The Troll hammer, on which I was briefly the high bidder for about an hour, wound up going for about $3100. Holy crap.
Also, Angel related: With all the discussion about “Shonshu” in regards to Spike, I went back and re-watched the first season Angel episode for the first time in ages. I have to admit, I was impressed. (Read on, to avoid spoilers for our British friends.)
In the current series, when the evil guys were claiming that everything that had happened before was leading up to the arrival of Jasmine, I just thought the writers were trying to pull some retroactive nonsense. But dámņëd if in that episode, it’s all set up. An evil being from the lower depths sets the ceremony in motion and there is great talk of how this ceremony will result in the Beast. And the Beast will know all mankind, and all mankind will know the Beast (but no gender is mentioned.) And when Angel battles the evil being who sets it all into motion and rips off a mask he’s wearing, his face is all maggoty, just like Jasmine’s, which I’d completely forgotten. When the episode first aired, I–along with everyone else–just figured the Beast being referred to was Darla. Apparently not. It was Jasmine who showed up years later as a result of Darla being returned to Earth.
Now I don’t believe for a moment that the folks at “Angel” had everything worked out beat-for-beat, but if nothing else, it’s a nice job of sowing seeds and then reaping the crop.
PAD
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Yay first comment !
I don’t think that Joss & Co. have the whole JMS plan-ahead method going, but I believe they planned the first episode with the last episode in mind.
However, seeing as the fourth season will not be the last, they will probably need to come up with more “seeds” for future seasons.
If they haven’t already come up with seeds for the future!
Bwanh, bwanh, baaaaaaaaaaanh!!!!!
Excuse the cheesy music reference. Seriously though, I can’t wait to see next season!
Well, Joss & Co hinted at the arrival of Dawn way back in Season 3 of “Buffy”, so long-term planning is nothing new.
Pascal
They could just make Spike human on Angel. Although there are a lot of non powered characters on Angel now, where as on Buffy almost everyone had a super ability. I think it would be worth it just to see Spike standing in the sun and taunting Angel about it.
Maybe I’m naive, but those auction prices are just mind-boggling. In an odd and rather amusing coincidence, that Egyptian cat statue that was @ $1500 when I last looked is the exact same thing as one a friend brought back from Egypt for me this winter. Given that his entire souvenier budget was $300, and I *know* he bought a lot more than one kitty …. Scary how much money people have for ‘fun’ stuff, isn’t it?
Hints about Dawn in Season 3? I missed them completely.
Several series’ have done a good job of sowing seeds that are later exploited beautifully, but few have had a game plan spanning several seasons. In fact, the only one that easily comes to mind is Babylon 5. That was fully satisfying on all levels; it wrapped up the relationships, the plot lines, and the whole ball of wax while leaving a sense that there was more to come. I think that’s where Buffy failed. Too many things were left hanging to be picked up in spin-offs, movies, or any other commercial venture that might come along. And while that’s a smart move on a practical level, it was just sloppy story-telling from the ‘artistic’ standpoint. That final scene where Dawn asked where they were going to live. I could hear “Where do we go from here?” in the back of my mind, but lacked the impact of the haunting refrain of the song. Why? There should have been a sense of hope, of things to come that we might never know/see, but … something was missing and I can’t pinpoint it better than that …
Yeah – I definitely felt a lack of closure at the end of the final episode, even though most was wrapped up…
Sarah Michelle Gellar mentioned in interviews that the cast knew of Dawn’s arrival two years before she was actually introduced. When Faith was in coma, Buffy dreamed a “finale meeting” with her. Faith said something like “go and make your sister’s bed. She’s on her way.” I don’t know the exact words (because I saw the german translation of the episode).
Pascal
I know Joss had Buffy’s first 5 seasons planned (Faith’s 730 line and mention of making her sister’s bed).
I knew the Jasmine stuff was supposed to go back to the Trial but I never connected To Shanshu in LA until you mentioned it, Peter. Now I can’t believe I didn’t come to the same conclusion.
ruthe wrote: >>Several series’ have done a good job of sowing seeds that are later exploited beautifully, but few have had a game plan spanning several seasons. In fact, the only one that easily comes to mind is Babylon 5.<<
Have you ever seen the anime “Neon Genesis Evangelion”? I think the “sowing seeds that are later exploited” has been never done better before or after. Not even in Babylon 5
Pascal
I’m woefully ignorant about anime, but I’ll make a real effort to see Neon Genesis Evangelion after that comment 🙂
I think this is a good time to turn the question on our host. PAD, have you ever “planted seeds” without knowing it and come back to do a story where they paid off? Many writers say that when they know their characters they write themselves. Did you ever do a story where you look at it and say, “Well, what do you know, look at what Rick Jones (or whoever) was up to without me knowing it?”
Yes Joss did set up the Dawn and Buffy’s death at the end of season 3.
Though the one mystery I always wanted them to address was the cheese.
On an aside, I notice the biggest ticket item so far on the Buffy auction is Spike’s punk outfit at $13,000 which I find totally insane.
Hëll, I always loved that the cheese man was never explained. It was just nutty dream logic.
Speaking of the dream, I’m looking forward to gettting Season 4 of Buffy next month so I can watch the joint dream and look for all of the supposed clues about Dawn.
Eh, I think the Beast referred to in the Darla Ressurection Ritual was the Beast of this season, which is not Jasmine.
But I have a quibble about an apparent INCONSISTENCY in Whedonverse continuity. Specifically, given the ritual that now makes every ‘potential’ Slayer an ‘actual’ Slayer, isn’t some of the logic of Fray blown out?
Okay, set aside that Buffy Series Finale (“Chosen”) did not contain the whatever-it-was that banished magic and demons from Earth for 200 years (what would that leave for Angel to do in his series?). While it doesn’t rule out Buffy as being the Slayer responsible for the whatever-it-was, it makes it seem a whole lot less likely.
The big inconsistency was that Urkonn was under orders to kill Melaka Fray and seek her replacement if Fray proved inadequate for the job. After Willow did the M(glottal stop) ritual, this made no sense — with the reappearance of lurks/vampires a whole *gaggle* of new Slayers should have appeared for Urkonn to choose from, without this your-no-good-so-I-gotta-off-you thing going on.
Ultimately, this means the multitude of Slayers is a temporary situation and the one-dies-another-is-called system will have to be reinstated to resolve this inconsistency. Which suggests Joss didn’t anticipate this plot point.
As I’ve pointed out in a previous posting, they’ve been running a slayer ahead ever since Kendra.
The Master ‘killed’ Buffy during season 1’s finale, but Xander successfully performed CPR in the preverbial nick of time.
But Buffy’s ‘death’ activated Kendra, and Kendra’s death (by Angelius-who when he kills someone, they stay dead) during season 2 activated Faith for season 3.
It will be Faith’s demise (double entrende?) that activates the next official Slayer. Remember: Buffy died again at the end of season 5 and no one showed up until the Potentials and Faith.
I would’ve paid as much as 500.00 for that hammer, just for the photos I could take with it.
But anything over 1,000 frightens me. Who are these people?
A thought on where the Slayer line is going…
I’m of the opinion (which I’m allowed, yay, creative interpretation ahoy!) that the original Slayer line still goes through Faith. When she dies, another will be called. However, all these new Slayers DON’T have successors. They die, T.S.
Follow this reasoning:
Buffy died, we got Kendra. Kendra died, we got Faith. Buffy died AGAIN…
…I saw no third Slayer. Did you?
So the power, while it can be bestowed to more than one Slayer at a time (otherwise why would Buffy have her powers after her first death if there wasn’t room to spread the Slayer Force around?), DOES have a line of succession that it follows.
Hey, it was the best I could come up with and I’m sticking to it.
I’m of the mind that Fray, at least at this moment (since Whedon has been saying that he wants to continue writing the comic past issue 8 and he might be able to tie it together), is not canon. I basically consider it to be the “What If?” of the Whedonverse, so there’s no need to assume Buffy continuity and Fray continuity should link up.
Hey, that’s a great idea. A “What If Buffy…?” comic would rock. They’ve been doing somethings like it: the Lost Slayer novel, the upcoming Chaos Bleeds comic, etc. I think Tales of the Slayer could spin off into even more books about the new potentials.
I have to say that Fray is the only Buffy Comic I read, but I plan on picking up the Tales of the Slayer when more come out.
Lee, a correction. Angellus didn’t kill Kendra, Dru did (in the library).
And I agree with the above poster that Faith is THE slayer, all those other girls (Buffy included) are cheats.
re: The Cheese Guy.
I saw Whedon at Wizard World con a few years back and he was asked about the Cheese guy. He told the crowd that Mr. Cheese meant nothing. He was put there for the sheer humor of it all.
Bobby Nash
Writer @ Large
I think the “Slayer line runs through Faith” (no pun intended) argument explains or rationalizes the situation the best. One has to take a restrictive view of Buffy’s “From now on…” speech to read “from now on, these wannaslays will be slayers” instead of “from now on sll wannaslays will be slayers,” but since that creates a much less goofy universe, I think we can all live with that interpretation. Among other things, it makes life more painless for the mothers of slayers. “Ooh, I can feel the baby kicking… AIIIEEEEEEE!” Actually, that might explain the real reason the slayer line died out before Fray’s time.
The Fray Issue is really the only logical gap I see in the finale. The “why didn’t someone do this before” argument from the last Buffy thread omits the minor detail that Willow needed a major artifact weapon to pull it off, and scythes don’t grow on trees. Then again, if the SlayerBoost(tm) is a one-generation thing, maybe someone has done it before.
Well, you can’t compare Neon Genesis Evangelion to Buffy or Babylon 5 in this regard, since Evangelion was a finite series with the majority of the plot completed before the first episode was filmed. They didn’t have to worry about keeping the formula going for years or starting new plots since there was only going to be one story told in the 26 episodes.
But it’s a great sci-fi series, and I do recommend it. I’d actually recommend the manga (comics) more, as I prefer the comics take on the series myself…
Latest fun bit on the auction; a copy of the final episode script autographed by most of the core cast (Gellar, Hannahan, Brendon, Head, Leak, Tractenberg, and also Whedon; no Dushku or Caulfield) is up to $11,000. Me, I’m still tempted by Warren’s jet pack…but I’ll definitely pass on the recently added Warren’s toga (from the “We are like Gods” bit).
Joss stated a couple of years ago at San Diego that the Slayer line ran only through Faith…”unless we come up with a really good story for it to still run through Buffy”.
Was posited on the Buffy panels at Baycon this weekend that Willow’s spell is what leads to the Frey continuity, as it continues to have aftereffects resulting in wiping out magic, demons, future Slayers, etc. In other words, they actually screwed up big time but don’t realize it yet.
On the issue of early foreshadowing: The first episode of the anime Cowboy Bebop includes scenes which don’t happen until the last episode.
I really enjoyed the last Buffy episode, even though her apparently-fatal through-and-through abdominal sword wound just suddenly quit bothering her for no apparent reason.
I do kind of wonder what they’re all going to do now that Sunnydale is gone (along with everything any of the characters owns beyond the clothes on their backs) and they have this busload of undocumented teenage girls with no legal guardian anywhere in sight…”You say you’re Ms. Jones’ guardian, Ms. Rosenberg? And you have no documents proving that? And she’s seventeen? And you’re…22? No job? No address? I see…well, I’ll just be calling Social Services then, shall I?”
“So, Mr…Giles, is it? You want to assume guardianship of these ten girls?…and your visa? Lost in the Sunnydale disaster, how very convenient…well, why don’t you just sit over there while I call the INS…”
Paul
Well, while I agree that in reality there will be lots of issues with INS, lost possessions, etc, I am also comforted by the fact that writers have the luxery of writing interesting stories and know that we will be spared the boring details of how those issues are resolved. I think it’s safe to say that we will either hear about it in a throw-away line somewhere down the road or we will never hear of it at all leaving it assumed that “they dealt.”
Andy
Firstly, I’m a british person who has seen the last show thanks to the wonder of the internet, so ha!
But anyway, I reckon that there are plently of obvious reasons to have the whole Fray, slayer-line thing sorted. If you can do the m(glottal-stop) to bring out the slayer-ness, you can probably reverse it. Also if something gets rid of all the demons, wouldn’t it get rid of the whole demonic slayer-essence thing?
As for the Shanshu thing, I’ve recently been re-watching the Angel dvds and although I didn’t hear the references to Spike by Angel recently, Shanshu means “will live/become human”, which Angel apparently will once the whole evil thing gets stopped. I wonder if Spike will reach Shanshu first?
Finally, I’ve been visiting this site since I discovered it recently and seeing how PAD is a fan of the Buffiverse and has written for Dark Horse before, why doesn’t he harrass them to let him write an issue or few. His writing style (having read the New Frontier) is really suited to the style of Buffy.
Charlie E/N
Buffy’s abdominal wound…my interpretation was that when she reached out and took Glowy Spike’s hand, and the flames appeared, they had some sort of healing property. It’s as good an explanation as any other. ALos, this way Spike’s last conscious act was to allow Buffy to escape…
In reference to the earlier comment, “Buffy died, we got Kendra. Kendra died, we got Faith. Buffy died AGAIN…I saw no third Slayer. Did you?” I’ve always taken Faith to be The Slayer, not Buffy; Faith assumed that role when Buffy went down the second time. When Buffy died for the third time, it didn’t matter because the offical Slayer, Faith, was still alive. It was only circumstance and life choices (and the title of the show) that allowed for Buffy to act the part of The Slayer. An Anti-Slayer, if you will, comparable to the Anti-Popes who would take over leadership of the Catholic Church even if he hadn’t been elected properly.
I’ve been wondering if that final-scene image of the “Welcome to Sunnydale” sign toppling over into the crater was a reference of some sort to Spike, whose arrival in Sunnydale was occasioned by a similar toppling over (crushed by his automobile) of a similar “Welcome to Sunnydale” sign.
Also, I wonder how much of this “foreshadowing” is just taking advantage of a line or scene to give the impression of foreshadowing.
On the second-season “Simpsons” DVD’s, the writers mention that they’ll often pick up ideas for future episodes from re-watching past episodes. For example, there’s a throwaway line of Bart mentioning that he’s building a soap box racer, and a year or two later they do an episode in which Bart races in a soap box derby. It seems like foreshadowing, or continuity, but it’s just scrounging for story ideas.
It’s still good, though. It makes it seem as though the writers are paying attention to what they’re doing.
Well I know B5 was fully planned before the Gathering was filmed, but jms had to make alterations to compensate for changes in actors.
But, otherwise all the foreshadowing on that show holds up.
By the by was it daylight when the mysterious hand pops up out of the ground in the finale? Because if it was surely Spike’s hand would’ve spontaneously combusted… unless he got shanshuified or whatever it is that makes him not a vampire anymore.
Also, Neon Genesis Evangelion – great show, great animation, but honestly you speak of continuation and resolution but where along the line do we discover the fates of Hikari, Toji and Kensuke?! 🙂
Anyhoo go PAD, New Frontier is super cool. (I don’t care how unhip that sounds)
OH! All of you in the States – pay attention to the new shows coming out and if you like spy stuff with all the real-life trimmings make sure you watch Spooks whenn it airs. I think they’re changing the name to M15 for US audienced but you’ve got to check it out. Only six episodes in the first season so its not too big a committment and episode four or five features none other than Anthony Stewart Head so make sure to keep you eyes open…