I posted the following on the DCU Supergirl board in regards to a review in “Ain’t It Cool News” which was, on the whole, quite positive, but mentioned the eternal “Peter riffs Joss Whedon” song fans always sing, particularly vis a vis the development of Linda and Kara at the high school. So I thought I’d post it here as well:
In regards to the “parallels,” one should keep in mind that when I developed the story, the sixth season of “Buffy” (you know, the one that openly and aggressively riffed “Dark Phoenix” because only Hollywood is original and the rest of us just swipe) hadn’t even ended yet. A glance at a calendar and an understanding of the roughly six month lead time of comics should tell you that. So obviously I had no clue that the new season would involve Buffy at Sunnydale High with Dawn.
Did I figure fans would draw parallels once I learned of it? Yes, because fans are always anxious to draw parallels, since they have no clue how ideas work. The truly sad thing is the lack of comprehension of something very obvious: I’m not ripping off Joss Whedon. I’m ripping off (if one must use that phrase) the introduction of Kara from fifty years ago. Although she was Superman’s cousin, the real dynamic was much more big brother/kid sister. So in bringing Kara back and substituting Linda for Superman, it is the most natural thing in the world for there to be a big/little sister relationship.
And the much discussed high school locker room scene (following the volleyball game) was obviously a tip of the hat to “Carrie” since the girls regarded Kara as a freak. Kara? Kara-ie? Get it? I mean, jeez, do I have to spell *everything* out?
Now…if Kara were actually a blob of energy, that would be something else. But it’s not. Furthermore, I can one hundred percent guarantee that issues #78 and #79 take the story off in *such* a bizarre direction that only the most tortured stretches could possibly find any “Buffy” parallels, and probably not even then.
PAD
• 
PAD,
maybe you should consider being hired by Mutant Enemy as a carreer option…
It could be fun and people would stop saying you’re ripping Joss… cause you’re both great…
But don’t blame me, thourgh I did find the several similarities between Linda / Buzz and Buffy / SPike very intriguing and fun….
well, this was another random thought….
Johny
I just finished reading issue 77. First, I have to say that each page I read I kept thinking – “How can they end it at #80 – they’ll never finish the story!”
Second, I think the parallels between Buffy and super-girl are a stretch. Even though there are similarities they are inconsequential and the only real similarity is that they are two strong women figures. But so is Wonder-Woman/Girl and any other super heroine. It comes with the job.
Third, the Carrie reference was pretty clear once Linda said -“At least they didn’t throw pig’s blood at her”.
Fourth, the shower scene, even though I felt was a bit gratuitous, was beautifully drawn (I love Benes).
Fifth, the story seems to be going in a Crisis direction, where someone is killing off all the parallel Super-girls, until the one TRUE super-girl faces him. Or maybe that was Zero Hour?
But which ever way you look at it, Super-girl is one of the most enjoyable books out there and it’s a crying shame that it will be cancelled at #80.
Dude, where’s your weekly Buffy review?? 🙂
Maybe PAD and JW are “experiencing” the Gardner Fox “Earth-2” mental connection syndrome…
Just kidding. It was a joke. Sheesh!
The more important question Peter is what did you think of the new Supergirl introduced in the Superman 10-cent Adventure? (A third Supergirl in the post-Crisis DCU? My head hurts.) Do you think this is why the current series was canceled even though it was showing signs of life?
All I know is I am wicked (sorry, I’m from New England) sad to see Supergirl go. I don’t know the politics behind its demise nor do I care. (I often don’t like “looking behind the curtain” at the brick-a-brack that is comic book business, I just like the comics.)I just want the series to contiune with Mr David at the helm. And especially now with the great artwork of Ed Benes and with Kara Zor-El.
Well, there is no stopping fate. I just hope there is room enough in the DC Universe for Linda and Kara, although I get the feeling Kara will not be around for good. I’m just wondering with Young Justice gone as well, what projects are you working on Mr. PAD?
Is there any chance that DC will change its mind on this series? I’m still somewhat bewildered regarding it being cancelled.
Me Again…
Hey, it’s just me or that one SHot about something like rescuing (spl)Steel from APokolips that was solicited in January (or was it February or March, can’t remember right now) did mention both Kara Supergirl and another Supergirl. Now I wonder, originally when a read that description I thought it was Linda and Kara. Now is there another another SG?
I think Superman 10cent will only be arriving around here in Brazil in two weeks or so, so I don’t know exactly what you guys are talking about yet…….
anyway… just other 2cent about this thing…..
Was Buffy new this week? I forgot to check.
“Was Buffy new this week? I forgot to check.
Posted by Elayne Riggs @ 01/10/2003 11:02 AM ET “
That is NOT a good sign that you’re into the new season. Yeah it was new, but you didn’t miss that much. Except for a bunch more annoying would-be slayers.
The one who keeps hitting on Willow is definitely not annoying. She rocks my world.
Giles still hasn’t touched anything, though his coat did move in wind.
I highly doubt that Giles is a “First Evil” Incarnation, i was on the fence before (it was fun trying to decide wether it was a FE Giles or if that was a red herring, or if the red herringness was really a red herring, ad infinitum) but due to stuff that happened in this last episdoe I no longer think its really even a possibility.
Yes, it seemed like a red herring.
The Buffy/SG parallel story occurrence is coincidence, at best.
And don’t forget, it ain’t what you do, it’s how you do it.
Anyone drawn to super hero comics because of their great originality isn’t very well read, that’s for dámņ sure. Bringing back Kara in the little sister role to Linda is a brilliant way to do breathe new life into this book! (I think its great that Linda and Kara bunk together and sleep above their covers – FOUR FEET above their covers…) Too bad DC cancelled the series. This is one of best developments they’ve allowed in current continuity in quite awhile.
Peter David wrote, “…fans are always anxious to draw parallels, since they have no clue how ideas work.”
***Um… ouch?
***Should I be offended, or am I misinterpeting here? I am a comic book “fan”… but I’d like to *think* I have a clue how ideas work….
Regarding the seeming Supergirl / Buffy parallels, perhaps several decades from now there will be “which came first” articles in the comics press similar to the ones that occasionally appear now about the coincidental Doom Patrol / X-Men similarities…
I think he meant we don’t know the thought process behind an idea, the process that leads up to the idea itself… and that’s true. The process behind the idea could be borrowing or referencing something, or it could just be what was thought to be an original idea that later proved to be similar to something else.
Make sense?
PAD, consider the source. They’re writing for Ain’t It Cool News (their TV guy slobbered all over Buffy Season 6 like it was…well…season 2), and they call themselves the Talkback League of @$$holes. I’m just sayin’.
“I highly doubt that Giles is a “First Evil” Incarnation, i was on the fence before (it was fun trying to decide wether it was a FE Giles or if that was a red herring, or if the red herringness was really a red herring, ad infinitum) but due to stuff that happened in this last episdoe I no longer think its really even a possibility. “
I disagree. Nothing in this episode really settled the issue for me. Though it did look like Anya might have touched his coat with her fingers after they talk to the oracle thing. But it was very brief and she might not have made contact. *head shake* I can’t believe I actually spent an entire episode looking to see if anyone touched Giles or vice versa.
But in any case, it’s still up in the air for me. The events of the episode could easily be seen as manipulation from the FE. I mean, the oracle’s answer certainly doesn’t seem to harm the FE in anyway, and casts some serious doubt on Buffy and Co.s heads.
“Giles still hasn’t touched anything, though his coat did move in wind.”
And his hair was all poofy after coming out of the portal. If you’ve got it taped, check out his and Anya’s hair. Both mussed.
Rob R.
But Giles DID touch something…
In an early scene he leaned on a table (that odd sort of leaning you do with your hands). 7m45s for those of you
with the satellite feed.
Pete wrote: “PAD, consider the source. They’re writing for Ain’t It Cool News (their TV guy slobbered all over Buffy Season 6 like it was…well…season 2), and they call themselves the Talkback League of @$$holes. I’m just sayin’.”
Ouch. You know as much as Peter David is tarred with the Whedon brush, we comic reviewers at AICN catch our share of flack via guilt by association. Sure, we write with the same postmodern, psuedo intellectual snark you find all over the net, but we really do care about what and how we write, and we try to craft something fair and insightful every week. And plus, we know how to use semicolons.
But regarding the Joss Whedon thing, before anyone gets too outraged, you might want to read the original review itself at:
http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=14125
Meanwhile, I’ll post here the salient comments from the response I wrote to David at the DCMB here:
“First of all, let me make this clear: I wasn’t identifying a similarity that I was looking for, I was identifying a similarity that I couldn’t ignore; and to that degree, my review would have been less than honest if I hadn’t mentioned it. Aspects of the arrangement between Supergirl and Kara are very similar to that of Buffy and Dawn, no question. However, not only is my comment about the similarity mitigated by the differences I also mentioned, it was also mitigated by my overall reaction to the book, which, in case you missed it, was pretty doggone positive.
And yet, the “playbook” remark without a more definite rebuttal might read as ambiguously suggesting that there could be some borrowing going on. I now have new evidence that removes the ambiguity: Peter David claims that there is no borrowing, offering a reasonable explanation, and I believe him. I’ll try to redress the situation by discussing it in a future review for Supergirl.
And Supergirl is so on verge of being truly great, it’ll be talked about again.”
So there you go.
Thanks for; listening;
AICN’s Village Idiot
Pete wrote: “PAD, consider the source. They’re writing for Ain’t It Cool News (their TV guy slobbered all over Buffy Season 6 like it was…well…season 2), and they call themselves the Talkback League of @$$holes. I’m just sayin’.”
Ouch. You know as much as Peter David is tarred with the Whedon brush, we comic reviewers at AICN catch our share of flack via guilt by association. Sure, we write with the same postmodern, psuedo intellectual snark you find all over the net, but we really do care about what and how we write, and we try to craft something fair and insightful every week. And plus, we know how to use semicolons.
But regarding the Joss Whedon thing, before anyone gets too outraged, you might want to read the original review itself at:
http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=14125
Meanwhile, I’ll post here the salient comments from the response I wrote to David at the DCMB here:
“First of all, let me make this clear: I wasn’t identifying a similarity that I was looking for, I was identifying a similarity that I couldn’t ignore; and to that degree, my review would have been less than honest if I hadn’t mentioned it. Aspects of the arrangement between Supergirl and Kara are very similar to that of Buffy and Dawn, no question. However, not only is my comment about the similarity mitigated by the differences I also mentioned, it was also mitigated by my overall reaction to the book, which, in case you missed it, was pretty doggone positive.
And yet, the “playbook” remark without a more definite rebuttal might read as ambiguously suggesting that there could be some borrowing going on. I now have new evidence that removes the ambiguity: Peter David claims that there is no borrowing, offering a reasonable explanation, and I believe him. I’ll try to redress the situation by discussing it in a future review for Supergirl.
And Supergirl is so on verge of being truly great, it’ll be talked about again.”
So there you go.
Thanks for; listening;
AICN’s Village Idiot
Aw rats, sorry for the double post.
VI
Fair enough. And I do appreciate the use of semicolons.
I like the idea of a big/little sister relationship. Given what was worked on in the past decade, I guess it fits pretty well.
You know, it’s interesting, but I wonder if Linda is going to be elevated to a position similar to Donna Troy’s and Ðìçk Grayson’s, as the “in-between” take on Wonder Woman and Nightwing. Could be, and I hope that it does become possible.
One more thing though: please, please, PLEASE, do not mention the Phoenix story from the X-Men. I may be in the minority about this, but I find that story disgusting in almost the same way as I find some of the Brothers Grimm fairy tales disgusting. Turning a sweet little lady into a planet killer, the whole idea is not only perverse, it’s degrading. If it hadn’t been for the retcon, I don’t think I’d ever even let such a filthy story into my house.
Sorry if I sound more furious than need be, but it’s something I just had to get off my chest.
Ok. I realise that I’m realllly off topic here but wasn’t the Pheonix a copy of Jean Grey, not Jean Grey herself. Don’t know much about the new season of Buffy as it only starts in Ireland this Thursday. But if is the First Evil posing as Giles why would he bring the potential slayers to Buffy in the first place. Wouldn’t it have been easier to keep picking them off one by one and then come for Buffy and Faith seperately.
PAD wrote, “fans are always anxious to draw parallels, since they have no clue how ideas work.”
I second Jason’s “Ouch.” I come to this site to entertained and enlightened not insulted! *sheesh*
Clearly this is an example of a PAD Swipe, this time he’s tearing a page out of Quesada and Jemas’ book by insulting the fans!
Start coming up with some original material PAD!!!
-Shawn
The Village Idiot: “We really do care about what and how we write, and we try to craft something fair and insightful every week.”
Sure you do. That’s why Harry Knowles gushes over troglodytic SHÍT like Shaolin Soccer and Attack of the Clones, and is so biased towards NRG, that he refers to anyone who happens to be working part time for them handing out questionnaires as a “droog,” and “automaton” and a “monkey.”
That’s really fair and insightful, I must say.
“And Supergirl is so on verge of being truly great, it’ll be talked about again.”
Posted by Village Idiot
What do u mean on the verge? Haven’t u been reading her from the beginning of her run? Sheesh!
This kinda hurts. I had to drop the Hulk when he left, now his other fulfilling title is being dropped. Ratz.
John who thinks it would be great if Padguy filled his time writing Dynamo or other Thunder Agents stuff. : )
“Turning a sweet little lady into a planet killer, the whole idea is not only perverse, it’s degrading”
pffff stereotypes. you mean that job always has to go to big, strong men?
“I think he meant we don’t know the thought process behind an idea, the process that leads up to the idea itself… and that’s true.
Make sense?”
That may indeed be what he meant, but my point is that that’s now how it comes off. It sounds like an insult. And if it’s directed at people who accused him of ripping off Joss Whedon, then… hey, more power to him! I daresay that such accusers probably *are* ignorant as to the way ideas work…
But it reads as an insult to “fans” in general, which I find unfair. And, as I consider myself a fan, it’s a tad off-putting.
Y’see?
Had you considered that it might be
1) an accurate description of the majority of fans
2) Not an insult
If don’t have the faintest clue how the actual process of physically printing a book or magazine works yet I would describe myself as a fan of both books and magazines.
Being a fan most definately does not give us special knowlege. It does not give us special insight, it doesn’t mean our opinions are more important and it certainly doesn’t mean they’re somehow more correct. It just means that we like something a lot, full stop, end of sentance.
The truth is that we fans are a very opinionated bunch who have a tendency (and I’ve caught myself doing this numerous times) to take a tiny bit of information and spin it off into a wild theory which we then take as solid fact. When in reality we never spoke directly to anyone involved, we have no documented information on the incidents and our “knowledge” is compiled from lots of contradictory sources who’s biases we don’t fully know.
In other words. We don’t have a clue.
To respond piece by piece, Egghead…
You asked if I’d considered if it might be true of a majority of fans. Well– as you may have noticed — I said that yes, it probably *IS* true of anyone accusing PAD of ripping off Joss Whedon.
Then you asked if I’d considered that it might *not* be an insult. Well, considering that when I first brought it up, I phrased it as a question… then clearly yes, I considered that a possibility.
Next you write, “Being a fan most definately [sic] does not give us special knowlege.”
Yeah, and I never said it did. The point I was trying to make — and at this far down the line, it’s pretty much moot — was that PAD’s original post took a jab at those who feel the need to accuse a professional storyteller of plagiarism.
And hey, in my opinion, such folk probably are, in most cases (don’t want to stereotype, do I?), lazy slobs who feel the need to drag down their idols, and indeed are probably too small-minded and petty to understand the nature of ideas.
But PAD’s original post — and this is ALL I was trying to say — makes that jab seem to be aimed at the whole — *the entirety* — of fandom, which I feel is an unfairly sweeping generalization. It’s one thing to knock the folks who insulted him first, but why knock the rest of the fans in the process? It seemed like stereotyping.
However, I’m *reasonably* sure that PAD doesn’t really think that his entire fan base is ignorant as to the nature of creativity. My original post was just asking for clarification of that point.
I’m not claiming that all fans are geniuses; I’m not claiming we all know everything. (I would have thought that was implicit, given the fact that my original post was a *question*…)
I’m merely saying that PAD’s original post is worded in such a way as to make it vaguely insulting to his fans, even though it probably was not intended as such. (It’s not even that I was offended… simply that I was curious to see the comment clarified. Frankly, at this point, I’m no longer too concerned. It wasn’t *that* big a deal.)
Jason
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