On very, very rare occasions, I employ a tactic utilized by Professor Kingsfield in the pilot episode of “The Paper Chase.” In that episode, young student Mr. Hart proves so inept, so worthless, that Kingsfield “shrouds” him. Akin to “shunning” in certain societies, it means that the person is effectively dead. He will never be called upon or acknowledged or responded to in any way. Far more effective than taking steps to shut someone up, it allows them to shout into the wind as much as they wish. I consider it a far more elegant solution than censorship.
Peterdavid.net officially shrouds Dee and his/her various personalities. Dee, who gives conservatives a bad name, is dead to this board. As far as I am concerned, he/she/it no longer exists.
I invite others to follow my lead or not, as they see fit.
PAD
• 
Ocean Doot,
I’m in Madison.
Jerome,
Peace. Cool.
I agree that what Hussein did was much, much worse (getting rid of that guy was one of the other good things about the war), as was the stuff that McCain suffered, but it doesn’t make the stuff in Abu Ghraib any less shameful, to me at least. Of course, I could be just a bit naive about this kind of thing.
The polarization thing, which does seem to me to be more pronounced now than at any time in my own life at least, well, I still think the GOP got the ball rolling, particularly during the Clinton years, but sure, both sides are guilty these days. So I guess we’ll partly disagree on that one, fair enough?
Anyhoo, flame off and all that. Peace.
Stew
Jerome,
In regards to the prison scandel in Iraq, I can see how someone could find the coverage tiresome. It is my personal preference that if anything new comes up, then I want to know about it. If this causes too much attention to be focused on old news, I consider that the price of being informed in a free society. It’s unpleasant, but evidence that we still have a Free Press.
As to not making a big thing about the abuses in the prison, I’m afraid I’ll have to respectfully disagree with you on that as well. I don’t think it’s enough that what we did isn’t as bad as what Hussein’s government did. I’m afraid that “Better Than Saddam” is a pretty low moral standard to be setting for ourselves. Falling back on that line strikes me as making excuses for what we’ve done. I think we should just have striven to not do anything wrong. Then, we wouldn’t be needing to make excuses for the behavior of our prison personnel.
Finally, if you still don’t have a problem with what happened to the Iraqi prisoners, I’d like to suggest the following mental exercise: Mentally reverse the nationalities or the prisoners and the jailers. We’d be singing an entirely different song then. We wouldn’t even be using the word, “abuse.” We’d be using the word “torture” and probably “War Crime” as well. We’d be calling for blood and demanding that we track the responsibilty to the highest level of authority until we found out who gave the orders. So I can see how various Arab people would be in an uproar about it. And thus, I can see how some of them would listen to some hate-monger who says that all their ills are the fault of Western Infidels and that they should join the Cause against them.
This is why I don’t mind that the story hasn’t died. We have to find out who on our side was responsible for this. Because they made what might be the most effective Al Quaida recruitment film ever produced. And it was our side that made it.
“I’m afraid that “Better Than Saddam” is a pretty low moral standard to be setting for ourselves. Falling back on that line strikes me as making excuses for what we’ve done. I think we should just have striven to not do anything wrong. Then, we wouldn’t be needing to make excuses for the behavior of our prison personnel.”
I agree. The war in Iraq isn’t about a eye for an eye (unless you’re a seriously petty soul). How are we (the US) justified in objecting to human rights violations around the world when we ourselves are now guilty of them? It removes what little moral high ground that the US had left and (more importantly to the war effort) tarnishes the middle east view of Americans. We ARE trying to make friends oiver there.
As stated earlier, Al Qaeda recruitment is at an all-time high, and nonesense like this will just amp it up even more.
In fact, the whole war in Iraq is just about the best thing that ever happened to Al Qaeda. Recruitment and visability are at an all-time high, Al Qaeda terrorists now have a visable target in Iraq and the best part for them is that it distracts us from whatever they may be planning elsewhere. Like in the US.
If GWB had concentrated our military on Al Qaeda after the Taliban fell instead of foolishly going forward with his pre-planned war in Iraq, we just might have been able to eliminate the Al Qaeda threat with out losing the global good will we aquired after 9/11. Instead, we are now in a much worse place than we were pre-9/11.
David Hunt and Steve,
First, I never said I “didn’t have a problem with it”. Yes, their actions are shameful. But even many liberals admit the damage was more psychological than physical. You may not see a difference, but I do. A huge one. And please, ask yourself, why is the killing of an American civilian (Nick Berg) only a one or two day story, while the humiliation of prisoners of war is given front page billing for weeks?
If the “victims” were civilians, I would be more outraged. If we were castrating them or breaking their bones, I just might be a bit more upset.
But to smear our entire armed forcesfor WEEKS over the actions of seven people is beyond disproportionate. It is as if the media were waiting for SOMETHING to really have an excuse to question the wisdom of the war and show the supposed folly of it. What better way than to show our liberators as oppressors?
Furthermore, I’m sure we are striving not to do anything wrong. The fact that a miniscule few have done so does not contradict that.
And David, if you REALLY want to reverse a situation, how would you feel if after 9/11 OUR media presented all Arab-Americans as untrustworthy, and did questions on the wisdom of letting so many immigrate her and columns and front-page stories for THREE WEEKS to that effect, based on the actions of 19 people? Wouldn’t you feel that was, at the very least, unfair? Or even distasteful? To tar a whole group because of the actions of a very few? Why is it that the only gtroup liberals don’t seem to have a problem bashing in this unfair way is the military?
And Steve, to answer your query, “How are we justified in objecting to human rights violations around the world when we ourselves are guilty of them”?
Well, again, it’s a matter of relativity. Do you really feel what “we’ve” done gives us no moral authority to say, rail against forced abortions, or the physical abuse of women, or, for one example, the killing of white farmers in Zimbabwe?
I certainly don’t. And if you feel we “lost whatever moral high ground we had”, well, you obviously didn’t feel we had much to start with.
And while you’re holding the U.S. to an almost impossible standard, kindly check out who sits on the U.N.’s Human Rights committee. Please. If you care about human rights and are not simply trying to criticize our war effort, you’ll take the time. Here’s a hint: It’s chock full of oppressive regimes, human rights abusers, and dictators. If you really want to know, I’ll tell you next post.
And while we’re on the subject of the U.N., again, isn’t the Oil-For-Food Scandal, in which money that was supposed to help feed the Iraqi people and give them medicine was diverted to Saddam’s palaces and pockets while the U.N., France and Russia received kickbacks a far bigger disgrace? How can France look anybody in the eye and say they opposed us on principle when they were basically bought off? And why isn’t this international scandal getting headlines? Is the denial of food and medicine to thousands if not millions of civilians while “civilized” institutions and countries turned a blind eye – and profited from their suffering – significant? Don’t think the Iraqi people don’t know about it either, which is why so many of them loathe the U.N.
But I guess that’s not as sensational as a woman with an Arab prisoner on a leash. That, or it doesn’t fit into the agenda of many of the media elite, and so is basically ignored.
Good for you, PAD… I don’t know what this Dee person has done (though I get the gist of it from your message), but this is probably the best way to deal with people who can’t play by the rules, when one considers how much trouble it could be to watch for any post they might make, deleting each one as soon as it appears…
–P
Jerome…I think you have it a bit backwards.
It’s because we DO hold ourselves to a near impossible standard that we have that moral authority. It was a powerful weapon in an ideological battle that we engage in…and I think you underestimate its importance.
But to smear our entire armed forcesfor WEEKS over the actions of seven people is beyond disproportionate.
Jerome … could you please do us all the courtesy of naming one news organization or editorial writer who has blamed “our entire armed forces” for this? With a few quotes or a link as evidence?
All the media sources I’ve visited (including lots of the ones that are most definitely “left-wing”, not just the mainstream media you keep insisting are biased) are taking great pains to say that this is NOT indicative of the military as a whole.
A breakdown of discipline, yes. A seriously fûçkëd-ûp culture as regards intelligence gathering, yes. The administration (in particular Rumsfeld, Ashcroft and Bush) for parsing the definition of “torture” in ways even Clinton would say are slippery and for claiming that international law and the Geneva Conventions don’t apply … hëll, yes.
The military as a whole? No, and it’s disingenuous of you to imply that “our boys in uniform” are the ones having fingers pointed at them. You want to stand up for them, maybe take it up with the SOB’s who put them there. And that wasn’t the media.
TWL
Touche, Tim.
And welcome back:)
Hm. Between the chatter here and the fact that there’s a GURPS book dedicated to it, I may have to add the Wildcards series to my list of Books to Get.
I do love my used bookstores!
So who’s going to be at ShoreLeave in July?
“Ocean Doot,
I’m in Madison.”
Cool, Stew! I’m in Milwaukee, myself. Go Badgers, and all that!
Jason
Unfortunately, I think that a great deal of the blame about what’s happened at Abu Ghraib prison has to do with military culture. Militaries have a way of promoting the kinds of beliefs, attitudes, and conformity that make events like this all too easy. For an example which occurred in the last 10 years, see the Somalia Inquiry which occurred here in Canada in the 1990s. I’ve taken the liberty of finding a link for you.
http://www.newsworld.cbc.ca/flashback/1996/index.html
Abu Ghraib certainly isn’t the first time something like this has happened.
Maybe he wasn’t the best dam president ever, but now that he’s dead we can agree that he’s probably the most recently dámņëd.
Not a big Reagan fan myself Kip, but I think he did his 10 years of Alzheimer’s to cover the dámņáŧìøņ you claim he has…