That was a question daughter Caroline asked me over lunch today.
“Of course not,” I said.
“Because some people say she is,” continued Caroline, “because she learned about being a Jedi so much faster than Luke.”
Operating on the unlikely possibility that someone doesn’t know what a Mary Sue is: She is a character who first launched in a satire of Star Trek fan fiction. Mary Sue is generally young, superb at every undertaking, serves as a sort of wish fulfillment of the author, is beloved by the existing cast of characters, typically shows up the lead, and–not required but not atypical–oftentimes dies and is grieved by everyone.
There are contentions that Rey falls into that category because she was so formidable a Jedi by the end of “The Force Awakens.” She was able to manipulate minds with the Force, could levitate a lightsaber to her hand, and defeated a trained Jedi master in their first lightsaber battle.
“Inconceivable!” shouted fandom.
“Perfectly understandable!” replied yours truly.
Here’s why:
Luke Skywalker had to go through a learning process, and as he learned, so did we. We didn’t have the slightest idea that Jedi’s could raise stuff with the power of their minds until “Empire Strikes Back,” wherein Luke raised a lightsaber to himself, Yoda lifted an X-Wing fighter, and Darth Vader mentally hurled pieces of junk at Luke during the climactic battle.
We didn’t see what a fully empowered Jedi could do until Luke took down Jabba the Hutt almost singlehandedly, and later defeated his father. It wasn’t until I saw a fully trained Luke in action that I accepted the claim that the Jedis had kept peace in the galaxy for generations.
The thing is, now that we know everything that a Jedi can do, were we really supposed to spend three MORE movies watching Rey traverse a path that we had already seen? When she mind manipulated the guard (a disguised Daniel Craig) we knew that Jedis could do that because we saw Obi-Wan do it. When she pulled the lightsaber to herself we knew that Jedis could do that because we saw Luke do it. There would have been no dramatic pull watching her learning how to do stuff that we had already witnessed happening in previous movies. The whole point of a voyage of discovery is that we learn stuff alongside the POV character. If all we did was watch her learn things we already knew, that would have been boring as hëll.
Furthermore there was a story context: Kylo Ren, in probing her mind, obviously flipped some sort of switch in which she suddenly understood the potential of the power she had within her. It was only after that moment that her powers began to materialize.
Rey being as talented as she was had nothing to do with her being a Mary Sue; it happened because of dramatic necessity.
Let us also remember that yes, she beat Kylo Ren, but he wasn’t at his best. He was suffering from a wound inflicted on him by an infuriated Chewbacca and blood was dripping down from it. Hëll, the first time they met, he knocked her out in five seconds. If she’d been facing off against a 100% Kylo Ren, it might well have gone quite differently.
Nor did she supersede the lead character; she spent the entirety of her first film looking for him. When she found him, that led into the second film, The Last Jedi, another film that fans love to decry. Why do they hate it? Because it wasn’t the film they would have made. From the moment Luke threw the lightsaber away over his shoulder, they despised it because it wasn’t giving them the beats that they had cooked up in their own minds. How dare Luke be too depressed to leap back into battle. How dare he teach the hated Rey. And the biggest sin of all: How dare we learn that Rey’s parents were no one in particular. A couple of brain addled schmucks who sold their daughter for drug money and got stuck in debtor’s graves? The film did nothing that they expected, and rather than celebrate being surprised, they vented their spleen against the film, the director, the actors…everyone they could think of.
Oh, and of course there’s the greatest sin of all. Rey was a female. If Rey had been a guy, fans would have said, “Cool, he’s almost as bad-ášš as Luke.” But because Rey was a female, the reaction instead was, “How dare this girl be almost as bad-ášš as Luke!” Fans will deny this, of course, but until Rey came along, the entire Star Wars universe in film had exactly two female characters: Leia and Mon Mothma, the latter of whom didn’t have much to do at any point except bark orders and look worried. The fact that the new films changes the male/female ratio simply infuriates fans who think the modern creators have no business adding additional females (with the exception of Phasma because you can’t see her face and also she’s played by Brienne of Tarth, an acceptable ášš kicker in and of herself.)
So no. Rey is not a Mary Sue. She’s a tough nut Jedi who had her abilities expedited to avoid dramatic repetition. And The Last Jedi was a great follow-up if you’re willing not to hate it just because it didn’t tell the story you wanted to tell.
PAD
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Rey didn’t show up the lead because Rey IS the lead. Luke no longer is. He’s the mentor figure now that Obi-Wan was to him.
Kylo didn’t so much flip a switch in her brain as her instinctive resistance to his mind probe pushed back so hard she pushed into HIS mind, saw his fears, and apparently “downloaded” some training subconsciously. When she heard Craig’s helmet coms, the mind trick popped into her head, and she tried it. Took a few attempts before it worked. And even then, she wasn’t too clear on what she’d done, as when she reunited with Finn and he asked he how she escaped, her response was “I’m not sure — and you wouldn’t believe me”.
An additional comment on Kylo’s wound. This was one of the too-subtle-for-many-viewers things. We’d spent the movie establishing how powerful Chewie’s (new?) bowcaster was, as every shot blew bad guys dozens of feet through the air. Kylo took that shot in the gut and… didn’t budge. But yeah, he was definitely hurting by the time he fought Rey.
Lastly, I still don’t buy the whole “Rey’s parents were nobodies who sold her for booze money and were buried in paupers’ graves” thing. The parting with her parents (or at least her mother) was scripted, is in the novel, and there’s concept art of the ship we see flying away in Rey’s flashback on the ground with people clustered at the foot of the ramp. He mother said “we’ll be back” before they flew off. I’m gonna repeat that again for the slower kids. Rey’s parents, the penniless drunks who needed drinking money so badly they sold their daughter, flew away from Jakku in a pretty darn big and spiffy looking ship. Which further complicates the notion that they’re buried on Jakku. I’m pretty sure Kylo’s seeing her worst fears about who they were and what happened, just as she saw his fear he’ll never be as strong as his granddad. But not actual fact.
But, for all of that, still not a Mary Sue. She fails lots of times, but is also strong and capable in a way surviving in the environment she’d spent the last decade or so in would make one. Tough, shrewd, and skilled at staff fighting (note: those are largely staff forms she’s using with that lightsaber). If Luke and Anakin get passes at being able to hop into starfighter cockpits and fly in combat with zero training but based on innate ability, so should Rey, who’s actually worked hard to get to where she is.
“Rey didn’t show up the lead because Rey IS the lead. Luke no longer is. He’s the mentor figure now that Obi-Wan was to him.”
I can’t quite agree with this. Obi-Wan understood the need and accepted his responsibility in training Luke. Luke, on the other hand, seems to be doing his utmost to run away from those responsibilities.
I think the way learning the Force as it appears in the original movies is not about acquiring a skill through long years of practice. It’s more about getting into the right state of mind. That’s how Luke learns To hit the Death Star in Star Wars, And that’s why Luke can learn to be a Jedi in a week and n Degobah, but only becomes a Jedi after facing his father.
I inferred that Luke’s training on Dagobah was longer than just a week, although no specific length was stated. I haven’t looked at a map lately, but Bespin has to be orbiting a companion star to Hoth (as the Verse is in Firefly or the colonies on Battlestar Galactica) since Han and Leia were able to make the trip on sub-light drive. Even then, you have to make the assumption that the Falcon can greatly accelerate continuously for a long period, then do a 180 degree flip for the other half-trip of deceleration while maintaining a 1 g field inside the ship, and that Han and Chewie had a really good supply of consumables (oxygen, water, food, power for heating/cooling/lights/etc. We could be seeing a period of several months there, as Yoda had to have the time required since he really had to work at it to make Luke unlearn what he had learned, and Han and Leia had to have enough time to actually fall in love, not just in lust.
Simple explanation: the Force is stronger in Rey than in Kylo Ren. Darth Tantrum is strong in the Force too, but lacks self control.
“Darth Tantrum, super-Jedi. I like the sound of that.”
Eh. I enjoyed The Force Awakens, but Last Jedi at first left me cold, then with questions, then with annoyance when I realized most of the plot, as shown, completely falls apart upon analysis and only makes sense if you’re the one willing to fill in the story blanks. Some bits I liked… but the entire daring plan being borked because they parked illegally? Therefor resulting in them recruiting a cellmate who just HAPPENED to allegedly have the same skills they were looking for? Only for him to somehow know every aspect of Holdo’s secret escape plan to tell the First Order? A plan kept so secret everyone thought they were going to die? And in terms of storytelling, it still bugs me that during what is essentially an ongoing space chase with the First Order chugging along JUST out of range, a chase where they keep stressing that fuel is an all-important commodity… people can just casually take a trip out of the fleeing flagship and return with impunity, and somehow no enemy ship can do so.
Like I said, some moments I liked and came pretty close to classic SW, but some bits felt too much like sloppy or convenient storytelling. (Yeah, I know a LOT of movies, classic Star Wars included, tend to rely on coincidence, but I found my credibility strained just a bit, especially given the lack if convincing, on-screen reasons to drive the plot)
There are several different negative reactions to The Last Jedi.
There are those who didn’t like it because of choices the writer/director made in regards to characters.
There are those who didn’t like it because they don’t like strong female characters.
There are those who didn’t like it because of a poorly crafted story, with lots of plot holes.
Unfortunately, most of the articles that I see describing fandom reactions and defenses that I hear or read seem to focus on the first two cases, only.
I love strong female leads. I thought Luke’s reaction to the light sabre and his years of isolation were a good touch. Rey’s parents being “nobodies” was perfect. The acting from everyone was good. The action was good. The production qualities were good.
But the story was a shambles. Blindpew mentions some of it. There’s much more. I would love to have a discussion along those lines, but that never seems to happen. I can relate more of my issues with the movie, if anyone cares, but I wanted to at least say that I was glad to read this one comment.
Hah! Well, don’t even get me started about how it was made to seem like the “Knights of Ren” would be a major story factor… only to find Kylo’s Sith boy band is mentioned once and never plays into anything.
Or how Phasma was played up as a big deal, only… we never really SEE much interaction between her and Finn to get much of a grasp on their relationship, or why we should even care about their (non) confrontation in The Last Jedi where she basically gets Boba Fett’ed? Without a decent grasp of their relationship prior, there’s zero audience emotional stakes in the outcome.
Yeah, I know, people say “kid’s movie, etc. etc.”. But when they say at the outset they want to please new AND old fans, lazy storytelling just bugs the crap out if me, especially with something that has become as mythological as SW. It’s like they had an ending and just twisted circumstances and characters to get there, helmed by a director who seemed more concerned about “putting his mark” on the film by trying to be too clever-clever with the “subverting expectations” excuse
One small correction : it was Leia who took down Jabba the Hutt, not Luke. And she did it wearing a slave girl outfit to boot. But apart from that, I agree with all your comments, Peter.
Luke was enough of a Jedi to be able to foresee much of what happened (not all, as with the Rancor), so he was able to construct the plan. At least that’s what I get from Peter’s comment that Luke “took down Jabba…almost single-handedly.” He set it up, gave everyone their parts to play, without telling some of the participants about all of it — it always seems to be better to keep Threepio in the dark about what’s going on around him so his neural net couldn’t be downloaded against his, what is for a droid, will.
I didn’t like The Last Jedi because they changed Luke into a character that no longer had nobility. It was an unnecessary change. I get it that a character may not be the same person after 40 years, but some people DO stay intrinsically the same. Captain Kirk is essentially the same person after FIFTY years… even after his son was killed and even with JJ Abrams making such a mess of things with him. Some people may argue that no change shows a lack of character advancement, I say it shows character consistency.
And I have absolutely no problem with Rey being a woman… but I feel that she is indeed a Mary Sue- just without the death part. I don’t think that she was intended to be one, but she falls into the category nonetheless. It’s not necessarily a bad thing. Why does she need to be pigeon-holed anyhow? She’s a strong character with a solid story being written about her (so far). If she was a male character, no one would even think about her purpose in a storyline as long as she was kicking ášš and doing things that we cheered for. I think that it’s a non-issue.
Personally, given the (understandable) decision to wipe the old extended continuity, I find Luke’s journey not only fascinating, but understandable.
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If you think about it, he was never really trained. He was given the crash course (and partial information) necessary to turn him into a blunt instrument and turned loose on Vader and Palpatine. As luck (or the Force) would have it, after rushing off half-cocked (more in a moment) and having some of that misinformation called into question, he was still able to fulfill that purpose. And then…what?
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The hero of the Rebellion found himself in the shadow of a reputation that he couldn’t live up to. But he tried anyway. Unfortunately, his propensity for rash decisions continued. He was able to rein in his impulses…just not in time to dissuade Ben Solo of all the lies Snoke had apparently (somehow) been feeding him. And his world came crashing down around him. So, he did exactly what his mentors did when faced with such a failure: he turned tail, ran, and hid.
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From my Certain Point of View (TM & copyright Lucasfilm), if we decide that we’re not going to have Luke the super-hero from the old post-RotJ continuity, Luke the hermit makes perfect sense. I can get how people might not care for it. In some ways, what we’ve been told happened with Luke in the new canon reminds me of what happened to Wesley Crusher in PAD’s Strike Zone novel: he started to believe his own press, and it turned out poorly.
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Not trying to change your mind…you didn’t care for it, and that’s how it goes. Just tossing out a different perspective.
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–Daryl
Hey! I appreciate the different perspective!
PAD’s got his, I’ve got mine and you’ve got yours. I never expected to sway anyone’s opinion, I was just voicing my own. AND I agree with some of your thoughts regarding Luke’s possible motivations for changing the way that he apparently did…
but I still didn’t like the movie.
Oh, I just felt like I should put that disclaimer in there because, far too often online, if a different perspective is put out there, it’s taken in the context of, “I disagree with you; here’s how you have to see it.” Figured better safe than sorry. 🙂
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–Daryl
That’s pretty much what I thought about what happened to Luke. I’m glad I’m not alone in that!
It should be pointed out that the fan fiction that first introduced us to the term “Mary Sue” was meant as a parody of the type of fan fiction often written by young (and, often but not exclusively, female) fans in which the writer creates a “perfect, beloved” character as a means by which to insert themselves, or at least their influence, into the story (and often have a romantic relationship with whoever the author’s favorite character is). Most of us who are creatively inclined have likely done this at one time or another, whether or not the story has been shared with anyone. I know I have.
The term has grown a bit now, to also indicate any character who seems a bit too perfect, or a bit too incapable of doing any wrong. Sometimes it indicates a character clearly favored by the author, but disliked by fans.
I don’t feel that Rey is a Mary Sue. I understand why other people may love her to death, but for my part I’m still waiting for her to become interesting. Her back and forth with Kylo Ren leaves me completely cold; it’d be different if he was somehow redeemable, but c’mon. He killed Han. Dude’s gotta die.
I don’t hate Rey. In fact I would have far preferred it if they had just concentrated on these new fairly interesting characters and just mentioned Luke, Han and Leia or had a short cameo scene of them. Trying to shoehorn them in to the story and missing decades of what has happened with them because of how much real time has passed is what is holding these new films back in my opinion. I of course love Han, Leia, Luke and other characters from the original films but none of them apart from maybe Leia and C-3PO is acting in a way that is consistent with what I know and love about them. I am all for being surprised but they are all just acting so out of character that I wasn’t really that upset when Han and Luke died which I would have been if they were the characters I previously knew and loved. Han in particular was really annoying me. It is so sad that Carrie Fisher has passed away as she was the only one that was acting closest to what I loved and knew about the character. That being said I will watch the new films out of curiosity more than anything but I am not particularly hurrying to the cinema as I was with the prequels which I think are very underrated.
Also meant to say that I far prefer most of the books that have followed on from Return of the Jedi. The character I know and love have changed and developed (and sometimes surprised the hëll out me) but due to the nature of books it has happened in a much more organic, natural way. Most importantly I still love each of every one of the original characters and enjoyed the new characters in these stories including Han and Leia children. I can’t stand Kylo Ren, he is not even a half interesting bad guy just an idiot with a light saber.
I dunno. I feel like the whole debate surrounding identity politics has become increasingly poisonous, heated, and polarized, particularly online.
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Full disclaimer: I identify as a moderate lefist. But I’m more or less annoyed by both sides of the debate and their insistence in micro-analyzing every last movie or TV show according to race or gender.
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Back to the initial question, though. No, Rey is no more a Mary Sue than Luke. I agree with PAD here.
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However, characters like her will always be in a sort of Catch-22. Introducing new characters in brand new franchises is hard. It’s far easier to retreat old franchises. And then, the new guy (or gal, in this case) will always be compared to the old guy.
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Characters like Rey and Carol Danvers suffer an additional burden, IMO. While Rey is no more a Mary Sue than Luke was, the truth is, she isn’t all that different from Luke. I have no trouble that other people are thrilled that the Chosen One or the Galactic Saviour now is female. More power to them. However, I don’t think just being female makes a character of this type inherently more interesting than all the other Chosen Ones and Galactic Saviours that came before.
The most ridiculous thing about this is that Luke Skywalker is easily the biggest Mary Sue in western media. The term originated as a parody of self-insert characters.
Luke Skywalker.
Luke S.
Lucas.
With all due respect Mr. David (and I do believe that is quite a bit), you have little evidence to support your claim that it is a mater of sexism that Rey is not embraced.
I for one did not like either “The Last Jedi” or “The Force Awakens.” I found Rey to be a dull an uninteresting character.
However, I did enjoy Rogue One and Jyn Erso, who is also a a woman… as well as British and Brunette (wait a minute).
How would that factor into such a claim?
I don’t know from Mary Sues, but I do know that the dismissive nature many have taken over dislike for the character is anything but grounded.
In “The Force Awakens” I found Rey to be very uninteresting. I personally put this to the belief that Abrams overlooked the need for quite or character building moments. He was too anxious to get to the excitement.
As much there was nothing there to latch onto. To connect with. Does that make her a Mary Sue? I really couldn’t tell you.
It is however indicative of the problems in that film. For example, The First Order’s ill-defined nature, and muddled aspects.
They scream with full emotion were as the Empire was cold and calculating. The destruction of Alderan was felt through Leia’s sorrow (who we had gotten to like), and was done because the desired target was too small. They eradicated representative government, and mentioned in passing at a meeting.
To paraphrase Stephen King in reference to the Shining, it was a gorgeous car, with no motor. On any level.
I skipped “The Last Jedi,” simply saying I had my Star Wars, let this be for someone else.
Still, I kept hearing about it, for months. Some said it was the best ever. Some gave reviews that halted just short of implying it called for a white genocide, or enslaving all men.
Either way, I thought it would be entertaining to watch. I was wrong.
I found it to be just… lame. The characters remained uninteresting. They introduced elements that could have been interesting, but never developed them.
They kept cutting form Rey, just as she was about to get interesting. Her relationship with Luke could have been fascinating.
Her relationship with Kylo COULD have been interesting. Instead, they only left parts to be picked up later… maybe.
I didn’t think it was fantastic. I didn’t think it was destroying masculinity. i just thought it was a lame movie. When I talked to people about it, most of the ones who didn’t like it felt the same way.
If you or anyone else disagrees, that is fine. I won’t call you or they a “cuck,” or “SJW,” or “shill,” or whatever the buzzword around the internet is this week.
I will simply assume you have different taste then me.
Quite honestly, the thing that marvels me is that this is such a rare concept.
That should be the most obvious answer, but no side wants to accept it.
Just like some fans through out demeaning or insulting language at those who do like it, those who don’t are accused of some sort of bigotry.
In both cases, there is rarely anything to back it up than just a subtle gut feeling.
Now personally, I think it is in relation to our society putting pop culture higher in our connectivity than national identity, common values,religion, and so forth.
However, it isn’t right for those either.
There is nothing wrong with liking or disliking a movie.
There is something VERY wrong about leaning on beliefs about those who disagree with you based on nothing. Yes, there are some jáçkáššëš on the internet who may fit that descriptions, but it is rarely the majority.
That assertion you make that not liking it can only be because it didn’t meet some expectation of what Star Wars should be, is less than admirable.
I have a great deal of respect for you as a writer. While you are predominantly a writer of fiction, you do well to weave interesting and even complex ideas into your works.
I know you often give a decent amount of thought to what you put on paper.
I don’t think you should just stick to writing comics only. You have just as much write to express your opinions as anyone else.
I just think in this case, at least part of what you wrote, doesn’t pass the smell test.
Bravo.
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Can’t agree more. It has become impossible to just like or dislike certain movies or shows without someone attaching a label to you, sometimes even something utterly ridiculous, like “rape apologist” if you like something the new left disapproves or “defender of white genocide” if you like something the new right disapproves.
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But personally I don’t think that is because society has put pop culture on a pedestal akin to religion. Well, perhaps a little bit. To me it’s just part of the general trends that have allowed the right to become ever more radical and the left to up the ante to catch up.
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The left is particularly strident on this, because entertainment and the arts are territories it has the home advantage, and it’s seen by many as a avenue for resistance against the horrible man that currently sits in the White House.
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Well, you’re comparing apples to pomegranates here.
See, with all the admiration you have for “Rogue One” and Jyn Erso, neither that film nor the character specifically has any interaction with Luke Skywalker nor does either make any significant alteration to the original (mythologized) trilogy. All the film did was to “fill in” a blank that almost no one had really cared about prior to the film’s release. I don’t think I’d ever given a thought of my own about how Leia got the plans or even about the plans themselves much less the whole brouhaha that took place getting them. (Maybe we could get a new “prequel” film that does show a young Luke shooting womp rats to justify his “Star Wars: A New Hope” claim. I mean, I know *I* want to see a movie showing ninety minutes to two hours of young Luke Skywalker doing target practice to back up a ten-second brag. How do you supposed Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen felt about Luke’s hours/days/months of doing that instead of tending to his regular chores? The world MUST KNOW!!!!)
If you don’t like the movie that is fine. Honestly, I didn’t see a need for it either, until I watched it.
I will not pretend it is my favorite Star Wars film, or that it is a flawless work. Or that there weren’t things that bugged me about choices made.
I did find it enjoyable enough to believe the good outweighed the bad.
However, I don’t believe that is i comparing apples and oranges.
Both characters are the lead (and brunettes and British… anyone else think that is weird for an American franchise?).
And since the claim is that their is an element of sexism in not liking Rey, both women.
Both exist in the same universe, with the same baggage.
Both needed to be the center of the story, and hold focus.
Only one of the characters did so for me.
“With all due respect Mr. David (and I do believe that is quite a bit), you have little evidence to support your claim that it is a mater of sexism that Rey is not embraced.
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“I for one did not like either “The Last Jedi” or “The Force Awakens.” I found Rey to be a dull an uninteresting character.”
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Yeah… Except that what you’re saying here amounts to little more than saying, “I’m not racist, so there can’t possibly be racist motivations behind people not liking that black character.”
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Luke can be a farm boy who hops into an intense combat situation by the end of the film where he’s trusted over experienced fighter pilots to be the guy chosen to make the last, desperate run, but, dear god, it’s too much of a stretch for a girl who has been living her life in such a way that she’s had to learn to fight to take care of herself can handle herself in a fight.
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I’m sorry, but I’ve been around a lot of people who say things like that and go on to make it extremely clear in no uncertain terms that their issue with the new Star Wars films is not enough straight white male leads and too much of that evil “diversity” thing.
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You may not have an issue with the character based on gender. That doesn’t mean it hasn’t been a clearly stated reason by many for hating the character of Rey and the new films in general.
Jerry Chandler, I would like to thank you, or proving my point.
I never maid any claims that Rey was any less likely than Luke to be the protagonist than Rey.
I even subtlety acknowledged that there are some people out there who openly have a problem with Rey because she is a woman. The ones who claim she is “an attack in masculinity.”
I distanced myself from them. I don’t even think that is sexism, that is something way furtehr down the line I want no part.
But, none of that mattered to you. You made an assertion that my post was similar to saying “I am not a racist but…”
You jumped to this based off of absolutely nothing. You at least gave no evidence other than claiming to know other people who did not like the movie, who are not me.
It was insult to my character, from someone who does not know me, and I would like to respond.
I made a clear point to say that there is no problem liking this movie, because tastes very.
You conversely implied I was what a sexist?
I prefer Erso because she is a different character than Rey.
That is why I brought it up.
Rey as a character seems dull to me. Not even just boring. Like her per personality is dull.
Much of her seems muted… passive at times. More reactionary. Not entirely, but more than I like.
And the one thing that I could say really describes her as a character is that she just wants to be loved and accepted.
She is defined by the parental figure she runs into.
Which is something normally don’t like in a character… or at least a protagonist. i want to emphasize this to make sure it is understood… I’m not saying that is wrong. I’m saying it is something I don’t like in my protagonist.
I think there are a lot of elements that could have been done well, I just think Abrams, and later Rain, didn’t expand on it.
I feel like Abrams wanted to stoke mystery, and Rian was more focused on themes. As such, the characters seemed less alive. Less real.
In fact, I have noticed most of the people I know who DO like “The Last Jedi,” tend to talk ore about those themes.
This lack of life is not helped by Abrams seeming desire to get to the big stuff as soon as possible, and as often as possible. You know… the lightsabers, the shoot outs, the space battles.
There seemed, to me, a lack of small moments. Not things commonly associated with Star Wars, But Luke talking to Obi Wan and learning about his father… arguing with Uncle Owen… Mourning them… Arguing with Han….Han mocking Luke as he trains with the lightsaber… it all made them more alive.
It also doesn’t help that Lucas was quite over the top, and Rey was seemingly intentionally more subdued as a character. Kylo Ren went in the other direction.
There were parts in TLJ I found myself starting to become interested in Rey, but they stopped before they really got into the stuff I at least would have been interested in.
As for Erso, she was more dynamic. She was a rebel among rebels. She had her own desires and needs. She had a backstory that got my mind zeroed in, I was brought into her world.
She had tragedy. Rey did too… eventually.
She was admittedly, more like Han Solo. Who is, arguably, more popular than Luke. He is also a personality type somewhat missing from the new trilogies main characters.
I like desperation angle. Hope has been thrown round in Star Wars for decades, but this was the first time you felt like it was something that might be in short supply.
And it subverted the Star Wars style way more than TLJ did.
I’m not trying to defend that movie. If you like it you like it. If not you don’s.
Hëll, maybe I just prefer my female protagonists to have a bit more attitude. Some grit. Personality.
Does that make me a sexist. I wouldn’t have thought so, but according to your logic… I guess so, it was just me trying to prove I am not a sexist.
But I do wonder about you. What is your basis for the claim?
Why does someone’s views on gender politics have to be defined by this movie?
Why does every bad-ášš, clever, tough, strong female character have to take a backseat to this one movie?
Ripley, Nancy Thompson, Kathy Dollenganger, Sarah Conner, Cassandra Cain, Storm, Angel Archer, Christine Sullivan, Nocenti’s Typhoid Mary, Dana Scully, and plenty more, are off the table?
Why is this movie alone what allows you to make that call on people you have never met?
To not be a sexist, do I have to like every female character, regardless of if I would if they were a man?
I guess my real question is, why jump right into accusations.
Why not defend Rey? Say what she brings to the table, why I should like her.
I said n my first post that I saw TLJ five months after it came out, getting both sides of the debate. It is possible that skewed me. Shouldn’t that have been the first instinct?
After I specifically stated that people having different tastes is fine. That if you like this movie, I will assume it is just different tastes. Why do you not extend to me that same courtesy to me?
Why do so many people have a seemingly dogmatic belief that their tease is the only way, and there must be a problem with someone who disagrees?
Do you think perhaps this mentality is why everything from politics to pop culture seems to be gridlocked and hateful?
You made a rather distasteful assumption about me, one I found rather personally offensive, and again based off of seemingly nothing.
I don’t know why. My presumption is that you started with a conclusion, and worked your way backwards to prove it.
No proof on my end, just a theory.
I provided my defense, please be so kind as to do the same.
Jerry Chandler…
Just to be clear, I don’t mean defense of the movie.
You want to add that in, fine. Perhaps I can be swayed.
I meant of why that is the conclusion you jumped too.
Wow, Jack, you have some serious reading comprehension issues.
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Or you’re of the “protests too much” school of blogger.
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I did not insult your character. I took you at your word. You say your issues with Rey are simply character, not sexism. Nowhere did I question your assertion that your issue with the character was based on anything you would have found wrong if the character was male.
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I did point out the fallacy of you saying there was little evidence of sexism being the issue with many and then seemingly using yourself as the example to show that, no, it’s totally not about sexism.
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I simply pointed out, using an analogy that might not trigger you as badly as the original did, that what you started out saying is about as valid as saying that fast food isn’t popular in the US because you personally don’t like it or eat it.
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I implied nothing about you. Although, I might now think you have persecution complex issues. You apparently felt compelled to defend yourself against charges of sexism that didn’t apply to you and then felt that my talking about the sexism of other people and not you was an attack on your character.
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Wanna know something, Jack? I’m not a big fan of The Force Awakens, Rogue One, or The Last Jedi. I find them better than the prequel trilogy films, but if my son and daughter weren’t big fans they wouldn’t be a part of my movie collection. I’ve got nothing against their casting choices, and I could care less if the heroes are male, female, gay, straight, or fill-in-the-blank.
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I can still recognize when fair sized segments of fandom are basing their objections to the films on sexism- especially when the words coming out of their moths or keyboards directly specify diversity, PC casting, and prominent female characters as major flaws with the films.
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Acknowledging that this part of fandom exists as more than a tiny fringe off in the corners of fandom isn’t an attack on you, me, or anyone else who doesn’t like the film for valid reasons, and my saying they exist does not imply anything about your character.
Jerry, I do wonder how big this segment of the fandom really is, though.
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It reminds me of the controversy of the Nike ads featuring Colin Kaepernick. In the beginning, it seemed like there was a major backlash by racists and right-wingers boycotting Nike. Then it was revealed that Nike sales grew, and the protestors were actually very few in number.
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The thing about the alt-right in all their guises (GamerGate, ComicsGate, anti-diversity folks, whatever) is that they’re extremely noisy and extremely skilled at appearing to be bigger than they actually are. Also, that the left LOVES to engage them and cast a spotlight on them, because anyone who sees himself as hero needs to have a villain.
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I’m not sure that they’re a fair-sized portion of the fandom.
Define a fair-sized portion.
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I don’t believe it’s more than 20% of the Star Wars fandom or of fandom in general. While noisy, it’s obvious they haven’t made significant dents based on the box office take and home video sales of the new films. However, they are a significant amount of the voices expressing their dislike of Rey and characters in Star Wars that are not of the white, male, and straight mold.
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““People are sick of diversity.””
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I’m sorry, but I’ve heard that said and seen it written too many times by too many people.
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Most of the people I’ve encountered who talk about the new films and characters like Rey with varying levels of hate in their voice ultimately get to the point where they insert that line into their arguments. Most of the same people I come across or know who are talk about being sick of the “PC bûllšhìŧ” with the new Star Wars films are the same people who whip out “People are sick of diversity!” as their argument for why Marvel is cancelling titles.
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Are they a huge part of fandom? No. Are the a huge part of the group causing the issues being discussed? Yes.
Jerry, I have a feeling that the real toxic fans are closer to 10% than 20%. It’s just that they manage to prod and encourage other conservative fans that are not normally toxic by themselves into venting against “PC”.
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I had a co-worker that was a real neo-Fascist sort of guy. The dude had all those grotesque opinions about blacks, women, gays… The other conservatives in my working place were half-amused, half-repelled by him.
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And he got really angry about Alan Scott being now gay, and Wally West being black and whatever (though he didn’t seem to know who Alan Scott was, it was just “they’re making Green Lantern gay!”).
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The more moderate conservatives would agree about political correctness being out of control and people being sick of diversity and whatever when this guy was around, but they all still watched and loved Wonder Woman, Black Panther, the Luke Cage TV show, Black Lightning, the new Star Wars movies, etc.
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To me, that is why these movies and TV shows are hits. It’s not just “SJWs” watching them. A lot of people parroting screeds against PC culture are just garden variety conservatives, often encouraged by the more toxic individuals.
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(And I’m lucky that this fellow isn’t my co-worker anymore)
Mr. Chandler,
First of all, apologies for my late response.
Second, I apologize if I misread your meaning but when you posted,
““With all due respect Mr. David (and I do believe that is quite a bit), you have little evidence to support your claim that it is a mater of sexism that Rey is not embraced.
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“I for one did not like either “The Last Jedi” or “The Force Awakens.” I found Rey to be a dull an uninteresting character.”
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Yeah… Except that what you’re saying here amounts to little more than saying, “I’m not racist, so there can’t possibly be racist motivations behind people not liking that black character.””
Using my words, and then saying it was the equivalent using a common preface for racist comments, it is easy to interpret as an attack on my character.
It is difficult to view it as much more with a simple reading.
As such, I don’t believe it is my reading-comprehension that needs to be examined, but rather you may need to choose your words better.
Especially how that is how you began the post. It was essentially your lead, or topic sentence for those more familiar with the academic side.
And I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, because it does seem rather specific to just be a poor choice of words… but such things do happen.
The only question I have now is, if it were simply a poor choice of words on your part, then why did you comment on mine.
You said you took what I said at face value. Then why would you add that comment at all?
I had already said that point of view exists in my first post.
What was the point?
Let’s also not forget that Luke had what? A couple hours or maybe a day max with Kenobi, and then maybe a weekend with Yoda, before running off to fight Vader.
Luke is far more ridiculous… especially when compared to the decades of training Anakin, and Kenobi (and all the other Jedi) went through in the prequels.
Rey isn’t any faster than Luke was. And she’s got the added bonus of Kylo’s master linking her brain to Kylo’s so she can basically absorb his training as well.
I agree concerning Rey’s aptitutes and accomplishments. Most of them had logical explanations and didn’t make her a Mary Sue, no more than a lot of movies protags.
However, there was a moment that could be called a “Mary Sue Moment”. It was at the end of the first movie, when her and Chewbacca came back to Leila after Han’s death.
Leila basically ignored Chewie, her old friend, the only person in the universe who loved Han as much as she did, and got straight to Rey. That moment shouldn’t have revolved around Rey and her feelings. It should have been about Leila, Chewbcacca and their grief.
There were a few character missteps in Last Jedi that wrankled a little. I could completely get behind the idea of Luke with depression and possibly a bit of PTSD following his trainees being slaughtered by his own nephew after he almost murdered him himself in a moment of weakness.
It’s that “moment of weakness” that gives me a little trouble, but nothing too big that can’t be explained away as a character moment for someone we’ve not seen for 30 years.
It’s entirely possible that Kylo was lying when he persuaded Rey that her parents were nobodies. Since he’s a much more skilled Force user than she is, who’s to say he didn’t give her a nudge to try to make her lose hope?
The thing that did stick in my proverbial craw (but only in hindsight) was Finn trying to run away. This kid broke his First Order Stormtrooper programming and faced down Kylo Renn with a borrowed lightsabre trying to defend his new friends. That doesn’t fit with someone who tries to make a run for it as soon as the going gets tough.
In summary, it had it’s problems, but it was a pretty decent film. It won’t take too much jiggling by JJ Abrams if he wants to walk anything back (including Luke’s apparent death – as Rian Johnson himself apparently mentioned: there was no “clunk” of Luke’s cybernetic hand hitting the ground – so… Jedi teleportation as a side effect of the distance casting?).
I would love to see Chewie get more to do, especially if Lando’s going to be making an appearance.
The moment of weakness is, to me, perfectly consistent with what we’ve seen of Luke on screen. He’s got a well-established history of running on impulse. For the most part, it’s served him well. In the case shown in TLJ, he resisted that impulse…and it led to the deaths of his students, and Ben’s transformation into Kylo Ren. Makes for some decent food for thought…would killing an unarmed, sleeping teenager have been better or worse than how events unfolded?
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As to Finn running away, remember, he was doing that to protect/defend Rey, not just running away when the going got tough. Of all of his new friends and allies, he had the strongest bond with her, and from his perspective, keeping her from returning to what appeared to be certain death was preferable.
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—Daryl
I agree that we’re missing a good chunk of backstory in a lot of this, but Luke going from a guy who was willing to walk into the middle of Imperial power to fight the emperor just to redeem his father, who was personally responsible for the death of thousands at least, to a guy tempted to kill his own nephew in his sleep because he was afraid of him? That’s something that you really need to play fair with your audience and give a convincing reason for; we shouldn’t be left to speculate on our own like this. At least in The Force Awakens, there was enough background info given as to what happened between Han and Leia to make them act the way they did throughout the movie. With Luke, it’s like nothing happened until one day his “Jedi sense” tingled about his nephew and it somehow made him do a complete flip. What has he gone through and what did he sense that was SO bad that he gave up all his beliefs in redemption? Convincing motivation was a bit lacking in this.
Blindpew,
I agree with you completely. We shouldn’t have to try to figure out what happened to Luke or to try and guess motivation. It should have been given to us… or at least let us know that something had happened and show it to us later. The Last Jedi was bad storytelling and a bad movie.
I didn’t like The Last Jedi much, and Luke has usually been my favorite character, but I can sort of buy into his moment of weakness. If my father had helped space Hitler/Salinas into power, making him responsible for the deaths of billions, if I’dleen the horrific effects of the war first hand, and still had the memory of having to blow up a station to kill thousands, perhaps millions, if I had powerful visions of my nephew slaughtering innocents, and helping a new emperor into power, starting the slaughter and enslavement of billions again, I’d at least be tempted for a moment to prevent it all by killing him.
And that should have read “Space Hitler/Stalin” and “If I’d seen…” Darn autocorrect.
Until someone competent confirms Rey’s parentage, someone other than her own inner fears or the bad guy — because how would he know, plus he’s only going to tell her what is going to get her to join his side, aka lies — I’m going to hold onto the idea that her parents are Someone Important, or at least Someone Of Value.
Hollywood and people in general love family sagas and big drama and secrets revealed — Star Wars through and through — and “she’s a nobody” doesn’t play well to any of that.
Go ahead. Fans clung to the notion that Vader was lying about being Luke’s father for years after Empire even though it was obvious to me he wasn’t. It is very atypical to make a major revelation in one film only to completely contradict it in a sequel.
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PAD
PAD,
Have you seen Kevin Smith’s theory/idea regarding Rey’s parentage?
It’s intriguing and would be fantastic if true.
I’m not PAD, but…
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…like everything else that stumbles out of Smith’s brain, I don’t like it.
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I think it would subvert the wonderful idea put forth in TLJ that she doesn’t have to be Someone Special to be someone special and have an important place in the story. With Lucasfilm stating outright that Episode IX will close out the Skywalker family saga, I think that making her the daughter of that character, so closely tied to the Skywalkers (as a spiritual younger sibling/child to one generation) would undermine that break.
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—Daryl
Before TESB came out, I, with the logic of Dr. Watson, thought, Who is more likely to lie to you? Obi-wan Kenobi or Darth Vader? Vader, obviously. Then we have the mention early on about the Clone Wars.
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Luke could feel through the Force that Vader was his father. If Vader was lying, how could that be true?
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Simple: Vader was Luke’s father’s clone. Someone genetically identical would “taste” the same when sensed through the Force.
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I didn’t cling to it, as as Empire made it clear I was wrong.
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Moral of this story? If people want to cling to their certain points of view they can, as parallel universes. They still have to acknowledge that the canonical viewpoint / “mainstream” universe takes precedence for fans overall, and not try to stubbornly argue it can’t be real in the same manner as Flat-Earthers, melanin-bigots, and Creationists, even if they maintain their own alternatives make more sense to them.
My interpretation of why Ray is so powerful comes from Snoke’s dialogue in The Last Jedi. He said he thought as Kylo growth stronger in the dark side of the force someone would rise up and become as powerful in the light side of the force. Snoke though it was going to be Luke but it turns out it was Ray. So I think this happens probably every few generations and there is always one extra powerful individual on each side. How does this fit with Anakin being the chosen one? Anakin was the first and only person to be the super force user for both the dark and light side. That is why he was supposed to bring balance. I also think the theme of this trilogy is just passing the torch from one generation to the next and how the new generation outgrows the previous one. Luke passed the torch to Ray, Leia to Poe, Han to Fin and because both Vader and the Palpatine were death they came up with Snoke just so he could die and pass the torch to Kylo. My guess is that Hux will kill Kylo on episode 9.
I think the main problem with the new Star Wars films is that I’m not 12 any more.
You know what? I just don’t get why people can’t get over it and move on.
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40+ years of entertainment. Somewhere in there is everyone’s personal Star Wars golden age. If you feel like what has become a generational saga in storytelling as well as reality is no longer speaking to you or your generation or what you want…
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Move on. It’s not yours anymore. Enjoy what you had, but let everyone else enjoy this generation of the stories without you spitting venom at the stories or the fans of those stories.
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There are other things out there you can find and enjoy. More fun in that then winging on about something you no longer feel a strong connection to when it comes to newer works.
Jerry
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The late, great Roger Zelazny said it best when he spoke about Hollywood supposedly ruining his books with a crappy adaptation: “My books are still there on the shelves, they haven’t changed at all” or something like that.
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The same can be said of reboots and sequels that you personally don’t enjoy. You can always re-watch the old stuff, or discover movies you haven’t seen, new or old.
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However, for many people fandom isn’t just about watching movies, it’s more like a club, and I guess it’s painful to them to suddenly realize that there is a lot of new people in the club, and they have a different perspective on that love that supposedly you all share.
FWIW, I wasn’t surprised That a Jedi could lift anything with the Force in Empire, as it was a logical extension from Vader’s force-choking in New Hope. As soon as Luke centered himself as he hung there upside down, I knew what was going to happen, at first viewing in 1980. Yoda’s later recovery of the X-Wing was a little more of a surprise because of the amount of mass involved, but it still was a matter of degree, not kind, so not as surprising as would first seem.
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(Yes, I am old enough to have seen both films first-run in 1977 and 1980. I can wave my cane at you if you want.)
As for Luke’s depression in Last Jedi, Mark Hamill is too much a professional to fight a pout over his lines or not take direction, but he’s written elsewhere that what was shown was not the Luke Skywalker in whose skin he’s been living for forty years and he objected to that depiction of Luke’s character.
I think much of the “Mary Sue” argument comes not only from Rey’s improbable achievements but how quickly she is validated throughout these films, based on very little actual achievement. Han is so impressed with her work on the Falcon that he offers him a place on his crew. Leia readily gives Rey approval and affection (I guess the First Order has never tried infiltrating the Resistance; these guys are very trusting). Yoda shrugs off the destruction of the Jedi texts, claiming that Rey already has all the wisdom they held.
Luke’s hero’s journey, on the other hand, has him getting dumped on every step of the way. Han mocks his belief in the Force. Leia makes fun of his height. Yoda doesn’t think he can be trained. He has advocates in Vader and Obi-Wan, who recognize his potential, but whether he will reach either version of that potential is constantly in doubt.
It’s probably not so much a gender thing as it is generational. In the seventies and eighties, kids had to prove themselves a worthy addition the institutions that trained them. Current students expect institutions to serve and support them on their own terms, including responding to their interests and demands for accommodation.
You can see the same thing in the backstory of Kirk in the Prime Timeline versus the 2009 version. Shatner’s Kirk was an exceptionally driven student (Gary Mitchell called him a “stack of books with legs”) who took every aspect of Starfleet seriously and earned his commission through dedicated service. He took several unglamorous and dangerous assignments that proved he was ready for the big chair, and eventually got it. Kelvin-timeline Kirk chooses Starfleet on a dare, demonstrates contempt for command structure, is recognized as great without doing anything himself (by Pike, Spock Prime, and Nero for various reasons relating to things he had not yet done), and is promoted to Captain for achieving something by blind luck. The next two films do deal with Kirk coming to understand his responsibilities and proving himself worthy, and they have been significantly less well received commercially. Very different stories for very different tastes.
It’s those dámņëd kids these days. How dare they want to succeed without the validation of outside authority?
“Luke’s hero’s journey, on the other hand, has him getting dumped on every step of the way.”
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So the writers should rehash the same story we’ve already seen? We should spend a lot of screen time doing the same thing all over again?
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I might remind you that one of the larger complaints from fandom about The Force Awakens was that many people- and I was one of them -felt like the entire thing came across too much like a remake of New Hope.
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Besides, Luke came across as a naive and occasionally clueless kid during much of New Hope and even during some of Empire Strikes Back. Yeah, the farm boy going “golly gee wiz” and being wide eyed is gonna catch crap from more people- especially hardened smugglers and soldiers -than a character that comes across as a tough, self reliant street kid who has had to fight for what she has in life and comes across as more skeptical, intelligent, capable, and cautious. It’s like complaining that people reacted differently to Huckleberry Finn than they did the Artful Dodger.
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“Han mocks his belief in the Force.
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Yeah. And?
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Han has now not only seen the force in action as far back as the original rebellion, but his son was strong with the force.
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He’s seen more in his life since then, and if something starts happening that’ appears tied to Luke, Ben, and the force, he’s likely not going to be the smug skeptic he once was before having 40 years of this stuff in his life.
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“Leia readily gives Rey approval and affection”
“Leia makes fun of his height.”
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“Gee, aren’t you a little short for an orphaned girl?”
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Huh… Doesn’t quite work all that well…
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She made fun of his height because he walked in wearing Storm Trooper armor. Either (A) the Empire apparently had physical requirements that included height for new recruits that kept weren’t clones who were all the same height or (B) she was a prisoner at the time and was being smart mouthed when she thought he was a Storm Trooper.
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As for the other issues? There was some dumb writing here and there, but she’s 40 years older than she was before. I haven’t had that much time since my late teens and early twenties, but even I’m less flippant and more accepting in some situations than I was back then. It happens with age.
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“Yoda doesn’t think he can be trained. He has advocates in Vader and Obi-Wan, who recognize his potential, but whether he will reach either version of that potential is constantly in doubt.”
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You mean the grumpy Jedi Master who has been hiding out and living in isolation and has long apparently wanted nothing to do with what’s going on in the universe acted like he was reluctant to start training a new Jedi after all those years? I am shocked… SHOCKED!
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Rey is a completely different character than Luke and dealing with mostly completely different characters in a universe that has been living a life that’s completely different than the one the characters from New Hope were living before the start of the film.
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Complaining that they did it wrong because they didn’t have her experience everything that Luke did simply makes no sense.
“Yoda shrugs off the destruction of the Jedi texts, claiming that Rey already has all the wisdom they held.”
Only for it to be revealed at the end of the movie that Yoda meant that in the most LITERAL way possible, since Rey stole the texts and loaded them onto the Falcon before she left. She has the wisdom they contain because she has the Sacred Texts themselves. A beautiful example of a Jedi Truth that leads Luke to the emotional place he needs to be while leaving out details that he might not handle well, like hid mentors have been doing to him since the day he met them.
Its one of my favorite moments in the flick, and it annoys me to see it maligned so.
Jerry, I never said that Rey should have had the exact same experiences as Luke, or that the characters should behave the same way as forty years earlier. What I did point out, however, was that the difference in how she is received could reasonably lead people to think that she meets one of Peter’s stated criteria of being a Mary Sue, being “beloved by the existing cast of characters”. I then suggested that generational differences in how audiences relate to education and authority could account for how Luke and Rey’s stories were approached. Other explanations could have been that the writers chose not to slow down and already long and complicated story with unnecessary conflict, or that planned character developments in Abrams’ original story might make such conflict redundant.
A less interesting but probably more likely explanation is that Rey is intended to be an audience surrogate, and since we love these characters and would want a great experience with them, that’s what she’s receiving. Had writers of this series given us those positive moments and also provided Rey with credible challenges to proving herself, it is likely that she would have been more respected.
My theory is a little different (and involves the Prequels! Run!)
The key phrase from the prequels for this is ‘Balance to the Force’.
At the time of the prequels the Jedi were ascendant, there were many of them and many fairly powerful ones, making up what we shall call a large Light Side Force. Meanwhile there is the emperor and Maul and that’s about it on the Negative Side. Anakin is projected to bring balance and he does, by quickly becoming a very very powerful Dark Side agent.
Now cut to the original trilogy. At this point Vader has wiped out most of the Jedi leaving only a few, but its still pretty much balanced as there is still only him and Palpatine balanced with Obi-Wan and Yoda. But Yoda is fading and Obi-Wan becomes a force ghost. As these things happen, Luke Powers up….
Now the new trilogy. Snoke and Ren are obviously out there, and its not beyond belief that Snoke is training others (which I hope they explore in IX), but the Jedi, other than Skywalkers (we shall assume Leia to be low level force power) are gone and it has not been that long since the padawans were killed by Ren. So now you have a deep ascending imbalance to the Dark Side so here comes Rey (and maybe Finn) powering up quickly as the system tries to balance itself again. Eventually the Jedi or some other light side faction will be ascendant, grow, and then the dark side will power up accordingly.
The Force can be a cruel master.
There’s also a key difference, story wise: Rey grew up in a world where Luke Skywalker and his Jedi feats were the stuff of legend. Luke grew up on a world that the Jedi had rarely visited, after they were wiped out, raised by adoptive parents who would hide the truth of his heritage from him.
And also, its not like Rey’s progress in those first two films was not that much faster than Luke’s – he didn’t exactly spend years learning at the feet of Obi-Wan.