Before this starts popping up on assorted threads, I thought I’d address this via a separate entry. It was said by one poster:
PAD gets dissed in aintitcoolnews.com’s review of the Hulk movie. Harry Knowles who runs that site is an idiot.
Well, I leaped two miles over to AICN to see this “dissing.” Guys…all Harry Knowles said was that my work on the Hulk wasn’t his cuppa. He said that my work on the series defined the character for some, but it was never really his thing. I mean, unless there was something further down I missed, that was pretty much it.
To Harry Knowles, the pure rampaging Hulk was THE Hulk. Accept no substitute. He’s not the only person who feels that way, and that’s fine. Different strokes. And that’s not the way I ever tried to write the Hulk, so naturally my work wouldn’t appeal to him. He didn’t say “Peter David is an idiot” or “His work sucked” or “Anyone who liked his work is a schmuck.” He just said it wasn’t for him. Like the old days when Don Thompson would say, “For those of you who like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing you will like.” Fine. No harm, no foul.
I mean, there are people who didn’t like my work on the Hulk and, in writing about it, trashed everything about my career and my life, and considered it a normal way to mete out criticism. Knowles made a two sentence mention about the WORK, not about me personally, and moved on.
Nothing idiotic or disrespectful there.
PAD
• 
Yeah, I read that review, and when I got to that part I thought, “Well, this will cause a furor among fans.”
Seriously, I loved PAD’s work on Hulk, but I can see how other people wouldn’t.
And that’s ok folks!
Harry was giving everyone their own level of respect, and simply pointing out which version he liked best.
Now, go back to complaining about how much of a studio sell out he is.
😉
-Joe
So, on an obliquely related note… PAD, once the Hulk movie is released and you are no longer sworn to secrecy, can we look forward to your review of the film on this site?
I’ll probably write about it in my column. Have to save *something* for CBG.
PAD
I’m a fan of PAD’s HULK run (specifically the Gray Hulk arc, as that was more “the Hulk” for me — either a riff on Frankenstein or Mr. Hyde, you know). HULK 372 is still my favorite issue ever — the explosive transformation, the sight of Bruce begging for “just a shred of happiness” was heartbreaking. Wonderful. (I always thought PAD wrote a great Bruce Banner, a guy with a real personality and someone you could root for.) Some of the humor doesn’t age well, but hey, overall, it’s a great read.
Unfortunately, PAD’s run left a long shadow. Jenkins’s run, I thought, had major problems by trying to “do PAD” — and by that, I mean, focus on the psychological aspect and the issues with Bruce’s father.
This is a problem that Daredevil has had. I don’t think the book recovered from Miller’s run — in that, future writers tried to “do Miller” and never found their own voice.
I’d rather Bruce Banner be an “everyman” (though an everyman who is a flippin’ genius) than the product of an abusive childhood who was going to be insane anyway. Thus, I didn’t care for the MPD angle.
Still, even my least favorite Merged Hulk issues are far more enjoyable than what is currently out there, in which the Hulk rarely appears.
Personally, I loved Peter’s run on the Hulk.
Personally I think AICN wavers between honest insight, great fun and the occasional diversion into drivel.
Personally, Tom Baker will always be Dr.Who
To each his/her own writer/site and TimeLord…and take/don’t take it personally. 🙂
John
I’m kind of surprised that no one has brought up the story of the Hulk movie. It looks to me to deal very much with things brought up by Mr. PAD in “Incredible Hulk” issues (approximately) #375-377. Well, with the exception of the Gray Hulk. One thing that has bothered me about the other super-hero movies is that the original writers of the stories pretty much get ignored when it comes to getting credit where credit is due. Shouldn’t Chris Claremont have gotten a big credit for the basis of X2, the “God Loves, Man Kills” graphic novel…and shouldn’t PAD get some sort of credit for the Hulk movie (especially the child abuse angle that the movie seems to have)? Or does it all fall under the “work for hire” umbrella, with Marvel not having to give credits for stories that they own?
Um, sorry Barrymore, but it was Bill Mantlo who originally revealed Bruce Banner’s abused childhood. Peter just expanded on that. OK, maybe I like my comics as realistic as possible despite all the superhero/sci-fi elements, and not too convoluted, but I admit that Peter’s work on the Hulk was what made me a fan, and even though I prefer the Savage Hulk or the Grey Hulk, I loved the humour that Peter gave the “Merged” Hulk. Even if his stuff was/is very sci/fi and superheroic, the characters were all very human and convincing, and I must say that Peter is my favourite writer.
Oh yeah, pick up Peter’s ‘Hulk’ movie novelisation. It kicks ášš!!!
The comics writers should get credit for this sort of thing, but they don’t. I ran into Gerry Conway once shortly after the release of “Spider-Man,” a movie whose climax is lifted almost wholesale from comic book stories he wrote. I asked him if he got any kind of compensation for that, even a small fee. He smiled, shook his head, and said, “That’s show-biz.”
Once again, Peter, kudos for being the man who put the ‘cooler head’ in ‘let cooler heads prevail’…when many others end up being the ones who put the ‘jerk’ in ‘knee-jerk reaction’!!
Although aware of the character for many years….hëll, I seem to recall having one of those Aurora model kits back in the ’60s!….I started reading ‘The Incredible Hulk’ at issue # 201. Ee-yup. `Shrinking down to sub-atomic worlds, Jarella, and all that!!
Regardless, I think Len Wein wrote some dámņ fine stories!!
I remember looking forward immensely to each issue of the Stern/Buscema/Rubinstein run!! Great stuff from three superior talents!!
John Byrne had some interesting concepts that ran out of steam and punch pretty quickl,y and couldn’t hold up past the initial thrill of ‘Something New’. I’m almost ashamed to say that Bill Mantlo lost me once Rick Jones turned into Teen Hulk ( and if that was someone else at the helm, I apologise. But keep in mind, I did say:'(they) lost me’!!) .
The Hulk has long been a favorite Marvel hero for me, second only to Captain America!! And PAD’s tenure on the series remains a favorite run!
Although I will admit, at times, to thinking of The Pantheon as a group of coat-tail riding, thunder-stealing limelight hogs! But, boy, I sure do miss ’em every once in a while!!
Hooper
Never got to read enough of PAD’s Hulk run regularly. Any good collections to look into? I fondly remember #377, but that was pre-driver’s license, and I didn’t have access to a shop then.
“I’ll probably write about it in my column. Have to save *something* for CBG.”
To quote Brak… Aw, man. Not that I dislike CBG, it’s just that I no longer have a subscription and the store I most often frequent doesn’t carry it… but I’m curious enough about your opinion that I can make the trek to a store that *does.*
“Never got to read enough of PAD’s Hulk run regularly. Any good collections to look into?”
***I’m sure this site lists them all on the bibliography, but…
There’s GROUND ZERO, which is awesome (TIH 340-346, though I just recently learned that three or four pages were cut from issue 346…).
GHOST OF THE PAST, which reprints 397-400. Makes a good counterpoint to GROUND ZERO, in a way… same villain, much different outcome. It’s pretty great, although the fact that Keown was unable to draw the climactic chapter is tragic.
FUTURE IMPERFECT. A mini-series published circa TIH 400 though chronologically belonging between 416 and 417. I think even PAD, one of his own worst critics, said that there’s nothing he’d change about this one. It’s awesome.
BEAUTY AND THE BEHEMOTH has a great forward and afterward by PAD, and features various issues from his run… I think it’s issues 344, 372, 373, 377 and 466… I could be wrong about that, though.
There’s still the ghost of a possibility that there’s going to be a HULK VISIONARIES volume reprinting issues from PAD and Keown’s run (the Claremont and Byrne of TIH, in my opinion), and that — if it happens — will probably be f*cking great.
Hopefully it will reprint issues 369-377… the issues that are to PAD and Keown’s Hulk what the Dark Phoenix saga was to Claremont and Byrne’s X-Men. (Again, just my opinion…)
“Teen Hulk ( and if that was someone else at the helm, I apologise.”
Yeah, that was Al Milgrom at the helm, not Mantlo. Apology accepted. 😉
Hulk #377 was the first comic i bought as an adult. And i thought that it was a great thing.
I’ve had a similar discussion with customer when i managed the store and we agreed to disagree. There’s nothing really to debate, it’s all about personal choices.
*gets his PAD run of the hulk to read*
I’ll probably write about it in my column. Have to save *something* for CBG
At the risk of sounding a bit selfish, I hope the column gets reprinted here. I no longer take CBG (economic reasons) and won’t otherwise have a chance to see it.
Peter David: To Harry Knowles, the pure rampaging Hulk was THE Hulk.
Luigi Novi: Then he and others like him may like the film, as that’s the Hulk portrayed. I personally, didn’t care for it.
I invited Chris Batista, (who incidentally, penciled Captain Marvel #28), and he respectfully disagreed me, and said he really liked it.
Barrymore: It looks to me to deal very much with things brought up by Mr. PAD in “Incredible Hulk” issues (approximately) #375-377.
Luigi Novi: How so? #377 is my absolute favorite issue of Peter’s 12-year run, and the was NOTHING in the movie that touched upon that material. Although David Banner (he’s not named Brian, as in the comic) was megalomaniacally irresponsible with his son, he wasn’t abusive per se.
Peter’s run on The Incredible Hulk was one of the magnum opuses of comics in the 90’s, and it’s what first made me a fan of Peter’s. It was also the only way the Hulk was every interesting to me as a character. The movie didn’t have any of that (what it did have was an overabundance of needless split-screens and Home Improvement-esque scene transitions), and as a result, I didn’t find any of it compelling (though I did like it when he finally fought the military an hour and forty minutes into the film).
Btw, Peter, I mailed that press kit from the screening today. Enjoy. 🙂
Harry Knowles is still an idiot.
I could never take his so-called reviews seriously, especially after he wrote that he cried while watching “Armageddon.”
I used to work at an advertising company in Hollywood whose clients consisted mainly of movie studios, and many of us talked about how much of a sellout he is, heaping praise on any movie if he was given the royal treatment (tickets to the world premiere, etc.).
He has no integrity whatsoever, and the fact that many of the movie studios are fearful of a negative press from him is just frightening.
Knowles didn’t really bash Peter in that review. Like Peter says, people are entitled to their opinion. Of course Knowles’ happens to be dead wrong in this case.
Peter’s run on the Hulk made me love comics.
– Markisan
PAD:
I don’t follow the Hulk, and to be honest, I don’t anticipate going to see the movie. Frankly, the trailers make it look like a computer animated cartoon. But as I understand it you were behind the Hulk turning gray and intelligent. Any hoo, I was perusing the Marvel site contemplating sending them a script when I ran across the following Paragraph from, if I’m not mistaken, Bill Jemas:
Super-powers are just gobbledygook unless they have an underlying meaning. Johnny Storm has fire powers ‹ “Wouldn’t it be cool if Reed Richards built him an infrared power booster?” NO. Doc Ock has metal arms ‹ “Wouldn’t it be cool if they were adamantium?” NO. The Incredible Hulk is brutish and green ‹ “Wouldn’t it be cool if he turned intelligent and gray?” NO. We call those kinds of stories “writing a comic book about a comic book.”
1. I’d love to know what your idea is about the concept of superpowers as a metaphor style of comics, and
2. What do you think about the idea that you wrote a comic book about a comic book?
Argh! C’mon Luigi SPOILER TEXT!! It’s not that tough!
I could never take his so-called reviews seriously, especially after he wrote that he cried while watching “Armageddon.”
Well, to be honest, so did I. I didn’t read his review, but I know I got *very* misty eyed when the girl realized her father was going to sacrifice himself for the boyfriend. Being a father with daughters, naturally I was a total sucker for that sequence.
People bring their own priorities and issues to any film they see, and you never ever know what’s going to get you. I remember being astounded when Shana–a savvy movie-goer and very tough-minded kid–came completely unglued and cried copiously at the end of “Edward Scissorhands.”
I don’t know if Knowles has daughters, but I can easily see someone emphathizing enough with that moment in the film to get upset. I know I did.
PAD
“Harry Knowles is still an idiot.”
Yes he is.
I don’t allow his crap on the screen of my PC at home because I cannot tolerate the obscenities he spits out of his foul mouth. It’s one thing to curse, it’s another to use it to the hilt and to make insults while he’s at it. I most certainly don’t allow my three children, not even my 15 year old son, to go on his cesspool of stupidity, and I cannot see what the hëll makes him so popular with anyone other than subculture freaks. If I were anyone else here, I’d be boycotting his crap site by now.
. We call those kinds of stories “writing a comic book about a comic book.”
EClark…
I think this was covered in a previous forum… but I always wanted to add this 2 cents…
Jemas, who wrote shudder Marville — basically, a comic about a comic, slams on this?
And I don’t think he read the original Kirby/Lee Hulks… cause wasn’t he gray to begin with? And deviously clever?
Just wondering…
Travis
I made the original comment… didn’t mean to cause a stir, and looking back, “diss” wasn’t the right word to use. Just wanted to point out that PAD was mentioned (although unfavourably) in the review. But I stick by one thing:
Harry Knowles is an idiot.
Harry Knowles is the sexiest tomboy beanpole on the planet!
Oh, and shinfifo? Anyone who calls someone else an “idiot” in a public forum just because they have different opinions reveals their own less-that-admirable nature.
Case in point: Al Franken.
Harry Knowles isn’t an idiot because because of his opinions. He’s an idiot because of his brand of yellow journalism, his inability to write a coherent review, because of his lack of respect for both copyright law and the right of a filmmaker to control how his work is seen publically, and because he is so biased towards NRG, that he labels anyone who works even part time for NRG as a “droog,” an “automaton,” and a “monkey.” Roger Ebert doesn’t pull that crap in his reviews. He has class.
Marc Foxx: Argh! C’mon Luigi SPOILER TEXT!! It’s not that tough!
Luigi Novi: For what? I didn’t include any spoilers.
Maybe I’m splitting hairs, but “I did like it when he finally fought the military an hour and forty minutes into the film” seems spoilerish to me. Let’s just chalk it up to me being up later than usual…
GnuHopper – Never claimed I wasn’t an idiot, when it comes to many things I probably am. For example, it was idiotic of me to post the original comment without backing it up. However, I don’t claim to be a professional comment-poster; Harry Knowles fancies himself a “professional” movie buff / reviewer. The Hulk comment isn’t what makes me think he’s an idiot – read some of the other comments here for proof of that.
So, Locomotor, to sum up your point: Knowles is an idiot because he uses four-letter words to insult people on his crap site?
Just checking.
**Oh, and shinfifo? Anyone who calls someone else an “idiot” in a public forum just because they have different opinions reveals their own less-that-admirable nature.
Case in point: Al Franken.**
Don’t even try to sell that here.
Al Franken wrote a book called “Rush Limbaugh is a Big, Fat Idiot” for two reasons.
One, it’s true. Because I disagree with his opinions? No because that vile excuse for a human being (and I know this story is already widely known), did a bit on his show where he said they were going to show a picture of the White House dog and then they flashed a bad picture of Chelsea Clinton. Not only had she not done anything to Limbaugh but she was maybe a teenager, if that old. If that doesn’t make him a scumbag beyond belief, I don’t know what is.
Second, the book was written in response to years of obnoxious conservative commentators who (as they still do today) used name-calling, rumors and innuendo to insult anyone who didn’t want to roll back the calendar to 1950. Finally, Franken decided to give them some of their own medicine to see how they liked it and not surprisingly, they didn’t.
and I cannot see what the hëll makes [Harry Knowles] so popular with anyone other than subculture freaks
Hey cool. For a relatively intelligent, middle class family man, I really never considered myself a subculture freak.
I learn something new every day!
You know, PAD, Ingersol posts his new columns intersperced with the reprinting of his old columns….just a thought 🙂
the book was written in response to years of obnoxious conservative commentators who (as they still do today) used name-calling, rumors and innuendo to insult anyone who didn’t want to roll back the calendar to 1950. Finally, Franken decided to give them some of their own medicine to see how they liked it and not surprisingly, they didn’t.
If Mr. Franken believes that type of behavior is deplorable, then it’s a mystery to me why he wants to emulate it.
Oh, and as for the Chelsea story? I can remember dozens of bits from Saturday Night Live during Mr. Franken’s tenure on the show that were equally, if not MORE tasteless. Anyone remember “Stunt Baby”? Yet Mr. Franken apparently had no compunctions against associating with them.
A man trying to make a reasonable case against his opposition does NOT resort to calling them “a big fat idiot”, no matter what your political orientation.
Besides, it tends to hurt our big fat feelings.
Oh, and as for the Chelsea story? I can remember dozens of bits from Saturday Night Live during Mr. Franken’s tenure on the show that were equally, if not MORE tasteless. Anyone remember “Stunt Baby”? Yet Mr. Franken apparently had no compunctions against associating with them.
Are you honestly equating the two? You’re saying a tasteless comedy skit is the same thing as an adult using his news show to make fun of a specific child?
Quoting Jason…
“…reprint issues 369-377… the issues that are to PAD and Keown’s Hulk what the Dark Phoenix saga was to Claremont and Byrne’s X-Men.”
I very much agree… The most enjoyable comics I’ve ever read.
Since we’re talking about Al Franken now (not quite sure how that happened exactly, but fine with me):
Everyone here has a point, but they also seem to be wrong in a way.
Pack: “No because that vile excuse for a human being (and I know this story is already widely known), did a bit on his show…”
That’s not what makes Limbaugh an idiot, it’s why you don’t like him. It wasn’t Franken’s reasoning for the title. In the book, he admits to the title being for shock value rather than a reflection of personal issues he has with Rush.
Also, GnuHopper is right: Franken is guilty of equally tasteless humour on SNL, and was in the cast when Wayne’s World did their “Top 10 Things We Like About Clinton” list way back when Bubba was elected. Reason #2?
“Chelsea. While adolescence has been cruel…”
He may not have written it, but he did condone it. Of course, I do to. It was funny, and she was pretty ugly at the time. She’s a knockout now. Her feelings aren’t really important since she’s a public figure, subject to satire.
GnuHopper: “A man trying to make a reasonable case against his opposition does NOT resort to calling them “a big fat idiot”, no matter what your political orientation.”
He’s a satirist, not a pundit. His job is to point at things and tell us that they’re funny. Rush is a big, fat idiot.
Well, he’s really an unethical, confrontational, elitist pig with delusions of grandeur, but big, fat, idiot doesn’t bother me in spite of the fact that I consider Rush to be a very intelligent man — he’s well-spoken and educated.
Scavenger: “Are you honestly equating the two? You’re saying a tasteless comedy skit is the same thing as an adult using his news show to make fun of a specific child?”
When that specific child is a public figure? Yes it is. It’s about boundaries of good taste.
Back onto the topic at hand:
My ideal Hulk is the tragic figure, really. He doesn’t need to be the “Hulk Smash!” Hulk, but the element of tragedy is, to me, important to the story. Of course, when PAD was writing Hulk, I wasn’t reading Marvel. I was strictly DC at the time.
Of course, I did know what was happening to the character, and saw it as a good thing because there were two ways to look at it: A) The character had suffered long enough and deserved to be happy for once, and the Merged Hulk could have been a nice place to end the character’s story — a happy ending; a well-deserved Job-like ending.
B) Giving the character control over the power that had for so long ruined his life was a good setup for an even greater tragedy that would ultimately destroy everything again.
I did read one of the Pantheon TPBs and enjoyed it (The one where they decided they could no longer use Banner), and I also loved the issue guest-starring the Sensational She-Hulk. It was a perfect re-creation of John Byrne’s best work.
Also, I really enjoyed your Hulk’s presence in the Marvel Superheroes fighting game by Capcom.
So, it’s a case of “Let’s you and him fight.”
Although there are some David haters out there, I suspect this was done to upset Harry Knowles. The AICN sight has become very troubled; cries of “censorship” and “dictatorship” and “selling out” are everywhere. (There was even, briefly, a nasty animated cartoon slamming “Moriarty” and Knowles on the Net.)
Knowles is not a deliberately bad guy, although he is infuriating at times. I suspect Mr. D. might actually like talking to him about movies and comics. But he shouldn’t read Knowles’s reviews or try to post on AICN; Knowles’s writing is a taste hard to acquire.
On the subject of comments about PAD’s Hulk, did anyone see the final page of Tom DeFalco’s new Hulk Guide, where he said Peter was his favorite Hulk writer ever? And he said that in the context of mentioning the other major Hulk writers. I thought that was pretty nice. He also gave praise to Bobbie Chase.
I was a huge fan of Peter’s run, but I’m also a huge fan of the current Jones run.
I will say that Bruce Jones is starting to get a bit plodding, but it’s still better than most of the stuff Jenkins was doing (as an aside Jenkins was perfect for Peter Parker).
Still, the best Hulk stuff I’ve read in the last year was Hulk: The End by Peter. Wonder if Harry read that. There was some rampaging going on in that one sort of.
By Pack:
Second, the book was written in response to years of obnoxious conservative commentators who (as they still do today) used name-calling, rumors and innuendo to insult anyone who didn’t want to roll back the calendar to 1950. Finally, Franken decided to give them some of their own medicine to see how they liked it and not surprisingly, they didn’t.
Interesting as to how you lead an argument or whatever about what you describe as conservatives who used insulting language against anyone who didn’t want to roll back the calendar to 1950 after employing what you claim to be against in another argument with me a month or so ago in a thread where I was arguing about stereotypes in entertainment, which makes you no better than me.
Interesting as to how you felt that way, yet you went to all that trouble to point out on a website that isn’t even you own how you felt that my arguments/opinions were invalid and ridiculous, and you take them very personally.
Needless to say, Pack, if that’s how you’re going to behave on a weblog that doesn’t even belong to you, then your arguments bear no weight and they lose credibility.
Perhaps you’d care to explain why you resorted to insulting and contemptuous language when arguing with a perfect stranger when you didn’t have to? And, perhaps most importantly of all, perhaps you’d care to explain why you abused Mr. David’s weblog? Yes, why on earth did you abuse Mr. David’s website? Are you really a fan of PAD’s?
Don’t even try to sell that here.
Ah ah ah, Pack, this board isn’t your property, it is Peter David’s property, and you are therefore in no position to tell anyone who’s a guest here what they can or cannot talk about. That’s one more false step in maintaining credibility here for yourself. Exactly what are you trying to achieve by telling someone whom you don’t even know personally what not to discuss here? I suggest you apologize to Gnuhopper for your very unkind response.
By Matt Adler:
On the subject of comments about PAD’s Hulk, did anyone see the final page of Tom DeFalco’s new Hulk Guide, where he said Peter was his favorite Hulk writer ever? And he said that in the context of mentioning the other major Hulk writers. I thought that was pretty nice. He also gave praise to Bobbie Chase.
I’m glad to know that DeFalco was in charge of the Hulk guide if he was. I’d heard some time ago that a writer who may not know enough about the jade giant was going to be putting it together, and I was worried sick that Marvel was betraying the fans old and new again. If DeFalco’s in charge of the book, I’m glad. 🙂 I’d like to check it out I guess.
I think you’re thinking of the Hulk Encyclopedia, which is published by Marvel, and as far as I know the rumors you heard about that are accurate.
DeFalco wrote the Dorling Kindersley-published Hulk: The Incredible Guide, which is part of a series (he also wrote the Spider-Man one). It is very good, IMO.
That’s great news! Thanks, Matt.
You can’t be 33756 serious?!?
You can’t be 33756 serious?!?
You can’t be 33756 serious?!?
You can’t be 33756 serious?!?
You can’t be 33756 serious?!?