You know, I had just about managed to grasp the notion that DC didn’t believe in the return of Kara Zor-El in “Supergirl” as remotely marketable until I did it, whereupon they canceled the comic and then did it again in a new series…
But Marvel roundly and publicly excoriated my return to the 2099 Universe in “Captain Marvel” as an example of everything that was wrong with my writing (because who gave a dámņ anymore about 2099?). The book eventually wound up being canceled…and now there’s a launch of 2099 one-shots in September. New characters, to be sure, but it’s still aimed at readers who have fond memories of the Marvel future-verse…just as my much-maligned Spidey 2099 guest appearance in “Captain Marvel” was.
I used to take pleasure in being proven right. Now…not so much.
PAD
• 
Jerome Maida: Are you aware that THIRTY PERCENT of the readership of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue is female?
Luigi Novi: So in other words, SEVENTY percent is male? Are you arguing against Craig
Karen: I have to throw my two cents in here. I follow the writing first. If a book is poorly written, has poor grammar and spelling, I won’t buy any more issues.
Luigi Novi: I wasn
Luigi,
First, let me say that virtually all the posters here add something to the debate, but you add a unique level of intellectualism to the discussions here and I always enjoy what you have to say, even if I don’t agree with it.
Piggy backing on what Karen said, I also follow the writing first and foremost. And while I won’t necessarily drop a title if there’s poor spelling and grammar (unless its truly egregious), I do find it annoying. The writers of Now Comics “Green Hornet_ series consistently spelled “all right” as the incorrect “alright.” I’d actually pointed out that error to the editor at a convention once, but for whatever reason, they decided to stick with the wrong spelling.
Luigi,
I’d also like to echo Jerome Maida’s comments. I also enjoy reading your well thought out posts.
By the way, just curious. Is your last name pronounced No-vee or No-vy, like the city?
Rick
Rick,
I always hate basic grammatical errors in a professional publication myself. However, since I have never read an issue of NOW Comics’ “Green Hornet”, I have to ask, in what context was the word “alright” used? Because I have learned in African-American ( or Ebonic, if you will), the phrase is a distinctive one used for emphasis, like, for example, “You’re being a little shaky, dog, alright?”
Again, since I have never read the book, I cannot tell if this was the context in which it was used.
But just thought I would put it out there, that the term “alright” actually has some roots and acceptance among certain pockets of the population, and there fore may not be automatically perceived as incorrect, unless you take into account other factors.
Luigi,
To answer your question:
I am arguing AGAINST Craig’s point. The reason I think THIRTY percent of Swimsuit readers being women is significant because:
A.) It’s Craig who seems to feel a cover of a sexy woman in a sexy pose/outfit automatically turns off women
B.) The SI Swimsuit Issue has, for years, been bashed by both the Right and the Left. By the Right for being immoral, contributing to the degradation of our culture, blah, blah, blah. By the Left for treating women as objects, setting an impossible standard, blah, blah, blah.
Yet almost a THIRD of readers of the swimsuit Issue are female, which is vastly greater than the normal female readership for SI. So it would seem, on the surface, that women are MORE drawn to beautiful women in swimsuits than to actual coverage of female athletes. I have various theories for this I won’t go into right now. But the fact remains, a substantial percentage of women are not only not REPELLED by the image of a beautiful woman on the cover, but DRAWN to it. So the argument that Greg Horn’s covers (which have hyad the character dressed in T-Shirts and jeans for the past three issues) are automatically TURNING OFF female readers does not bear up under scrutiny. At the same time, it sure helped the book stand out from the crwod for me:)
I may have ignored it. The cover pulled me in, and I found out I liked the story. Seems like Greg Horn is doing his job!
Travis – ” If you haven’t seen How to Irritate People, it’s worthwhile”
Tastes vary. I found it to be some of his less inspired work. I thought his business training shorts were much better.
Joe – “2) Super Heroes outsell any other genre.”
In North America, perhaps. And then, only in the Anglophone segments of the population. In Japan and in Europe, where comics are a bigger phenomenon than they are here, the super hero genre is a small fraction of what’s out there. Even here, in Canada, look at Francophone bookshops and you’ll see their equivalent of trade paperbacks for European and Japanese stuff, but American super hero stuff.
Fred – “The Swan was a recent reality TV show that had its participants transformed from “ugly ducklings” into beauties and then judged to see who was turned into the most attractive. Sad commentary on our current society values indeed.”
The whole concept of these reality shows is a sad commentary. Millions upon millions of people who would rather experience life via their tv rather than going out and having a real life of their own.
I often see the same thing on the Internet. I’m one of the moderators on a chat channel about Japan. I’m not on all that often, but I’ve lost track of how often I’ve seen people who seem to LIVE on there complain about how they don’t have a date for Friday night, etc. I generally tell them to look around them until they see this rectangular thing in the wall called a ‘door’. When they’ve found it, turn off the computer, and open the door. Go through it. Continue to go through doors until they wind up in this big thing called the outside world. They’ll probably have a lot more luck looking there.
James – “I think it’s safe to say that the early Horn covers were not aimed at attracting a female audience though”
Two friends, who are fans of the Emma Frost character, were turned off buying the book because of those covers. Said friends are cheesecake (of the female variety) loving, heterosexual males, but they couldn’t abide the way those covers were a complete screwup of the character.
Marvel killed me off X-MEN several years ago when they also screwed around with established characters to the point where I couldn’t stand it any more.
Oops.
“look at Francophone bookshops and you’ll see their equivalent of trade paperbacks for European and Japanese stuff, but American super hero stuff.”
That should have read, in part: “… but very little American super hero stuff.”
Posted by Jerome Maida: “The argument that Greg Horn’s covers (which have hyad the character dressed in T-Shirts and jeans for the past three issues) are automatically TURNING OFF female readers does not bear up under scrutiny.”
I think the argument is not that the recent issues
http://www.thexaxis.com/emmafrost/emmafrost9.htm
http://www.thexaxis.com/emmafrost/emmafrost10.jpg
http://www.thexaxis.com/emmafrost/emmafrost11.jpg
http://www.thexaxis.com/emmafrost/emmafrost12.jpg
will turn off female readers as much as it is that the early issues, with their gynecology-and-mammary-oriented poses were embarassing for everyone to buy…
http://www.thexaxis.com/emmafrost/emmafrost1.jpg
http://www.thexaxis.com/emmafrost/emmafrost2.jpg
http://www.thexaxis.com/emmafrost/emmafrost3.jpg
So the argument that Greg Horn’s covers (which have hyad the character dressed in T-Shirts and jeans for the past three issues) are automatically TURNING OFF female readers does not bear up under scrutiny.
Well, I gues you’ll need to get the numbers for Emma Frost to prove yourself right and me wrong, because the SI Swimsuit Issue isn’t even in the same category as a comic book, much less in the same neighborhood of sales figures.
The fact remains: SI is aimed at men of all ages.
The Emma Frost comic is aimed at teenage women, but the early covers for the series were not.
You know, we haven’t even touched on the fact of whether or not Frost is the type of character they should be trying to display as a role model (of some sort).
She’s been a villain most of the time, and recent events in the X-books aren’t exactly putting her up there on a pedestal either. 🙂
Jerome,
The word “alright” was used in the “Green Hornet” series as part of ordinary conversation (where “all right” should have been used), not as part of a character’s slang. I don’t have the issues handy at the moment, so I can’t cite a specific instance, but there would be things like, “will Aunt Diana be alright?” or “Is everything alright, Paul?” etc.
Come to think of it, I don’t recall there being any slang at all. At least nothing that really jumps out at you. Certainly nothing like the hypothetical example you cited. There may be an “ain’t” here and there, but that’s so widely used, it’s almost become standard English.
Aside from that consistent grammatical error (and a few other minor flaws), the series was quite good, tying in the original radio Green Hornet (Brit Reid), and the TV Hornet (Brit Reid II) with the modern, Now Comics Hornet (Paul Reid). They just continued the uncle/nephew theme begun back in the radio days, when the Hornet was revealed to be the grand-nephew of The Lone Ranger. Each successive Hornet was the nephew of his predecessor.
But one thing that has me scratching my head is why they would leave out several pages from the hardcover collection of the first 14 issues. In the original issues, these pages revealed in flashback how and why Brit Reid II decided to take up the mantle of the Green Hornet in the 1960s. In the collected edition, they simply aren’t there.
Rick
Craig,
As Joss Whedon says, Emma “is the Spike of the group”. Or don’t you believe in redemption? That is interesting.
And by “role model”, are you saying that every female character has to be Mary Marvel? I mean, I love Captain America and Superman – probably more than most – but if every male character was like them, it would get boring fast.
I mean, three of the characters I related to the most growing up were The Hulk, Batman, and Spider-man. You can certainly debate whether “Bruce Banner/childlike monster” or Bruce Wayne/dark knight are “role models”, and Peter Parker is just slightly neurotic, wouldn’t you agree?
John DiBello,
And you were given the insight and authority to speak for EVERYONE by whom? And when?
Posted by Jerome Maida: John DiBello, And you were given the insight and authority to speak for EVERYONE by whom? And when?
Bought it. On eBay. Good value!
Seriously, Jerome, I’m summarizing (admittedly what I believed from having read others’ posts) to be the argument that the early covers of Emma Frost were offputting to the target market. If I understand correctly, Craig, Tim, Luigi and Starwolf have all expressed this. (Correct me if I’m wrong, guys). Hence my words “I think the argument is…” And I produced links to the early and recent covers to let posters make up their own minds.
If I’m wrong that that’s not the argument we’re having, then I’ve completely misunderstood–but I’d like others to tell me that’s not the conflict being discussed rather than just you, please.
In the end, like any discussion group, I’m stating my opinion, and you’re stating yours. But I’m not going to back down because you choose to post a direct attack on my ability/right/priviledge to post an opinion rather than the content of that opinion–in other words, argue the content of posts, please. Thanks!
A correction to my post above: On re-reading his post, Luigi Novi did not state, as I suggested that “the early covers of Emma Frost were offputting to the target market.”
What he said was: “My problem with Horn
I bought the poster that was made of emma frost #1. I’ve got it in my office @ home on the wall. I agree that the covers were made to lure boys to the title. oh well, it got cancelled & i never bought. i do hope they collect the covers.
& Luigi, you are right, i may be generalizing on the Hulk run based on my opinion of the artists, & i do wish i had the #’s for the sales, (but who actually keeps 10 years worth of WIZARD’s). I can tell you that in my circle of friends (@ that time) were all dropping hulk when Keown left.
when i say stroman didn’t do it for me, you have to remember that in the early 90’s all things X sold & i was in that group of all things x. so i bought x factor, as well as x-force (oh God, i can’t believe i used to read that. I remember once thinking how can cable carry all that equipment). Those i think are the exeptions. X still sells. Uncanny x-men wasn’t any good recently w/ Austen & Garney, yet it still sold well. @ that time i was buying x faxtor because it was an X title. Now peter made it very interesting & i was taking notice. other then X factor I’ve never bought another Larry Stroman book.
Joe V
Jerome Maida: Luigi, First, let me say that virtually all the posters here add something to the debate, but you add a unique level of intellectualism to the discussions here and I always enjoy what you have to say, even if I don’t agree with it.
Rick Keating: Luigi, I’d also like to echo Jerome Maida’s comments. I also enjoy reading your well thought out posts.
Luigi Novi: Thank you. That
Sorry if someone else mentioned this and I missed it . . .
A while back in But I Digress, PAD brought up a theory on comics sales along with a formula. I don’t remember the details — and correct me if someone remembers it better — it went something like:
Points are given for writer, artist, character and publisher in how they relate to sales. People choose based on:
1. Publisher (usually the big two — 2 points; Dark Horse or Image — 1 point, others — no points)
2. Character (Superman, Batman, Spidey, X-Men — 2 points; Hulk, FF, Cap, — 1 points; others — no points)
3. Artist (Jim Lee, Turner — 2 points; Cassady — 1 point; others — no points)
4. Writer (Bendis, Millar, Gaiman, Moore, PAD, Morrison — 1 point; others — nada)
So a Batman book (2 for DC, 2 for Batman) by Loeb (1) and Lee (2) — for a total of 7 points — would outsell Fallen Angel (2 DC) by PAD (1) and Lopez which rings in at 3 points.
There are some statistical anomalies, such as the resurgence of GI Joe a while back, but as a rule of thumb it makes a lot of sense.
Though I usually buy based on story or writer, there are a handful of artists I’d buy just for them, but they are not mainstream tastes by any means (Sienkiewicz (sp?), for example).
Anyway, I was curious about other opinions of PAD’s theory.
“When pressed for what he
John D:
>I’m summarizing (admittedly what I believed from having read others’ posts) to be the argument that the early covers of Emma Frost were offputting to the target market. If I understand correctly, Craig, Tim, Luigi and Starwolf have all expressed this. (Correct me if I’m wrong, guys). Hence my words “I think the argument is…” And I produced links to the early and recent covers to let posters make up their own minds.
>If I’m wrong that that’s not the argument we’re having, then I’ve completely misunderstood–but I’d like others to tell me that’s not the conflict being discussed rather than just you, please.
Nope, that’s the discussion. I agree with you wholeheartedly.Attracting younger female readers may have been the plan according to the company, but looking at those covers both then and now… they executed it poorly.
C’mon Luigi,
super heroes look cool in costumes because it’s not real. That’s the joy & beauty of the costume. How would you like it if DC put Superman in a leather outfit, with no cape, no colors.
Or Spiderman.
Costumes are part of the magic.
The problem is when silly costumes are created that don’t fit the character. Example, the Punisher with the big white belt & boots or Cable when he had all that padding.
provided that the costume isn’t to complicated & it fits the character, i say everyone should wear costumes.
Joe V.
Sorry to start off on these message boards by being such a pathetic fanboy, but …
Peter David sure as hëll did a fine job with Spidey 2099, didn’t he? He and Rick Leonardi were sort of a dream team in comics in the mid-90’s. Ten years later, and I’m still uncertain about who I love the most – David/Leonardi or Chuck Dixon and Graham Nolan, another dream team.
Talk about taking words and pictures and creating a reality that casual readers could identify with … Vulture 2099 still makes me laugh (and shudder), Tyler Stone still makes me suspicious of my employers, and Lyla still makes me wish I lived 50 years from now.
Before you dismiss this as yet another fanboy rambling on about Spidey, I guess I should say that I am a little skeptical about some of your political views.
With that said, though, Mr. David, thanks for the memories. Your art was really important to me during some vulnerable times in my youth.
Joe V: C’mon Luigi, super heroes look cool in costumes because it’s not real. That’s the joy & beauty of the costume. How would you like it if DC put Superman in a leather outfit, with no cape, no colors. Or Spiderman. Costumes are part of the magic.
Luigi Novi: I didn
John Dibello,
If you would actually take the time to look over previous postings, my post about you “speaking for EVERYBODY” was based on the following statement by you:
“I think the argument is not that the recent issues
will turn off female readers as much as it is that the early issues, with their gynecology-and- mammary oriented poses were emabarrassing for EVERYONE to buy…”
THAT”s what I was responding to..I wasn’t embarrassed, neither were many of the people at the comic shops I frequent the most, and certainly not the people lined up at Greg Horn’s table at Wizard World East.
That’s all I was addressing. Look back on it and see why I responded the way I did. Can you see now why I reacted the way I did. Thanks.
Fred,
Look at the above post. Now, add that to the fact that I started this discussion by bringing up the “Emma Frost” title in the first place and then responding to a poster making a throwaway comment about how “sleazy” the Greg Horn covers were/are, and I am quite certain what the “discussion” was about. But I understand if you simply can’t help yourself. You simply are a clueless pseudo-intellectual who feels free to interject himself in other people’s discussions regardless of his knowledge (or lack of) not just the subject matter but the tenor and tone of the debate you are commenting on.
But your toothpick-poking is quite irrelevant.
“Now, add that to the fact that I started this discussion by bringing up the “Emma Frost” title in the first place and then responding to a poster making a throwaway comment about how “sleazy” the Greg Horn covers were/are, and I am quite certain what the “discussion” was about.”
Well, THAT’S good, considering that you’re now DIVERTING attention AWAY from the matter by discussing the drooling adolescents over at Greg Horn’s table. OF COURSE, WIZARD fanboys are going to be getting some signatures on COLLECTIBLES, dude; it helps pay for their overly PRICEY entry fees.
And as far as your “not embarrassed at my local” argument, just how many FEMALES were in attendance when you surveyed the shop? My educated guess: LESS THAN ONE.
Jeez, Jerome, if you weren’t SO PREDICTABLE with your KNEE-JERK rationalizations, you’d have realized that my description of Horn’s generally SLEAZY female character cover art was HARDLY “throwaway”. It’s certainly not worthy of an instant dismissal, as other posters’ subsequent comments have now frequently MADE MY POINT for me.
And the opinion STANDS, especially since the series appears to be getting CANCELLED as a result of Horn SOFTENING his approach on more recent issues. Thus, teenage boys must be finding BETTER books to whack off to. 🙂
KET
KET:
“Now, add that to the fact that I started this discussion by bringing up the “Emma Frost” title in the first place and then responding to a poster making a throwaway comment about how “sleazy” the Greg Horn covers were/are, and I am quite certain what the “discussion” was about.”
>Well, THAT’S good, considering that you’re now DIVERTING attention AWAY from the matter by discussing the drooling adolescents over at Greg Horn’s table. OF COURSE, WIZARD fanboys are going to be getting some signatures on COLLECTIBLES, dude; it helps pay for their overly PRICEY entry fees.
>And as far as your “not embarrassed at my local” argument, just how many FEMALES were in attendance when you surveyed the shop? My educated guess: LESS THAN ONE.
>Jeez, Jerome, if you weren’t SO PREDICTABLE with your KNEE-JERK rationalizations, you’d have realized that my description of Horn’s generally SLEAZY female character cover art was HARDLY “throwaway”. It’s certainly not worthy of an instant dismissal, as other posters’ subsequent comments have now frequently MADE MY POINT for me.
I dunno. If it weren’t for his knee-jerk reactions, instant and regular condescending dismissals of others who don’t agree with him (“WOW can you say THAT?” “I usually respect your opinions”, etc, seem to be the standard answers that show up in his threads at least once a week.) and rationalizations I’d actually be responding to him as I had been planning on when I originally saw an old friend on this board. Guess times and people change.
Jeorme:
>Fred,
Look at the above post. Now, add that to the fact that I started this discussion by bringing up the “Emma Frost” title in the first place and then responding to a poster making a throwaway comment about how “sleazy” the Greg Horn covers were/are, and I am quite certain what the “discussion” was about.
That does not make John D’s statement false.
>But I understand if you simply can’t help yourself. You simply are a clueless pseudo-intellectual who feels free to interject himself in other people’s discussions regardless of his knowledge (or lack of) not just the subject matter but the tenor and tone of the debate you are commenting on.
Let’s see. Public forum….. check. Read this thread as it went along in its entirety… check. Response to another poster’s question done in a respectful manner (“Nope, that’s the discussion. I agree with you wholeheartedly.Attracting younger female readers may have been the plan according to the company, but looking at those covers both then and now… they executed it poorly.”)… check.
I replied to John and agreed and added to the discussion by making a very brief statement about goals versus actions taken and how said actions weren’t very effective. This is outside of my knowledge, how?
>But your toothpick-poking is quite irrelevant.
My reply was supportive, not poking.
You may want to reread your old replies to me again as I’ve never insulted you, have actually asked that you stop trying to “poke with a stick” when you’ve insulted me with no provocation, and lastly after having insults lobbed at me I respond with clear and reasonable posts…. you fail to respond. I’ve seen you do this repeatedly with others, but it is apparently more pointed with me for whatever reason. Actually, I’m a bit amazed that you are completely unaware of how much you wear this frustation and anger on your sleeve without even an iota of awareness that you do it. Might I suggest that you refrain from responding to my posts as you’ve publicly stated you were going to do. You know… since they are irrelevant and all.
Since nearly everyone that you’ve interacted with on PAD’s board (including PAD) has “misinterpreted” being insulted by you, is it possible that that issue doesn’t wholey lie with the community here?
The only one regularly insulting is you and the shrouded one…. and you go wayyyy off-topic to do it.
Jerome Maida: Fred, ….But I understand if you simply can’t help yourself. You simply are a clueless pseudo-intellectual who feels free to interject himself in other people’s discussions
Luigi Novi: There’s no such thing as “other people’s discussions” here, Jerome. This site is dedicated to open discussion by whomever wishes to participate when they visit, and thus, the discussion “belongs” to any such visitor does so. Disagree with Fred’s arguments on their merits if you wish, but you do not have any greater claim to the discussion merely because you may have been the first (or one of the first) to initiate it.
Peace. 🙂
Y’know, KET, your random capitalization of WORDS with neither apparent rhyme nor REASON gets really DISTRACTING someTIMES, and makes YOUR posts unneceSSARILY HARD to READ…
🙂
Luigi,
the city of Novi (pronounced No-Vie) is in Michigan. It’s a suburb of Detroit. The name apparently comes from the fact that it was once stop No. VI (6) on the railroad.
Rick
Or don’t you believe in redemption? That is interesting.
Well, for starters, I was poking fun at it.
But, since you have an axe to grind with me right now…
Redemption? Frost? Gimme a break. Gen X lasted 75 years with Frost as a headmaster.
But now they have her screwing Cyclops. Yeah, wonderful redemption there.
Well, for starters, I was poking fun at it.
But, since you have an axe to grind with me right now…
Redemption? Frost? Gimme a break. Gen X lasted 75 years with Frost as a headmaster.
But now they have her screwing Cyclops. Yeah, wonderful redemption there.
Yeah, poor Emma…look how he’s treated the last few women he’s gone to bed with…
Luigi, your reasons for Xmen burnout are valid and very well thought out.I admit i liked the run of Grant Morrison only because he did something or at least attempted something new.Claremont returning did not impress me at all.Many of the problems you have with the Xmen are mainstays of his work in my opinion.I tried out another version of the Xfolks only cause Havok and Rogue
,two of my all time favorites are there but ,i dont think it will be a regular read.
I would like the mutants living “normal”lives and living in society ,wasnt that the point ???Do all of xavier’s students become xmen???Why wouldnt some of them become political activists,lawyers,to try to improve the lives and rights of mutants?
The costume thing is another point of yours i appreciate.One of my favorite characters ,the Question only wore a faceless mask,and the gas to fix the mask to his face would darken his clothes and hair color.Very Practical and simplistic.Some of the outfits i see on certain characters just dont make sense to me.
When i was younger i used to play a roleplaying game based on superheroes ,very few of them wore
a costume ,just didnt work for me.
By the way I also agree with Karen the writer is much me important to me than the artist.
JMIICBW:)
Just a quick follow-up. Novi, Michigan is the site of the Motor City Comic Con, which PAD has attended from time to time.
Rick