Just for chuckles, I looked in on the current John Byrne Fan Site since, a few months ago, they couldn’t wait to dismiss “Fallen Angel” as a Buffy rip-off. Now that they could actually read it and comment upon it, I was wondering if anyone would do so.
One guy started a thread and was immediately jumped on for launching an “off topic” thread (despite the plethora of “off topic threads” already extant) with such an “obvious agenda” (because apparently bringing up my work constitutes an agenda). I could just feel the warmth radiating from my monitor.
The best, though, was the genius who (not having read the book, of course) declared he thought that “Bludhaven” was “a lousy name for a town,” but he never thought he “would see another even worse. Who would call a town “Bete Noir”?? Or “Bludhaven” for that matter??”
Well, gee. I could have gone for something even more obvious, like Hëll, but that’s a real city in Michigan. Or perhaps Panic or Fearnot, but those are both in Pennsylvania. Some believe that Bete Noire is where the dead reside, so I could have called it River Styx, but that’s in Ohio. Peculiar would’ve been good, but the folks in Peculiar, Missouri, might have objected. Maybe the sound makes when one is scared: Eek. But no, that’s in Alaska, the state that also gave us a town called Chicken. The population of Bete Noire is eclectic, but we’d probably hear from the mayor of Eclectic, Alabama, who might have been tipped off to it by the mayor of another Alabama locale, Muck City.
I could have gone for something ironic and called it Plain City, but that’s in Utah, or Boring, but that’s in Maryland. Or just plain No Name, but that’s in Colorado. My search for a city name built to a Climax…Climax, North Carolina, not to be confused with Climax, Pennsylvania, which is also not to be confused with Intercourse, Pennsylvania.
And shall we discuss Monkeys Elbow, Kentucky or the name of another city in Louisiana…Uncle Sam, LA? Nah.
Man, whenever my name comes up anywhere on a Byrne related board, it’s always good for some laughs. The current fan board says “All New, All Different.” Seems pretty same old/same old to me.
PAD
• 
I’ll score him some points on this one by not taking the bait. His comments seemed (at least to me) a statement of annoyance at someone going “let you and he fight”–as based on past experience with such threads
Which part of the Newsarama piece was baiting Byrne into a fight?
Frank Cooper: Byrne accused PAD of not having the title character in SPIDER-MAN 2099 #1…
Luigi Novi: ???? Can you elaborate on this, Frank? What do you mean “not having the title character”?
And can someone tell me where the Byrne boards are? Are they the AOL ones that you can only access if you have the AOL browser? I notice that no one has provided a link or url.
Okay, I’ll accept there are towns with weird names, but my question is WHY create Bete Noir as a “stand-in” of sorts for New Orleans — why not just use New Orleans? I had the same problem with St. Roch in Hawkman.
Is there some editorial directive from DC to stick with the fictional city motif?
I doubt there’s an “editorial edict.” In fact, I imagine that it’s simply a matter of the writer(s) experiencing a bit more freedom in world-building with a fictional city. For instance, if PAD needs Bete Noir to have a corrupt, demonic mayor, he can easily do so; if he used, say, New Orleans, even slipping a fictional mayer into office as the corrupt demon, he could potentially face accusations of trying to say that the mayor of New Orleans isn’t exactly the best person out there. Likewise, it allows the locale to grow and change as the series progresses.
There clearly isn’t a general editorial edict against using real cities: the new Teen Titans series is set in San Francisco. (Using a fictional city also requires less research than a real one…)
Just type in John Byrne Message Board in Yahoo and you will find it within the first two or three responses.
“if you feel JB’s board is so fascist, why do you bother to participate on it?”
It’s already been pointed out that Steven didn’t say that about the board. As the person who *did* say it, I do want to reiterate that not everyone on the board is as horrible as I implied. In fact, as I said in the original post, some of the people I met there were not only intelligent, but extremely polite and fun to talk to.
However, there is an extremely vocal minority on the board (if you count by bodies… if you count by posts they’re WAY in the majority) that goes out of its way to be rude and condescending to anyone who doesn’t agree with them.
So, I don’t participate in the board anymore. Like PAD, I just occasionally visit for laughs. (And because sometimes the people there whom I like have something cool or interesting to say.)
Thanks, Jason. For anyone else who wants the link, it’s:
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=248951&messageid=1057818538&lp=1058307215
I went there, and finally got to read it myself. The hypocrisy and distortion there is quite amusing. It is stated on the main page for the boards that it is ”A place For John Byrne Fans to hang out, discuss comics, entertainment, etc., and anything and everything (within reason) to do with Comics Legend John Byrne!” Now I’m not sure if they mean comics, entertainment, etc. in general, AND anything and everything having to do with Byrne, or only comics and entertainment that HAS anything to do with him. Assuming it’s the latter, why is there a thread devoted to The League of Extraordinary Gentleman? Did I miss an issue of that book that Byrne wrote or drew? Did I miss his name in the credits of the movie? But when someone brings up Fallen Angel, he has an “agenda,” and the thread is locked down.
I also notice that Pierre Villeneuve, the poster who originally derided the use of names like Bete Noir and Bludhaven, stated this during the thead:
Pierre Villeneuve: I guess it should come as no surprise from someone who has to start a thread about how many times his name is mentioned in the Hulk enciclopedia.
It would appear that Pierre is not only somewhat close-minded when it comes to creative use of names, but a liar as well. Peter never started a thread about how many times his name was mentioned in the Encyclopedia. It was about how many times VARIOUS creators who have contributed important work to the series over the years were mentioned, of which he was only one, a distinction that Pierre, in his vitriolic zeal, refuses to acknowledge.
I would’ve posted this there, but it appears no further words on the topic are allowed. At least Peter doesn’t devote all his blogs to discussing himself, doesn’t tell everyone to talk about “comics legend Peter David,” and encourages visitors here to talk about sports, Broadway shows, politics, other comics, etc.
“Peter never started a thread about how many times his name was mentioned in the Encyclopedia. It was about how many times VARIOUS creators who have contributed important work to the series over the years were mentioned,”
Interestingly, this was brought up in an earlier thread over there. Someone made the same point you did, Luigi, and Byrne insisted that in spite of that, it was obvious that Peter David was trying to incite his fans to outrage specifically over his (PAD’s) lack of representation, and not over that of other creators.
In other words, it wouldn’t have done you any good to make the point. Mr. Byrne already has Mr. David’s motivations figured out, apparently. It’s pretty ridiculous.
One thing in defense of the man, though… that site isn’t run by him, but by one of his fans. So it’s not his ego, in this case, that has the site referring to him as a “Comics Legend,” simply the devotion of a fan. (The fan who runs the site, BTW, is in fact very cool and polite, and his behavior is impeccable from what I’ve seen. He seems pretty open-minded as well, and I’m guessing that he wouldn’t have locked down the “Fallen Angel” thread if Byrne hadn’t specifically asked him to.)
Which part of the Newsarama piece was baiting Byrne into a fight?
Frank, you know as well as I do that the simple mention of PAD’s name is usually enough to set Byrne off–Byrne doesn’t like PAD… at all. Not excusing the behavior, not even trying to explain it, it just is. The mention of PAD’s name leads to badness.
You being a prolific John Byrne Message Board troll knows this.
It’s already been pointed out that Steven didn’t say that about the board.
Matt’s statement was fair. I did agree with your statement, even if I was partly joking when I said it. If I can’t stand by what I said, then I shouldn’t have said it.
The One Name to Rule Them All: TOAD SUCK, ARKANSAS
I was originally going to say: I get the impression that John Byrne locked down the thread because he knew he was being baited and had the maturity not to fall for it.
I was going to say that, but after reading the posts on both boards, my main thought is: Why are people still talking about this? Aren’t the two writers involved supposed to be mature adults?
–Daniel M.
Steven: Understood. I was just clarifying why I felt complelled to answer Matt’s question, even though it was addressed to you.
Daniel: Well, speaking for myself, I think it’s cool when the two writers debate because PAD out-debates Byrne every time. For example, I brought a comment that Byrne made about PAD’s dissing “Chapter One” in Captain Marvel just because I knew PAD would say something cool and witty about it.
(Of course, then somebody brought PAD’s response back to the Byrne board trying to further enflame things, and I realized that probably what I’d done was not-so-cool. While I enjoy reading the David-Byrne wars, I’d feel like a jerk if I’d managed to help instigate one.)
In any case, I don’t think it’s a question of maturity. Mature people argue. Mature people enjoy watching debates. Nothing wrong with that.
\\**Which part of the Newsarama piece was baiting Byrne into a fight?
Frank, you know as well as I do that the simple mention of PAD’s name is usually enough to set Byrne off–Byrne doesn’t like PAD… at all. Not excusing the behavior, not even trying to explain it, it just is. The mention of PAD’s name leads to badness.**
You being a prolific John Byrne Message Board troll knows this. \\
I believe you’re saying that Byrne wasn’t baited into a fight by anyone else, but that his reactions are solely his own and his problem.
BTW, disagreeing is not trolling.
Frank Cooper: Byrne accused PAD of not having the title character in SPIDER-MAN 2099 #1…
Luigi Novi: ???? Can you elaborate on this, Frank? What do you mean “not having the title character”?
And can someone tell me where the Byrne boards are? Are they the AOL ones that you can only access if you have the AOL browser? I notice that no one has provided a link or url.
Regarding S-M 2099 #1: Byrne was doing one of rants about the ‘right way’ to do comics, and said a proper first issue should establish the character and show him in his costume. He pointed to Spider-Man 2099 # 1 as a perfect example of how NOT to do a first issue, citing as evidence S-M 2099’s failure to appear in costume.
Well, Byrne was completely wrong: S-M 2099 did indeed appear in costume in his first issue. PAD pointed this out to Byrne, and may have asked JB for a retraction or apology. JB did not acknowledge the request.
As time passed, JB eventually admitted THAT HE NEVER READ SPIDER-MAN 2099 #1. He said that he flipped through the issue in the comic shop and it SEEMED to him that S-M 2099 didn’t appear in costume ENOUGH. Therefore, since that was JB’s impression, he was not actually wrong and owed no one an apology.
One thing in defense of the man, though… that site isn’t run by him, but by one of his fans. So it’s not his ego, in this case, that has the site referring to him as a “Comics Legend,” simply the devotion of a fan. (The fan who runs the site, BTW, is in fact very cool and polite, and his behavior is impeccable from what I’ve seen. He seems pretty open-minded as well, and I’m guessing that he wouldn’t have locked down the “Fallen Angel” thread if Byrne hadn’t specifically asked him to.)
I wouldn’t be so kind about the guy. He has said in the past that the PAD AOL board makes him sick, and he banned Machiavelli for ‘being nice.’
To me it’s about a persons character. How well do they handle a debate when faced with opinions other than their own?
My first and only run in with Mr. Byrne happened shortly after the debut of PAD’s Supergirl. JB had posted on the DC Message Boards that PAD had ruined the character with his changes to what he (JB) had established in Superman. This led to PAD defending his artistic license and JB being a snot. I emailed both gentlemen presenting my case for enjoying what PAD had done…basically outlining why I never cared for the Matrix Supergirl but explaining the merit of the character that JB had created. The short of it was that everyone had an opinion based on their own individual likes and dislikes. I closed by posing the question “How can someone be wrong in a debate about what they like or dislike?” PAD emailed me back stating that I made valid points and that he appreciated my being candid. JB emailed me back saying roughly thank you but you are wrong.
I stopped following JB and quickly began picking up every PAD book I could find even to this day.
Frank Cooper: Regarding S-M 2099 #1: Byrne was doing one of rants about the ‘right way’ to do comics, and said a proper first issue should establish the character and show him in his costume. He pointed to Spider-Man 2099 # 1 as a perfect example of how NOT to do a first issue, citing as evidence S-M 2099’s failure to appear in costume.
Luigi Novi: The problem with this logic is that it implies that there is a predetermined cookie cutter paradigm for doing this, and that if it is done without fulfilling every single trait and aspect of that model, that it fails outright, which is horseshit. It reminds me of the people who dismiss DS9 not on grounds of writing or acting, but because it’s set on a station. Any type of story—first issue of a comic, middle installment of a movie trilogy or final episode of a TV series—rises and falls on the overall manner in which the story is executed—plot, theme, & character, and in the case of comics, the artwork.
Such a judgment about the character being in costume ignores the fact that there are different ways of doing things, and that just because one method doesn’t feature every single familiar staple of an archetype, doesn’t mean it can’t be successful. The idea that Spider-Man 2099 would’ve failed if Miguel hadn’t been in costume is bunk.
Frank Cooper: As time passed, JB eventually admitted THAT HE NEVER READ SPIDER-MAN 2099 #1. He said that he flipped through the issue in the comic shop and it SEEMED to him that S-M 2099 didn’t appear in costume ENOUGH. Therefore, since that was JB’s impression, he was not actually wrong and owed no one an apology.
Luigi Novi: What a bunch of šhìŧ.
Spidey first appears in a big double-page spread on pages 2-3 (appearing in costume before he even appears out of it), and in a total of six pages out of a 22 page comic book. More than a quarter, less than a third. If Byrne really did say this (and I don’t know if he did), then was obviously splitting hairs, trying desperately not to be wrong, changing the original “rule” entirely, and applying a standard he can’t possibly believe in, and probably doesn’t hold other comics to.
Frank Cooper: One thing in defense of the man, though… that site isn’t run by him, but by one of his fans. So it’s not his ego, in this case, that has the site referring to him as a “Comics Legend,” simply the devotion of a fan.
Luigi Novi: Much in the same way that Glenn Hauman runs Peter’s site. But Byrne is responsible for that which he puts his seal of approval on.
JB had posted on the DC Message Boards that PAD had ruined the character with his changes to what he (JB) had established in Superman.
Luigi Novi: Interesting that he has never had any compunction about retconning the work of others himself, as when he ignored the work Kurt Busiek did on Amazing Fantasy 16-18 when he did Spider-Man Chapter One. I wonder if he feels the same way about how his version of Krypton, Jor-El and infant Kal-El’s origin was treated by the current team on Superman a while back.
True Story. when i moved to LA 3 years ago I left my comic I left my comic collection back at the old family homestead in Salem MA.
Six months ago that house was sold and I was told by my family back east that there was no room to bring my comics to the new house. After much pleading, they agreed to save 3 (short) boxes. Out of 21 boxes and 22 years of collecting, here’s what I saved: The Marvel run of Star Wars, ROM, Spaceknight (even the Ditko issues), The Simonson Thor run, Hulk (unbroken run from #227 unitl the end of the series),Aquaman, the earlier issues of Supergirl I had left behind, and JOHN BYRNE’s complete run on Fantastic Four (still some of the best FF stories out there) and Alpha Flight.
I haven’t liked anything John as done in years, but boy, his good stuff was good.
If Byrne and PAD’s comics can live to together in harmony in my comic box, why can’t Byrne and PAD fans live together in real life?
Pennsylvania’s got tons of great town names (the aforementioned Intercourse being one of them, which led to a colleague of mine saying “I prefer Intercourse myself” when discussing town names — other people who’d missed the beginning then took the conversation in … other directions), but I’m surprised at one omission:
Massachusetts’ tendency to name towns after people. John Forster has a whole song called “Entering Marion” which deals with the whole thing, and it’s pretty funny. I’m sure someone else here must’ve run into it.
TWL
who sees no problem with Bete Noire
Yes! I know “Entering Marion” from one of Dr. Demento’s anniversary collections (the 25th?). Funny stuff.
Luigi Novi: The problem with this logic is that it implies that there is a predetermined cookie cutter paradigm for doing this, and that if it is done without fulfilling every single trait and aspect of that model, that it fails outright, which is horseshit. It reminds me of the people who dismiss DS9 not on grounds of writing or acting, but because it’s set on a station. Any type of story—first issue of a comic, middle installment of a movie trilogy or final episode of a TV series—rises and falls on the overall manner in which the story is executed—plot, theme, & character, and in the case of comics, the artwork.
It’s a common Byrne trait to spout story-telling ‘rules’ as he attempts to tear down others’ work. I think I remember some rule about how many issues a subplot can be the B story before it MUST be the A story.
Often he doesn’t follow his rules, which makes one wonder.
They’re at it again. There’s a Captain Marvel thread on Pruitt’s board which is being suggested as something that shouldn’t be posted at all.
I live at 53528 Commonwealth in Seattle. Been up here before?