ya in the funnybooks,
I’m not even sure it’s completely fair to credit his business acumen either- since the most of the film deals were in place before Bill and Joe took the reigns (and considering those were cheap film deals to boot, I’d doubt he’d take credit for those, anyway). Quesada brought in Kevin Smith, Garth Ennis, Grant Morrison, Bendis, Millar, Allred, Dorkin, Doran, Rucka, and JMS.
The only things Jemas has done business wise for Marvel was no overprint (which was smart-for MARVEL ONLY-but could have been sold beter to the retailers. I know if one of my product vendors was taking shots on my business practices in a very public arena, I’d severely re-think continuing business with that vendor- especially if that vendor was using their new policy as a blanket excuse to either not ship purchased product, ship it late, or not be the product I was sold. But he was arrogant enough to believe- and was proven correctly- that no one in the direct market would drop Marvel wholesale no matter how they behaved), and U-Decide (which did shine a deserved light and brought hightened sales on Captain Marvel for a time).
So I’m completely sure it’s fair to say that’s he’s done the job on the business end either. And while I do (to an extent) understand why Jemas feels he needs to get in the trenches if he has to (even the company president works actively on the company’s products- it’s great for PR, and in most companies good for morale if the employees know the head of the company will not shy away from getting in the trenches)- the man currently has no talent as a writer, should not be allowed near a key title until he can develop his skills- earn his stripes. I think THAT would impress people more than continuing to take the reigns on high profile titles and failing- creatively and finacially.
I have to say that this development really upsets me. I have enjoyed Mark Waid’s take on the F4. The last issue was great. There was really nice dramatic moments, excellent build-up and a great cliffhanger of an end. This is what I want in my comics.
The idea that is being proposed seems too off-base. I do not think that I would like it. Also, while I have never read a thing written by Jemas, I have heard that his writing is poor. Accordingly, Marvel is going to lose this reader at the end of Waid’s run.
I hope Waid all the best in his future projects and hope to read his work again.
–Michael
I can only infer that the Marvel statement is from Joe Q., based on some of the statements, and since there is no credit listed.
As for the “Honey, I Shrunk The Kids” approach to the FF, wouldn’t this be a better approach to making an Ultimate FF comic? Start from scratch, and build the FF up in a different way. Just like Ultimates is not The Avengers, just a group having members with the same names and abilities. I can see a 12 issue mini series that establishes the characters, no powers, and ends as they are about to be launched into space. Then, if sales warrant it, a continuing series. After all, the FF was mentioned in a throwaway line in an early issue of Ultimates. I can certainly see some good writer having fun with something like this. Interested PAD?
I really don’t think Marvel actually cares about the comic book sales.
The stories are getting thinner and thinner. If a book comes out on time 3 months in a row it’s big news. I’m done with marvel. They wouldn’t have the movies without the books. It won’t belong until these movie franchises dry up and they’ve alienated all there fans.
I had never read a comic book in my life. Several months ago, someone on RPG.net told me, insisted to me that I would love Fantastic Four.
He was right, I did. I have bought every issue since (January). Now he’s telling me that the writing is about to change, and points me here.
I’m saddened by this.
There is no way I can bring myself to believe that Bill Jemas is this stupid. Like many of you Mark Waid has brought me to the Fantastic Four. Over the years I’ve read the book on and off and frankly no run has been able to keep my attention for long until this current one. Unless Jemas has a huge creative team to follow Waid it makes no sense that he would fire him, and if he is in fact the creative team that is following Waid then he’s only shot himself in the foot. I never read Marville, looked like utter hockum to me and judging from fan reaction it was. What gives the man the idea that he can now follow what for all intents and purposes is a short but succesful room. Mark Waids name brought readers to the book just as Bill Jemas name will drive readers away. The only reason I can see for this is that Jemas truly wants to destroy the marvel universe and replace it with his own “baby” the ulitmate universe. If anyone else has any other ideas I’d love to hear them.
This is a letter from Marvel Editor-In-Chief Joe Quesada to all Marvel fans and followers, regarding recent rumors on Epic and the Mark Waid firing from Fantastic Four. The following letter contains Joe Quesada’s words, in their entirety:
Dear Comics Fans,
I’ve been busy as hëll of late and found my life much more enjoyable these last few months that I’ve avoided Internet message boards, but sometimes things get so out of hand that issues just need to be addressed and tackled head on.
First off, regarding Mark Waid’s exit from the FANTASTIC FOUR (pretty much the only part of this ‘story’ that’s completely accurate). Let me preface this by saying that Mark and I have been friends for years and years and I expect that that relationship won’t change over this creative decision. Mark is one of the most talented guys in the business and I have the utmost respect for what he does, but his departure from FF is now being siphoned through inaccuracies, mistaken impressions and hardcore enthusiasts inability to wait for the whole, real story before slitting their proverbial wrists and launching profanity-ridden grenades. Hey, what the heck, it’s so much more fun to be angry at Marvel even with only half the story.
Over a month ago Bill Jemas asked for a change of direction for the FF monthly title … business as usual and no different than asking for a costume change, a change of cast or story line. As President, it’s Bill’s right and responsibility to call for changes as he feels will benefit any Marvel title just as it is mine. This is not the first time such changes have been asked for and I certainly hope it won’t be the last.
Bill called up Mark and asked him personally to steer the book towards a new vision and Mark made it clear that it wasn’t a direction that he felt he wanted to write in or was comfortable with. That in turn is Mark’s right and responsibility as a creator – if it’s not his cup of tea and if he can’t bring his “A” game to a project then that’s okay, no harm no foul. I respect Mark for making his decision as I respect Bill for giving Mark the first crack at the new storyline.
Mark has also been given every opportunity to work on other books here at Marvel.
But like with every creative change at Marvel, this change has been met with much “fanfare” and fear. Let me assure the fans that while Mark will be missed, the high quality standard of FF stories that Mark and company have set, will continue.
As for Bill Jemas writing the monthly FANTASTIC FOUR title, and the “wacky suburban dramedy” description, with all due respect to Mark, neither is accurate. A new FF writer will be announced shortly, but it won’t be written by Bill and won’t be as described. Everyone getting upset and angry over this are getting upset and angry over nothing … or in other words, business as usual. I’m in no way saying that Mark is misleading the fans, only that he may be mixing up stories he’s heard and judging the new direction on what was a very initial pitch that was circulated over a month ago.
Furthermore, this isn’t a cost saving measure nor is it some flight of fancy. This is a change in direction for a Marvel title requested by the man who schemed the Ultimate Universe, had the guts to tell Origin and turned Marvel’s publishing business around in less than two years. But hey, what does he know. Yes, Bill is indeed working on an FF-related concept, but then so am I, along with a couple of Marvel’s top creators and perhaps that’s where the stories get mixed up … but more on that when the time is right.
Finally, I want to get to all of the anti-Epic garbage that has been hitting the streets. It seems that there are those that feel that perhaps the best way to get accepted by Epic is to scare off anyone who wants to submit. Think about it, put out some nasty rumors that this is all some evil plot by Bill, that there are 3000 submissions gathering dust, that the editors aren’t reading pitches and the fewer people that submit, the better the chances of those that are already through the door. Epic is no more nor less than what we’ve stated from the beginning. We feel that there is a wealth of undiscovered talent out there in need of a break. We honestly feel that there are stories out there that need to be told that are just looking for the right opportunity. If you believe all of this Epic conspiracy nonsense, then you’re falling into a horrible trap.
See ya in the funnybooks,
JQ
though you guys might want to see this….you know just a spoon full of B.S.helps the medicine go down
Avi Green said:
“I myself have already opted not to bother about any of these movies in retaliation to Marvel’s behavior, and will not spend any money on their movies as a statement. An odd form of backlash to some, I suppose, but it could be an interesting one, to say the least.”
It is an odd backlash, because the movies and the comics are produced by different companies. It sends a more focussed message if you don’t buy the comics that trouble you.
F’rinstance, I saw “Spider-Man” and “Daredevil” but don’t buy their comics regularly; even Joe Straczynski can only occasionally lure me into buying a Spidey comic. In fact, I don’t subscribe to any Marvel comics, only selected DC titles and certain indies.
Getting back to the cover controversy for a second, the covers of “Marville” told me immediately, “This book is stupid.” A hasty look inside confirmed it. Maybe if they did deliberately deceptive covers on Marvel books, they might pick up some sales – for a short time.
OK, those “surprised” about Marvel going all ga-ga over the movie side should remember that back in…I guess it was 99 or 2000, Ari Arvad said something to the effect that he would like to see Marvel Comics become essentially just fodder for movies.
Secondly, Mark leaving FF just stinks with no perfume around to cover it up.
I personally am thinking of dropping every Marvel book I get(sorry PAD but this is just awful and you always have Star Trek), because I am just tired of the BS.Even with some books being as good as they are(Hulk,Captain Marvel) the disrespect I feel I get from the Marvel management makes me want to leave.
How the heck do you even work there Peter?
Col
It is an odd backlash, because the movies and the comics are produced by different companies. It sends a more focussed message if you don’t buy the comics that trouble you.
F’rinstance, I saw “Spider-Man” and “Daredevil” but don’t buy their comics regularly; even Joe Straczynski can only occasionally lure me into buying a Spidey comic. In fact, I don’t subscribe to any Marvel comics, only selected DC titles and certain indies.
True, and no, I don’t buy which comics are letting me down, and I’ve been refraining lately from the Amazing Spider-Man too recently (whereas DD I’ve only read a little of over the years). I think the reason why I must’ve thought of this was because I know that Marvel could prefer the movies and the profits they could make off of them, and as mentioned here, they do indeed seem to be relying more on the success of the movies to make money than they do on the success of their own books.
As a result, the idea I had could probably be to avoid both the books and the movies, if Marvel would rather rely on cinematic success, and sabotage the books in the process, supposedly to draw the interest of moviegoers, but of course, it’s apparent that even there, they’re not serious about getting them.
The Gods who control Marvel need to go back to square one. They’ve gotten too hung up on the Hollywood hype….
The firs thing they need to do is…RE-HIRE@JIM SHOOTER!!!!!
Things were EXCITING when he was in charge…right now, the only marvel books I read are Iron Man and the Avengers..I used to have subscriptions to almost EVERY title Marvel put out (that was during the Jim Shooter years…see what I mean????)
The last Marvel book I read regularly was Spider-Man and I stopped near the first year of the Clone saga.
When I read in advance what was going to happen with the clone saga, I dropped all Spider-Man titles like a bad habit, and I had grown up on Spider-Man. When it comes to Amazing Spider-Man, though, I’m glad to say I’m back. Besides PAD’s Captain Marvel, it’s the only other Marvel title worth buying. Just make sure you hone in on Amazing Spider-Man by J. Michael Stracynski and not the other Spidey titles. To start off, you’ll want to get the first trade paperback of JMS’s run. The first trade is The Amazing Spider-Man: Coming Home. Below is a list of all his Spidey trades thus far, in order:
The Amazing Spider-Man: Coming Home
The Amazing Spider-Man: Revelations
The Amazing Spider-Man: Until the Stars Turn Cold
The Amazing Spider-Man: The Life and Death of Spiders
Once you read Coming Home, you’ll want to check out Revelations right after, so I recommend picking up at least the first two at the same time if you happen to see both. On the other hand, if you only find Coming Home right away, go ahead and read it since it contains a complete story line.
The latest Amazing Spider-Man trade paperback, The Life and Death of Spiders, collects up to issue 50. On the cover of that trade, the title just says “The Amazing Spider-Man,” with no subtitle. J. Michael Stracynski’s name is at the top, though, and the subtitle, The Life and Death of Spiders, is on the spine.
All you need to know beforehand is a few things of what previous writers tied up prior to JMS’s run– Pete had a lab job but lost it because he kept cutting work, a result of being Spider-Man too much. And at the time, Mary Jane went missing and Pete spent a lot of time trying to find her. He eventually finds and rescues her from the clutches of a superhuman, no-name admirer. Soon after, as things more or less go back to normal, MJ separates from Pete. She cites how he’s never there, Pete’s vigilantism taking precedence over her at a second’s notice. (Yeah, not a great development, but to MJ’s credit she doesn’t split angrily but very calmly instead.) On the up side, MJ eventually makes her way back into the title during JMS’s run, just not right away.
That’s about it. Now you’re all caught up for Coming Home.
–Reggie