He feels betrayed and wounded because Marvel has Barack Obama encountering Spider-Man, asserting that plot elements were swiped from Savage Dragon. He states on Comicon.com:
I hear that they’re even doing a story similar to the one I did four years back, where an image-altering villain disguises himself as the President (in my story the Impostor replaced President Bush and took his place for a speech–in theirs the Chameleon, the shape-shifting villain, is going to spoil a speech being given by President-Elect Obama). The whole mess just feels really underhanded. I feel betrayed and, frankly, ripped off and in the real world–the one outside our funnybook bubble–Marvel will spin themselves as these great innovators who came up with this terrific publicity stunt–instead of the thieves they are.
I can totally sympathize. I remember some years back when I had a storyline in which the Hulk had to face the dilemma of giving a friend a blood transfusion in the hopes that it would cure him of AIDS. Imagine my chagrin when, a year or so later, The Savage Dragon had to face the dilemma of giving a friend a blood transfusion in the hopes that it would cure him of AIDS.
Boy, was I pìššëd øff.
PAD
• 
Oh, snap!
I actually used a few panels from that comic (yours) in a college Speech class. Something about how comic books weren’t just for kids, and were often thought provoking and relevant. Got a good grade, too, people were really surprised by the Hulk bits in particular belying their expectations. So, er, thanks many years later! 😀
Man, so much swiping going on. Variant covers showing Obama fistbumping Spidey, just like the Obama fistbumping his wife, which was swiped(parodied?) by the New Yorker. And the Obama campaign posters swiping Spider-Man’s red and blue color motifs… The list goes on.
At least we know the wheel keeps turning and what goes around…
“What kind of a disguise is that? I mean, c’mon, everyone’s just going to say, that’s just the Hulk with a big fin on his head…”
And so it goes…
Of course, his ending for the blood injection story was radically different.
And although I can’t recall any examples off the top of my head, I’ll go out on a limb and speculate that there are many many comic book stories where the hero foils a plot where the villain pretends to be someone else, someone powerful. Or substitutes a robot. Or something. Good grief, isn’t this like Evil World Domination Plot #17?
Posted by: Steven Johnson
“What kind of a disguise is that? I mean, c’mon, everyone’s just going to say, that’s just the Hulk with a big fin on his head…”
I’ve never even read “The Savage Dragon”, and i got that one an dlaughed myself silly in the comic store.
Then i put it back on the shelf and pretended i hadn’t read it… (Just kidding; it was the first one of my stack i read that day, and three people asked me what was so funny … and i showed them. Two thought it was hilarious; one thought it was an unnecessarily nasty dig.)
Zing!
It’s pretty ridiculous. Besides, Bill is right. The whole “shapeshifter impersonating a politician” thing has been done a million times.
Next month he’ll be claiming someone ripped off a story where Savage Dragon gets trapped in an elevator and has flashbacks for thirty pages.
Why is it appealing that fictional characters meet real world people? It just dates the stories and doesn’t add anything lasting to the legacy.
In this case, one is a fan of the other. And one is the first unabashed comics fan in the White House. I just can’t see Marvel NOT doing a story like this.
Good grief, isn’t this like Evil World Domination Plot #17
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpotTheImposter
Yeah I’m not sure it’s worth complaining about a supposed story swipe from the Obama/Spider-man issue since I’m sure the its happened many more times before Larsen thought of it. I imagine the Chameleon has looked like presidents and other leaders before if not in comics then in cartoon series and the same goes for Mystique and let’s not forgot about the Skrulls.
Though I think what PAD points out from his Hulk work is something far more important and in terms of comic books far more original and less immitated. Considering the number of people who don’t treat comic books as a serious medium would never consider that serious isues likes AIDS. That’s why I suppose Hollywood likes it when they can call a comic book a graphic novel.
I guess what I’m trying to say in this jumble of a reply is that some people sometimes think a bit too highly of themselves and that every breath they take seems to be original. And for the comic book medium dealing with AIDS is “original” for the medium.
Even the first season of Heroes had Sylar impersonating the President.
In fact, didn’t Marvel once write President Nixon as a villain?
He’s just jealous that the issue of ASM where Spider-Man meets Obama has outsold the issue of Savage Dragon where SD endorses Obama. In fact, at the comic store I frequent, whenever someone asked for or called about the Spider-Man comic, they were told that it was sold out but they did have the Savage Dragon Obama appearance.
Bill Mulligan wrote: “And although I can’t recall any examples off the top of my head, I’ll go out on a limb and speculate that there are many many comic book stories where the hero foils a plot where the villain pretends to be someone else, someone powerful. Or substitutes a robot. Or something. Good grief, isn’t this like Evil World Domination Plot #17?”
Well, Kang and Kodos substituted themselves for Clinton and Dole during the 1996 election…
I just can’t see Marvel NOT doing a story like this.
I can.
The only thing it’s going to do is inflate the numbers of this issue of Spidey… and all for 5 pages of blah.
Marvel Two-In-One 27, anyone?
Um, Dan Jurgens used this plot as far back as the Eighties and Booster Gold — shape-shifting villain Chiller planned to take George Bush’s place, then kill Reagan as a way of ascending to the Presidency. (Can’t remember why he wasn’t just going to take Reagan’s place.)
In fact, didn’t Marvel once write President Nixon as a villain?
During Steve Englehart’s run on Captain America & the Falcon in the mid-70s. The Secret Empire’s #1 turned out to be an unnamed high official in the White House. Never specifically identified, but very clear that’s who it was supposed to be.
OK There are times when snark is appropriate, and this is definitely one of them. As far as comics plots go, PAD’s transfusion story was an original creation, and Larsen’s ripoff was wrong. The old “master villain puts a double/twin/clone/android/alien shape-shifter in the place of X” ploy is old enough to belong to no one.
Marvel Two-in-One #27? Was that the one where Deathlok shoots “Jimmy Carter” and “Carter” then becomes The Impossible Man? And let’s not forget the conclusion of “The Eagle Has Landed” where the assassinated “Churchill” wasn’t really Churchill. Reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Gabbo prank-phone-called Krusty, upon which Krusty replied, “If this is anyone other than Steve Allen, you’re stealing my bit!”
@kirby you beat me to the Booster Gold reference. I just read those issues in the Booster Gold Showcase collection.
FWIW, the reason he wasn’t simply didn’t take Reagan’s place was because he was hired by a Senator who was also leader of The 1000. The plan was for Chiller as Bush to ascend to President, pick the Senator as the VP, then for Bush to resign leaving the Senator as President.
What useless knowledge I have now. Funny to read Erik Larsen’s quote a week after reading the Booster Gold story with such a similar plot.
Kirby beat me to Booster Gold, but beyond that one I know I’ve seen this plot a million times. Hëll, even the G.I. Joe cartoon of the 80’s ran a plot like that one where the President and other world leaders were replaced with synthoids.
Since Larsen and and I are about the same age and I’m pretty sure I’ve read bits where he said he watched that series; is he now going to cop to ripping off G.I. Joe?
I hear Erik Larson is keeping his fingers crossed Marvel can’t find a way to steal his story where Savage Dragon is tortured under suspicion of cheating on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire. It’ll ruin his negotiations for a movie adaptation.
Just a reminder every body…
STOP BLOGGING!!! TURN ON A TV!!! In two minutes we see BSG kick off its final season.
I’ve never been so happy to have the flu (and thus off work and at home) in my life.
~8?)
Wow. You all actually did stop blogging while it was on. I never knew I had such power before now.
I must show great responsibility… Screw that.
SEND ME MONEY NOW!!! LARGE BILLS WELCOME!!! NO CHECKS OR MONEY ORDERS!!! CASH ONLY PLEASE!!!
I’ll be waiting.
~8?)
Well, that’s Larsen for ya. He just can’t absolve himself of the deluded idea that his brilliant ideas can be conceived by others independently, and this is second time that I know of in which he’s accused a Marvel writer of swiping from him. But naturally, when he does it, I suppose we’re supposed to give him the benefit of the doubt that he came up with the idea himself. Obviously, only he is capable of conceiving of plots in which a criminal shapeshifter, well, criminally shapeshifts, only he could possibly think to apply that to the President, and only he could think of plots involving the blood of the various radiation-mutated Marvel characters.
God, what a whiny little crybaby bìŧçh.
Some guys are too egomaniacal even to notice how silly they’re acting.
I think it was Jimmy Palmiotti that said he was pìššëd because the Heroes TV show stole the idea of a regenerating heroine from his Painkiller Jane comics.
I mean, f*ck, Painkiller Jane is such an original creation herself, right? You take Wolverine, mix him with the Punisher, then make it a girl, ’cause this is the 1990s and bad guys rulez, and you have Painkiller Jane.
(And actually Heroes obviously was inspired by the X-Men themselves, not Painkiller Jane or other Image imitators)
I meant bad GIRLS rulez. Silly me.
Meanwhile, coming up in the film “Push”–a blond thirteen year old girl who manipulates events in the present in order to bring about future events that only she can perceive.
PAD
Well there was one little difference..
Savage Dragon gave his friend the blood transfusion in hopes it would save his life.
The Hulk decided his friends life wasn’t worth any potential risks and opted to play it safe by letting his friend die.
The Dragon himself summed up the difference in the SD issue with words to the effect of; “What kind of ÃSSHØLÊ would stand by and let his friend die if he could help him”
The Dragon was correct.
“The Dragon himself summed up the difference in the SD issue with words to the effect of; “What kind of ÃSSHØLÊ would stand by and let his friend die if he could help him”
The Dragon was correct.”
Not really. The effects of the radiation that flows in the Hulk’s blood has had… mixed… results in the past. It might save a life, but at what price? Are you saving a life if you turn that life into a rampaging monster?
If my friend was dying, I would take that risk (which Banner had done in the past, hence the She-Hulk).
I wouldn’t let him or her die because of what MIGHT happen.
“I wouldn’t let him or her die because of what MIGHT happen.”
You don’t know that. You haven’t lived that life, seen the pain and terror that it caused or ever had to make a choice like that.
I’ve known people who said that they could never take a life. A few of them, when placed in the position where they had to, did. I’ve known three people who said that they could handle taking a life in the line of duty. They did and they fell apart afterwards.
It’s things like that that writers of bad fiction like Eric’s forget when they’re too busy taking potshots at others. It’s not cut and dry and it’s not black and white.
You can claim anything now, but you don’t know anything for sure. You’ve never been there and you’ve had to make a choice like that.
Or mutate a virus more? (It ocurrs to me that in the comic book world, the effects wouldn’t necessarily be limited to the victim…)
Erik Larsen whinges?
Not exactly “Man bites dog”, is it…
Cheers.
Brandon: If my friend was dying, I would take that risk.
Luigi Novi: And the innocent civilians put in danger by rampaging gamma-irradiated monsters duking it out? Do you have the right to make that decision for them?
Brandon: I wouldn’t let him or her die because of what MIGHT happen.
Luigi Novi: Okay. But you might reevaluate that notion if what might happen actually ended up happening.
They still publish The Savage Dragon? I remember picking a few issues up ten years ago and was left unimpressed.
But, I’m not surprised he’s getting called out for being less-than-original. I thought when Larsen took over for AMS he was trying too hard to knock-off McFarlane’s style.
Anyway, I’m just glad Larsen hasn’t watched The Naked Gun 2 1/2 any time recently.
Posted by Brandon
The Dragon himself summed up the difference in the SD issue with words to the effect of; “What kind of ÃSSHØLÊ would stand by and let his friend die if he could help him”
The Dragon was correct.
Uh huh.
I forget which Brit was said to have replied to a question as to whether, faced with the choice, he would betray his country or betray a friend with something along the lines of “I would hope I would have the seimple common decency to betray my country.”
It’s a position you can afford to take if it’s not happening to you at the moment.
When the rubber hits the road, however, you might find yourself looking at it differently.
I won’t be pulled into a discussion of the merits of the respective stories, except to point out two things:
1) Erik was so petty that he not only had to lift the idea wholesale, but felt the need to lob an insult at the original concept he was swiping.
2) Villains disguising themselves as politicians had been done countless times before Marvel and Larsen did it. It’s a standard trope by this point and no one can claim it’s particularly original. The concept of a large green, monstrous character wrestling with the concept of whether to use his blood to give as a transfusion that could save a friend of his from AIDS has, to my knowledge, never been done before I did it. And Larsen did it months later without blinking an eye. I think he pretty much surrendered the high ground when it comes to plagiarism.
PAD
Don’t blame me; I voted for Mystique.
roger Tang: Or mutate a virus more? (It ocurrs to me that in the comic book world, the effects wouldn’t necessarily be limited to the victim…)
Wow, that’s an interesting thought. Has Marvel ever done a story about gamma irradiated viruses?
If only the Dragon were Ben Parker’s nephew.
Larsen should write a comic where, like, a boy switches bodies with his dad. Or, for employment or housing reasons, a man has to dress up as a woman. Can you imagine the hilarity?!
Peter: Erik was so petty that he not only had to lift the idea wholesale, but felt the need to lob an insult at the original concept he was swiping……And Larsen did it months later without blinking an eye. I think he pretty much surrendered the high ground when it comes to plagiarism.
Luigi Novi: Peter, from your initial blog entry, I assumed it was a case of him coming up with the same concept independently and coincidentally. But with the “áššhølë” comment, and your own interpretation that he was intentionally referencing it (and personally, I think he was insulting you with the “áššhølë” comment, and not merely your concept), wouldn’t that mean that he was deliberately offering a commentary or quasi-satirical reaction to it, rather than plagiarizing with the intention of making readers think he came up with it independently?
I mean, didn’t he pretty much make a similar accusation years ago regarding the stories each of you did pitting Doc Ock and the Hulk? He pointed out that a character, maybe the Hulk, IIRC, flicked his finger at another character, with the line, “I’m giving you the finger”, and that you were plagiarizing him when you used the same line in a rematch scene in which you depicted how a Doc Ock/Hulk battle should’ve rightfully play out. My feeling was that if you were intentionally referencing Larsen and his story by using that line, that it was not plagiarism, because there was no intent to pass it off as your own. (He also pointed out that you used it later in a Spider-Man 2099 story, but I don’t know what to make of that.) Doesn’t the same apply now that he was referencing your story?
The first thing that came to my mind after reading the Obama/Spidey story was that Wildstorm had someone impersonating (and coming face to face with) the black POTUS in their recently-completed CHUCK mini-series.
I was lucky enough to go to the signing that Zeb Wells and Todd Nauck did the night this issue dropped. I’ve known Todd for a while, so I gave him grief about Obama giving Spidey what Fox News so charmingly termed the “terrorist fist-bump.”
Needless to say Todd, who is one of the nicest guys in the world, didn’t like that. I love the term he came up with instead, and have already started using it:
Friendly Neighborhood Fist-Bump.
I honestly don’t care what his motivation was, Luigi. The bottom line is that I had a storyline that had never been done before and he lifted it wholesale. Deliberately. Intentionally. In the meantime he’s convinced that Marvel ripped off a story concept that was, to put it mildly, not original. No sympathy from this quarter.
PAD
I can certainly understand the anger getting shafted like that can engender, even after quite a few years have passed (I’ve come up with a few software solutions where the credit – and in one case a very nice bonus – have been ‘appropriated’ by various managers or colleagues, and I’d suspect I had a lot less emotional investment in them than a writer does in a good story)
I remember reading the Hulk issue and really liking it. I never read the Larsen – I think I flipped through one issue of SD, didn’t like the art or writing and never went back no more, no more… Giving in for a moment to my Devil’s Apricot compulsion, is there any argument that by having his character arrive at a different choice he was debating what you’d done? Or just being an ášš?
Personally, what I have seen, read, heard about Larsen and a few others of his generation in the industry just leaves me vague feeling that they don’t respect what people in the industry do for a living, other than as a cash cow, hence my earlier post…
Cheers.
I can certainly understand the anger getting shafted like that can engender, even after quite a few years have passed
You gotta understand something: I’m not REALLY angry, or even pìššëd øff. I was being ironic. At the time when I read it, I thought, Well, that’s Erik being a dìçk, reducing a hideous disease to a punch line. And I went on about my business. I really haven’t given any thought to it in years. I only thought of it now because Erik was bleating about allegedly being ripped off.
Look, if Barack Obama had stated his favorite comic was Savage Dragon and Marvel put out an issue of the Hulk which showed the Hulk with a fin on his head shaking hands with Obama, THEN Erik’s got something to complain about. But Obama said he was a Spider-Man fan and Marvel leaped onto the opportunity. Simple as that.
At some point you’re supposed to grow up and stop shouting, “I call shotgun!”
PAD
What’s also a bit dense with Eric’s gripe is that that the gimmick, when you really look at it, combined with the plot descriptions indicate that they’re not really that similar. Someone pretending for their own nefarious reasons to be the Prez isn’t the same thing as someone pretending for their own nefarious reasons to be someone else to get close to the Prez and do something bad to him. The base plots and the motivation of the characters involved really isn’t the same at all.
The only common traits they share are that they involve a real President rather than a fictional stand in, a hero and a shape changing villain. Not a lot to claim being ripped off over since those three things predate Eric’s story and, if you just use the concept of a POTUS rather than a real life POTUS, you have thousands of comic book, cartoon and sci-fi stories with those three things going back decades.
But looking back at Eric’s past history of outbursts it’s not all that surprising that he thinks that he’s been ripped off. Even if you discount his many “Look at me!” stunts; Eric never really has shown that he realizes that the superficial and the surface gloss does not a story make. He sees three surface similarities and cries that they’re the same. Is anyone at all surprised that he’s unable to see that the plots aren’t the same?
Maybe he’s just mad that the media didn’t go all gaga when Savage Dragon’s endorsement put Obama “over the top” to win the election?
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18779
I didn’t know about the Savage Dragon story copying/answering to the famous Hulk story. I’m not sure what to make of it, but I will say this:
Whether the Hulk was right or wrong in not giving Jim Wilson his blood is besides the point. It is a decision the character made. It isn’t necessarily what PAD would’ve done, or what PAD thinks would be the optimum decision.
In a medium where so often the creators write about thinly-disguised alter egos that are never wrong and are only mouthpieces for the writer (writers like Warren Ellis and Garth Ennis come to mind), people forget that some writers are able to write about characters with different agendas or viewpoints than the writer himself.
Erik doing a whole story saying the Hulk was wrong is silly and besides the point. I’m not sure what SHOULD be done, but it’s clear to me that a guy like Bruce Banner, that lived with the horror of the destruction the Hulk caused throughout the years, would understandably be very careful about giving someone a blood transfusion, again.
Jennifer Walters turned out all right, but I think that was a spur-of-the-moment decision, and made by a Bruce Banner with almost two decades of comic book time less emotional baggage of rotten stuff he suffered because of the Hulk.