Reacting to the incursion, chief negotiator for the Palestinian Authority Saeb Erakat said: “What this will do is undermine the peace process.” The Palestinian Authority is the government of President Mahmoud Abbas.
Is that what they have over there? A peace process? Processed peace, which is just as much real peace as processed meat is real meat.
Or perhaps it’s a spelling error and he said “piece process” which consists of Hamas raining down missiles from Gaza and trying to blow Israel to pieces.
Idiots. The second the cease fire was over they started firing lobbing artillery at Israel. What did they THINK was going to happen?
PAD
• 
Let’s set aside the morality of Israel’s actions over the past few decades and consider their effect on its long term security. Israel wants its neighbors to leave it in peace. In order to do this, it takes whatever land it wants, diverts whatever resources it wants, kills whomever it wants, and demonizes any non-Jew (Lebanese Christians were shown no kindness, remember) who dares to live in the Middle East.
The Jordanians? No, they have no reason to love Israel.
The Syrians? Certainly not.
The Lebanese? Well, if they don’t mind the occasional massacre, shelling or occupation, they’re still demonized as not quite so fine as the sainted Israel, so no, they have no love for Israel.
Egypt? No.
West Bank Arabs? They’d like more control over their borders, roads and resources, so few friends are to be found there.
Gazans? They’re not all Hamas, but Israel’s indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas will make Hamas look like the good guys to them.
So, if Israel’s purpose is to maintain a permanent state of war with all of its neighbors, it’s doing a great job. If it thinks it can attain lasting peace by killing anyone it feels like, it will have to go all the way to genocide: When you antagonize the Arabs, just like anyone else, they will seek revenge, as long as they exist in any numbers. Adolf Eichmann is a very poor role model, I would have thought. Given world history prior to the establishment of Israel, its leaders should be similarly leery of genocide.
The Palestinian Narrative: For the past year or so, following Hamas’s victory in the Gaza elections, Israel has sealed the border to Gaza, cutting off both humanitarian aid and commercial traffic.
I have this funny feeling that if the election had been won by a party on a platform of, “We need to stop trying to destroy Israel and make a lasting peace,” Israel would not have felt the need to take up a defensive posture and adopt aggressive positions to protect itself.
If a government were put in place that advocated peace with Israel and wanted to take proactive steps to achieve it, and Israel’s response was, “We don’t believe you” and started bombing them, I would not approve of that.
Instead we have what we have: Hamas essentially blaming Israel for reacting to Hamas’s stated objectives.
PAD
Yeah, I’d say Israel can afford to sit there and take it.
Oh my God.
I have relatives there. People in their 70s, in their 80s and you actually think–you actually believe–that they should just sit around and absorb month after month, year after year of punishment on the off chance that Hamas will knock it off.
It’s like advising a battered wife to stand there and take it because maybe her husband’s arms will get tired.
Do YOU have anyone you know and love living there? Would you advise them to “just take it?”
PAD
I thought that Peter David was supposed to be DIFFERENT from that nutjob.
I am. Were I him, I would have banned you from this site.
PAD
My issue with the situation in Gaza is that these rocket attacks have been going on for about four years, and the Israeli government has done little. Sdorto is a ghost town, and people from Sdorot and Ashkelon suffer from PTS on a ridiculous scale.
Yet the entire time, the Israeli government did practically nothing. I confess, I have to wonder if some of it has to do with the fact that the current Israeli PM is a man who lost the last election and is only in power due to his successor being unable to put together a coalition. It smells.
So yeah, Israel’s reacting at all doesn’t bother me. I just want to know why now, and why to this extent?
Also, two more comments:
“Posted by Jeffrey S. Frawley at January 4, 2009 07:55 AM
Let’s set aside the morality of Israel’s actions over the past few decades and consider their effect on its long term security. Israel wants its neighbors to leave it in peace. In order to do this, it takes whatever land it wants, diverts whatever resources it wants, kills whomever it wants, and demonizes any non-Jew (Lebanese Christians were shown no kindness, remember) who dares to live in the Middle East.?
This is a very inaccurate Statement. Despite the name “Jewish State”, Israel is a multi-cultural society. Israeli Christians and Arabs have more rights than they do in surrounding nations. Indeed, non-citizen resident Arabs in East Jerusalem have the right to vote, despite not being citizens (and they can become citizens at any time. The Israeli government not only recognizes freedom of religion, but recognizes Sharia courts (as well as the Christian equivalent). If you take your case to a religious court, the government foots the bill, no matter what the religion.
As for “takes whatever land and resources they want”, as you said you would “set aside the morality of Israel’s actions over the past few decades, I’m assuming you’re not referring to Israel’s actions during ars of self-defense. Do you mean the Security Wall? Because Israel has given up land with the wall, to make sure they aren’t cutting off resources to those outside.
As for the nations you list, Egypt and Jordan both originally supported Lebanon II, and only turned against it later. Jordan and Israel are tied together fiscally, and rely on each other’s existence. So to, is Egypt.
Also, and this isn’t just to you Jeffrey, you’re kind of ignoring how Palestinians are treated in those other nations. Egyptian soldiers, right now, are firing on anyone who tries to get out of Gaza (as are Hamas militants).
I honestly feel for the Palestinian people. I do. It bugs the heck out of me that Israel’s response is hitting civilians. But the situation is a lot more complex than “Israel Bad” or even “Hamas bad”.
PAD:
“I have this funny feeling that if the election had been won by a party on a platform of, “We need to stop trying to destroy Israel and make a lasting peace,” Israel would not have felt the need to take up a defensive posture and adopt aggressive positions to protect itself.
If a government were put in place that advocated peace with Israel and wanted to take proactive steps to achieve it, and Israel’s response was, “We don’t believe you” and started bombing them, I would not approve of that.
Instead we have what we have: Hamas essentially blaming Israel for reacting to Hamas’s stated objectives. “
Yet Israel dealt with the PLO, which had the same objective.
I’m not defending Hamas at ALL, and hope it doesn’t come out that way. Like you, I have friends and family there.
I just think you’re oversimplifying a bit with that comment.
Hamas won the election because, when they’re not busy murdering people, they build hospitals. To a Palestinian, that contrasted better with the PA, who were robbing them blind in between murdering people.
I think, if Israel and the US lost a lot of credibility in the Arab world when they said, essentially “we refuse to recognize this election because the party we want didn’t win.”.
On the other hand, my favorite recent moment in Israeli Politics is when they pulled the passports of Hamas ministers, saying “If you don’t recognize our nation, you don’t need our passports.”
I had a point. I can’t remember what it was…
Oh, right!
Israel made peace with nations that wanted them dead in the past. Egypt comes to mind. Why not Hamas?
“Israel made peace with nations that wanted them dead in the past. Egypt comes to mind. Why not Hamas?”
Short answer: Because Egypt first made the conscious decision to stop wanting them dead.
Israel made peace with nations that wanted them dead in the past. Egypt comes to mind. Why not Hamas?
Israel didn’t make peace with Egypt. Egypt, in the person of Anwar Sadat, made peace with Israel. You’ve just proven my point in every way imaginable. Sadat decided to recognize Israel and make peace with them. Did Israel attack him in response? Bomb Egypt? No. They said “Great!” and made peace with him.
The Arab response? Egypt was condemned by other Arab nations and Sadat was assassinated.
So we have an historic example that, given the opportunity for peace, Israel embraces it. Whereas radical Arabs so deplore the idea that they’ll condemn and kill their own leaders for it.
PAD
What’s the endgame, PAD? We can agree on the evil of Hamas, but unless we conclude that the solution is to kill every living Palestinian in the territories, I don’t see how this current strategy helps Israel. Hamas will survive it, and simply use it as a recruiting tool.
I do have relatives in Israel, on both sides of my family, and I want to see them live in security, prosperity, and happiness. I just don’t see how the government’s current strategy gets them there.
The endgame, Matt? Short term? Probably a ceae fire will be proclaimed after which Hamas will catch its breath and then proceed to renew hostilities. Long term? One of my Israeli relatives believes that at some point in the future, people will look back and remember that at one time, there was a Jewish homeland. I hope he’s wrong; I fear he’s right.
PAD
Rob Brown: Yes Luigi, because we all know that every single one of those people who have been killed as a result of Israel’s actions was stockpiling weapons for Hamas.
Luigi Novi: My point is not that they were all stockpiling weapons there, but that the blood of any innocents in that home is on that Hamas leader who decided to stockpile weapons there, and refused to evacuate even after he was warned that that place was being targeted. In war, innocents get killed. But Israel is at least trying to play with some modicum of decency. Hamas is not. And if Hamas does not heed these warnings, then it’s their fault, not Israel’s, if the warnings are no “big deal”.
Rob Brown: Yeah, I’d say Israel can afford to sit there and take it.
Luigi Novi: So you take umbrage with my statement about the innocents being killed in the artillery stockpile house, but the innocents killed in Israel don’t count because there’s fewer of them? Way to be consistent, Rob. You really think when an Israeli finds out that a loved one is killed, that they’re going to do what? Feel any differently from the bereaved Palestinian because the Israeli victim is part of a smaller group? Arguing that anyone should just “sit there and take it” is stupid, intellectually crude, and morally inexcusable.
Michaeljjt: I just read something which truly disgusted me. Apparently (and if someone else has mentioned this previously, I apologize) the destruction of Israel is in the Hamas charter. Is the destruction of anyone of Islamic faith in Israel’s charter?
Rob Brown: It makes no difference, Michael. You don’t punish innocents for somebody else’s sins (in this case Hamas’ sins).
Luigi Novi: Hamas only got elected because the Palestinians voted for them. So the Palestinians are fully responsible for what Hamas does. When an innocent has done nothing to enable acts like the ones committed by Hamas, then indeed there wouldn’t be a difference. But when someone knowingly and willingly elects into office an organization who has such a thing in their charter, then there is indeed a difference.
Rob Brown: So why should I support Israel over Palestine? Answer me that. What makes Israel so pure and Palestine so evil and undeserving of mercy?
Luigi Novi: The fact that Palestine’s stated goal is to destroy Israel, whereas Israel has no such stated goal for Palestine, and the fact that Israel has shown that it wants piece, and is willing to negotiate and make concessions for that piece, whereas Palestine is not, as has been pointed out here numerous times.
Rob Brown: A proper response would be to kill only the people who fired those rockets and nobody else. And if that’s impossible, if there are innocents in the way, then you do NOTHING. It’s that simple.
Luigi Novi: Telling a country that they cannot defend themselves when attacked because civilians might get hurt is not “simple”. It’s stupid. If the “civilians” among the Palestinians don’t want to get hurt, then they shouldn’t elect organizations like Hamas. That has nothing to do with neoconservatism, that’s just common sense.
Rob Brown: I thought that Peter David was supposed to be DIFFERENT from that nutjob.
Luigi Novi: If you think that rant by Byrne resembles anything Peter has said, then the problem is not that there are no differences. It’s that you lack the ability to see them.
My wife is in Israel until she can get her visa situation straightened out. She’s as civilian and pacific as any rational, sane person. We’re both Jewish. I’m not speaking for her, but I’d want justice if anything happened to her over there. And I’m pretty sure if it was not rockets but rude letters and con artists she’s shrug ag call them fools. Instead, we have barrage after barrage of rockets and deliberately placing civilians/non-combatants in harm’s way while they want me and my people cleaned from the face of the Earth. Imagine of by some weird chance they DID get control of the Holy Land. If Israel said, “You’re right, we’ll move, we give up, you win unconditionally, everybody will be out before sundown on Friday so we can at least have Shabbat somewhere else”, then raise your hand if you REALLY think it would be done and over with. If so, I have a deal on a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you….
I, personally, have no use for fanatics or fundamentalists of any stripe.
That’s too fatalistic an outlook for me; I do believe there is a way for Israel to survive, but it has to involve changing the very nature of the game. You’re dead-on when you point to the fact that this is yet another repeating stage in the same cycle; that should be our first clue that it’s the wrong course of action.
We’re too caught up in reacting to world community condemnation and defending Israel’s actions as right because of the evil of those attacking it. The actions are wrong not because Israel is attacking unprovoked; they’re wrong because we can all see they’re not getting us anywhere we want to go.
At this point, I think the first step is for Israel (and AIPAC) to pressure the US government to lead a multinational peacekeeping force into the territories to disarm Hamas. There is some leverage to accomplish this; the continued conflict is creating problems not only for US foreign policy objectives, but also for regional governments (Egypt and Jordan, primarily). They want Hamas out of the picture almost as much as Israel, because this is stirring up fundamentalist forces in their own countries.
Puns? Really, PAD?
The problem with multinational peacekeeping forces is that they tend to quickly become co-opted into the terrorist groups. I point you to the kidnapping of three Israeli soldiers at the Hizbullah border about five or six years ago, in which the kidnappers used UN vehicles and uniforms to accomplish the deed. The nearby UN outpost had a video of the kidnap occurring, refused to admit that they had it for a long time, then finally released the video, one-time-view only to the relatives of the kidnapped soldiers — with the faces of the terrorists blurred out in order that they not be identifiable or brought to justice.
Multinational peacekeeping forces are only useful if they do their bloody jobs. That almost never actually happens (I’d actually be curious to know if there’s even one example of it working).
So we have an historic example that, given the opportunity for peace, Israel embraces it. Whereas radical Arabs so deplore the idea that they’ll condemn and kill their own leaders for it.
Well, we also have the historical case of a radical Israeli so deploring the peace option his leader embraced that he killed that leader.
Politics is the art of the possible, as has been famously said. Clearly, the current strategies on both sides are doing nothing to end or improve the situation. If you engage in the same behavior for decades, only to receive the same response, how does that make sense? Who cares if you are morally in the right or not.
But clearly, no one has the political will to change things. There’s enough religion in the world to make men hate one another, but not enough to make them love.
Oh, not the UN. They would be completely ineffectual. But ISAF and KFOR, under NATO auspices, have done a *relatively* good job in Afghanistan and Kosovo respectively. Something along those lines would be useful, I think.
Dear Peter,
I have a lot of respect for you as a writer, but I must admit that I am deeply saddened by your stand on this particular issue. The slaughter of innocent people is never acceptable, no matter which side does it and how it justifies it. Moreover, it is impossible to talk about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict without considering the 40 years of grinding occupation under which the Palestinians have lived and the fact that the Palestinians – including Hamas – are almost pathetically weak in comparison to Israel. Indeed, if this past week has demonstrated anything, it’s how weak the Palestinians really are. But being weak does not mean that they can be beaten, which is a whole other story.
This is a link to Glenn Greenwald’s most recent commentary in Salon. Glenn talks about the problem of tribalism and nationalism. It is really worth reading. He points out how tribalism has blinded many American supporters of Israel to the real issues on the ground in the ME and stunted their sense of empathy and understanding. For example, those who talk only of how the people in Sderot are feeling, without any apparent ability to understand how the civilians in Gaza must be feeling too.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/04/terrorism/
Sincerely,
Shaun
Rob Brown, the problem I have with what you say (and what many people of the left say) is that you guys seem to have a penchant for treating the Palestinians and Islamics in general as children that are not fully responsible for their actions.
Hamas purposefully targets civilians, Hamas’s chart calls for the destruction of Israel, Palestinian civilians mostly have no love for Israel and no condemnation of Hamas, and it’s ISRAEL that should just “take it” if they can’t find a way to stop the attacks without endangering civilians?
Tell me, why is it that you think people of Islamic faith are not moral agents? Aren’t they responsible for their actions and choices, as much as we here in the West? Don’t you think that if I lob rockets at you and then hide among civilians to stay your hand, I’m not responsible for whatever madness happens? Don’t you think it’s condescending of the left-wing to treat Palestinians as incompetent children that know no better?
The slaughter of innocent people is never acceptable, no matter which side does it and how it justifies it.
I never said “acceptable.” I said “to be expected.” Their issue should not be with the Israeli’s it should be with their leaders who made them targets. Hamas targets Israeli civilians and uses its own people as pawns and shields. That’s not a “stance.” That’s a statement of fact.
“Grinding occupation?” You realize part of the problem is that the Palestinians are stuck there because the surrounding Arab countries won’t let them into their own countries, right? Purposefully? In order to try and drive Israel out? Where’s their culpability?
Why is it that Israel is to blame for all the actions taken by their neighbors?
Are you to blame for the things your neighbors do to you?
PAD
Mordechai Luchins: I will not deny that neighboring states are abusive. So what? Israel is purported to have been founded on very high moral grounds, and claims that it treats everyone fairly and kindly. If it doesn’t, in fact, do so, it is a lie to say it does. It is the stated position of the government (and many of the citizens) that Israel will remain a Jewish State and a Democracy. This is in itself impossible: Remaining a Jewish state (or any other religion – it would work as much this way for Presbyterians or Wiccans) entails maintaining the country of and for one particular religion. Those of another religion, should they become the majority, MUST be either denied equal voting rights, expelled or killed – or the Jewish state will be no more. This is not democracy, but theocracy. When the Iranians or Taliban do that kind of thing we think it stinks.
Multinational peacekeeping forces are only useful if they do their bloody jobs. That almost never actually happens (I’d actually be curious to know if there’s even one example of it working).
Serbia comes to mind.
I think, if Israel and the US lost a lot of credibility in the Arab world when they said, essentially “we refuse to recognize this election because the party we want didn’t win.”.
At the risk of seeming like I’m beating a dead horse, we can thank Bush for that too. He was the one who pushed for Palistinian elections despite being warned that it would almost certainly result in a Hamas victory.
Luigi Novi: Hamas only got elected because the Palestinians voted for them. So the Palestinians are fully responsible for what Hamas does
That’s bûllšhìŧ, Luigi. If you voted for George W. Bush four years ago, or if somebody you know did, that doesn’t make them responsible for everything he did subsequently. Casting a vote is not the same as using a weapon.
PAD: I have relatives there. People in their 70s, in their 80s and you actually think–you actually believe–that they should just sit around and absorb month after month, year after year of punishment on the off chance that Hamas will knock it off.
If they’ve managed to live into their 70s and 80s, they haven’t absorbed any punishment at all. At worst, one or both of them got hurt at some point, and that’s luckier than the most of the victims of this Israeli strike.
Luigi Novi: The fact that Palestine’s stated goal is to destroy Israel, whereas Israel has no such stated goal for Palestine, and the fact that Israel has shown that it wants piece, and is willing to negotiate and make concessions for that piece, whereas Palestine is not, as has been pointed out here numerous times.
Nice generalizing there, Luigi. Everybody in Palestine is evil, subhuman, either deserves to die or it doesn’t matter if they do die.
Duly noted.
Why is it that Israel is to blame for all the actions taken by their neighbors?
Why is it that Israel is NEVER to blame?
If in 2003 Israel had gotten intelligence about WMDs in Iraq and decided to invade and bomb the country into the stone age just to be on the safe side, you would’ve been all for it I bet. Because it’s Israel, and Israel can never be wrong.
Oh yeah, and you have relatives there, so that makes any action Israel takes even more justified, because it ensures the safety of your relatives and their safety is more important than that of some stranger living in Iraq.
Or some stranger living in Palestine.
And honestly? I’m not sure what constitutes a civilian anymore. They’re indoctrinating their children into a philosophy that says Israel must be wiped off the face of the earth. You read about the Hamas leader whose children were killed in the raid and your first thought is, “Oh, those poor children”…except last year that same leader sent one of his own sons on a suicide bombing raid to blow up Israeli civilians.
Gotcha. The children are monstrous killers too, all of ’em or close enough to all of them that it makes no difference, and if any children died in this strike then it’s cool because they would have grown up to attack Israel anyway. You can’t trust anybody, in all of Palestine. They’re all monsters.
I know it’s futile but I’m gonna say it anyway: LISTEN TO YOURSELF! You, and also Luigi, are rationalizing this slaughter by saying that there are virtually no true innocents in the line of fire.
I am. Were I him, I would have banned you from this site.
You’re a hëll of a lot more similar to Byrne than you want to think. Or maybe you know that you’re similar to him in some ways and you don’t see that as a bad thing.
Byrne was saying it would be okay to bomb the hëll out of an entire region, be it Dublin or be it some Middle Eastern nation, in order to kill terrorists and that killing innocent people who had nothing to do with those terrorists would be okay.
You are saying the same thing.
The fact that Byrne seemed to actually be enthusiastic about killing everybody associated with terrorists in any way, whereas you’re just rationalizing pretty much the same thing without seeming to take enjoyment from it, makes no difference to me.
Both you guys are on record as being in favour of military actions that inevitably slaughter innocent people. The two of you are indeed alike, and deserve one another.
As for banning me, don’t bother. I’ll show myself out, and I have no intention of coming back to post again.
Some people are going to say “good riddance,” so I guess it’s their lucky day.
The post that started this contained a word I feel applies very nicely to all of you who are acting as cheerleaders for Israel and believe that all killing in Gaza, all the suffering, has been justified:
IDIOTS.
PAD: “You realize part of the problem is that the Palestinians are stuck there because the surrounding Arab countries won’t let them into their own countries, right? Purposefully? In order to try and drive Israel out? Where’s their culpability? “
Of course… because the problem would be solved if the palestinians left… Actually, there are a lot of Palestinians abroad wanting to return, Israel’s refusal to even discuss this point beign the key stone in the shoe of the palestinian delegation in the Dayton summit. Many say Al Fatah should have settled for what they got and forget the right to return of those abroad, but I think its obvious the people of Palestina want to stay where they are. Only probably a bit better.
He was the one who pushed for Palistinian elections despite being warned that it would almost certainly result in a Hamas victory.
He’s also put the world in a situation where Israel can feel justified with any action they take because of our pre-emptive attack in Iraq.
I’m of two minds about the whole thing, because what Israel is doing now obviously isn’t working; it isn’t stopping the violence, it isn’t even slowing it.
And I think the whole situation is compounded by the fact that the Palestinians are essentially a homeless people. The other Muslim Arab countries do not want them, and they will likely never truly be part of Israel.
I know it’s futile but I’m gonna say it anyway: LISTEN TO YOURSELF!
Yeah, okay: You’re acting like a complete jáçkášš now. You take everything I say, distort it, and then say “Got’cha” as if you understand it when, of course, you don’t, nor do you have an interest in doing so. I never said children are monstrous killers. I said that the Palestinians have willfully blurred the line between civilians and military targets, between children and soldiers, to the point where it becomes almost impossible to distinguish because they’re inculcating children from an early age to hate Israelis, not to mention Americans.
PAD
I will not deny that neighboring states are abusive. So what?
It is unfair to blame Israel for the entirety of the Palestinian situation if their neighbors contribute to it.
Israel is purported to have been founded on very high moral grounds, and claims that it treats everyone fairly and kindly. If it doesn’t, in fact, do so, it is a lie to say it does.
Same thing could be said about any government or person whose actions have, at times, failed to live up to its ideals (U.S. history is littered with such examples). But Israel has a history of treating citizens and non-citizens, Jews and Gentiles with equinamity. Sometimes they screw up, but they haven’t completely fallen from grace like you seem to suggest.
It is the stated position of the government (and many of the citizens) that Israel will remain a Jewish State and a Democracy. This is in itself impossible: Remaining a Jewish state (or any other religion – it would work as much this way for Presbyterians or Wiccans) entails maintaining the country of and for one particular religion. Those of another religion, should they become the majority, MUST be either denied equal voting rights, expelled or killed – or the Jewish state will be no more. This is not democracy, but theocracy. When the Iranians or Taliban do that kind of thing we think it stinks.
Particular religious faith is not a legal precondition to political office in Israel nor is the legal system entirely strictly based on religious law.
Israel is not a theocracy and you should know better than to suggest it is.
It is unfair to blame Israel for the entirety of the Palestinian situation if their neighbors contribute to it.
And I don’t think anybody is blaming Isreal for the entirety of the Palestinian situation. That would be overly simplistic. But at the same time, I don’t think it is fair to blame everything on the Palestinians.
Stll trying to refrain from making comment to the central point, but:
Posted by: Sasha
Particular religious faith is not a legal precondition to political office in Israel nor is the legal system entirely strictly based on religious law.
Nor was being a white male a pre-condition to being nominated or elected President of the US, but somehow it seemed to work out that way until just recently…
Israel is not a theocracy and you should know better than to suggest it is.
the difference between de jure and is the main reason that Chicago remains one of (if not the) most racist/segregated cities in the US.
PAD: Your argument is nothing other than this:
I like Israel. Israel is cool. If you say anything bad about Israel, I’ll kick you in the shins, or at least congratulate myself for not kicking you in the shins. You say Israel does bad things? LOTS of people do bad things, so Israel does not do bad things. QED!!
More seriously, if you acknowledge that targeting and killing civilians is unacceptable, then, wait for this…It is not acceptable for Israel to do it. The fact that it is Israel, rather than any other state, makes no difference at all. This crap about the other side being SO bad is of no significance. If Israel is to consider itself moral, it cannot match the atrocities committed elsewhere. Let’s go to one of my favorite subjects – World War II. There will be relatively little disagreement that Nazi Germany behaved badly – very naughty, indeed. You seldom see that kind of bad behavior, to be honest. Now, given that kind of bad behavior, responsible for, let’s say, several tens of millions of people, does anyone seriously believe it would have been appropriate for any of the Allied Powers to put – let’s say – a few hundred thousand German civilians in death camps? Come on, it’s a lot fewer than several tens of millions, so what’s the big deal about such a highly proportional atrocity? Crimes against humanity are just BAD – Sorry. The bad guys don’t have a pass to commit them.
Or, as a practical matter, does Israel recognize that some of the Gazan children are going to survive? If so, does it have any doubt that they will be righteously pìššëd at seeing their families blown up? When Israelis see that kind of thing happen to their families they scream for blood. Palestinians do the same. I could write the headlines for 2040 right now, and so could the Israelis.
More seriously, if you acknowledge that targeting and killing civilians is unacceptable, then, wait for this…It is not acceptable for Israel to do it.
They’re not doing that. They’re targeting military sites that Palestinians have shielded with citizens precisely so that people such as–well, you–can bleat that Israel is acting immorally. Israel gives the citizens warning to clear out before they attack military targets. Hamas provides no warning before they attack, specifically and solely, civilians.
You haven’t been around here for a while, Frawley. You haven’t been missed.
Back to shrouding you now.
PAD
Hamas is a criminal organization that gained power thanks to a demagogic use of the situation the palestinians are in… I think we all agree on that.
That’s democracy for you. In particular it’s what you get when the democratic votes are being distorted by a ‘neighbour’ stealing land and resources, dividing communities and so on and making the moderates look weak. People vote for extremists. Wish they didn’t, but the Palestinians did. Pretty much the way the Usanians did in 2004 when OBL pulled their strings as well.
Basically, their main weapon isn’t artillery, isn’t suicide bombers, isn’t even propaganda. Their main weapon is counting on Israel to be more considerate of human life than they are.
The body count’s what? 5-700 in Israel’s favour or thereabouts? Looks like they lost that bet.
Posted by: Sasha
Particular religious faith is not a legal precondition to political office in Israel nor is the legal system entirely strictly based on religious law.
Nor was being a white male a pre-condition to being nominated or elected President of the US, but somehow it seemed to work out that way until just recently…
Indeed, but we’ve had a number of non-white-males (and females) in other positions of power in the U.S. as Representatives, Senators, and Justices.
Israel hasn’t had a non-Jew as prime minister, but IIRC, it has had a good share of Christian and Muslim lawmakers and, I believe, judges.
Israel is not a theocracy and you should know better than to suggest it is.
the difference between de jure and is the main reason that Chicago remains one of (if not the) most racist/segregated cities in the US.
I wouldn’t classify Israel as a de facto theocracy either.
Posted by: Sasha
Particular religious faith is not a legal precondition to political office in Israel nor is the legal system entirely strictly based on religious law.
Nor was being a white male a pre-condition to being nominated or elected President of the US, but somehow it seemed to work out that way until just recently…
Indeed, but we’ve had a number of non-white-males (and females) in other positions of power in the U.S. as Representatives, Senators, and Justices.
Israel hasn’t had a non-Jew as prime minister, but IIRC, it has had a good share of Christian and Muslim lawmakers and, I believe, judges.
Israel is not a theocracy and you should know better than to suggest it is.
the difference between de jure and is the main reason that Chicago remains one of (if not the) most racist/segregated cities in the US.
I wouldn’t classify Israel as a de facto theocracy either.
The body count’s what? 5-700 in Israel’s favour or thereabouts? Looks like they lost that bet.
Israelis get a few seconds warning of incoming attacks and have an organized manner in which they reach shelter. Palestinians get minutes, if not hours, of warning and stay right where they are.
PAD
PAD,
Rob and Jeff are acting like total áššhølëš at best, or supposrting terrorists at worst.
Hamas has been launching terrorist assualts against Isreal seemingly forever. If the Palestinian civilians allow Hamas to store/station their weapons in their homes AND ignore Israel’s announced rtetalitory strikes, tghen they effectively declare themselves Hamas (terrorist) supporters and are fair game.
Frankly, how any intelligent being can support and/or defend a group that has destruction of a nation and it’s people in in charter is beyond me, unless they approve of that sort of genocide themselves.
Or ISrael could follow the USA’s lead and invade Iraq to go after it’s ties to Bin Laden and Hamas..oh…wait…
If the Palestinian’s truly want peace, then its up to them to root out, arrest, and turn over for punishment the terrorists in their lands (and leadership) positions to show that they aren’t a bunch of rabid animals.
I am not a jew, in fact I’m an atheist, but I have no beef with the jews, and actually like them (I’ve never seen or heard of a Jewish Televangelist or seen one preaching how if you don’t follow their religion you’re a terrible person and going to hëll). Christians could learn a lesson form them.
I have no beef with any religion – this includes Islam, not only Judaism – but I have plenty of beef with any state which behaves barbarously. This would be most of them – U.S., Israel, UK, Palestine, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. I’ve been lectured that Israel is not a theocracy. As one can’t even get married there without the approval of exceptionally Orthodox rabbis I have some doubts of this, but let’s accept it for now. There is a state – we can call it state “I,” if we feel like it – established in extreme southwestern Asia, populated by Europeans, Asians, North Africans and others. Prior to the establishment of the state, its proponents blew up or shot British, Palestinian, Swedish and North African people who either had political disagreements with them or were suspected of doing so. Some of them were sentenced to death for it, which wasn’t surprising, as they were well known terrorists. Some of them joined the Army, gained power, and led guerrilla raids into neighboring states to massacre civilians. Of these, a few became Prime Minister (of these, at least one is now in a permanent vegetative state – perhaps related to his morbid obesity and Type A personality, so we can dismiss him for now). Some of these nice fellows went to Lillehamer, Norway and shot a Moroccan they mistook for a Palestinian. These days it is considered gauche to suggest this sort of thing merits more than deportation. I doubt the next Norwegian who feels like shooting an Israeli waiter can expect that kind of consideration for his feelings. I also doubt world opinion would be kind if the British built adulatory memorials to English thugs who blew up Israelis while they went about their business – but Israel sees nothing inappropriate about commemorating the bombing of the King David Hotel that way. We’re MUCH more rational about that sort of thing in the U.S. – we put a needle in Timothy McVeigh’s arm for what he did to the Federal Building, rather than commending his brillaince to future generations. See – it is just not the polite thing to do to blow up innocent people. Sad to say, it shouldn’t matter what theology one observes: When a Palestinian murders Israeli civilians – that’s bad. When an Israeli murderss Palestinian civilians – that’s not even a little bit better.
Very seriously, if the same events were going on somewhere else – say East Timor and Indonesa, or Colombia and Panama, or, well, anywhere that had no connection with Israel – would PAD be so quick to admire the side that killed the most and suffered the least? I understand the Germans had the better of the Russians for a while in 1941-43: Do I hear a hurrah? After all, here you had highly advanced, Westernized folks in really keen uniforms, against a bunch of backward Asians…and, and, and, they killed a WHOLE LOT MORE Russians than those cossacks could kill of THEM!! Whoopee! The thing is, I don’t think one’s level of technology and military preparedness is an accurate measure of whether or not one is a murderous jáçkášš. Whether or not a killer shares my particular ethnicity is not very important.
“Israelis get a few seconds warning of incoming attacks and have an organized manner in which they reach shelter. Palestinians get minutes, if not hours, of warning and stay right where they are.”
PAD, you keep saying this and I don’t know why.
They have no where to go. Warning or no warning makes no difference.
A large part of the reason they have no where to go? Israel took their land and is now acting like they have a right to defend that land from its original owners, the Palestinians. I know it’s a difficult issue when you know people who live there, but the sad truth is that Israel is a nation full of aggressors actively occupying another group of people. Sadly, this does warrant a violent response.
What does Hamas expect to happen? They expect the world to open their eyes and finally see Israel for what it is, a terrorist state.
Sabir, I don’t want to get into the politics of this. I don’t understand it well enough to have an informed opinion.
However, I’m not buying the “they have nowhere to go” argument. They may not be able to buy a new house in another area, but they can at least get out of the way. If I knew a missile was going to hit my house, I’d find somewhere else to be, no matter what the conditions. Even if I had no family to stay with, I’d sleep on a street corner before I sat and watched a missile fly right at me.
“Mordechai Luchins: I will not deny that neighboring states are abusive. So what? Israel is purported to have been founded on very high moral grounds, and claims that it treats everyone fairly and kindly. If it doesn’t, in fact, do so, it is a lie to say it does. It is the stated position of the government (and many of the citizens) that Israel will remain a Jewish State and a Democracy. This is in itself impossible: Remaining a Jewish state (or any other religion – it would work as much this way for Presbyterians or Wiccans) entails maintaining the country of and for one particular religion. Those of another religion, should they become the majority, MUST be either denied equal voting rights, expelled or killed – or the Jewish state will be no more. This is not democracy, but theocracy. When the Iranians or Taliban do that kind of thing we think it stinks.”
Israel is not a theocracy. To suggest so is laughable. It ignores the fact that the founders of the State were Atheists and Agnostics.
Israel is a “Jewish State”in the sense that it is a “Jewish Homeland”. It’s goal is to be a Democracy where Jews have Right of Return. That is the only right unique to Jews in Israel. That was the goal of the State.
To the early Zionists, Judaism was an Ethnicity, not a Religion. You can be Ethnically or Racially Jewish without being Religious.
Israeli Arabs have equal rights, and Arabs have served in the Knesset since day 1. Israeli Arabs serve in the IDF of their own choice (Unlike other Israelis, who have mandatory service). Non-Citizen East Jerusalem Arabs have the vote. Name one other nation that lets non-citizens vote.
There are many, many things wrong with the State of Israel. However, it is not and has never been a theocracy, and to say so, frankly, is ignorant.
For all the people who are complaining this is all Israel’s fault (because, as you know it is ALWAYS Israel’s fault), I have this question—should the United States just “sit around and take it” if Canada or Mexico were to lob missiles at us?
I’d like a little more clarification on the amount of Israeli casualties being 5.
I think what people are saying is that there have been 5 Israeli deaths since the Israeli attack began. However, the attack was in retaliation for rocket attacks that have been going on for awhile, correct? So does anyone know the number of Israelis who have died from the rocket attacks that lead to the current battle?
Rob Brown: That’s bûllšhìŧ, Luigi. If you voted for George W. Bush four years ago, or if somebody you know did, that doesn’t make them responsible for everything he did subsequently.
Luigi Novi: Of course it does, provided that they had the ability to make an informed decision. If someone runs on a platform of freedom, and then suddenly reveals after getting into power that he’s a communist dictator, well, then that’s different. But if voters had plenty of info on which to base an informed decision that a given candidate is an incompetent, blinded-by-religion neocon hawk—and they certainly did with Bush—then they are indeed responsible for that President’s actions.
Peter David: fI have relatives there. People in their 70s, in their 80s and you actually think–you actually believe–that they should just sit around and absorb month after month, year after year of punishment on the off chance that Hamas will knock it off.
Rob Brown: If they’ve managed to live into their 70s and 80s, they haven’t absorbed any punishment at all.
Luigi Novi: You again show yourself to be incapable of forming coherent reasoning with crude statements like this. The reason this statement is flawed is because it requires one to assume that A. Living in fear is not punishment, and B. Surviving into one’s 70’s or 80’s means that one did not have loved ones who did not.
Rob Brown: Nice generalizing there, Luigi. Everybody in Palestine is evil, subhuman, either deserves to die or it doesn’t matter if they do die. Duly noted.
…
(to Peter) Gotcha. The children are monstrous killers too, all of ’em or close enough to all of them that it makes no difference, and if any children died in this strike then it’s cool because they would have grown up to attack Israel anyway. You can’t trust anybody, in all of Palestine. They’re all monsters.
I know it’s futile but I’m gonna say it anyway: LISTEN TO YOURSELF! You, and also Luigi, are rationalizing this slaughter by saying that there are virtually no true innocents in the line of fire.
Luigi Novi: Your words. Not ours.
Rob Brown (to Peter): If in 2003 Israel had gotten intelligence about WMDs in Iraq and decided to invade and bomb the country into the stone age just to be on the safe side, you would’ve been all for it I bet.
Luigi Novi: And you base this counterfactual prediction on what, precisely? What statements or behavior on Peter’s part do you cite to form this assertion?
Rob Brown (Byrne was saying it would be okay to bomb the hëll out of an entire region, be it Dublin or be it some Middle Eastern nation, in order to kill terrorists and that killing innocent people who had nothing to do with those terrorists would be okay. You are saying the same thing. The fact that Byrne seemed to actually be enthusiastic about killing everybody associated with terrorists in any way, whereas you’re just rationalizing pretty much the same thing without seeming to take enjoyment from it, makes no difference to me.
Luigi Novi: The fact that you are unable to generate thoughtful analyses or recognize important differences between distinct things or people or statements, and dismiss the idea of even responding to such distinctions when they are pointed out to you, only reflects upon you. It does nothing to reflect upon me or Peter or Byrne. This is simply another example of you knowing that can’t refute someone’s argument, and thus using a shady tactic in response to it—in this case, pretending it bears some resemblance to a statement of your own fabrication with which it actually bears none.
Rob Brown As for banning me, don’t bother. I’ll show myself out, and I have no intention of coming back to post again.
Luigi Novi: So says every Internet churl incapable of intelligent discussion. Let’s see how long it takes before you do.
But don’t let your web browser hit you on the ášš on the way out.
Sabir: They have no where to go. Warning or no warning makes no difference.
Luigi Novi: Of course it does. If you’re in a house stockpiled with weapons, and you’re warned that it’s about to be hit, you get outside and run away from it.
Edward J. Cunningham: For all the people who are complaining this is all Israel’s fault (because, as you know it is ALWAYS Israel’s fault), I have this question—should the United States just “sit around and take it” if Canada or Mexico were to lob missiles at us?
Luigi Novi: I was actually thinking of my own counterfactual along these lines in response to this “they only killed five people” idea:
If Al Quaeda had managed, via say, theft of empty planes and properly evacuated buildings, to have only killed five people on 9/11, would it have been unreasonable to attack Afghanistan after the Taliban refused to turn them over? For that matter, only 6 people died in the ’93 bombing (though it injured 1,042). If the culprits were not the ones apprehended here in the States, but known to be harbored by the Taliban, just as it harbored bin Laden and Al Quaeda, would it have been wrong to go after Afghanistan then?
“Israel’s goal is to live in peace. Hamas’s goal is to destroy Israel.”
I’m sorry, but that’s just not true. How can you buy propaganda like that when you can see through the lies of the Bush administration?
The Palestinians are poor, they are starving, they are prisoners in their own country. The “artillery” you refer to consisted of home-made rockets that do more or less nothing. And they did this out of the desperation of a continuing blockade that has turned the entire Gaza strip into an utter nightmare, with šhìŧ flowing through the roads and barely any electricity.
How is a genocidal bombing campaign and a ground invasion even remotely justified in response to that? It’s like a conflict between a beggar throwing rocks and a tank.
“Israel’s goal is to live in peace. Hamas’s goal is to destroy Israel.”
I’m sorry, but that’s just not true. How can you buy propaganda like that when you can see through the lies of the Bush administration?
Which part isn’t true? That Israel doesn’t want to live in peace? Or that Hamas’s goal is to destroy Israel? Because the latter is in Hamas’s charter.
Are you claiming that if Hamas turned around, said it desired peace, rounded up terrorists, and created a cease fire that actually involved–y’know–ceasing fire, that Israel would rain down missiles on them or send in troops?
PAD
I’ve seen conflicting reports of whether or not it is Hamas behind the recent rocket attacks. Although it’d be easier for them to deny if they were actively helping the Israeli government track down any third parties. Then again, they’d be dámņëd by a lot of their own people for that. It’s a politically sucky situation all around.
Nonetheless, I’m glad Israel has switched to sending in troops. I think that’s a far better response, and one less likely to cause civilian casualties, than air strikes. I just wish they’d done it sooner (i.e., first.)
Rob: Oh yeah, and you have relatives there, so that makes any action Israel takes even more justified, because it ensures the safety of your relatives and their safety is more important than that of some stranger living in Iraq.
Or some stranger living in Palestine.
Frankly, yes. It’s human nature to care more about your own friends and family than strangers. You SHOULD care about your friends and family. If they’re in a position where they need to use deadly force to protect themselves, it’s perfectly reasonable to hope your family survives, even at the expense of another person. Saying they’re overreacting and don’t need to use as much force as is being used is a different question, and it’s possible to have a reasonable discussion about that issue. But the way you set up the discussion–“the safety of your relatives and their safety is more important than that of some stranger”– almost everyone is going to act according to that premise, whether they want to admit it or not. Frankly, if my relatives didn’t take that position when I was endangered, I would be kind of pìššëd.
Jonas: How is a genocidal bombing campaign and a ground invasion even remotely justified in response to that? It’s like a conflict between a beggar throwing rocks and a tank.
Genocidal? Really? You’re sure you’re not, you know, throwing around completely inappropriate words here, at all? You really think that Israel is trying to exterminate an entire ethnicity? They must really suck at it then, because this conflict has been going on for decades off and on, and they keep shooting away from civilians and telling the civilians too get out of the way. Kind of a crappy way to run a genocidal campaign, don’t you think?