So the Georgia women’s beach volleyball team beat the Russian women’s beach volleyball team. And all i could think was, wouldn’t it have been interesting if the leaders of the respective countries (whose names I’m too lazy to spell) had staked the resolution of their disputes on the outcome.
In fact, even better: rather than rolling in tanks and blowing up terrified citizens, have the Russian and Georgia presidents square off in the wrestling ring. Settle this BS like men.
PAD
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NATO was designed, I thought, to protect Europe from Russian invasion. It seems to have outlived much of its use. At the very least I’m not so sure I really want every other country on Earth joining, obligating us to jump to their aid.
As for S.Ossetia and Abjazia, I wonder if they won’t regret their actions–both seem awfully tiny. Can they actually succeed or will they just be another couple of failed states that survive just as client states of Russia? Seems a high price to pay for the “prize” of ethnic purity but you makes your choices and you takes your results.
Bill, I realize that your point was that there was no peace dividend. I’m afraid that I found myself unable to resist a quip taking a dig at the current administration and their squandering of all the goodwill that the world granted us after 911. Your peace dividend comment just reminded me of that I wanted to bìŧçh about it. I apologize for hijacking your argument.
Putin is not rebuilding the URSS but rather the old Tzarist Empire.
If the use of czarist symbols is now in vogue with Russia’s government, it is for show only in my opinion.
After 80 years of Communist rule, many Russians Russians still have a proud heritage toward the old ways, as much as many of them may still look fondly upon the Soviet reign. But in the end, Communist dictators replaced the czars, who were pretty much dictators as well.
So, Putin may be taking some things as a way to invoke pride from the Russian people, to try and give his government greater legitimacy, but I don’t think it’s anything more than a ploy.
The new russia is full of pan-slavic crap.
I’d have to agree, but it’s not really new, just experiencing a bit of a resurgence. World War I? Started by an Austrian Serb (ie, of Slavic descent) who assassinated Archduke Ferdinand of Austria, thus causing Austria-Hungary to declare war on Serbia, thus causing the pre-Soviet Russian Empire to get involved, and then all hëll broke loose.
What’s frustrating is Russia’s unwillingness to let go of those lands that are not Slavic, such as Kosovo (~90% Albanians, ~10% Serbs) and Chechnya* (no Slavic peoples). Both are lands that fell under Russian/Soviet control either directly or by ethnic domination of the area, but neither is dominated by Slavs, and so these other ethnic groups prefer independence. And Russia isn’t about to let them have it.
But when it comes to Georgia? I’m not sure what’s going on, as the country has few ethnic Slavs. So, it seems more like a power play by Russia to gain back territory it lost after the fall of the USSR. Georgia is weak, and one of the regions seized, Abkhazia, was already autonomous to the point of all but being an independent nation. South Ossetia was apparently also trying to break away, so Russia was willing to help them along.
It’s a real mess, and it doesn’t look like there’s much we’re going to be able to do about it.
*Curious note for anybody who likes to mix geography and politics: Chechnya’s southern border is with Georgia. So I can’t help but wonder if these will be the last regions of Georgia that Russia will be going after.
Tim Lynch,
Happy belated birthday to Katherine.
Jerome
Craig:
Pan-slavism beign heavily associated with pre-soviet russia is precisely an argument for the notion of a Tzarist resurgence rather than a USSR one. There are others, like thepolitical role of the russian ortodox church and the legal harrasment of any other religion, both the already present and the ones coming from outside. Ive been reading a lot of pieces about the powerful status the orthodox popes have now. Thats not very soviet, if you ask me.
David Hunt: “I apologize for hijacking your argument.”
You did nothing of the sort, so don’t apologize. The fact that we’ve squandered our credibility *and* stretched our military resources too thin is relevant. Besides, even if I didn’t think so, so what? You have as much right to express yourself as anyone else.
Don’t depress yourselves beyond what’s warranted (which is more than enough) — you had 15 years with the US as the sole super power, and some positive things happened during that time.
Who knows what will come next?
“Pan-slavism beign heavily associated with pre-soviet russia is precisely an argument for the notion of a Tzarist resurgence rather than a USSR one. There are others, like thepolitical role of the russian ortodox church and the legal harrasment of any other religion, both the already present and the ones coming from outside. Ive been reading a lot of pieces about the powerful status the orthodox popes have now. Thats not very soviet, if you ask me.”
Although communism is supposed to be beyond nationalism, Russian nationalism was nevertheless part of soviet Russia too. Pan-Slavism is just a projection of that. Certainly Soviet Russia projected power beyond its borders, even if the ism was different.
Group identities, group pride, group fears and grudges — ethnic, nationalistic, secterian, political — seem to be an inevitable part of human life. The best you can do is try to find an equilibrium between the particular concerns of different groups + universal concerns, while reducing the mess involved. Not easy.
This all seems an extension of what was presented in Charlie Wilson’s War. The former Soviet Union is rife with territories so poor, prostitution is the great hope of escape for the current generation of school-aged daughters.
With the delusion of the remaining superpower that the free market defaults to being fair once you remove government control, what the hëll else did anyone expect to happen?
I think El Hombre Malo make some great points re: where the current Russian leadership is headed. Under the communist system, Russia never generated as much wealth as the nation does today. Guys like Putin are wealthy and they like it that way. I think the Russian government is expansionist and autocratic — but will lean towards capitalism. After all, capitalism and democracy don’t necessarily go hand-in-hand.
Micha: “Don’t depress yourselves beyond what’s warranted (which is more than enough) — you had 15 years with the US as the sole super power, and some positive things happened during that time.”
I wish our nation had had more foresight, though. As Stan Lee once wrote, “With great power must come great responsibility.” Had we engaged Russia properly, we might have been able to influence them to go in a more peaceful and productive direction. If we hadn’t squandered our credibility and overcommitted our military forces by invading Iraq, our diplomatic efforts might have more teeth.
The U.S. plays checkers when life is in fact a game of chess. You need to think several moves ahead, and we’re not good at that.
EhM’s point also seems to support what I said. The defacto-annexing he referred to was like the infrastructure-building we could have cheaply and easily done in Afghanistan after the fall of the USSR to prevent extremists from taking over, and something that needs to be done with the intolerably poor former-Soviet territories so they aren’t picked-up by the Russians like they’re some kind of fire-sale.
It doesn’t have to be a game for domination if you can stop thinking of people as pawns.
Pan-slavism beign heavily associated with pre-soviet russia is precisely an argument for the notion of a Tzarist resurgence rather than a USSR one.
I see your point, I just don’t think that is really Putin’s aim. When you look at Communism in the world, you see that the USSR failed. But look at where China has gotten to by adapting their brand of Communism by incorporating capitalism, rather than dismissing it.
I think now Russia is doing the same: they saw that their brand if Communism failed, so why Putin can claim all he wants that their a democracy, he’s just adopting other things, from the czars, from China, in the hopes of duplicating China’s ‘success’ at making Communism work. It may not be called Communism, but it’s certainly not a democracy.
Thats not very soviet, if you ask me.
No, but while Communist Russia portrayed itself as atheist, it didn’t exactly go to great lengths (that I’m aware of) to abolish religion. Or at least not to the same degree in the latter years of the USSR after Stalin died. Or in the way that China has aggressively done so.
So when I refer to the ‘old ways’ of Russians, Eastern/Russian Orthodox is one of those ‘ways’ that remained prevalent throughout the life of the Soviet Union. It has always been there, and I see Putin as simply trying to capitalize on it in ways that benefit him, rather than what would benefit the country.