Originally published October 3, 1997, in Comics Buyer’s Guide #1246
My my my, has John Byrne gotten himself in dutch with the fans.
In recent computer postings, John has announced his plans for using the Demon Etrigan, and these plans entail ignoring or undoing much of what such top-flight writers as Alan Moore and Garth Ennis did in developing the character. Byrne’s intentions are to rewind the Demon back to his original incarnation as first developed by Jack Kirby. This, of course, is entirely his right. He’s also made it clear that no one is allowed to make use of the Demon while he is the caretaker of the character.
And oooohh, is there yelling. And oooohh, is there screaming. John Byrne is dissing Garth Ennis. John Byrne is Evil. How dare John Byrne get to have total control of a character and no other writers can use him?
I dunno. Seems pretty much like Standard Operating Procedure in the world of comics to me. Granted, John’s been fairly blunt in stating that he didn’t like Garth’s take on the character, but, y’know… so what? Blunt is Byrne’s style, and there’s no reason on earth that—if he’s been given hold on the character—he should be obligated to write the character in a manner that he feels uncomfortable with.
Furthermore, I can’t help but think of all the times that fans have come to me, after reading a guest appearance of the Hulk in some other title, and complained, “Why do you let these things happen?” Well, it’s not up to me. In John’s case, it is up to him…and the fans condemn him.
Part of the problem, I think, stems from the inability by some fans to distinguish between criticism of the work versus criticism of the person. That’s one of the first things one has to do when embarking on a career in writing: You have to be able to disassociate yourself from the work. Too many young writers take critiques of the work as a critique of they, themselves, as people.
I learned early on that you cannot, must not, take it personally. That way lies madness. You also have to remember that one person’s opinion is no more and no less than that. One person. I’ll never forget when no less an authority than Del Rey Paperbacks editor Judy Lynn Del Rey rejected a book proposal of mine—consisting of the first hundred pages and an outline for the rest of the work—with the following tender words: “I could barely wretch my way through the sample chapters. I couldn’t imagine vomiting through the entire book.” If I’d taken that personally, I’d probably have blown my brains out. Instead I just read the rejection notice, said, “Awww, that’s sweet,” and submitted the book elsewhere. And the book, entitled Knight Life, was published by Ace books and is now a somewhat sought-after little item.
So John doesn’t like Garth’s take on the Demon. So what? Just one guy’s opinion. Ah, say the fans, but now Garth can’t write more “Demon” stories. Oh, the tragedy! Garth Ennis, banished from the Demon because of high-profile creator John Byrne! Nevermore will Garth write the Demon! And Mark Waid and Ron Garney, banished from Captain America because of high-profile creator Rob Liefeld! Nevermore will Mark and Waid… oh. Wait a minute.
I suppose I just can’t get as worked up about it as the fans since I’ve been down this road myself.
Some fans hold up my tenure on the Hulk, and my development of the character over the years, as the “correct” and “respectful” way to handle the character. Well, they sure weren’t singing that tune ten years ago. When I started on the Hulk, what few letters of comment we received were almost uniformly negative. People stating that the grey Hulk should have been immediately removed and that the Hulk must, must, must be restored to his status as monosyllabic and of limited intelligence. That to stick with the grey, crafty Hulk was to ignore the previous twenty+ years of stories or—even worse—to be dissing them by saying that that character was not one I was interested in writing.
Who was I, some guy with two first names, coming onto a book and refusing to write the Hulk the way he was supposed to be written? I was ignoring the fans! I was spitting on what they desired to see! Get me off the book immediately and replace me with someone who will write the one, true Hulk! (Some people are still saying that.) I was doing a (gasp!) disservice to the fans, who are always right and know how a character should be treated. Doesn’t matter how many times the fans are proven wrong in hindsight; the shouting the very next time the issue comes up is never any less strident.
Let us suppose (as one fan suggested) that John Byrne were to return to the Hulk. Let’s say he felt that not a single worthwhile story has been done in the title since he left over a decade ago, and decided to establish that my entire run was a dream. That the Hulk had never gone through any of the development that I’d put him. Some fans would proclaim, loud and long, that such an action would be an insult to me. That, as one fan calling himself “Scavenger” put it, “BOOM, 10 years work has just been labeled worthless.”
Yeah… but what if you’re a diehard “dumb Green Hulk” fan (heck, what if you’re Erik Larsen?) who will finally rejoice, shout “The dark years of David are over!” and come flocking back to the book, just as the “dumb Green Hulk” fans abandoned the title years ago. To them, the last ten years ARE worthless. Fans who are arguing over this things as if they’re a matter of principle are ignoring the fact that there’s no principle at stake: It’s just a defending of personal preference. It would mean that the fans of the current incarnation would be deeming their “vision” of the Hulk as being more worthy and inherently better, because it’s the Hulk they want to read. What fans of my work would see as a disservice by Byrne-the-Encroacher would be seen by others as a “return to greatness.”
And do my ten years of stories become “worthless?” I’d like to think not. The fans will always be able to go back and read the stories I wrote and enjoy them, taking them as a work unto themselves. I can still read the Silver Age Green Lantern stories or GL/GA and enjoy them, despite the character’s eventual insanity. I can still read the Silver Age Flash even though Barry Allen died an awful death. The legacy of the enjoyment of the stories remains, no matter what.
The problem is that writing for a high-profile, company owned character is a trade-off. The first and biggest challenge which a writer faces is getting an audience to emotionally invest in the stories he wants to tell. When one takes on an existing character for a main-line publisher, one is inheriting a pre-existing audience. Whether the readers stay or go hinges on the writer’s talent, but there’s already some emotional investment based on the efforts of predecessors. That’s the upside. The downside is that different writers bring to the series different visions. As a writer, you have to live with that. It wouldn’t hurt if fans realized and understood that no one ever figured that fans of comics would be long-term. Comics were considered entertainment for young boys who would eventually grow out of funny books and move on to girls. There was no thought given to continuity which contradicted itself ten, twenty years later, or varying visions of the characters being at odds with each other. Reader turnover was (and, frankly, remains) the norm. No one expected to have the same readers on a title two decades later. It would help some fans, I think, if they realized the realities of long-term characterization and varying viewpoints as new writers take over a title. Like or dislike what the new creators do with a character as you see fit. But condemning their right to do so is wrong-headed.
But isn’t the writer being an ingrate? Doesn’t he owe his career, his popularity, his very livelihood to the fans?
Well… no. No, what a writer owes the fans is a story well-told to the best of his or her abilities. Period. End of obligation. It’s absurd to imply that a writer’s job is to serve the whims and dictates of the fans, because (a) that’s a gutless way to be a writer and (b) the fans don’t operate with one uniform gestalt mind, so it’s a hopeless task. It’s the squeamishness and lack of convictions born of Hollywood movie testing. Hey, audience, should we have a happy ending or a sad ending? Gee, tough call. Happy ending!
A writer does not owe his career to the fans. He owes it to luck, determination, skill, professionalism, and a singular creative vision for which some fans would pillory him. The fans are a pleasant by-product of a career. They’re great to meet, their input is always welcome. But they’re not the be-all, end-all of the writer’s career, no matter how much some would believe it to be so and have a sense of moral outrage when their personal requirements are not met.
If a writer wants to express his gratitude to the fans, and wants to do his best work, then sometimes the dictates of producing what he feels will be his best work will require him to put the fans’ noses out of joint. If John Byrne wants to write the Demon, and feels that the way he can do his best work on the character is to ignore what Garth Ennis has done, then he is doing everything the fans would ask of any writer… except they would censure him for it.
You can’t always give the fans what they want because, when you get right down to it, fans ultimately want the characters whom they love to be able to live happily ever after. Unless you’re writing a limited series or novel, that’s impossible. Then again, maybe that’s the single most realistic thing about comics. In real life, there is no such thing as “happily ever after.” Not really. It’s just that the writer concludes his narrative on a high note. In the story of Princess Di, she survives her difficulties, finds a new love, and lives happily ever after…as long as you end the story an hour before the traffic accident.
Every true story has an unhappy ending. Every single one.
In comic books, which are merely a distorted reflection of reality, there are no endings. Death is transitory, characters are handed off, and the only thing that doesn’t change is that things change.
What fans react to with outrage, I just see and shrug and say, “Same old, same old.”
You just can’t get upset about this stuff. You can’t.
And by the way… did you see how they completely screwed up Spider-Man 2099 after I left!?!
Geez!!!!
(Peter David, writer of stuff, can be written to at Second Age, Inc., PO Box 239, Bayport, NY 11705.)
• 
*Fiendish chuckle* (What is that supposed to mean ? I’m not saying.)
“All Bette’s stories have happy endings. That’s because she knows where to stop.
“She’s realised the real problem with stories — if you keep them going long enough, they always end in death.”
Even Neil Gaiman was wrong. Go on long enough, and all stories end the same way: “And eventually, surrounded by utter darkness, the final proton decayed in a small burst of photons, ending the long slow asymptotic march to absolute zero and maximum entropy. And the Universe went out. The End.”
In my head, after reading any given book, I always add that little quote at the end. Adds a nice touch of despair to even the cheeriest novels. Try it, it’s fun!
“[Sam] drew a deep breath. ‘Well, I’m back,’ he said.”
“He loved Big Brother.”
“…a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known.”
“The scar had not pained Harry for nineteen years. All was well.”
Heh, and 2 years after this, Byrne was involved in rebooting the Hulk back to dumb and green. It didn’t even last a year.
And furthermore, when Peter eventually returned to the title he immediately established that the previous guy’s run was all a dream.
“And furthermore, when Peter eventually returned to the title he immediately established that the previous guy’s run was all a dream”
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No..that was a fake-out
Or did he?
I get very much what you’re saying (said), Peter. When a new writer * takes over a recurring character they may choose go in a notably different direction. But I do have much more respect for writers who, while moving in a different direction, don’t just scrap all that came before.
You want to turn the Hulk back into a big dumb catch phrase machine (“Strongest there is!” “Puny humans!”), then go ahead. But at least provide a transition. Explain how that happens. (You didn’t instantly turn the Hulk crafty and gray, for example.) To just declare it to be so is lazy.
* I was going to say “creative person” rather than just “writer” to be more general, but I don’t think a new artist on a book would be able to make the same kinda of radical changes a writer may make. Imagine if an artist on Superman decided to “take him back to his roots” and start drawing him with his original costume without stylized S, or decided he was more Aryan-type Superman and make him blond.
Honestly, Sean, that’s what I prefer as well. I’m a bigger fan of moving the chess pieces in an unexpected maneuver than I am just sweeping all the pieces off the board.
PAD
I have to say that i have never liked Etrigan in any form.
Of course, aside from Darkseid himself, that pretty much applies to EVERYTHING that Kirby did for DC.
Can’t agree (though it’s just a disagreement over a matter of taste).
After all, I was a big fan of the original Challenger’s of the Unknown.
“Every true story has an unhappy ending. Every single one.”
Well, that entirely depends on one’s views of death and the afterlife. As someone who works in an assisted living community, I’ve known some elderly people for whom death was considered a positive. They were old and tired and couldn’t function the way they once did and were ready to meet their maker.
However, as a storyteller and one prone to telling fairy tales no less, I resist the idea that “there are no happy endings”. Saying that so simply implies that the world is just a hard, cruel place and that any happiness is momentary and any triumph is just waiting to be knocked down. My way of thinking has always been “There are no happy endings because there really are no endings”. Every day is a new page in the story. And even when we die, is that really the end of the story? We don’t know. Even here on Earth, maybe the story just becomes someone else’s story. After all, we may pass but the people whose lives we encounter and influence for better or worse often go on. That’s why we should all try our best to do right by people: to have a positive influence on the story.
I understand if some see me as too positive.
I always liked the line from the ending of fairy tale story THE 10TH KINGDOM: “And if they have not died than they are alive still.” I’m fine believing in the happily ever after (or HEA, as it’s often called in romance novels) than dwelling on the mortality of the characters (or, for immortals, the entropy of the universe).
Saying that so simply implies that the world is just a hard, cruel place and that any happiness is momentary and any triumph is just waiting to be knocked down.
Well…yeah.
I understand if some see me as too positive.
No, not too positive, although I kinda wanna slap ya around a little now…
PAD
Hello Peter:
I have been a fan since The Death of Jean DeWolff was first published. I was 15 and it remains to this day one of my favourite stories, if only for the treasured memory of how much I loved it then (I haven’t read it in many years actually). I’ve never stopped reading comics and have enjoyed much of your work, but that one in particular is a big standout for me.
Similarly, I was a huge John Byrne fan, but – sadly – his public statements over the years have tarnished similarly treasured memories of, say, his FF run. I’ve not tried anything of his in years, probably as a direct result.
Anyway, I’ve never written you before – I think I have written two previous “fan” letters in my lifetime – but wanted to say that I thought this article was generous and decent and, may I say, even humble. I agree with everything you say generally in this article and, as to Mr. Byrne in particular, your comments have actually polished up some of those old memories with respect to his work.
Just so you don’t think I’m a sycophant, I don’t agree with everything you write on this blog, and have once or twice before thought you unnecessarily churlish: not over the line by any means, just a little meaner than I thought you had to be. But I am a fan and continue to read and enjoy your work and this blog regularly.
This article struck a chord for some reason and thought I’d let you know that.
(And yes I know this is from 1997; it is new to me). Thanks very much for this and all your stories. Thanks especially for The Death of Jean De Wolff.
Kind regards,
Mark S
Edmonton AB Canada
Thanks for the kind words. Welcome to the board.
PAD
There should be only one dumb green monster at Marvel and that’s Man-thing, by gumm!
Except that’s not even the case any more, apparently (as shown in, I believe, DARK AVENGERS).
But assuming there was more than one… would it be “Man-things” or “Men-thing”?
Men-Thing. Like attorneys general.
PAD
Does this mean that we might look forward to some day reading about some Starfleet officer coming out of a sonic shower and commenting about this weird dream he or she had had about [a certain event in BEFORE DISHONOR]?
Hey, I LIKED that concrete windsock.
*Grump*
Very enjoyable read. I’m glad to hear a notable writer admit that pleasing the fans can’t be the primary mission of the storyteller (in the sense of doing whatever they want). It follows the “customer is always right” philosophy that, while a good ethic to embrace, we all know isn’t really true.
It always bugged me in letters pages or Bullpen Bulletins when Jim Shooter or another editor would go on at length about how the fans were their “bosses” and ultimately called the shots. It made it look like being a creative person at Marvel could be a real drag (especially when you read those letters pages to see what the bosses were demanding).
Except that in the end, fans are in effect the bosses…If they had dropped in droves and not been replaced during PAD’s initial arc, or during Joe Fixit, etc. then PAD in all likelihood would have been replaced on the book far sooner…
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That said, writers should not be forced to give gfans what they want…The ending of “Pretty in Pink” is a perfect example…In the book, Molly Ringwald winds up with Duckie and that’s the way it was filmed…Teen girls wanted to her to wind up with Andy McCarthy and it was re-filmed…. and still seems out of place to what the film had been leading up to, after all this time
Fortunately, they got it right with Some Kind of Wonderful, only with the genders reversed.
Even though I still love the soundtrack and enjoy the movie, to me this is why the movie is nowhere near as beloved as “The Breakfast Club”…basically the message was to both teen girls and boys….the “happy ending” is when you wind up with the guy with the money and who is cute even though he treats you like šhìŧ..and forget about the guy who treated you right always.
TV Tropes has a page on the differing approaches to analyze fiction: Watsonian vs. Doylist. Basically, the first is in-universe, the later out-universe.
The most passionate and “irrational” fans that PAD is complaning of are radical Watsonians. They treat comics as other-dimensional reports of what is “truly” happening in the Marvel Universe.
Unhappy endings, radical departures, continuity mistakes, are all very offensive to this kind of fan. The characters are like his old friends, and if you tell them Spider-Man’s marriage is now invalid and never happened, they’d react the same way as if you tell them their parents are divorcing and they never actually loved each other.
You can never argue with them using Doylist arguments, such as the ones PAD defends here. It’s pointless.
Many seem to prefer Joss Whedon’s model for pleasing fans: get them emotionally invested, then rip their hearts out.
Another instance of why “giving the fans what they want” is not always wise: STAR TREK.
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Two of the major events that helped “Star Trek” evolve – that were key in it actually – from failed ’60s cult series to the decades-long phenomenon that it currently is are:
1.) The Death of Spock. If you asked fans if they wanted to see Spock die in “Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan” they almost assuredly would have said no. But that was the movie’s emotional payoff and helped “Khan” continue the series and the franchise as a whole.
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2.) “ST:The Next Generation” : Many people forget, but many fans of ST;TOS HATED the idea of a new cast/show..they still wanted Kirk and Spock. Brent Spiner is on record as saying he did not think they would last more than one season because of all the backlash..partially because…
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3.) A KLINGON ON THE “ENTERPRISE”? Most fans thought Klingons should always be the enemy…and
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4.) A Shakespearean actor with French sounding name who talked like a professor? Again, people forget there were NO “Kirk or Picard” comparisons in the early years…They did not feel Picard merely paled in comparison but was an insult and hated him.
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These are all things which have now enriched and strengthened one of the most popular, extensive and powerful franchises..and would likely never have happened if those in charge of it simply gave fans what they thought they wanted.
I always find it funny when you mention the letters didn’t care for your version of The Hulk…the book was doing so poorly (IIRC) that when you took over, you promised in TBG to write back to EVERYONE who wrote in on your first few issues.
And I got a letter back pretty promptly.
I remember writing that the old “Hulk smash” was boring and I’d dropped the book when it went from the “Intelligent Hulk” story to him being a brainless brute, and I wanted to see something new with the character.
I also asked if Todd McFarlane would be going back to those wonderful page layouts he used in Infinity Inc….
So, I was batting about 50%.