Reacting to the incursion, chief negotiator for the Palestinian Authority Saeb Erakat said: “What this will do is undermine the peace process.” The Palestinian Authority is the government of President Mahmoud Abbas.
Is that what they have over there? A peace process? Processed peace, which is just as much real peace as processed meat is real meat.
Or perhaps it’s a spelling error and he said “piece process” which consists of Hamas raining down missiles from Gaza and trying to blow Israel to pieces.
Idiots. The second the cease fire was over they started firing lobbing artillery at Israel. What did they THINK was going to happen?
PAD
• 
Jeffrey, when did I call you a Neo-Nazi? When did I say you’re anti-semitic? You seem touchy about this for some reason, but I never called you a racist.
What did I say about you that could be considered casting aspersions? I said that your hatred for Israel shocks me. And it does. I said that your comparision of Israel with Nazi Germany was crazy.
I don’t think you’re a Neo-Nazi or a racist. I know plenty of people that hate Israel with a passion and that are not racists. Your rethoric regarding Israel is not the rethoric of a racist, it’s the rethoric of many a Leftist student I used to know when I went to college, for instance. None of them were racist either.
Jeffrey, review the thread. You’re the one inferring the agenda of nurturing a master-race from someone who said he likes the idea of providing a national ethnic-sanctuary.
What facts have you introduced that change the meaning of anything said here? What is the urgency for you to say anything you’ve said? Your disappointment with life underscores everything you say. If you don’t know what you want, what hope can you have of ever being accommodated or fulfilled?
Further clarification. I DID say in former posts that some persons in the Left seem racist to me, but NOT in a nazi or anti-semitic way. Quite the opposite. What I said was that a portion of the Left is always opposed to the “White Man” in any conflicts.
In short, the very opposite of a “Neo-Nazi”.
“And now you are trying to play revisionist. At least you remain so obviously transparent.”
No, you just can’t read…
PAD says Israel’s goal is to live in peace. Well, yes, it would prefer that, but all of the wars between Israel and its neighbors have been about only one thing: real estate. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, etc., say “That land – yeah, that piece right there – get the hëll off of it, or I’m going to kill you!” Israel says “No! Screw you! I’m gonna kill you, you SOB! Shut up. It’s mine, and my gun is a lot bigger than yours.” Israelis want to live where they are living, and insist it is theirs. Palestinians want to live where the Israelis are living, and insist it is theirs. Israel’s going to say and believe the same things a century from now, and Palestinians will do the same. Each party’s argument is exactly the same: “It’s mine, not yours, and you should go away and let me enjoy it without the blight of your presence.” There’s much talk about the Palestinians not being the good guys and fighting fair. Yes, most definitely, they have used illegal tactics, those nasty terrorist murderous guerrillas! Israelis pays tribute to the heroic founders of their state – nasty terrorist murderous guerrillas. If one values one ethnicity or skin color more than others, as is fairly common in the West, let’s remember that the Stern Gang and Irgun started off by killing British, French and Swedish diplomats. Why, if one were to hear about dirty Arabs blowing up consulates and assassinating UN officials, one might very well – I’ll come right out and blurt it – consider them the kind of vermin one erases with napalm. It wasn’t Arabs, however. These groups were composed primarily of European born and educated Jews who disagreed with the timetable of establishing a state for them – disagreed with dynamite and cordite.
Yasir Afafat was an evil terrorist. Yes.
Menachem Begin was an evil terrorist.
Reinhardt Heydrich killed people because they were Jewish.
Ariel Sharon killed people because they were not.
…and I can’t proofread very well. Don’t blow me up, please.
What is special about Israel, that any distaste for its foreign and domestic policies is nothing but Neo-Nazism?
Where is the evidence that anyone here falls into he category of universal acclaim for everything Israel does? That’s a strawman argument. Rooting for Israel over hamas does not equal a blanket endorsement for Israel. Implying otherwise is just the flip side of those who try to turn any criticism of Israel into de facto proof of antisemitism.
Why should the American colonists get a pass, but not the Israeli govt?
Whenever I read discussions about Israel and its neighbors, people seem more concerned about dishing out the blame instead of finding a solution that will end the fighting–while still leaving at least a couple people alive on both sides. It’s because people insist on blaming one another that conflicts never get resolved.
Whether Israel is right or wrong doesn’t really matter if, in the long run, their actions do nothing but exacerbate the conflict (which may or may not be happening as we speak). Or is there no solution? Is this whole situation just one big Kobayashi Maru? Is it simply a matter of kill or be killed?
Any ideas?
Mike: The American colonists should not get a pass, any more than the Israeli government. That’s exactly the point. Those who say the Israeli government is acting from pure motives are mistaken. It is a government, like any other, which wishes to support its own people at any expense to others.
We’re bášŧárdš.
The Palestinians are bášŧárdš.
Many other people are bášŧárdš.
So are the Israelis.
People want to take the shiny, pretty things they see in other people’s hands, and they become indignant when anyone tries to take it from them or return it to whomever they stole it from. I do not think the primary cause of Israeli contempt for Palestinian interests is any overt racism or outrage at Palestinian savagery: No, it is a powerful aversion to giving back what was stolen from them for Israeli benefit. This is exactly the sort of thinking that long made white Americans terrified of supposed predatory black rapists looking for some white meat around the pink: It was well known, but seldom spoken, how so many black slave women had been raped by white owners and overseers. It is appallingly frightening to ANYONE that his victims will return the treatment.
Israel is not particularly different from any other state. The problem is that it just keeps on doing what other states are ashamed of in their own pasts, and proclaims that whatever it does is not only necessary but good.
Mike: The American colonists should not get a pass, any more than the Israeli government. That’s exactly the point. Those who say the Israeli government is acting from pure motives are mistaken. It is a government, like any other, which wishes to support its own people at any expense to others.
We’re bášŧárdš.
The Palestinians are bášŧárdš.
Many other people are bášŧárdš.
So are the Israelis.
People want to take the shiny, pretty things they see in other people’s hands, and they become indignant when anyone tries to take it from them or return it to whomever they stole it from. I do not think the primary cause of Israeli contempt for Palestinian interests is any overt racism or outrage at Palestinian savagery: No, it is a powerful aversion to giving back what was stolen from them for Israeli benefit. This is exactly the sort of thinking that long made white Americans terrified of supposed predatory black rapists looking for some white meat around the pink: It was well known, but seldom spoken, how so many black slave women had been raped by white owners and overseers. It is appallingly frightening to ANYONE that his victims will return the treatment.
Israel is not particularly different from any other state. The problem is that it just keeps on doing what other states are ashamed of in their own pasts, and proclaims that whatever it does is not only necessary but good.
The double-post has no specific evil, cabalistic intent. My computer was glitching, so you’ve got twice as much of my optimistic musings.
Jeffrey, is there an actionable observation anywhere in anything you’ve posted, or anything that changes the meaning of anything else posted here?
“If one values one ethnicity or skin color more than others, as is fairly common in the West”
As is fairly common everywhere, actually. Pride in one’s ethnicity is VERY common outside the West too.
“We’re bášŧárdš.
The Palestinians are bášŧárdš.
Many other people are bášŧárdš.”
That is not something I’ll disagree with. But when you write 20 angry posts harshly condemning Israel and then finally throw in some short remarks about Hamas not being good guys either, should you be surprised if people assume you obviously favor one side of the conflict?
“Israel is not particularly different from any other state. The problem is that it just keeps on doing what other states are ashamed of in their own pasts, and proclaims that whatever it does is not only necessary but good.”
I think one obvious difference between Israel and other former states is that England or Spain’s existences were never at stake when they faced rebellions of their former colonies. It was rather their status as world powers that was at stake.
“I think one obvious difference between Israel and other former states is that England or Spain’s existences were never at stake when they faced rebellions of their former colonies. It was rather their status as world powers that was at stake.”
How is Israel threatened by a group of people that don’t even have sewage disposal? Israel has planes, tanks and a huge army. The Palestinians have home-made rockets that almost never even reach their targets. They don’t even have the infrastructure necessary for survival, since Israel has destroyed it over and over.
Seriously, think about the proportions for a moment.
You don’t seem to be considering the proportions of vulnerability. What circumstances are good enough for you to counter terrorism?
“How is Israel threatened by a group of people that don’t even have sewage disposal? Israel has planes, tanks and a huge army. The Palestinians have home-made rockets that almost never even reach their targets. They don’t even have the infrastructure necessary for survival, since Israel has destroyed it over and over.”
Obviously, I’m not talking about the Palestinian capability to outfight Israel. Rather, I was thinking what if Israel accepted all the demands that seem very reasonable at first sight: give all Palestinians full citizenship, give all Palestinians in other countries the right to return, adopt an immigration policy that doesn’t discriminate by creed or race. In short, all the things that the concerned Left demand that Israel do.
I wonder if in in a few decades Israel wouldn’t be ruled by Sharia, with Jews a minority, Palestinians the huge majority, the society indistinguishable from the Muslim states that surround it.
Rene: “you don’t think there are flaws in Arab/Palestinian culture? No culture is free of flaws. Some speeches made by many Hamas activists are remarkably similar to the speeches a fanatical US Southern priest could have made”
You awnser yourself… Hamas radicalism and inflamatory vocabulary is not a cultural trait, but a human one. I have seen examples in my country, in the USA, in Japan… The influence that kind of messages might have in their audience neither is a cultural trait but a contextual one: societies in crisis are easier to influence into choosing extreme “solutions” to their perceived problems. The problem these days is the media tends to chew everything and spit a simplified, manicheist version for the general public consumption; Arabs are extremists, Indians are peace loving, Germans are dangerous, French are cowards, Americans are arrogant and spaniards are lazy… And that tends to permeate.
On other key… I know that comment wasnt directed at me, nor I want to appear now as all ballsy, but the fact that I use my internet persona here (El Hombre Malo, luchador extraordinaire) is not meant to hide that under the mask I am the meek Juan Porras Hernández. I think I even mentioned that a few years ago. Anyway, Craig comment made me realize is only fair I state my real name every once in a while. Now, dont use that to prey on my loved ones or anything.
1
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1144758
this is how the conflict is being taken advantage of by people with a bias.
AJC Cartoonist Mike Luckovich’s take on the situation:
http://www.gocomics.com/mikeluckovich/2009/01/06/
Hey Mike, Israel is now bombing schools with phosphorus bombs. You must be ecstatic with joy over that.. might want to change your pants though..
Make sure to tape the scenes with the dead children so you can rewind and continue jërkìņg øff at your leisure.
You know.. like youre doing here
I’d say its down to economics. Its easy to get people to strap a bomb to themselves when they have no future.
Now I’m not taking sides but 80% of palestine is in complete poverty.
Not “they cut off my broadband” poverty, but more “we eat food with U.N. stamped on it cause we can’t grow our own” poverty.
Its hard to get someone to strap a bomb to themselves if they have a full stomach, clean clothes and a future ahead of them.
Now, without being an expert, anything that would allow palestine to have a prosperous economy should be done.
Then when their is a rocket attack from palestine, their people will protest against it. As the Isrealis are their own goverment.
Religious and national differences don’t mean much on a full stomach.
A few days without eating and you could hit someone cause you don’t like their hat.
Now, people are dead, but what was that quote in that Darrow film, (I know its a film but it can’t all be Shakespeare)
“Humanity has been one long slaughterhouse from its beginning until today and I have no doubt that the killing will go on forever”.
The point is, if you taking a side, for whatever reason, you’re making things worse.
You have to wish for happiness and peace on both sides, of you’re just stirring things up.
There is room for things to get worst, and they might, but the world is full of us against them, if people can’t stop and see that
this is us against us, then we’re all finished. Not all dead, but all finished. And the world is just a place where people die while other people get on with their day.
Let’s assume that Palestinians are the bogeymen here (which I would not, otherwise): Fine! UN schools are not Palestinian, but international. When Mobutu Sese Seko blew UN and Red Cross aircraft out of the sky people thought…well, that he was being beastly unkind! That sort of thing just seemed to be pìššìņg in the face of the world – the sort of thing nice folks don’t do. It is probably much easier to hit a UN school that persistently remains in one place than to shoot those pesky airplanes out of the sky. Certainly, we can say Israel has a knack for doing it, anyway.
When you drop bombs on UN installations you are politely asking the world to blow you up. Whatever should be done? Shall we follow the Israeli model, and obliterate the neighborhood of anyone who shoots rockets over the border?
Yassad, I’m just asking questions, and you haven’t said why they’re bad questions.
Rene: If you assume that Gaza has no chance of defeating Israel, isn’t your relish for Israel bombing Gaza something like an adult being angry that a toddler hit him in the leg with his tricycle, going home to get his shotgun and spreading the kid’s brains on the lawn?
I don’t relish Israel bombing Gaza. How could anyone sane relish death and destruction? Only because I don’t think Hamas has a realistic chance of taking down Israel by force of arms doesn’t mean I think Hamas couldn’t do some serious damage with suicide bombers, as they have done in the past. Equally, I don’t think Osama bin Laden could take down the USA, it doesn’t mean he isn’t a dangerous lunatic.
Hombre, Major Lynch –
Poverty is a factor. Still, human beings are more than their stomachs. The Palestinians are human beings, with the same capability for making choices as any other human being. My country is poor and many Brazilians go hungry, but no Brazilian has ever strapped a dámņëd bomb to themselves, as far as I know.
I always thought stuff like “He steals because he is poor” are very offensive to all the poor people everywhere that never stole. Poverty and oppression are not excuses for barbarism. Since some people are found of comparing Israel to Apartheid, I’ll say this: Nelson Mandela never strapped a bomb to himself or encouraged people to do so.
And anyway, I don’t see many people complaining that Palestinians are stealing food. People complain about rocket attacks and suicide bombers.
And yes, every culture has poisonous elements and poisonous ideas. If some Christian white dude marginalizes women, bashes gays, generally divides the world between the faithful and the chosen, and suppresses his individuality in the service of God, I say this Christian white dude is a dangerous lunatic. If some non-white Muslim dude holds these same views, I say he is also a dangerous lunatic.
It’s not only food and prosperity that the Palestinians (and many other Islamiscs) need. It’s a good dose of individualism, and the West should prioritize propaganda instead of warfare.
Rene: “It’s not only food and prosperity that the Palestinians (and many other Islamiscs) need. It’s a good dose of individualism, and the West should prioritize propaganda instead of warfare.”
While agreeing with your conclusion (propaganda over warfare) I disagree with the “individualism” part. First because thats colonialist ethnocentrism; “Since we are better off beign the way we are, they should be more like us”. And second because is false. The same you find the link of poverty and violence offensive to every poor person that is peaceful, you linking a perceived lack of individualism to extremism and violence is insulting to the many “non-individualistic” peaceful persons.
Moreover, the gregarious character of the mediterranean cultures is one shared by north african muslims, greeks, italians, spaniards… and jews. It is very present too in latinoamerican cultures, and when I was to Brazil I could witness it in the way people related to each other. Different than in Spain or Palestine for sure, but esentiallt the same. And it is actualy a cultural trait I cherish. There is much to admire and enjoy from northern european cultures, but their social life, in its broader sense, I dont.
This Huntington-esque notion where the better a society is doing the better its culture must be is only defensible from the point of view of the one sitting at the top. And its the razionalization of a very human but petty sentiment; “Why wont everybody be like me, like what I like and do what I do?”, something on an individual level we all have felt whenever faced with the fastidious bother of having to deal with someone else’s idiosicracy. Yet, societies are not persons. Cultural traits are simply the response to the medium and as strange as they seem, almost every time they are the best response possible for the subject they deal with.
There is evolution, of course, the medium may change and given enough time the society will develop new traits. But those changes have to come from within or wont become a new trait, just a coercion from outside, the undesired trait laying underneath, waiting to resurface. Not so long ago western societies liked their women home and shut up, their black men working at the field and their “queers” beaten up nicely… We didnt wake up one day and say “geez, this have to change”. It took centuries of intelectual discourse and decades of adaptation to become the “enlightened” societies we are now…and we havent sorted it all yet. And these changes were economicaly motivated, that is, contextual. Change the context and society will evolve.
I always wondered… for decades Palestine was under the control of Israel. The intifadas began in the eighties but before that everyone behind the green line were, de facto, dependants of the Israeli state. Police duties, borders, legal documents… all emanated from the Israeli state since they held the power, even if they didnt want it. So… who directed and administrated the education system?
Speaking of propaganda, there are few things as effective as a public, free and inclusive educative system. Throw a free breakfast in, like Roosevelt did, and you have the clases full. And you dont need to go obvious and teach them “Israel is good”, but you can radically affect their society with a few promotions of primary students. Yet, to my knowledge, Israel allowed education to fall into the hands of charity groups, often funded by saudi money. Since the Saudi wahabism was opposed to the laicist baathism that dominated Egypt, Syria and, more importantly, the PLO, I guess Israel though it was ok.
Boy were they wrong.
El Hombre Malo, while I agree with much of what you say, I think the onus should be on the failed cultures to explain why they shouldn’t change. If I were living in an Arab culture I’d want to know what it is that has kept them from being little more than a group of second rate powers ruled by thuggish despots. Only the value of oil has kept them from absolute horrific failure at every level–and the oil will run out. Are any of the states really ready for that day? Have they invested their wealth wisely?
Some blame religion but the secular states are no more inviting than the ones ruled by strict sharia law. Blaming the Jews for all their unhappiness merely disguises the reality that, were every Jew in Israel to die tomorrow, the Arab countries (and Iran) would benefit only for the few weeks it took to strip every thing of value from Israel’s corpse. Then they would most likely simply adjust to the new reality of killing off their brother Muslims for whatever offenses they imagine are being done to keep them forever down.
Huge amounts of money have been poured into the Palestinian cause. For what? I’ll make a prediction that can’t be in any way proven but I have little doubt as to it’s truth; if post war japan had been populated by the Palestinians it would still be rubble. And if the Palestinian territories had been populated by the Japanese they would now be a world power.
(That’s assuming we could switch the entire cultures of both areas, not just the racial makeup. I don’t think the Japanese are genetically superior to Palestinians).
I think one should be careful before calling a culture an abject failure but I don’t think you need to shy away from it when deserved.
Rene: You may be right that no one sane would relish death and destruction – but some people are very good at it, and the larger population keeps electing them to high office where they can keep on their avocation. Sanity may not be particularly widespread. Generals, guerrilla leaders and defense ministers keep having to change their letterheads to “President,” “El Presidente” or “Prime Minister.” Many, many people who aren’t very close to being certified seem to find being an efficient killer quite the item on the resume.
Menachem Begin must have had some kind of complex, wouldn’t you say? What kind of person thinks the best way to get a home is to blow up the people who told him he could have one? Ariel Sharon must have just had one conniption fit after another, as he just couldn’t stop himself from going off to kill new people from time to time. Perhaps it’s not his fault: Society must have forced him to blow up all those poor civilians in Qibya. Why, no sane person could EVER get off on killing civilians JUST because they were the wrong bunch of Semites, could he?
The UN seems more interested in preventing more weapons from getting into the hands of Hamas militants than in picking a side. Does that make them smart, or a bunch of pansies?
The comparison doesn’t seem valid on its face because Japan losing WWII was analogous to an addict hitting bottom. The Japanese culture was probably no less vulnerable then to the Palestinians’ foibles now. It isn’t fair to compare cultures pre- and post-sobriety.
Let’s assume that Palestinians are the bogeymen here (which I would not, otherwise): Fine! UN schools are not Palestinian, but international . . . . When you drop bombs on UN installations you are politely asking the world to blow you up. Whatever should be done? Shall we follow the Israeli model, and obliterate the neighborhood of anyone who shoots rockets over the border?
Early reports indicate that Hamas had guys firing mortars from the UN school. Let’s assume that’s true: Shouldn’t Hamas be lambasted for such actions?
And for the record, virtually no one here has a particular beef with Palestinians. It’s Hamas and their actions that they take objection to.
Let’s assume that Palestinians are the bogeymen here (which I would not, otherwise): Fine! UN schools are not Palestinian, but international . . . . When you drop bombs on UN installations you are politely asking the world to blow you up. Whatever should be done? Shall we follow the Israeli model, and obliterate the neighborhood of anyone who shoots rockets over the border?
Early reports indicate that Hamas had guys firing mortars from the UN school. Let’s assume that’s true: Shouldn’t Hamas be lambasted for such actions?
And for the record, virtually no one here has a particular beef with Palestinians. It’s Hamas and their actions that they take objection to.
Let’s assume that Palestinians are the bogeymen here (which I would not, otherwise): Fine! UN schools are not Palestinian, but international . . . . When you drop bombs on UN installations you are politely asking the world to blow you up. Whatever should be done? Shall we follow the Israeli model, and obliterate the neighborhood of anyone who shoots rockets over the border?
Early reports indicate that Hamas had guys firing mortars from the UN school. Let’s assume that’s true: Shouldn’t Hamas be lambasted for such actions?
And for the record, virtually no one here has a particular beef with Palestinians. It’s Hamas and their actions that they take objection to.
Posted by: Jeffrey S. Frawley
If you assume that Gaza has no chance of defeating Israel, isn’t your relish for Israel bombing Gaza something like an adult being angry that a toddler hit him in the leg with his tricycle, going home to get his shotgun and spreading the kid’s brains on the lawn?
Somewhat off-topic, but couldn’t resist the coincidence: What about a 4-year-old who gets a shotgun out of the closet and shoots someone who stepped on his foot?
Posted by: Bill Mulligan
El Hombre Malo, while I agree with much of what you say, I think the onus should be on the failed cultures to explain why they shouldn’t change. If I were living in an Arab culture I’d want to know what it is that has kept them from being little more than a group of second rate powers ruled by thuggish despots.
If you were living in an Arab culture and had been from birth, you very likely wouldn’t even think of that question to ask it. What we were raised in seems right and proper to us, for the most part. Look at the number of Russians who think re-instituting the USSR would be just peachy-keen.
I’m sorry, my mind keeps going off on tangents, though this one is a tad more relevant:
PAD said: Processed peace, which is just as much real peace as processed meat is real meat.
And i just bethought me “By whose difinition is processed meat not “real meat”? (Ignoring my own prejudices on the subject…):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvsthRP1pjs (1991 Hebrew National commercial)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyfU9qCkjo0 (1975 original – crappy video/audio)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnsn25UDoE0 (Oscar Meyer kosher franks)
I assume that my last comment (after the one immediately above) is in moderation because of it containing three YouTube URLs.
Or maybe i topyed my e-mail.
Anyway, i promise it’s harmless.
Hombre, you make good points, as always.
But I still hold to my point that a lack of individualism is crucial here. It’s an extreme lack of individualism that characterizes a culture that produces suicide bombers. You blow yourself up for a cause. The ultimate in selflessness.
The Kamikaze Japanese and the Muslims are the two cultures that comes to mind as the champions of heroic suicide. And both cultures emphasize selflessness. If we’re going to win the War on Terror, it’ll not be by force of arms, but by attacking this core idea.
We have a lot of conflict and suffering here in South America, but currently we are the continent with the least amount of *ethnic* conflict. We are also arguably the continent with least sexual repression and more acceptance of the sensuous pleasures in life. And the only continent with a great deal of miscigenation.
The War on Terror should be fought with a massive commercial and propaganda effort to instigate individualism, acceptance of sexuality, and a bit more gender equality in the Middle East.
Unfortunately, the Conservatives in the West are not equipped to fight this propaganda war, since at heart they share many values with the Muslim. The Liberals also would never do it, because they’re too much into multiculturalism and respecting other cultures (particularly non-white ones).
If you were living in an Arab culture and had been from birth, you very likely wouldn’t even think of that question to ask it. What we were raised in seems right and proper to us, for the most part. Look at the number of Russians who think re-instituting the USSR would be just peachy-keen.
I don’t know, there are lots of people here who have come to very different conclusions about what is right and proper than what they were taught as kids. Admittedly they may not have been exposed to the same level of propaganda as the average Palestinian kid or, if they had, the realistic chance of being shot and/or killed if they failed to tow the line.
The example of the Soviet Union kind of makes my point–Russia was vastly more successful than the current Arab cultures and was no slouch in the propaganda and repression business. yet the regime was unable to prevent its people from recognizing the fact that communism was not working. What is it about the Arab cultures that has allowed them to maintain a level of epic fail for so long while so much of the rest of the world has advanced?
Rene:
My country is poor and many Brazilians go hungry, but no Brazilian has ever strapped a dámņëd bomb to themselves, as far as I know.
I’m from Ireland, and we’ve had our share of bombs, which we have put behind us.
My point was that these people need to recruit. If you have a good job, money, a house, a happy family, a future, options. Then you are far far less likely to use a bomb or fire a rocket at someone. And you may condemn others who say they speak for you when they do it.
But if you’re hungry, cold, dirt poor, living in a city that could fall around your ears at any time. It makes thinking of the plight of others very difficult. Much less speaking up for sanity to prevail.
Its just sickening to hear of people dying on either side, the wasted potential is enormous. Each life could have been an artist, a scholar, a doctor investigating a cure for cancer.
In this now global community, each death is one less wonder for the world to enjoy later.
I recommend you watch the movie “Paradise Now”, its a realistic film about the poverty in Palestine. And sadly, in this day and age, making a film seems to be the best way to get your point across.
Individualism? Is that what these people need?
All the individualism in the world didn’t stop america and britain going to war, make car companies invent more hybrid or electric cars. or fix even the most obvious wrong doings in our society.
Bill Mulligan:”If I were living in an Arab culture I’d want to know what it is that has kept them from being little more than a group of second rate powers ruled by thuggish despots”
Well, if you were living in an Arab country you would probably know that:
-For 400+ years the arabs were under some foreign rule or the other. Be the Ottoman Empire, the French or the British, they weren’t allowed to decide much about anything. Try to remember that until the end of WWII Egypt, Transjordania, Syria, Lebanon, Lybia… the whole bunch of arab speaking countries were under direct rule or protectorate from France and Great Britain.
-While obviously not up to your standarts, most arab countries are not stagnant. Most of these countries have problems that mimic my own country a few decades back, and also progress at a healthy pace. We are talking about countries whose economies were entirely based on subsistence agriculture until a hanfull of decades ago, and who only now have regained control over their natural resources.
-And what about industry? It’s common for people born in developed countries to imagine economical improvement as a matter of simply building factories and rolling up your sleeves. They forget you have to have someone to sell whatever you make. Most industrial powers did it by protecting their internal markets with taxes and regulations until they had a healthy industry that could venture abroad. Great Britain did it, France did it… but when other countries tried to follow their example, the more developed countries called foul. Economic Liberalism they called it. The XIX century Germans had a better name: Kicking the ladder. You have to have a strong internal market, else you wont survive the illusion of free trade. And while Europe and America were building their industries, the arab countries were providing the agricultural and natural resources, and forced to buy the manufacturated goods. When they regained independence, it was free market time baby. You want to sell your lynum? then buy toasters from me. And so on. You would say making a reftigerator in Morocco would be cheaper than making it in France, with the low wages and all. But France’s already have a biggest market, allowing them bigger numbers, cheapening the productions. And when that is not enough they can even outsource to said Morocco, take advantage of the low wages and not ever raising them up because… well, they could move to somewhere even cheaper. So given the cards developing countries have to deal with, it is a miracle Arab countries have more tertiary industry than, say, Zaire.
-Oil is a mixed blessing, because it made the thugs the west left in charge cling to power. After all, who wants a few years of instability and political reform in the place whos feeding the world’s engines, right? It made certain thugs so powerful they could finance their own fringe version of Islam into worldwide status. Even so most countries invested oil money. I for one worked on many building projects for the arabic peninsula a few years ago. All oil funded, all development wise, all state of the art. Plus their banking investments. Somewhere I heard around 12% of the american economy is in Saudi hands… and Halliburton recently moved its headquarters to Dubay City. They must be doing something with all that money, yep.
-The arab culture could produce their very own strain of political reform, profoundly laicist and bent on tecnical modernization: Panarabism. Some places it went wrong (Syria), others it got hijacked by a West financed Thug (Irak) or got invaded by France and Great Britain simultaneusly (The Suez war with Nasser’s Egypt). You cant call them a failure if they keep trying, can you?
Muslim cultures have a cornered-animal defensive-position fed by an arbitrary US invasion of an oil-rich Muslim nation that was no immediate threat to anyone. Before that, they had Russian helicopters maiming and killing Muslim nomads. Before that, it was the various European empires. It’s that cornered-animal defensive-position that makes them think they are the removal-of-an-oppressor-away from carrying their obsolete values into the present.
You kind of had the same thing with the Germans after WWI. Europe was devastated after WWI, but the Treaty of Versailles left Germany owing more than it had capital and assets. It had a cornered-animal defensive-position that made it believe it was a removal-of-its-oppressors-away from… establishing another Euro-centric empire.
It’s the technological progress in the hands of obsolete values that make those obsolete values dangerous. Look what happened with the US when George Bush’s administration tried to apply technological progress to their obsolete Ayn-Randian values. Start Trek technology put in our hands would multiply this dysfunction until we updated our values to allow us to surf these devastating forces harmoniously.
If nobody here has a beef with the Palestinians, as as differentiated from Hamas, is there some mysterious reason the wholesale killing of the Palestinians, very much as differentiated from Hamas is so extremely amusing to so many people here? Obviously, this applies most fully to PAD and to a lesser degree to anyone else who might be mentioned.
The Palestinians, whether they are Hamas or not, resent being blown up by a technologically superior neighbor. What does Mr. David or the Israeli security staff THINK is going to happen? If any of them are lacking in imagination, consider the Resistance movement during World War II. The Third Reich, which had Krupp and I.G. Farben on its side, found the road difficult toward the end. Those pesky Resistance fighters, who were not so lucky, were still kicking when Hitler was ashes.
The Japanese example doesnt work because you have there a highly centralized state with millenia old social structures and an individual head whose word is law. Plus there is the issue of the american occupation.
The japanese, though defeated, were allowed to mantain their structures, their conventions and, most importantly, their future. There was never a point where a 14 year old japanese could think he had no future. Some would hold a grudge towards americans for all their life (think Mishima) but the society, as a whole, never collapsed. The USA understood from the very beggining that by occupying a country, the guys who were their enemies became their dependants, so they worked with them, made them become their associates.
(As much of a “leftie” as I am, I have allways admired how americans conducted their post WWII ocupations. Not flawless, of course, but actually very humane.)
Now think of Palestine. For two decades (1967-87) the occupied territories were little more than fenced areas. It took twenty years and the realization on the palestinian part that whatever change would only come from their hands for people to revolt. And even so, the first Intifada is a grassroot movement whose real impact was not achieved by the kids throwing stones at IDF tanks (No Hamas there, almost no PLO neither) but by a campaign of civil disobedience, strikes and a boycott to Israeli products, all three measures I am sure no one can object to.
If Japan had been held like a big archipielago prison until 1965… does anyone here doubt things would have been different? Were the crimes of pre 1967 arabs worse than WWII Japan?
Numbers and facts: There’s over Palestinians 600 in barely a week. How is this even approaching a tempered and rational response by Israel? Those kinds of numbers are a massacre, pure and simple.
Over 600 Palestinians dead, is what most the figures say…
Rene: Japanese and Arab culture might look mighty alike to you on the issue of individualism, but they are actually very different.
Ruth Benedict expains it well in “The Chrysanthemum and the Sword”, the anthropological study she wrote prior to the american occupation of Japan. Japanese are driven by duty, not selfeshness. A duty that comes from a deep sense of debt. Hyerarchy is based upon this sense of owing to your parents, to your teachers and ultimately, to the emperor. Social interaction causes the individual to become indebted constantly, for every little detail. And so, a huge pressure to pay back piles on everyone. Some even choose to ostracise, unable to cope with the anxiety. So, actually, it is a society of rigid links among very individualistic, solitary people. There are debts you cant pay (wich have a name I cant remember), the biggest one to the emperor. And that is the one invoked to recruit kamikazes. No promise of a nice afterdeath, just a fullfilment of your debt to the world that propaganda had to paralel to a samurai’s seppuku to actually recruit someone. And Seppuku is, ultimatelly, an individualistic act to improve your “credit rating”, so to speak, before leaving this world.
On the other hand, arabs are gregarious. Their culture evolved in an enviroment where you depend on an extended family to carry out bussines, raise your children or take care of you when you cant. Western media say clans, but from the perspective of a country who in some areas is very much the same I call it family. This apply to most mediterranean types on some level. Social interaction strenghten the ties you rely upon in times of need, the ones at the top pull the rest up to the extent of their power… This makes for a great deal of nepotism, of course, but also creates a safenet that is vital when state structures arent still developed. In my country, social ties are weakening slowly as the state is more able to provide that safenet. As I said before, cultural traits are contextual… Individualism cant be taught, it would come from a change in the scenery.
But I am getting ahead… Palestinians werent suiciding themselves until recently. Neither the arab forces that opposed Israel before 1967 and share most cultural traits with them. For decades the PLO waged a terrorism campaign towards Israel yet suicide bombers didnt appear until recently. The first of such attacks was, incidentally, an isolated one by a group of communist japanese terrorists in Tel Aviv airport, and then nothing until the late 80s… if suicidal human bombs are a consecuence of a cultural trait it must be a new one, so try look at whatever change in the context may have caused it.
Incidentally, as I researched some data to awnser this, I found that prior to modern terrorism, an ethnicity seemed awfully prone to blow themselve up to harm its enemies… the Dutch. Seems Dutch soldiers and sailors were keen on hugging a barrel of powder and lighting a fuse if they could take some enemies with them. My understanding of the dutch culture is… vague, but as I always say to my friend Eelco, you cant expect the worst form the futch after opening any given website ended in dot nl.
The Palestinians have not simply been left to fend for themselves. How much money has been wasted by the world with so little to show for it? Arafat could have used the money to become the father of his Country but apparently he was happy to just squirrel it away in hidden bank accounts. The current leadership doesn’t seem any better. Again, imagine if they got everything they wanted; a Jew free Middle East. Anyone seriously think that the lot of the average Palestinian would be one any of us would envy 5 or 10 years later? Worse, I’d imagine; without the whole Israeli /Arab conflict the world would probably pay as much attention to the Palestinians as they did the Kurds.
Oil is a mixed blessing, because it made the thugs the west left in charge cling to power. After all, who wants a few years of instability and political reform in the place whos feeding the world’s engines, right? It made certain thugs so powerful they could finance their own fringe version of Islam into worldwide status. Even so most countries invested oil money. I for one worked on many building projects for the arabic peninsula a few years ago. All oil funded, all development wise, all state of the art. Plus their banking investments. Somewhere I heard around 12% of the american economy is in Saudi hands… and Halliburton recently moved its headquarters to Dubay City. They must be doing something with all that money, yep.
I don’t doubt for a second that some of the wealthiest people in history currently reside in Arab countries. Unless there is a considerably better chance than I’ve been led to believe that some of this wealth will go toward improving the lot of the general population I’ll stick with my judgment that these are failed cultures.
From what I’ve been told by Arab friends and acquaintances, the best way for the average Arab to succeed is…to leave. A lot of the smart or lucky ones do. Brain drain is not the sign of a thriving culture. Can they turn it around? Sure, only a fool would believe them genetically incapable of the changes and improvements that so much of the rest of the world has embraced. But it will take a great leader to do it and he or she will be in great peril…and not from the Israelis.
Bill Mulligan:”Unless there is a considerably better chance than I’ve been led to believe that some of this wealth will go toward improving the lot of the general population I’ll stick with my judgment that these are failed cultures.”
By the same track of though, the USA is a failed culture if you compare it to Norway, where personal freedom and wealth distribution is paramount to none (except maybe Iceland before the banking colapse).
And, again, you are judging a culture failed because of contextual causes. If arabs had been opaque to democratic ventures and the distribution of wealth, your argument might have been valid, but there has been many examples of the contrary (with mixed success… but then the French Revolution is a cornerstone of modern western democracy and it ended up crowning a midget emperor. You have to fail befor eyou succeed and 60 years of arab independence is nothing…).
If you looked at Spain in the 40s you very well could say we were a failed culture. The same with Japanese in the 40s. An uninformed observed watching images of the Katrina crisis could have said the USA is a failed society. Yet the truth is a culture only fails if its not able to evolve and change when the medium changes. But change takes time.
By the way, I found this term, Sumud, that defines the civil resistence movement in Palestina. I had heard there were many examples of this, mainly before and during the first intifada, but I didnt knew it had a name, and it seems it is still alive. Worth a google, at least.