The Less-than-Great Debate

Originally published December 10, 1993, in Comics Buyer’s Guide #1047

VIC CHALKER: Hello, and welcome to Larry King Live. Larry’s on vacation this week. This is your substitute host, Vic Chalker, and I am tremendously excited to be host of a debate that everyone is going to be talking about for quite some time to come.

VIC: To my right, one of the richest and most influential men in America. Although the general consensus is that Vice President Al Gore defeated him handily in a previous debate, the continued struggle that NAFTA presented to the Clinton Administration shows the power that he wields: H. Ross Perot.

ROSS: Can I speak now?

VIC: Well, I’m just introducing the—

ROSS: ‘Cause they didn’t let me speak the last time. They kept interrupting me. I can’t stand interruptions.

VIC: That’s understand—

ROSS: Rude. That’s what it is. Purely rude.

VIC: Okay, I just need to intro—

ROSS: Country’s been going straight down hill. That’s what happens with Clinton and his people running things. Running them into the ground. No one’s being taught manners anymore. That giant sucking sound you hear is manners being sucked right away.

VIC: And to my left, one of the top artist/writers working in the comic book industry today. His comic book series Progeny is the industry’s best-selling title, and he is one of the co-founders of the Effigy Comics line. He’s lean, he’s mean, he’s Mr. “Thin” Lee DeSkyzed. Lee, it’s good to have you on the show.

LEE: Thanks, Vic, and I first want to say before… I think you and everyone should know that, above and beyond anything… the thing that’s most important is that I didn’t do this show for the money.

VIC: Uh, nobody said you did, Lee.

LEE: Because there’s this impression out there that “Thin” Lee DeSkyzed does things just for the money, and I don’t know where that stuff comes from, but it’s a lie.

ROSS: Can I speak now?

LEE: That’s fine, because I’m here to talk, and answer your questions.

VIC: OK. OK, that’s good. Because this is supposed to be a free-wheeling discussion and… and… (confused pause) OK, wait. I don’t understand this. Will someone tell me what the hëll we’re supposed to be doing here? I mean, we got a millionaire and a comic book artist…

LEE: I’m a millionaire.

VIC: You are? Oh. Well, maybe that’s the subj—

LEE: But I didn’t become a millionaire just for the money. There were… you see, people get confused about what I say.

ROSS: I find that hard to believe. You talk just like George Bush.

LEE: No, it’s true. Because they take it too seriously. A lot of the interviews I’ve given—those weren’t really me. Those things I said? They didn’t… that wasn’t the real “Thin” Lee DeSkyzed. Those were a ghost “Thin” Lee DeSkyzed. A fake. Those things the ghost Lee said don’t count. Just what I say now counts.

VIC: You’re kidding.

LEE: No, really.

ROSS: I’m serious too. I’m always serious. Because I care about the American people, and that’s a serious business. They’re my business. I’m their business. It’s all business, like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing. Everything the traffic will allow. Now I’m glad that Lee brought up this “ghost” thing.

LEE: Thank you.

ROSS: Can I speak? Speak without interruption, please.

LEE: Okay.

(Long pause.)

ROSS: Are you done?

VIC: I think, yes, he’s d—

ROSS: Are you interrupting me now?

VIC: No, I—

ROSS: Can I speak?

VIC: (to Lee) Don’t make any sudden noise.

(Long pause.)

ROSS: Work on it.

LEE: Work on what?

ROSS: There you go interrupting me—

VIC: (desperately) Let’s take a call and see if we can get this focused.

Yes, you’re on.

CALLER: This is both to Mr. Perot and Mr. DeSkyzed: Could you give me your opinions on symbolism in European literature?

VIC: (incredulous) Uh, gentlemen?

LEE: I’m glad you asked that question. I’m glad it was brought up because it’s important to Europeans, and literature, and symbols, which by the way, in school, I played cymbals, so I’m a strong believer in them.

Let me first say that what I’m saying about European literature, that’s just my opinion. A lot of people think I’m speaking for Effigy Comics. Just because I sit on a panel about Effigy Comics and talk about them doesn’t mean that I’m talking for them, see. It’s just, you know, it is.

And I’m just trying to be a good father. A good husband. A good parent. And I like kids. I’m there for them, and there for you. Thank you.

ROSS: Can I speak n—

VIC: YES!

ROSS: All symbolism in European literature boils down to the same thing, and the symbolism is this: How America is being depicted. For example, let’s take one of the most famous examples: “London Bridge is falling down.”

LEE: I know that one.

ROSS: Everyone knows that one, and that’s what’s so insidious. Everyone knows London Bridge is falling down. So what happens? America buys it and moves it lock, stock and barrel to Arizona. That’s announcing to the world market that we’re so stupid, that we’ll buy a bridge that every kindergarten child knows is falling down. Now how is America supposed to be symbolized by that? It’s symbolized by the fact that every single time that poem is mentioned, the world market is laughing at us.

They’re laughing at us for that, and then we give them NAFTA to laugh at some more. Now if you’ll look at this chart (holds up a pie chart) you’ll see that, by my calculations: 69% of the world market is laughing at us; 23% is politely chuckling; 10% is embarrassed to look in our direction; and the remaining 18% are trying not to laugh at us because they’re hoping to get American jobs. That 18% alone is more than 30 billion people. And, might I point out, that Arizona is, alphabetically, directly ahead of Arkansas, and we all know who came from there.

VIC: I think that adds up to more than 100%.

ROSS: Numbers don’t lie, sonny. The president and his folks may lie about numbers, but the numbers themselves don’t lie.

VIC: Let’s, uh, let’s have another question.

CALLER: Why do you think that in some countries, like Japan, comics are considered valid adult entertainment, but in the United States they’re still looked on largely as children’s entertainment?

VIC: Well, at least that’s mildly relevant to one of our—

ROSS: I’d like to answer that.

VIC: You would? Uh, OK.

ROSS: If I can speak without being interrup—

VIC: Talk, already!

ROSS: I think the caller is simply wrong. That’s all. Wrong. Misinformed. So misinformed, he could be working for the current administration. If he weren’t wrongheaded, he wouldn’t have a head at all. In fact, maybe he doesn’t.

VIC: So you think comics are for all age groups?

ROSS: Absolutely. For example, that Robin Williams. Funny guy. Ðámņ near laughed my ášš off with him in that Aladdin movie. Great comic.

VIC: Uh, Ross…

ROSS: Another great comic—Bill Clinton. The man thinks he’s got a prayer of being a two-term president. That’s the funniest thing I ever—

VIC: Mr. Perot, I think that—

ROSS: You interrupting me again? I thought we been through—

LEE: I liked Aladdin. The genie sounded like the guy from Mork and Mindy.

VIC: I think the caller meant “comic books.” Not “comics” as in comedians. Comic books.

ROSS: That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard. And having been in three presidential debates, that’s a lot of dumb things to absorb. That cat just don’t meow.

Comic books? You sure?

VIC: Reasonably, yes. Lee, you want to address any of this?

LEE: Yes, I do, Rick, because that’s why I’m here. When I’m trying to do comics, I’m doing them for the kid inside me. For the kid in all of us. And believe me when I say this: I’m not doing them for the money. That’s nonsense. They—that is, the comics public—and, you know, the other guys—that is, at this point in time, you know, that’s what it’s about. That, and nothing else.

And people lie. That’s what really gets to me. They lie about the kind of comics we produce, and why we produce them, like we don’t have a right to produce comics for family men, which I am, by the way. Here’s a picture of my son. Isn’t he great?

VIC: I could be wrong, but this looks like a picture of Jose Canseco.

LEE: Yeah, you’re right. My mistake. But he’s a hëll of a player, isn’t he? I think the focus on how much money he was getting kind of ruined him, though. That’s why it’s so bad, you see. Bad. Very bad. Almost as bad as the lying.

I’m telling you right now: We’re just out there trying to make the whole industry better for everyone. And I know that we’re succeeding. I’m liberating the market place, and making it better for everyone working in it. You know how I know? Because people hate me. That’s how I know.

VIC: I don’t follow.

LEE: It’s real simple. You look at, like, Abraham Lincoln. A lot of people hated him, even though he was freeing slaves. So it’s simple: The guy who freed slaves was hated. I am hated. Therefore, I am freeing slaves. I don’t see why people should have trouble following that. It’s perfectly simple to me.

I’m working to—those are nice shoes, by the way—I’m working to make things better, and I’m not doing it just for the money, and I don’t see why people don’t believe me when I say that. They call me a liar. Can you believe that? It makes me angry when people say I’m not a man of my word.

VIC: You know, Lee, I hate to say it, but that’s a little contradictory. A while ago, you essentially said that you “make up” personas when you do interviews. That, to all intents and purposes, the things you said in those interviews “don’t count” because they reflected the opinions of a “ghost” Lee. But now you say people should always believe your word. You’re sending out mixed signals here.

LEE: Vicky, Vicky, I can’t believe you fell for that.

When I said that earlier thing, that wasn’t the real me talking. That was a ghost Lee. I didn’t really mean it when I said I didn’t mean what I said. You know what I’m saying?

ROSS: As it so happens, I have a diagram here, charting just how many different Lees we hear from on an annual basis. By my calculations: 42% of the time, we’re hearing from a ghost Lee; 19% it’s a Zombie Lee; 18% it’s a Bizarro Lee; 23% it’s a Phantom Zone Lee, and—

VIC: OK, thank you all for coming.

ROSS: Can I speak without interruption just once?

VIC: No. We’re out of time.

ROSS: What we’re doing is running out of time. The clock’s ticking on the Clinton Administration, and for anyone who agrees with me, I’d like you to call—

VIC: Tune in next week when our guests will be Peter David and Hillary Clinton discussing—Oh, crud. I knew it. I knew we got the guests mixed up.

LEE: That’s a nice watch.

VIC: Thank you. It’s Swiss.

LEE: Then how come it doesn’t have holes, like the cheese?

(Peter David, writer of stuff, admits that he was good and sick of the subject of debates—but couldn’t resist the foregoing after reading all the build-up and subsequent spin on the Gore/Perot debate—because somehow it all seemed so familiar somehow. Next: Joey Buttafuoco debates Barney the Dinosaur.)