So John McCain lampooned Obama for his lack of foreign diplomatic experience. Obama promptly scheduled a fact finding tour, and the press and foreign countries ate it up. Visuals of Obama sinking hoops with the armed forces while McCain looked decrepit riding around in a golf cart made the rounds of the media. The result? McCain is now bìŧçhìņg about the media’s love affair with Obama.
Sorry, Senator McCain. What you should have done was keep your mouth shut and not talk about Obama’s not visiting Iraq in several years until September, when it would have been too late for Obama to arrange a foreign sweep. Instead you enabled him to turn a liability into a plus. And since it was all your idea, I don’t really see where you get to complain about it.
PAD
• 
I’m not getting into fruitless semantic arguments with you, Mike — I have better things to do with my life. I wanted to add that data point to the discussion; having done that, I don’t intend to engage you any further.
TWL
I just asked a question.
Unless you are using referring and “specifically saying” as interchangeable terms, our data are completely compatible. But don’t let my not-being-wrong curb your personal urge curse at me now, Tim.
Mike, I wasn’t even saying you were wrong. I was adding new information to the discussion. Y’know, like normal human beings do in conversation.
TWL
Yeah, Tim, thanks for confirming it’s a wonder you felt the need to challenge what I say.
And this is HOW different from any other race over the last 40-50 years?
This is a true statement. For example this image (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/pspauld/BlogPix/image002-3.jpg) was on the official blog for a Republican state senator in South Carolina. Given that he’s not calling out McCain personally on this, I think it’s presumptuous for anyone to say that Obama was using the race card.
Posted by Peter David at August 1, 2008 08:31 AM
Obama didn’t get quite such a rapturous welcome in the UK, partly because “We can do it” is the motto for pre-school kiddy show “Bob the Builder” over here
I thought the motto was Bob saying, “Can we do it?” and the response from his crew being, “Yes, we can.”
That was before Bob’s PR firm looked at the polling results and decided he needed a snappier, pithier soundbite to win over the rusk voters…
Cheers.
Given that he’s not calling out McCain personally on this, I think it’s presumptuous for anyone to say that Obama was using the race card.
I’ll go along with that. The McCain camp was correct in noting that he brought race up, but it’s not really “playing the race card per se.”
Note to Mike: this is how rational discussion works. Different people add information, and several of them agree on a common conclusion.
When you’re prepared to do that, I’ll be happy to have a reasonable discussion.
TWL
…says he who refuses to waive the privilege to swear at someone for being right.
And maybe I heard wrong, but wasn’t Obama’s looks like money remark a response to the Paris/Britney ads? Those chicks are white.
The fact that even doing half of what Obama’s blueprint says he would do would bankrupt the nation I had no choice but to back McCain.
Well, I think it’s pretty safe to say that there’s a good chance we’re going to be bankrupt as a nation regardless of who gets elected.
I was shocked when I found out that not one of the Obama supporters that I know at work had read his Blueprint and couldn’t give any details about what he would actually do while in office
Welcome to politics in 2008. 😉
But, since you bring this up: what do your coworkers know about McCain’s positions?
Based on the ads I’ve seen, and the attacks his campaign is constantly making at this point in time, his platform has been nothing but discrediting Obama and that there is nothing else. Oh, and he’s a patriot.
One of the commercials/spiels I keep hearing about is that McCain is a war hero and Obama has no experience.
The only thing that stands out about McCain’s war record is that he failed badly and became a POW for a time. What did he do that was heroic?
{{un-named poster}}—Thanks for confirming to us that there is no point in reading your posts. Bye, now.
Challenging “{{un-named poster}}” has all the toughness of starting and losing a stared-down. Going out and making eye-contact with pedestrians for 3- or 5-seconds at a time will do you a world of good, Alan.
The latest one I heard that made me go WTF? is that apparently Obama is responsible for the current oil prices. Not OPEC, or years of 8 seater SUV’s getting 12 mpg while carrying 1 passenger. No, a 2 year junior senator has more personal responsibility for the current energy mess than a 20+ year senator.
My head hurts.
Has anyone considered the possibility that McCain doesn’t really want to win?
I know it’s absurd. It’s just that lately it really doesn’t seem like he could do any worse if he was trying. In the last few weeks I’ve seen him go wildly off message when asked about timelines, say that the Surge started 6 months before it actually did, redefine the Surge in a way that seems like it would make people question whether he actually knows what the Surge was, get the name of a country wrong three times, and other stupid stuff.
If McCain really was getting the same media coverage as Obama, it would be *horrible* for him. He’d be completely screwed if the media was reporting on this stuff as much as they report on what Obama says.
So sometimes I wonder if McCain is trying to throw the election. It reminds me of the scenes in “Brester’s Millions” where Richard Pryor invests in super risky deals, then blows his top when they actually make money.
I think they just aren’t making a big deal about anything that lowers expectations for him in the debates.
Democrats are polling 15% or 20% ahead of republicans, but McCain is still able to keep up with Obama. The boomers are too narcissistic to take leadership from someone younger. To them, if you claim a younger candidate is qualified for president, you may as well be saying to them he can walk on water — so McCain saying Obama isn’t supernatural is all these older voters need to hear to withhold their support of him.
Bladestar,
“What did he do that was heroic”
Declined to be released as a P.O.W. a few times, because A.) He didn’t want to be used as propaganda for the enemy and B.) He wanted other soldiers released.
Whether or not one intends to vote for McCain, I cannot see how anyone can view such a sacrifice for both his country and others as anything buy heroic.
Tim,
“A President is supposed to be popular”
No. A President is supposed to be a LEADER. He’s supposed to convince the people that his ideas are correct and wise, not simply cater to their wishes. Many things that were at first unpopular are now looked at differently.
He is also supposed to work with Congress to get these things done.
The failure of Clinton’s BIG Idea, national Health Care and Dubya’s last BIG Idea, Social Security Reform both failed because they could not convince a Congress controlled by THEIR OWN PARTY to take the political heat. Except for Welfare Reform – which Republicans embraced – Clinton never tried anything else that big again and Dubya’s Presidency hasn’t either.
“Democrats are polling 15% or 20% ahead of republicans, but McCain is still able to keep up with Obama.”
Most of the national polls are FIXED, to better reflect the desire for ‘status quo’ by the corporate media outlets that initiated them. Also doubt that most national polls are reflective of the potential new voters Obama has been attracting so far. It’s best to take them all with several grains of salt. 🙂
“Has anyone considered the possibility that McCain doesn’t really want to win?”
No, actually I think McCain wants to win quite DESPERATELY, which is why he’s now gone sleazy and negative.
However, I think with this recent shift in direction, the Mccain campaign has now pretty much GIVEN UP on attracting independants and former Hillary supporters. The new strategy seems to be hëll bent on shoring up support among the Rebublican extremists, while at the same time trying to discourage those political newbies supporting Obama from turning up at the polls in November.
KET
Most of the national polls are FIXED, to better reflect the desire for ‘status quo’ by the corporate media outlets that initiated them. Also doubt that most national polls are reflective of the potential new voters Obama has been attracting so far. It’s best to take them all with several grains of salt. 🙂
C’mon–virtually every poll, whether done by Tv stations, newspapers, or private pollers seem to be showing a close race. Why assume some conspiracy when it could just be, you know, a close race??? Why have these perfidous pollsters not just made up a 20 point McCain lead if they’re so hëll bent on lying?
This is the formula for Obama supporters to grab defeat from the jaws of victory–assume the win is in the bag and any evidence to the contrary is just media spin.
“C’mon–virtually every poll, whether done by Tv stations, newspapers, or private pollers seem to be showing a close race.”
Totally UNTRUE, Bill. Don’t generalize when you don’t have the facts on hand. “Virtually” is merely in the eye of the beholder, in this case, who’s PAYING for the polls in the first place.
“Why assume some conspiracy when it could just be, you know, a close race??? Why have these perfidous pollsters not just made up a 20 point McCain lead if they’re so hëll bent on lying?”
The media still NEED THE ILLUSION of a close race, so they can SELL newspapers, get ratings, etc, etc. And it’s ALWAYS been this way for quite some time.
Without controversy or suspense, this year’s election would likely be TOO BORING for most mass media outlets, since their normal focus is usually FIXATED on folks like Britney and Paris. Corporate media rarely focus on political issues anyway, unless they actually feel threatened by them.
KET
“This is the formula for Obama supporters to grab defeat from the jaws of victory–assume the win is in the bag and any evidence to the contrary is just media spin.”
Nahhh, because McCain’s camp has already been spinning that angle into ‘Obama’s arrogant’, yet another smear attempt at Obama’s grass-roots following. Merely look at Mccain’s latest viral ad, which even features Moses parting the Red Sea for Obama. It’s pretty ridiculous hysteria, overall.
KET
It sin’t Obama who I’m saying is getting arrogant–it’s his supporters.
If they really believe that the polls are only close because of media fixes they are more likely to stay home and less likely to send money. Wy not? It’s in the bag and any evidence to the contrary is just spin, relax, don’t worry, be happy.
I notice that Obama isn’t talking about how the polls are fixed.
Then does media coverage of McCain consist only of what Obama says about him, or their reactions to Obama?
The media loves Obama, but the baby boomers are too narcissistic to take younger leadership. “Bloo-bloo, my daddy came back from the war and didn’t pay attention to me. Now I have to give the country to reactionaries again because we can’t have Hillary. Bloo-bloo-bloo.”
If anyone has any actual evidence that the polls are intentionally fixed, that would be interesting. If someone just *feels* like the polls are fixed… please get back to me when there is some actual evidence. I’m not a jury member in “To Kill a Mocking Bird,” so I’m not interested in accusations of crimes based on a feeling.
As it is, there is some evidence that the polls may not be accurate, but not for malicious reasons. One problem is cell phones. Polling companies haven’t completely made the transition to the cell phone society that we live in now. Some of them are taking steps, but others aren’t so far along. Since young people are more likely to have *only* a cell phone and not a land line, Obama’s young supporters may not be accurately represented.
Another thing that’s messing with pollsters’ heads is that the “likely voter” model isn’t as useful as it is in most elections. Since a big part of Obama’s strategy is getting votes from people who traditionally haven’t voted, the pollsters aren’t really sure who is going to vote in November.
However, there is a real possibility that the polls are accurate. Democrats were polling higher than Republicans in 2004, also. However, when pollsters asked about any *specific* Democrat, the numbers were always lower than they were for Democrats in general. Support for the entire party isn’t a guarantee of support for a candidate.
“Then does media coverage of McCain consist only of what Obama says about him, or their reactions to Obama?”
Neither. Media manipulates the messages in order to suit THEIR agenda. And popular media opinion polls are designed to subversively MOVE THE SHEEP around on the playing field. It’s never really been about really engaging true public opinion, which in regards to US politics, is usually general APATHY.
Basically, what’s been happening in the last week or so is that McCain’s been stealing a page out of Obama’s playbook. Obama originally had framed this election as a referendum on George W. Bush, and now McCain’s campaign has since twisted it around to make the election a referendum on Obama. And since mass media these days THRIVES ON PERSONALITIES over true substance, they’re now following McCain’s lead on this agenda. It protects the status quo.
KET
“It sin’t Obama who I’m saying is getting arrogant–it’s his supporters.”
Wrong again. They’re just frustrated at having been marginalized for so long that when they’re challenged on their strength in numbers, some of them are bound to get too emotional at times. Nothing’s a done deal whenever there’s big money involved.
“I notice that Obama isn’t talking about how the polls are fixed.”
He doesn’t NEED to. He seems more interested in talking about the issues, instead of the idiot sideshows.
KET
“If anyone has any actual evidence that the polls are intentionally fixed,…”
You can do the research YOURSELF by merely looking at who sponsors them. Feel free to get back to me once you realize that most of them are NOT independantly funded.
KET
Sponsorship is not evidence of manipulating the numbers.
“Declined to be released as a P.O.W. a few times, because A.) He didn’t want to be used as propaganda for the enemy and B.) He wanted other soldiers released.”
So he failed and was captured, and was then too stupid to get away when he had the chance… kinda like his plans to stay in Iraq indefinitely…Still not seeing how he’s a “Hero”… then again, the word is so devalued these days that just about anyone can qualify as a “hero”….
“Sponsorship is not evidence of manipulating the numbers.”
You’ve never seen the Penn & Teller: BÙLLSHÍT episode about numbers and polls, eh?
I’ve only seen a little of Penn & Teller’s show. I like them as an act, but I find the show hard to watch because a lot of what they have to say is itself bûllšhìŧ. Their logic is often tortured and unsubstantiated.
As for polls, there are definitely problems with polls. I listed a couple of them myself and there are others. But what I said is true, just because it’s *possible* for the pollsters to skew things a certain way doesn’t mean they *are* skewing things that way.
Do networks like a tight horse race? Sure. But they also like it when the polls look credible, which is why the primary season made them reach for every excuse they could find when the polls didn’t work out right. So there are reasons why they might be messing with the numbers and there are reasons why they wouldn’t want to. Neither of those theoretical motivations is proof of anything.
Polls aren’t terribly reliable. No argument there. But accusing someone of purposely lying requires actual evidence. Evidence is a good thing. Without it you end up doing things like invading a country because someone *feels* like they’re going to attack us.
I used to think critical thinking, and I know that you can affect the results of a poll by how you phase the question or situation. For example, the “Pepsi challenge” wasn’t about whether people liked Pepsi or Coke better, but whether people could recognize Pepsi — but Pepsi commercials announced the results as “more people choose Pepsi.” On THE COLBERT REPORT, he lampoons this by asking guests if George W. Bush is a great president or the greatest president — with no other choices. And there’s a big difference between asking if government should have more business oversight to avoid another mortgage meltdown, or if government should be allowed to directly regulate businesses.
Bladestar,
“So he failed and was captured”
Do you regard all P.O.W.’s as having “failed”? How sad.
“was then too stupid to get away when he had the chance”
He put his country and other soldiers before his own interests. I call that a hero. It takes courage and principles to do that. You call it stupidity? What is wrong with you?
“kinda like his plans to stay in Iraq indefinitely”
These “plans” as spread by the media and Obama campaign are a blatant lie. We still have troops in Japan. We still have troops in Europe. That is all he was talking about when he mentioned his “100 years”.
And newspapers from San Diego to New York are finally realizing that we are now winning the Iraq war, so combat operations should gradually decrease. A huge part of the reason for that is the surge, which McCain pushed harder than anyone else in another act of courage. Do you think maybe the man might know what he’s doing? Or are you just determined to be angry?
You replied to my question as I mistyped it.
Then why does media coverage of McCain consist only of what Obama says about him, or their reactions to Obama (with which you claim they are trying to reframe Obama)?
I’m takng your reply of “neither” as a denial either is taking place, to which I can only ask, what is the media reporting about McCain then, if not what Obama says about him, or what McCain says about Obama? At least Obama is generating his own stories for his own campaign by picking up diplomatic cred. What is the media reporting McCain is doing?
In order for you to be right, Obama would have to be doing 10-15% better than he’s polling. That isn’t a casual departure from reality, and you’ve provided no examples to anything you refer to. I think it’s more likely you’re a McCain supporter trying to cut the alarm of Obama supporters rather than McCain has simply been keeping up with Obama, due to baby-boomers polling according to their antipathy to supporting a younger candidate.
Unless your orders are “Get captured!” then becoming a POW is a failure.
Staying a POW when you have a chance to leave is stupid. PERIOD
McCain is a warmonger and the last thing this country needs. Obama isn’t much better, but at least he recognizes “staying the present course” is a recipe for disaster.
We need a VIABLE third party candidate more than ever.
JamesLynch: I don’t know which Pepsi Challenge you took, but I recall being asked which one I liked better, that’s it. Being asked to identify which one was Pepsi would’ve stood out, because I don’t drink enough cola to be able to do so.
Dude, you’re an áššhølë. You think your imagination is something resembling adequate compensation for not experiencing something. All you’re doing is telling everyone who’s ever worn a uniform you’ve never taken a oath to place the US constitution above you’re own life. That you haven’t asked for anything other than what your country can do for you.
Yeah… nobody dislikes John McCain more than I do. Honestly. But busting on him for having been a prisoner of war is pretty dámņ low. While I think he utterly lacks convictions now, he certainly seemed to have some then.
Jerome Maida wrote: “These “plans” as spread by the media and Obama campaign are a blatant lie. We still have troops in Japan. We still have troops in Europe. That is all he was talking about when he mentioned his “100 years”.”
Yeah, I was pretty disappointed with Obama about how he used the “100 years” statement. I think Obama has backed off this somewhat. Not entirely, but he isn’t personally pulling out the 100 years thing as often.
Honestly, the only difference I can see in their Iraq policy is that Obama is setting a goal of withdrawal in 16 months and McCain wants to withdraw while keeping the timing secret. They both want to leave some force in Iraq afterwards, so that’s really it. Not that it’s an insignificant difference, with McCain making no timelines at all, there’s no way to hold him accountable and he may never pull out significantly while he’s in office. So I prefer Obama’s position, but it’s not as different from McCain’s position as some make it out to be.
Bladestar,
No one gives anyone orders to get killed, either. Are all those who die in war failures as well?
And staying a POW when you have a chance to leave because you place your country and your brothers in arms above yourself is an act consisting of courage, selflessness, honor, nobility and alove ot country and the ideals it’s founded upon and a belief that there are ideals that are important to uphold and things bigger than one’s self. Perhaps if you possessed these qualities, you would understand them.
Perhaps if he had been defending America instead of meddling in a foreign nation we had no business being in it would be noble…
So you’re making it about nobility? Well here’s your lesson: there is only one noble reason to be a soldier. It’s to demonstrate your fidelity to all other heroes. That’s it. That’s the one noble reason you can count on. All other reasons are vanity and self-service.
America will always have good people who give and then ask what else they can give. Sometimes they’ll even follow the chickenhawks, but they’ll still be there when the chickenhawks loosen their control over everything. Don’t be a soldier if you don’t want to be a soldier, and the country will still be ok.
But dumping on McCain for demonstrating a fidelity to a tradition of courage only shows you’re trying to think through what nobility is without ever putting something above yourself — and that ain’t ever gonna happen. Period. You can’t get there from where you are.
[\b]C’mon–virtually every poll, whether done by Tv stations, newspapers, or private pollers seem to be showing a close race. [b]
I don’t believe the polls are fixed by the media at all. But, I do believe the polls are skewed. I have a gut feeling that even though Obama has a slight lead in most polls, that when it comes to the actual votes, McCain will come out ahead.
Why?
Because I believe there are people who don’t want to appear racist so they say they are supporting Obama when they actually have no intention of voting for him. I don’t think they are racist people they just don’t support Obama for other reasons but don’t want to be seen as racist.
Because I believe there are people who don’t want to appear racist so they say they are supporting Obama when they actually have no intention of voting for him. I don’t think they are racist people they just don’t support Obama for other reasons but don’t want to be seen as racist.
I’m a little worried about Obama’s chances in November myself, but I don’t think this is a concern at all. Frankly, the number of people who are already saying in polls that they won’t vote for the black man is much higher than I think most of us would have expected; for better or worse, people are wearing their racism on their sleeve at this point.
I’m much more concerned that McCain’s latest hysterical smears– “Obama’s young! Just like Brittney and Paris! Do you really want a young person like Brittney or Paris running the country?” will be much more effective. There are a lot of people out there– liberals and conservatives alike– who have deluded themselves into believing the absolute worst about the youth culture, and I’m afraid that the fact that Obama is not, strictly speaking, of that culture will not dissuede them from fearing the younger candidate that the kids are all so excited about.
Scott wrote: Because I believe there are people who don’t want to appear racist so they say they are supporting Obama when they actually have no intention of voting for him. I don’t think they are racist people they just don’t support Obama for other reasons but don’t want to be seen as racist.
Historicly, racism in polls has worked differently from that. The people who didn’t want to appear racist put themselves down as undecided. There was a significant case of this several years ago where many polls showed black candidates doing well in their contests, 42% to 41% for example. Then the election would happen and the final results would be a loss of 42% to 58%. So every person who was saying they were going to vote for the black candidate actually did, but the undecideds really weren’t undecided.
Pollsters say they do more now to recognize conditions that make this kind of split happen and account for it. How good they actually are at that is unknown. We saw in the primaries that the margin of error should always be combined with the undecided vote, things really can swing that much.
Obama is THE guy who’s going to win. The guy already is doing wonders for our national image overseas. He didn’t give female German leaders uncomfortable shoulder rubs, didn’t mispronounce leaders names or sound like a hick, and it looks like Americans are not the only ones who are excited to have Obama in office. It would be great at this point to have a leader that is respected home and abroad again.
After Dubbya and his cronies driving our national stock into the çráppër, Republicans just need to sit down and shut their mouths. They screwed everything up so bad, that I dont understand how McCain can say that their Leadership for the last 8 years has been good for the country given the situation we are in right now.
But McCain is a example of a sell out to me. Now, if this was McCain from 2000-2003, I doubt Obama would be such a shoo in. Hëll, that McCain would be a possible running mate. But John either drank the cool aid, or he is intentionally underwhelming and giving mixed messages to screw over the same types that screwed him running against Bush.
Just my passing thoughts. Once again, it is great that Republicans are stuck because they cant get the guy on anything. Only thing I’m worried about are closet racists and the wack-jobs doing something to screw up Americas best chance at regaining some footing in the world.
Unless your orders are “Get captured!” then becoming a POW is a failure.
That is quite possibly the most moronic thing you have ever said.
PAD
Why is it nobody ever suggests McCain stayed a prisoner because he was cooperating with them. I know somebody out there thinks this. In fact, I’d say there are many who might think this. I’d bet they would say it if McCain was Black.
Pure success is complete your mission and get all your team home.
Success is complete your mission.
Failure is not complete the mission and/or get caught.
Pure failure is is not complete the mission and get your entire squad/platoon (whatever level unit you are acting in) killed/captured.
It’s not that difficult, but I’m so glad you are all veterans and “experts”.