Rich Johnston makes observations at Bleeding Cool about my having a bit of fun regarding Shatterstar. I suppose if you accept the subtext Rich suggests, I come across as kind of juvenile. To which I would say, well, yeah, I write comic books for a living and my office is crowded with action figures. I am kind of juvenile. My friends choose to find it charming. At least they say they do. Anyway, check it here.
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Heh, cute. OM’s trolling in the comments, less cute.
“Remember when ‘Gay’ meant happy? I miss that.”
Ulysses, Incredible Hulk #420
Apparently my dictionary is way out of date.
And in which of those panels did you use the word “Fág”, Peter (as OM seems to be saying)? Drugs and age have had their effect on my ability to notice things, but I’ve checked those 2 panels 3 times and didn’t see it.
Didn’t use it anywhere.
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PAD
Yeah, that’s why OM’s comment makes no sense. Actually, no, even if he had used the word “fág,” it would still make no sense.
I notice you’re not denying that you meant exactly what he thinks you meant…
I neither confirm nor deny.
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PAD
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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That’s what you said when we asked if Lee was Supergirl, too.
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I love this quote from Liefeld:
I anxiously look forward to that day and how wonderful it will be, given, given Liefeld’s superlative plotting and scripting skills.
I liked the comment about writing a story all about feet and making Liefeld draw it. Imagine all the Lima bean pac mans everywhere…
He’s kind of doing you a disservice. I mean, “gladiator movies” isn’t just a one liner. There was the mojoworld reference, when Star implied that you can’t be a real actor unless you can disembowel people AND say the lines. Then you did a callback with the match against the Thing. That’s a multi level joke! Hehe
And the funniest joke was when X-Factor #75 said to be continued in X-Factor #200. Well, it was funny to me.
As the Doctor once observed: “Theres no point in being grown up if you can’t act childish sometimes.”
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Theno
Thank you for finally explaining the gladiator joke!
I don’t remember ‘to be continued in X-Factor #200’ being anywhere in X-Factor #75. (Referring to Mike T’s comment above.) I just now flipped through my copy, but I didn’t read it in depth just now. (I just bought it a couple of months ago. See! I do buy your X-Factors eventually. It just takes me a while.)
It was the preview of “The Invisible Woman has Vanished!” it printed the first four pages or so, and said to be continued.
Okay, now I see the source of my confusion.
You’re talking about X-Factor #50. That just came out a few months ago.
X-Factor #75 was published in 1992, the first time Peter David wrote the series. I thought you were saying he introduced some plot point back then with a promise to return to it many, many years down the road. And that by an amazing stroke of luck, he actually got to follow through with it.
That would’ve been so awesome! And it does kind of fit with Mr PAD’s weird sense of humour.
I’m really disappointed now to learn it was a simple misunderstanding. That could’ve been the longest dangling plot-line in history, or at least the longest not written by Claremont.
My bad, sorry about that.
Didn’t it take almost as long For Nightcrawler’s question to Mystique about why she is blue about that long to answer? hehe
Yeah, I saw the “Are you not entertained?!” bit at the end (which bleedingcool did not mention) of 200 kind of an acknowledgement that Shatterstar (who was quite digging Gladiator) *is* actually a badass Gladiator (right after he gave Thing a smackdown). So there’s a bit of a tacit acknowledgement that Liefeld is right on some level. Shatterstar is all at once a gladiator and gay and straight and everything. Actually, I don’t quite know what or who he is cause I never read the character before but he’s entertaining anyway.
“Shatterstar is all at once a gladiator and gay and straight and everything.”
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If he were Greek, would that explain it? 😉
Considering the “not the gay kind” statement, I’m surprised that the word “pederasty” didn’t show up there…
Father, why do these words sound so nasty?
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PAD
You know, my parents had the Hair album and I played it endlessly. I must have been all of 8 or so, singing along as best I could to the song “sodomy” (though my favorite was and still is “frank Mills”) My parents never discouraged me, for the simple reason that they would then have to tell me why.
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Thank God I never sang it in school. Parent/teacher conference for sure.
I remember singing “Mášŧûrbáŧìøņ, can be fuuuuuuuuun…” at the dinner table and getting some very strange looks and corrective action from my parents.
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As for favorites, I’ve got to go with “Where Do I Go?”
Bill–
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They filmed parts of “Hair” in and around NYU when I was attending it. I remember seeing some scruffy guy hanging around and wondering if he was an extra or something. Turned out to be Treat Williams.
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But what I remember most clearly was that they filmed Annie Golden singing “Frank Mills” in front of the Waverly Theater, just like the song lyric. Just her standing there with a guitar performing the song. I stood there for about an hour watching them film. And then they cut it from the final print. I don’t think it’s even been included in the DVD release. Shame; she did a lovely job with it.
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PAD
Oh….really? that’s a shame. Hair really seems like a movie that should get the full blu-ray multidisk treatment with all the deleted scenes etc etc.
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Thanks for the heads up–I’m going to see if I can track that down.
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PAD: “Father, why do these words sound so nasty?”
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Who needs nasty sounding words? I was in elementary school back in the mid to late 70’s. Care to guess how many of us were singing Starland Vocal Band’s “Afternoon Delight” before the teachers suddenly asked us not to sing that song while not explaining why they suddenly didn’t want us singing that song during school hours?
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Gonna find my baby, gonna hold her tight
gonna grab some afternoon delight.
My motto’s always been; when it’s right, it’s right.
Why wait until the middle of a cold dark night.
When everything’s a little clearer in the light of day.
And you know the night is always gonna be there any way.
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:-O
I didn’t know you went to NYU (so did I). That’s cool that Hair was being filmed when you were there. When I was there, they were filming Hackers. Doesn’t seem quite fair.
Thanks for the heads up–I’m going to see if I can track that down.
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I doubt you’ll find any video of it. However the vocal track is on the CD.
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PAD
Being gay (or bi-) doesn’t preclude him being a bad-ášš gladiator and warrior. That seems to be Peter’s point, yes?
I think what’s most telling about all of this is the sort of knee-jerk, 5th grade spastic reaction on Liefeld’s part to the idea. In his mind, apparently, making a character whom he conceived as a Bad Úš ™ sexually involved with men automatically makes said Bad Úš less of a macho ášš-kicker. And that’s plainly not the case.
That’s exactly it. That’s the thing that most torqued me about Rob’s attitude: That he wasn’t gay, but instead a bad-ášš warrior. And I thought that was remarkably insulting to gays who are cops or soldiers (as if “Don’t ask, don’t tell” weren’t insulting enough), the notion that being gay and being a brave, formidable fighter were mutually exclusive.
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PAD
To quote Truman Capote from “In Cold Blood”
“I know queens who could throw the pool table out the window and the piano after it.”
Considering that I just had a homophobe insult me for writing slashfics, I would understand if the “gladiator” reference was indeed meant to get on Liefeld’s goat, which personally I don’t believe it to be so. I have to admit that OM’s comments did annoy me for their lack of sense.
But I do have to agree with you that being gay does not diminish a man’s worth as a warrior or a soldier. For some reason, many homophobes always use the Spartans as examples of bad-ášš macho gladiators/warriors. And yet historians have documented that one of the possible reasons why they’re such fierce fighters is because their “brotherhood” as warriors was strengthened by their bonding to each other as lovers.
Personally, I would like to see that kind of bond develop between Rictor and Shatterstar. Although I do find it amusing, please, please do something about Shatterstar’s flirting with others. I just feel so bad for poor Rictor. Though I do wonder what would have happened if Shatterstar *did* end up kissing Northstar. Would Star still not be his type?
P.S. I LOVED what you did with Longshot and Dazzler. Longshot was such a lovable pervert in that one. XD
“or some reason, many homophobes always use the Spartans as examples of bad-ášš macho gladiators/warriors. And yet historians have documented that one of the possible reasons why they’re such fierce fighters is because their “brotherhood” as warriors was strengthened by their bonding to each other as lovers.”
The Greek city of Thebes had a famous military unit of lovers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes
“Plutarch records that the Sacred Band was made up of male couples, the rationale being that lovers could fight more fiercely and cohesively than strangers with no ardent bonds.”
And the Sacred Band actually defeated the Spartans at the Battles of Tegyra and Leuctra–against numerically superior Spartan forces, I might add. I don’t think we will see that in the sequels to 300 that have been talked about.
I recall when this first blew up here, a commenter made the crack about “does Shatterstar like gladiator movies?” and PAD said “I’m so stealing that line.”
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I’ve been waiting for it ever since, and was delighted when it finally was used.
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Natch, PAD had to take it about seven steps further than the simple “Airplane” reference…
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J.
You got a point? Or just here for your weekly drive by shooting?
Coil, this isn’t a political discussion. I’m applauding PAD here for laying the groundwork months in advance, then paying it off in an even bigger way than I imagined.
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He didn’t just use the “gladiator movies” line, he built a whole scene around the Russell Crowe movie.
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And then he called it back with the “are you not entertained?” line.
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I loved it.
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I don’t agree with PAD’s politics, and I think I’ve made that abundantly clear.
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Apart from that, I have great respect and fondness for the guy. I have his autograph on quite a few items, and have spent about four figures to attend conventions to get them.
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The instant PAD said “I’m SO stealing that line,” I started waiting for it. I knew that the actual line wouldn’t just be a single throwaway line, but a hook for a whole riff.
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And man, did it pay off.
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Very, very well done, PAD. You got me good. I did NOT see the “Are you not entertained?” line coming, and I should have.
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J.
Heh. This is an odd turn of events. This site and Bleedingcool are the two first sites I typically visit over morning coffee. Now to see PAD and Bc intersecting makes me wonder if I am tyhe only one.
Again I took it as Shatterstar was like Captain Jack…not gay. Just likes sex and doesn’t much have a particular attiude.
Also…didn’t him and Longshot come from Mojo world? Which is all about entertainment? Like chracters don’t get outed during sweeps…
I think he’s awesome…as a gay man…I love this storyline so far.
I found this discussion quite amusing. Marvel owns the character, so legally you can change anything about the character that Marvel allows you to – unless Liefeld and Marvel had an agreement that certain traits of the character were not to be changed from the original depiction.
Artistically, I think you have to respect the original vision. But that means you have to use that as your starting point and you need to make any changes convincing to the audience. I’m not familiar with the character of Shatterstar, but I get the idea from the discussion that although Liefeld saw him as straight in his mind when (co)creating him, his sexuality wasn’t overtly established. In that case, the revelation that he’s gay or bi is totally acceptable. However, if his heterosexuality was established,then the burden falls upon you to convincingly explain how he got from there to being gay/bi.
For example, if you were writing Iron Man and decided to suddenly make Tony Stark gay overnight with no explanation, then I would call that piss-poor writing. However, you can change things that you can convincingly explain how the changes come about. I believe that you’re a good enough writer that you could convincingly write a character through a period of spiritual questioning that leads him to a realization about their sexual orientaion or a religious conversion. I would be quite offended however if a writer were to expect me to believe that (for example) Captain America’s decided he’s gay overnight.
In short, the only argument Liefeld has is if he explicitly depicted Shatterstar as straight. If he didn’t you were well within your rights to interpret his sexuality however you wanted (and Marvel allowed). If he did, then you have an obligation to explain (even if very briefly) how the character made the journey from straight to gay or bi.