Boy, you guys really want your Buffy discussions, don’t you. Okay, fine.
Well, I liked this episode a heck of a lot. I’ve been seeing fan criticisms of it and I don’t agree with a whole lot of them.
Criticism #1–The Wannaslays are annoying and the show’s starting to look like “Facts of Life.” Putting aside that Buffy could kick Mrs. Garrett’s ášš, let’s remember how fairly unpromising Buffy herself was when she first started up, both in the movie and in the flashback sequences shown in the series. She was as much an airhead or worse, and that was when she *already* had been activated. It’s not really fair to hold the Wannaslays up to the same standard that it’s taken Buffy seven years to achieve. Kendra was trained nearly from birth, and Faith hit the ground running, but one got the feeling she was probably able to slap people up oneside and down the other even before she go the power.
Criticism #2–Buffy should have been armed in the Thunderdome throw down with the Ubervamp. Possibly, but I can see her reasoning. One of Buffy’s strengths has always been her ability to improvise. The point she was trying to make to the girls was that, no matter what situation you’re in, if you rely on your innate abilities and think fast on your feet, you will win. If she’d gone in armed with sword and axe, the lesson would have been, “Be sure to be heavily armed.” If the girls had taken that lesson to heart and then been in a situation where they’d been deprived of weaponry, they might well have frozen.
Once again Giles neither removes his coat nor touches anything. Yes, when he stood in the wind, the wind muffed his hair, but some allowances have to be made for the realities of filming. On a cold day, you’ll see mist coming out of Spike’s mouth if they’re outdoors, and since vampires don’t breathe, that shouldn’t be the case (and how DOES he blow out smoke, now that we’re thinking about it?) The point is, they’re still being coy, Giles might be dead, and this is the First. Scuttlebutt is that it’s a red herring. Possibly. But if it is, I stand by my assertion that some spectacularly bad writing was done in order to support the red herring (that Buffy and Co. didn’t hug Giles upon his return is just ridiculous. That the gentlemanly Englishman helped none of the girls with their bags is out of character. And his defeatist attitude was just disheartening.)
Criticism #3: If the First’s agents eliminated the Watcher’s Council through the expedient of blowing up their HQ, why the hëll doesn’t he eliminate the Slayers now that they’re mostly gathered in Buffy’s house? Well, several possibilities. First, they’re not ALL there. And second, he doesn’t want to kill them all. He has some other plan, some other use for them. Keep in mind, we’re only at the halfway point of the season, and in previous years at similar halfway points, we didn’t have a full grasp of what the Big Bad had up his sleeve. At this point in season 5, we didn’t know what Glory wanted. In season 4, Adam wasn’t built yet by now. In season 3, we didn’t know what the Ascension was and Faith hadn’t gone bad yet. And in season 2, Angel hadn’t lost his soul. So there’s still more developments to be seen, and the First may well have far more up his instangible sleeve than just killing all the Slayers.
So we’ll see. I think it’s pre-empted next week, though.
PAD
• 
I agree with you on your reactions to this past episode’s critics. When you’re still training with weapons, a weapon becomes somethign your enemy can take from you and use against you.
Of course, I’m neither a ninja nor a soldier, so I’m just taking this nugget of wisdom from too much adventure fiction.
I’m also enjoy the chemistry between Willow and the Wannaslay (whose name escapes me). Willow’s “geez, this is a kid, I don’t want to get involved with her” discomfort makes for some real amusing scenes. I hope we don’t see a “What do you mean you’re a lesbian? Ewwww!” scene or something similiar. Of course, that might make for some good TV as well.
Dawn and Andrew were funny as well. I was thinking as I watched this that if they did a Buffy: he Next Generation he might make an interesting member of the Scooby gang. Williow, Xander, Dawn, Spike, Andrew and maybe some other kids her age or something would be an interesting couldron of drama.
I’m hoping Giles isn’t dead. And if he is, I’m hoping he’s not evil. That’d just suck.
I’d been thinking the last few episodes that the main reason Buffy hasn’t been slaughted like so many Watchers by the First is simply because Firstie isn’t capable of killng her.
I think with the word from the Oracle that Buffy’s resumed (exhumed?) existence is what let TFE out of its box, it’s probable that killing her now would now undo its work.
And at any rate, keeping her alive as a rallying point for the SIT remnants makes sense to get them all in one basket, before going on to kill Faith (who, so long as she remains offscreen is probably safe).
I’d like to add one point to the discussion:
The building with supposedly the Watcher Council in it that was blown up some episodes ago was not the same as the one shwon in the establishing shot earlier on in the same ep (the recapper on Television Without Pity also mentioned this fact).
So was this just a really bad screw-up or could it have a deeper meaning or be a hint?
I Suspect it’s the first option, but I’m still surprised how such a fairly obviousl fault could happen.. it’s not like that’s a tiny detail like wind-blown hair or breath in cold air.
Well, we’ve discovered a way of detecting the First; it’s apparently unable to do a decent Southern accent. Unfortunately, odds are that the real Giles couldn’t do such either.
Btw, someone’s been doing a LiveJournal in the persona of the First. It’s reasonable, but the best part are the replies to the various posts.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/thefirstevil
Oh, three other bits I had some problems with; 1) Willow’s still able to do casual telepathy, including picking up on a “call” from Buffy when she wasn’t expecting such, and this hasn’t been mentioned/used previously this season? Foreshadow something like this with more than a “What?!”.
2) My but Xander’s shot up in the workworld. Now he’s apparently in charge of both Sunnydale High construction *and* the public library. He’s been running a crew for just a couple of years, and apparently has an absence rate to match Buffy’s college attendance.
3) Hmm. Kennedy is from a very rich family, and has been getting training for close to 10 years now (crossbow since 8, and as I recall Giles wouldn’t let Buffy play with arrows until she’d mastered the quarterstaff), so apparently she’s been with her family while in training. What do they think of her disappearance, and is she a source of financial support for the Scoobies, assuming Giles doesn’t have signatory power over the Council’s accounts by this point.
OK, 4). Gee, awful lot of very untalented (re: scene in basement) Substitute Slayeraires who manages somehow to survive despite their Watchers all being killed.
I spent most of the episode watching Giles to see if he touched anything/one, and unless my reception was really bad, didn’t he lean against the back of a chair/couch in Buffy’s living room at one point? If the First is completely intangible, it wouldn’t be able to do that.
Unless I just imagined the whole thing.
My theory is that Giles isn’t there physically and probably wasn’t in that house physically either when he was supposed to get his head cut off by the First agent. No doubt, a surprise he has in store for the First.
Unless Giles is supposed to be a ghost during the Ripper series (which is about ghosts).
Well.. Willow has been compared to Phoenix in the past, so the telepathy is a given. 😉
The Watcher’s Building: A friend of mine suggested that the mysterious different exploding building might have been a late change made for reasons of sensitivity to 9/11 — the building shown in the establishing shot has two distinct towers; the one that blows up has three. I’ve never gone back and looked at the episode, so I won’t even claim to remember whether the two towers/three towers thing is even there.
So the First is incorporeal. It sees and hears how, then? Yeah, I know — magic and/or telepathy. Still, the image of the First as Mr. Magoo gave me a good laugh last night when I thought about what complete immateriality would entail.
Cheers, Jon
Oh.. one thing I noticed.
When the Ubervamp was holding Buffy up by the neck, Buffy paused. I think she came to the realization that the First needs her alive.
You would think that, since they know that the First’s “personas” are intangible that they would start shaking hands with everyone on a regular basis. Pretty easy way to tell don’t you think?
Fazhoul
I also noticed Giles apparently leaning on a chair, which would be another strike against the “he’s the First” theory. Additionally, do we have any evidence that the First is capable of bilocation? If it’s in the house as Eve, why be in the house as Giles as well?
Quick observation. The oracle-thing hints that Buffy still being alive is what’s messing things up and allowing the First to be active.
Everyone seems to assume it was Buffy being brought back by the gang that caused this. But what if it was the first time she came back from the dead, at the end of Season 1, that brought this trouble on.
It was shortly after that there were two slayers. And the First became active after Buffy died the first time.
I’m sure that’s how Faith is going to work into this somehow. Perhaps the only way to bring balance back into things is if both Slayers have to die a single new Slayer is chosen.
‘Tis a thought, at any rate…
_craig
In a previous episode, the First tried to trick Willow into committing suicide. Now “Giles” has Anya take him to a clairvoyant (not precognitive) demonic oracle who says that Buffy’s resurrection is the reason for the First being active. How much do you want to bet that “Giles” mentions in earshot of Buffy that if she was to die that it would probably solve all of their problems with the First?
Has anyone noticed if the First impersonated more than one person simultaneously in past episodes? If it can’t, how was it impersonating the Slayerette and Giles at the same time while Giles and Anya were with the oracle?
And shouldn’t someone have made it clear to the Slayerettes that Faith not Buffy would have to die for one of them to be activated?
Another spot that Giles definitely shows some corporealness (is that a word?) is in the alley where he and Anya are talking to the demon who opens the gate to the Eye…Giles definitely leans back against a trashcan and uses it as support.
I don’t watch Buffy, but this caught my attention:
On a cold day, you’ll see mist coming out of Spike’s mouth if they’re outdoors, and since vampires don’t breathe, that shouldn’t be the case (and how DOES he blow out smoke, now that we’re thinking about it?)
In theory, Peter (and forgive me if this doesn’t answer the question you’re asking, this is how I interpret what you said), though a vampire doesn’t need to breathe to survive, it would still be necessary to draw in breath to operate the larynx. Further, it’s not implausible that a vampire might simply keep breathing just because (“old habits die hard”, and like that). If Spike or another vamp breathes hard after running or other strenuous activity, that’s a weakness of using human actors to play non-human roles, and there’s really not much to be done about that until digital actors replace the flesh-and-blood ones permanently. Spike’s breath misting in the cold could be explained as his having fed fairly recently (the vampiric body, according to some other sources — I can’t say about Buffy, but I assume it holds true — doesn’t generate heat independantly, since it doesn’t need it to stay alive, but if the blood running through its systems is freshly drawn from a living victim, then it would remain warm for some time, the vampire’s body acting as a sort of thermos — keeps hot things hot!), the heat from the blood raising the temperature of any air inhaled either for speech or by habit.
If that’s not what you’re asking, then I don’t know the answer, because as earlier stated, I don’t watch Buffy. I do love theoretical fictional pseudo/cryptoscience, however.
It’s not clear if the First can bilocate, because we’re not sure in all cases that a dead person we’ve seen is the First. The only ones we’re sure of are Cassie, Eve and Buffy-as-seen-by-Spike (plus the rundown of past villains at the end of the season premiere). The question marks are Joyce, Warren and Giles.
(I’m inclined more towards believing Warren was the First than I was before because of the scene where he morphed into Jonathan. Warren was behaving as a ghost exactly as one would expect, but I think Jonathan would have been a lot whinier if that were really him.)
I will reiterate that incorporeal Giles is not necessaily First Giles. I suspect everyone will put their own spin on the scene with the Eye to promote their own viewpoint, so here’s mine: If Giles is the First, what did it gain from the visit to the Eye? It didn’t learn anything new, and I don’t think the “she belongs dead” discussion is going to have much impact on the Scoobies at this point. (The repercussions were pretty much dealt with and played out last season; they already coped with the creation of a demon from the spell, plus Giles chewing Willow out over it, plus Buffy’s season-long gloom–I don’t think that they’re going to be so guilt-wracked as to have any significant effect on their morale.)
Also, the First wouldn’t have anything to gain by their finding out Buffy’s role in its scheme. Why would it try to make Buffy kill herself when it could have had the Ubervamp kill her?
All in all, if Giles (and Joyce)are the First, it’s playing a game far more convoluted than we’ve seen any suggestion of so far; if anything, the First has shown a tendency to keep pushing too far, as witness Cassie’s scene with Willow. Likewise, it would be going to great lengths to achieve what so far seem to be dubious results (would Dawn not have listened to her mother without the big show with the demon?), while if there’s another force at work here it makes a good deal more sense.
Although I could be wrong about the scene with the Eye; we’ll have to see how it plays out next time.
My own theory, BTW, is that they’re going to re-merge Buffy with the main slayer line, either by transferring someone else’s Slayerhood (Faith’s or her successor’s) to her or transferring the mantle from Buffy entirely, though that last part depends on this being the final season.
Okay, here’s a thing: I just watched “Amends” again — the third season episode that introduced The First — and it seemed pretty dámņ corporeal when it, as Jenny Calendar, was stroking Angel’s hair. So what’s up with that?
Also, I have to agree with the point that Giles was in the same room as The First. I don’t think it can be in two places at once. I think Giles might still be dead … but I don’t think he’s The First.
I also think that oracle thing was the silliest thing I’ve ever seen. “This is Thunderdome” was cool, though. 🙂
The biggest problem I had with this episode, and the one before it, is that they were so sloppy. If Giles is the First, and they’re working really hard to make us think he is, then they’re making an awful lot of mistakes with respect to, for instance, leaning against furniture. Also the floor keeps creaking when he walks. And if he isn’t, I don’t see how they’ll explain the jacket thing or the lack of hugs.
And in my opinion, the criticism is not that Buffy was weapon-less in the Thunderdome (because I can see the point she was trying to make to the SITs) but that she was weapon-less in the previous meetings, including the previous episode. She went chasing after the SIT that the Ubervamp killed completely sans weapons, which is entirely out of character. When faced with the fact that the Ubervamp possessed only _some_ of the normal vampire weaknesses (sunlight but not staking) she decided it was unkillable — she’s not that dumb. This level of sloppiness, in order to set up the story they wanted to tell (the surprise beheading in the Thunderdome) is inexcusable. If you can’t find a way to tell your story without being sloppy, then maybe it’s not appropriate to tell that story, and maybe it isn’t worth telling.
I’ve got no clue whether Giles is dead–or even Giles. But after watching this episode, I had an evil thought. Bear with me a moment here.
“Showtime” was episode 11 this season, and the rumors are flying that there’s going to be a big reveal in episode 13. Everyone seems to be expecting the Awful Truth About Giles. But what if that’s just a bit of misdirection on the part of Whedon and company? What if while all the fans are hitting rewind to see if Giles is solid this episode, the Buffy writers are getting ready to pull a trick they haven’t pulled for a few years–a trick that no one’s expecting because after all the First is… well, the First.
What if the First is this season’s “Little Bad”?
A few years? They did that last season. Which big bad are you talking about?
If Sarah Michelle leaves at the end of the season, they could pull a mystical “brain switcheroo” to keep “Buffy” while the actress Sarh Michelle leaves.
She won’t choose Dawn, acccording to Joyce. – Of course, Dawn could still voulunteer.
– Pure idle speculation
If Giles is the First, and they’re working really hard to make us think he is, then they’re making an awful lot of mistakes with respect to, for instance, leaning against furniture.
This is the argument I see being used most often against this theory – Giles leaned against this, Giles leaned against that – and seems, to me, to be the silliest. The First, when impersonating people, is all about illusion. If it can look like anyone it wants, then why can’t it look like it’s leaning against a chair? (Think about the mime’s trick of leaning against an invisible wall.)
Unless somebody actually throws the chair through Giles, there’s no way to tell it’s just an illusion … which is, therefore, markedly different than, say, shaking hands with the First in question.
I personally see them working toward killing off Buffy and having Dawn emerge as the next slayer. Remember, Dawn IS buffy genetically, so if a new slayer is chosen, wouldn’t it make sense to choose the same one “again”?
But yeah, I get the distinct impression that the first is going to use a new weapon against them that will be the new “big bad.”
And no, I don’t think Giles is the first, especially after the oracle scene, because he wouldn’t want the scoobies to know the first’s only possible weakness.
I think the whole Giles not touching thing is a red herring…! i think later on in the series he will suggest doing something that is very “first” like and people will asume he is trying to do away with Buffy etc.
Just an idea!
And no, I don’t think Giles is the first, especially after the oracle scene, because he wouldn’t want the scoobies to know the first’s only possible weakness.
You’re assuming the Oracle was genuine. If “Giles” is TFE, then the whole thing was a big fake. After all, the conclusion drawn from it was “This whole thing is happening because Buffy is alive, and because we raised her” – suggesting a) that it’s maybe best for Buffy to die again, and b) demoralizing her support squad.
I agree with most of PAD’s comments, except the part about sloppy writing around Giles. My guess is that he’s not the First at all and that all the staging is in place to make us think he is. There’s nothing to suggest, actually, that he hasn’t hugged the Scoobs or helped the girls with their luggage — just that we haven’t actually seen it onscreen. There was a time jump of some significant period from Giles’ sudden appearance cutting to his speech to the crew.
Actually, in my mind, the really sloppy writing is if he IS the First, because that would lead us to believe that in all this time, nobody tried to hug or touch him even offscreen.
Paul F. P. Pogue
Hey everyone… check this out. http://www.livejournal.com/users/thefirstevil
Possibily the funniest thing I’ve read in the while. Who knew that the First Evil had a blog?
//”Beyond Thunderdome”//? Nope. Admitting to a smaller theft to cover up a greater theft.
They really lifted the sequence from //The Dark Knight Returns #2//, where Batman does a very public battle with the bad guy to rally support to his side. Buffy does the same thing here.
Peter,
Actually, it looked like Giles DID touch something this week. There’s a scene early in the show (before he and Anya go to the Vortex Dimension to talk to the stupid-looking eye demon) in which he’s leaning forward. His position is that of someone leaning on a chair. (Although, you can’t see any chair that he’s leaning on, or whether he’s leaning on anything.) Still, I played this scene over a few times on my TiVo and when he stands up, there is definately a sound as he straightens up, a slight noise that sounds like a chair moving. Could have been a mistake, or could have been a subtle bit.
But I don’t believe he’s the First, now, because if he is, then the First was able to be in two places at the same time (Buffy’s house as both Giles and Eve). Although the show has played fast and loose with whether the First can acutally appear as two dead people at the same time, making it appear that it has, the show has never definitely established that it can. I happen to believe it can. And as Giles and Eve have appeared together, I don’t believe they’re one and the same.
As for Giles not touching anyone, the fact that he’s not the First doesn’t mean he’s not a ghost of some kind (although, as talk of RIPPER has started up again, I doubt he’s even dead). I think Giles may be astral projecting from wherever he is, and that’s why the no touching.
My biggest question in the show was, when did Buffy, Willow and Xander become adept at telepathy? I know Willow and Tara did it last year, but they were both withches with a special bond. But they’ve never before established that Willow ever set up a teep bond with the other Scoobies.
Them’s my thoughts, anyway.
Bob
You know, I think I disagree. Buffy couldn’t kick Mrs. Garrett’s ášš. I mean, sure, she has super-powers, but have you heard that old lady scream? She’s terrifying. Also, she seems to be able to bend young women to her will. Jo started out a rebel, but then came the poofy eighties hair. Explain that, if not demonic possession.
Actually Bob, they did establish the telepathy before. In season 6’s premiere, Willow was on top of a crypt telepathically giving directions to the rest of the crew (Buffy was dead at the time). Xander, Anya, Giles and whoever else was there all communicated with her that way – so it has been done.
By the way, maybe it’s just because I love the show so much but I find nothing wrong with this season – to me it’s incredible. Love reading the theories but the bottom line is that I can’t wait for Tuesday nights at 8 every week.
I think they all used this ability to great effect on the first episode of season 6 (name of ep escapes me) which had Willow on top of a tomb in a cemetary commanding the “troops”; Anya, Xander, Dawn, Spike, etc and I thought they talked back to her…
Nobody’s mentioned this bit of scenic evidence- (maybe cuz it could go either way) When speaking to the demon in the backalley, Giles moved out of the way for Anya and the demon. And there’s the scene where Giles crouched in between the Slayerettes, although it’s quite red herring-ish.
And hey! The Coven’s involved! Or are they? Willow spoke to the Coven on the phone, so ostensibly, the Coven is the real deal. So… as Miracle Max might diagnose, Giles isn’t completely dead.
They’re another major player to consider. It could be possible Giles is dead but the Coven resurrected him somewhat- but not exactly, since last year we were told that resurrecting people was a no-no.
Willow and her magic use has been highlighted as a plot point. Much has been made of the First’s ability to infiltrate her via her magic use… and the First apparently seemed to be using reverse psychology on her in the shape of Dead Poet Girl (don’t remember her name sorry)- regarding her magic use. So, could the Coven be severely compromised- taken hold of by the First? Could explain how the First is getting it’s intel- they’re doing it for 1st. Aaaand my idea about Giles being resurrected by the Coven also gains another dimension- it could explain his subuded nature and odd behavior.
A few mentions have been made of Giles’s RIPPER. I wonder if Joss would make such significant use of that series in this storyline, considering the significant disparity in the number of viewers who saw RIPPER and the audience who watches BUFFY. I would think the clues we need will be in BUFFY. Any other clues taken from RIPPER or the comics, would be superfluous and simply a “neato, continuity/canon offscreen!” We do so love our continuity/canon.
Y’know, I haven’t seen anyone mention “ALL THE PRETTY MAIDS,” a Spike & Dru novel which featured Spike being hired out to wipe out the Slayer line. (I know- canon’s always questionable regarding novels.) The novel was pretty good.
eddie
Couple of notes:
To the last poster: RIPPER is still entirely theoreical; it has not been determined if it will ever be created. People referring to RIPPER as proof of anything are referring to the fact that it might be difficult to create the series if the main character is dead.
As someone else said, the realities of filming with real people should be taken into account when figuring out whether Giles is corporeal or not. Floor creaks and the (possible) sound of a chair budging when he stops leaning on it prove nothing (except, possibly, that there’s not an unlimited budget to work with here).
The most significant evidence that Giles is or is not corporeal would be what would happen in an unexpected situation; if someone hit or pushed Giles, or if there was a earthquake or something.
Hey, has there ever been an earthquake on BUFFY? This is California (though we don’t quite know where Sunnydale is, and I don’t know that everywhere in the state is geologically unstable).
Possible spoiler: I believe I read that Faith would, indeed, be showing up late this year.
Everywhere in the state is in fact NOT geologically unstable, thank you very much. Sunnydale is — I believe — supposed to be in the Santa Barbara-ish area (judging by a couple quick on-screen maps and the predominantly spanish architecture). And yes, there was an earthquake in the season one finale.
There was also an earthquake in the middle of season 4, when a group of demons tried to open up the hellmouth under the library in the ruins of Sunnydale High. It was also the episode where Spike discovered he could beat up and kill demons. (I think the episode was called “Doomed” or something.)
They should bring in the Watchers led by Joe Dawson – from Highlander, as a different sect of Watchers
I think a Buffy/Higlander crossover would be awesome-maybe it could even give Adrian Paul’s career a little shot in the arm. Before this happens, however, it would be keen for the scoobies to run into Angel’s crew again someday.
Um…also,.. in response to Randall’s comment earlier-I don’t know about Mrs G vs Buffy but a Natalie/ Willow death match would be cool.
Criticism #1–The Wannaslays are annoying and the show’s starting to look like “Facts of Life.”
I don’t find the slayers-in-training, as characters, annoying. I find the actresses who are playing them annoying. And their accents are painful to listen to. And this is coming from someone who put up with both Spike’s fake English accent and Angel’s fake Irish accent. Oh, and the come-ons from the wannabe slayer who keeps hitting on Willow are just creepy.
On the subject of Giles: His visit to the oracle makes me think he’s the real thing. He could, of course, be using the oracle’s prophecy to manipulate Buffy into carrying out the-master-plan-whatever-it-is, but that would require The First to demonstrate a lot more brainpower than we’ve seen so far.
However, even if Giles is really Giles, he may have come back with some funny stuff–literally or figuratively–stuck inside his head.
Also, his corporeality, or lack thereof, may be a red herring. After all, The-First-as-Buffy did kiss Spike. The First may not be able to manipulate objects, but s/he can apparently manipulate people’s sensory perceptions.
If the First is supposed to be somewhat intangable and not be able to touch anything, wasn’t Cassie ( I think thats her name, the dead poet chick) sitting in a chair across from Willow when they were having there little talk? And as for can the first be in two places at once thing, didn’t it appear to Dawn at her house at the same time as it appeared to Willow as Cassie?
Just wondering.
We’re don’t know yet if it was the First Evil who appeared as Joyce to Dawn, or if it was really Joyce herself.
I don’t watch Buffy, but this caught my attention:
On a cold day, you’ll see mist coming out of Spike’s mouth if they’re outdoors, and since vampires don’t breathe, that shouldn’t be the case (and how DOES he blow out smoke, now that we’re thinking about it?)
In theory, Peter (and forgive me if this doesn’t answer the question you’re asking, this is how I interpret what you said), though a vampire doesn’t need to breathe to survive, it would still be necessary to draw in breath to operate the larynx.<<
You’re probably right about the larynx thing, but here’s the problem: They’ve made a life and death point of saying vampires don’t breathe. Back at the end of the first season, Buffy had drowned and needed mouth to mouth. Xander and Angel were there, and Angel specifically said he couldn’t do it because he doesn’t breathe and therefore has no breath to force into Buffy’s lungs.
PAD
Sudden wild-man, out-of-control, almost certainly wrong thought about what might be up with Giles:
Episode 13, the rumored Giles Reveal ep, comes along. As before, he’s nervous around the others and just isn’t acting right. In the last act, he looks extremely Not Right and excuses himself. Alone in a room, he grabs his arm and starts twitching. “Oh, no,” he grumbles. “Not NOW.”
His face starts getting screwy, expensive morphing effects kick in.
Glory looks down at her British twill suit and then looks around. “Well. Isn’t THIS an interesting turn of events. And what the HÊLL am I wearing?” Cut to black.
Current Vegas odds on this happening: 98-1 against.
I’m betting on Giles actually being a spirit, not able to go on to his rest until he helps Buffy one last time. However, he is very shaken and demoralized, because he can’t touch anything. The next big shock will be someone noting he is intangible and accusing him of being the First. He’ll then be even more demoralized, as he tries to convince everyone that he’s an ally, not an enemy. Finally, his lack of material substance will make him the key to defeating the similarly intangible First. The season (series)finale will have him going off to his final rest with the Scoobies tearfully saying goodbye and that they’ll never forget him.
Or the Glory thing that Paul F.P. Pogue suggested. That would be pretty darn funny.
Angel did say that in the end of the first season. Thought I wouldn’t be suprised if they changed that.
I did find one intreasting thing though. Picked up the S3 DVD’s last weekand watched ‘Amends’ over again. They do show the First touching angel several times. In one scene while it’s Jenny, it/she not only playes with his hair but also moves his head a little bit.
Don’t forget – there were two mystical beings with Dawn – Joyce, and a figure in black battling her.
Also, the idea that Giles hand was cut off could still be a valid idea if he has concealed his injury with a spell. He has no arm there, but it looks like he does.
I’m loving the various “bring back” ideas in the discussion…
By all means bring in Jim Brynes as the same character from Highlander. The show could probably make a deal for the rights to him. Even if Adrian Paul isn’t available there’s Methos/Adam and *not dead* Richie as possible complications.
I like the idea of Giles being brought back, even at the cost of him being “not right”.
Personal hopes are more on the mircale max level, where he’s gravely injured in England and is astrally projecting to the US with the help of the coven.
— Rachel
On the First being able to touch Angel in Amends – The Harbringers chanting may of allowed the First to physically touch someone with demonic properties. Someone like Angel.
Now with the rift that’s been caused in the Slayer line the First may be able to manifest itself without the aid of the Harbingers.
The First as Giles sitting or leaning against furniture. – The As Spike it leaned against some stairs down in the basement with the people that Spike had buried.
I don’t think Giles is the First. It may of been an idea they had but with it being out on the internet I imagine they’ll make him the real Giles. Unless they know we know they know and they’ll try to double-back switch it or something. Or they know we know … okay I’ll stop right there on that.
The vampires having a breath. I read somewhere a comment about how a vampire can simulate breath. It doesn’t really make sense but there’s some way they can have things like cigarette smoke pass through them and make it look like they’re breathing out. Yeah its weird but this is a show about vampires 🙂
Of course this show has had continuity errors. In Halloween there’s a book and Buffy says its 1775, Angel is 18 and still human. In Becoming pt 1 he’s bit in 1753 and later in Prodigal (from Angel) we learn he was 26.
Then there’s Spike. 1st we find out he’s barely 200. Later (when he tries to bite Willow after getting the ship) he says he’s 126 (I think) then we find out he was bit in 1880 which put him at about 122 now.
Folks: Where was it said that The First is insubstatial? Obviously The First can walk on floors, sit in chairs, etc.
If I recall correctly, it was stated that The First cannot affect things directly–this is different from being insubstatial. It’s a magic thing, not a science thing.
Also, most of what we “know” about The First comes from “Giles”…
Just came across this interesting bit of information at comics continuum. “”The Killer in Me,” Tuesday, Feb. 4: When Willow starts to give in to romantic feelings for Kennedy, her guilty conscience causes her to turn into Warren, Tara’s killer. Also, the gang gets clues that lead them to believe Giles may be The First, and Buffy helps Spike with what seems to be his malfunctioning chip, ultimately leaving Buffy with a shocking choice. Guest-starring Thad Luckinbill. “
It seems to support your theory.
Richard
You’re probably right about the larynx thing, but here’s the problem: They’ve made a life and death point of saying vampires don’t breathe. Back at the end of the first season, Buffy had drowned and needed mouth to mouth. Xander and Angel were there, and Angel specifically said he couldn’t do it because he doesn’t breathe and therefore has no breath to force into Buffy’s lungs. -PAD
I remember when this episode came out I was completely shocked and disappointed by this revelation, since breath is necessary for speech. If vampires can’t breathe, then how can they speak? It boiled down to having sloppy writing in order to make an angsty plot point in that episode.