He surprises you.
Vetoing a program designed to use a tax on cigarettes to provide health care for poor children? With reasoning that prioritizes the needs of huge health care companies over helping sick children?
Does he remotely think that ANYONE is going to be fooled into thinking that his motivations come from anything other than protecting big business interests over the interests of the most helpless sections of the population?
Yes…it’s a new low. And if Congress can’t override this veto, they’re fricking useless.
PAD
• 
Ben, Ben, Ben…the only good that will come out of this is another zombie movie review…
The advantage in maintaining a public system to intervene against violence and the destruction of life and property by fire and other disasters seems so obvious that only absurd reasons seem plausible in justifying dismantling them. Please provide yours before I provide those you’ve left me to infer from what you’ve said so far.
Mr. Mulligan, you are trying to seduce me.
Craig, maybe someday you’ll be generous enough to explain the virtue in you bestowing on me — under any sense of fairness — the privilege to tell you you have no çøjøņëš, when all I have to do to meet your challenge is dig out my high school diploma.
Michelle Malkin has begun stalking the family of the 12 year old kid who read the Democrats’ response to Bush’s veto. She’s showed up at their house and where his parents work in a desperate attempt to claim that they’re “wealthy”. Yep, harassing kids injured in a car accident.
Just when you think the wingnuts have hit rock bottom, they get out the jackhammers and start digging.
“Ben, Ben, Ben…the only good that will come out of this is another zombie movie review…”
I’d like to put in a request for the Hammer Films feature, The Plague of the Zombies. Not that I need the review for myself. I upgraded my VHS of that one to DVD some time ago. I just feel that this is an often overlooked zombie film that rarely gets the attention that it deserves. Yeah, I know… Voodoo zombies aren’t really your bag and all, but it’s a good zombie film nonetheless.
“Michelle Malkin has begun stalking the family of the 12 year old kid who read the Democrats’ response to Bush’s veto.”
Where’d you see/read this?
Well, I first heard it on the radio, but you can go to Michelle “Japanese internment wasn’t all that bad” Malkin’s blog. She proudly details her harassment there.
Or you can get some infor here:
http://thinkprogress.org/
Where’d you see/read this?
Stalking may be a bold statement but it seems to me that the point could have been easily made without getting physically involved. If the family, as some suggest, seems to have been more interested in investing in business properties than in health care, that’s a legitimate point. No reason to run around interviewing their neighbors. Yeah, I suppose once your kid delivers the national radio address of one of the major parties your claims become fair game but still…you aren’t going to score any points by being aggressive.
The Plague of the Zombies is a personal fave of mine as well–haven’t seen it in a long time though. As I recall, it was made at the same time as THE REPTILE and had some of the same cast and sets. Neither is top tier Hammer but that still puts them above most. The resurrection scenes were creepy as all hëll and I recall thinking that Romero may have gotten more from tis movie than is generally realized but I can’t remember why.
You know, while they waste everyone’s time remaking movies that were done just fine diddley dandy the first time–like STRAWDOGS and NEAR DARK–why not remake some of these old Hammer movies which could actually benefit from an updating? Wouldn’t mind seeing THE GORGON redone with better makeup effects either.
Then again, I’m the guy who can’t figure out why everyone doesn’t demand they bring back 3 strip technicolor. (I’m tempted to go get a High Def dvd player just because they have released SUSPIRIA in it’s “new and improved” form, thereby rendering my dvd as officially “old and lousy”.)
Police and firemen didn’t exist when our nation was founded; it was all done privately. Volunteers. It still can be (and should be) today.
Again, from Wikipedia: “In the United States, the first organized police service was established in Boston in 1838, New York in 1844, and Philadelphia in 1854. However, in the Founding Era, and even well into the 20th century in some parts of the country, law enforcement was done by private citizens acting as militia.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police
Yeah, I suppose once your kid delivers the national radio address of one of the major parties your claims become fair game but still…you aren’t going to score any points by being aggressive.
I’d like someone to explain to me the rules vis-a-vis when somebody crosses the line and becomes fair game (Not to Bill M: this is not directed personally at you. I just want to understand the rules). A few weeks ago, we were told that when Bush hides behind a four-star general (because his own credibility is shot) to sell his Iraqi war strategy, the general must be treated as if he has Christ-like infallibility. Any questioning that his report might be politically motivated is a disgusting attack on all of our service men and women.
But, a 12-year old kid who delivers (like politicians have never used kids as props before) a speech is fair game to have people confront his neighbors and the coworkers of his parents with questions about his family’s finances.
Oh, and just for the record, I personally thought the the moveon.org ad was stupid and over the top.
Police and firemen didn’t exist when our nation was founded; it was all done privately. Volunteers. It still can be (and should be) today.
I can see how a city of 12 million people like NY could operate with a volunteer police force. Yeah, that would work.
Maybe individual shopkeepers could hire Blackwater to guard their stores. That would make the city as safe as Iraq.
It sounds like you want firemen to show up at your burning house with buckets of water, armed vigilantes running loose accountable to no one who’s accountable to the vote, and Blackwater kicking the ášš of anyone who lets the sun set on him in the wrong neighborhood.
Never mind, Den. I went looking at MM’s website. I she and her regular posters hadn’t convinced everybody that they were loons before…
Just a few of the claims:
The Frost family has a combined annual income of about $45,000, said Bonnie Frost. She and her husband have priced private health insurance, but they say it would cost them more per month than their mortgage – about $1,200 a month. Neither parent has health insurance through work.
$1200 per month for a family of 6 in Baltimore. Really? What are they smoking?
A check of a quote engine for zip code 21250 (Baltimore) finds a plan for $641 with a $0 deductible and $20 doc copays.
Adding a deductible of $750 (does not apply to doc visits) drops the premium to $452. That’s almost a third of the price quoted in the article. Doesn’t anyone bother to check the facts?
Apparently not.
Cute. The best I could find at http://www.ehealthinsurance.com/ehi/Welcome.ds (which matches her posted $$$$ amounts) were plans for families of four that really didn’t cover that much when you looked at the details of each plan. Further, I have a sister-in-law in Baltimore and can tell you that they had a hëll of a time finding a good insurance plan that worked with their preferred doctors. It’s like my departments former dental coverage. It was described as “great” by the state, but almost no dentists in the area would accept it. Until I got my coverage changed, we were driving 40 minutes to see a dentist. And it was a lousy dentist to boot. If you can’t get a good doctor, then the cheap plan is practically worthless.
I also passed by the Frosts’ rowhouse. There was an “01 – 20 -09″ bumper sticker plastered on the door and a newer model GMC Suburban parked directly in front of the house. I’ve seen guesstimates of the house’s worth in the $400,000-plus range.
Wow. She’s seen “guesstimates” of the house’s worth. This is from the same post on her blog where she trashes others for their poor “reporting” in the mainstream media. I wonder if she’d think that guesstimates would be reporting of the highest standards if it was, say, MSNBC doing a piece on Bush or Cheney? Somehow, I doubt it.
One of her blog’s posters claims, “So again I say…SHENANIGANS!!!” Why? He went to monster.com and looked up what Mr. Frost said he makes VS what he must “really” make. The Frosts say that they make $45,000 a year. The poster claims that his crack research proves that Frost makes at least $60,370. I wonder if the idiot put in his own job description for his location as a comparison? I did. From what I did find there, I’ll never believe another thing that monster.com claims again.
I’ve got no problems with legitimate questions or reporting, but this tripe is shear speculation be paraded around as fact. The sad thing is, she’ll no doubt be on Hannity and Colmes this week to play all of this up as facts, it will become the “facts” reported by the RNM and then the “facts” will be used to smear the family.
“As I recall, it was made at the same time as THE REPTILE and had some of the same cast and sets. “
Yeah, it was. Anchor Bay even had a two disc set with both movies on it out a few years ago. Money was tight though, so I had to pass it up. Still, like I said, at least I have Plague on DVD and I still have the VHS of The Reptile.
Hey, about those remakes… Quatermass!!!! While I love Quatermass and the Pit, I wouldn’t mind seeing the others in the series updated by a good team. Oh, and X: The Unknown as well since it was meant to be a Quatermass anyhow.
And, who wouldn’t just love a Captain Kronos – Vampire Hunter series done by Danny Boyle, Guillermo del Toro or some equally adept unknown director with a good writing team and a good cast and crew?
Well, Jerry, according to thinkprogress.org, the Frosts paid $55,000 for their home 16 years ago. They state this as a “fact”, not a “guesstimate”. And they also state that at the time they bought the house, it was in a depressed neighborhood. Perhaps the neighborhood improved in the past two decades and the house’s value has gone up eightfold in value in 16 years. Even if that were true, that wouldn’t change how much they paid for it nor would it have any bearing on their ability to pay for their kids’ medical treatments. Unless Malkin is seriously suggesting that the way to pay for treatment for brain injuries is to sell your home.
The mention of the “01-20-09” is nice dig, too. It shouldn’t be shocking that a family who would volunteer to have their kid read a speech for the democrats are not Bush supporters, but in the wingnut world that Malkin operates in, that alone is considered proof that they family is lying about something.
“Police and firemen didn’t exist when our nation was founded; it was all done privately. Volunteers. It still can be (and should be) today.”
Uhhmmmmmmmm… No. I know “professional” cops that aren’t all that swift. We really don’t need the huge numbers of additional deaths, injuries, lawsuits and other problems that your idea would bring about. Besides, Professional law enforcement agencies are already lowering their hiring standards because they can’t get enough people to fill the ranks now. Take away the pay and benefits and you’re going to have even less people signing up to do the job.
Hey, I like my job and I do like helping others, but I won’t lie to anybody here. money does factor into it. You work at the agency that can pay you enough to live on. Lots of agencies don’t and lots more just barely do. I’ve known guys who loved their jobs but had to leave for private sector jobs because the salary just wasn’t cutting it VS their areas cost of living for raising a family.
Besides that, do you really want a bunch of rank amateurs running around your home at night with a gun, oc spray, a tazer and an asp baton if you have to call 911?
I can give you a better example…
Professional soldiers (ie. the U.S, Army) with its relatively minor number of stupid incidents VS Blackwater USA and like groups running around Iraq shooting at everything that moves or filming themselves driving down streets in Iraq and knowingly shooting at civilian targets (and later setting the film to rock music and posting it on the web.)
Sorry, Ben, but that’s just a mind numbingly dumb idea.
Huh, shoulda kept reading. Ben beat me to the Blackwater thing.
(Summons Kyle voice) You bášŧárd!!!!!!
Just to be clear. This whole section was from MM’s blog. My post dropped a tag or two.
_________________________________________
The Frost family has a combined annual income of about $45,000, said Bonnie Frost. She and her husband have priced private health insurance, but they say it would cost them more per month than their mortgage – about $1,200 a month. Neither parent has health insurance through work.
$1200 per month for a family of 6 in Baltimore. Really? What are they smoking?
A check of a quote engine for zip code 21250 (Baltimore) finds a plan for $641 with a $0 deductible and $20 doc copays.
Adding a deductible of $750 (does not apply to doc visits) drops the premium to $452. That’s almost a third of the price quoted in the article. Doesn’t anyone bother to check the facts?
Apparently not.
________________________
My response started with, “Cute.”
Next time I’ll have to remember my “” marks as well.
Den, I agree about the price of the hous then VS now. It was foolish to look at the value from today’s market rather then from when it was bought. I just found it funny that her whole point about the house was on “guesstimates” of its worth rather then actual worth while she attacks others for poor reporting and fact checking on a daily basis.
“Even if that were true, that wouldn’t change how much they paid for it nor would it have any bearing on their ability to pay for their kids’ medical treatments.”
Actually, that would have a bearing on the debate. It would go to the heart of the matter of fiscal responsibility by the parents. That’s likely why she and others will play up the current market value rather then the price that the home was bought for.
If I said that Ian’s medical bills were killing me and demanded better healthcare from the taxpayer while it came out that I sold my rather meager home for a $400,000 to $500,000 home after Ian’s birth… Well, I’d look stupid and maybe somewhat hypocritical. Now, if I bought a $55,000 home that was now worth that much… It means absolutely zip.
Den, they don’t need to hire anyone to guard their stores. Cops don’t do it now. They don’t prevent crime… they come in afterwards trying to look all professional. If for the first half of our history we were able to go without police, I am sure we can do it again.
Jerry, the reason they are having trouble recruiting is that people hate the police. Wearing the uniform makes you a target. And with good reason. Many police are fascist authoritarians with hard ons for shooting or tazing completely innocent people.
All right, Ben, put your money where your mouth is. Although, on reflection, I can’t see that working as there will likely be a huge disparity. And I’m not saying you don’t have the money, either. Next time you find yourself in a situation that could include but not limited to–
1)An intruder in your house,
2)Someone totals your car,
3)Your fondue set decides to make your house blazing hot,
4)You fall down your stairs and break several limbs,
5)Your child swallows rat poison,
6)You pull into a parking spot being eyed by an overtired truck driver looking for donuts with a sawed-off on his gun rack behind him,
or anything otherwise determined to be an emergency, DON’T CALL 911. But you’re so clever and witty, and you have such a firm grasp of reality, that you’d know just what to do in any of those situations. In fact, according to your thinking, 911 shouldn’t exsist at all.
Now, for more serious stuff, I’m embarassed to say the only Hammer film I own is The Satanic Rites Of Dracula. WIth my favorite holiday, my birthday, and my wedding anniversary at the end of the month, I’m hoping to expand that soon. BTW, if you’re given the opportunity to see Children of The Living Dead, run screaming down the block. Never seen worse audio dubbing.
I’d like someone to explain to me the rules vis-a-vis when somebody crosses the line and becomes fair game (Not to Bill M: this is not directed personally at you. I just want to understand the rules). A few weeks ago, we were told that when Bush hides behind a four-star general (because his own credibility is shot) to sell his Iraqi war strategy, the general must be treated as if he has Christ-like infallibility. Any questioning that his report might be politically motivated is a disgusting attack on all of our service men and women.
Den, I’ve come to appreciate your passion for your beliefs but I would hardly categorize the people who criticized the anti-Petraeus MoveOn ad as believing that he should be “treated as if he has Christ-like infallibility”.
Further, I have a sister-in-law in Baltimore and can tell you that they had a hëll of a time finding a good insurance plan that worked with their preferred doctors. It’s like my departments former dental coverage. It was described as “great” by the state, but almost no dentists in the area would accept it. Until I got my coverage changed, we were driving 40 minutes to see a dentist. And it was a lousy dentist to boot. If you can’t get a good doctor, then the cheap plan is practically worthless.
I don’t know…I’d still prefer a health insurance that didn’t give me everything I wanted to none at all.
I also passed by the Frosts’ rowhouse. There was an “01 – 20 -09″ bumper sticker plastered on the door and a newer model GMC Suburban parked directly in front of the house. I’ve seen guesstimates of the house’s worth in the $400,000-plus range.
Wow. She’s seen “guesstimates” of the house’s worth. This is from the same post on her blog where she trashes others for their poor “reporting” in the mainstream media. I wonder if she’d think that guesstimates would be reporting of the highest standards if it was, say, MSNBC doing a piece on Bush or Cheney? Somehow, I doubt it.
Jerry, in all fairness, you should have quoted the very next line: “Those are high.” She’s saying that the house didn’t look that expensive to her (of course, without knowing what houses in the neighborhood go for, that’s useless. I’ve seen shacks in Aspen going for a cool million).
I still don’t think it was a smart move on her part but her account actually is more fair to the family than I’d expected.
Hey, about those remakes… Quatermass!!!! While I love Quatermass and the Pit, I wouldn’t mind seeing the others in the series updated by a good team. Oh, and X: The Unknown as well since it was meant to be a Quatermass anyhow.
And, who wouldn’t just love a Captain Kronos – Vampire Hunter series done by Danny Boyle, Guillermo del Toro or some equally adept unknown director with a good writing team and a good cast and crew?
Your excellent taste in movies will more than make up for any political disagreement we ever may have, for I am a man who knows his priorities.
CAPTAIN KRONOS-VAMPIRE HUNTER (one of the great titles) would have been terrific if the lead actor didn’t seem more interested in the male vampires than in Caroline Munro…then again, this is another movie I need to revisit. Kronos seemed a bit foppish to me but after seeing ROB ROY I have a new appreciation for how cool a killer fop can be.
Hey, how about VAMPIRE CIRCUS?
Den, they don’t need to hire anyone to guard their stores. Cops don’t do it now. They don’t prevent crime… they come in afterwards trying to look all professional. If for the first half of our history we were able to go without police, I am sure we can do it again.
Jerry, the reason they are having trouble recruiting is that people hate the police. Wearing the uniform makes you a target. And with good reason. Many police are fascist authoritarians with hard ons for shooting or tazing completely innocent people.
Ben…you just crossed the line into crazy.
Ignoring the fact that Jerry is a cop and you’ve just personally insulted someone who was engaged in a perfectly reasonable discourse with you, the notion that police deserve to be “targets” is just nuts. Sorry if you’ve had a bad experience with cops but that doesn’t make wild assertions any more plausible.
I don’t know if there’s much point in responding to the other points but…A-I don’t know that things were so great without cops that we’d want to go back to it. Seems like there was a lot of murder and mob justice in places that didn’t have much in the way of an official law force. The country was also radically different. A nation of mostly farmers, spread out far and wide is hardly compatible with the situation of cities with millions of people.
For the first half of our history, the most modern computing device was the Jacquard loom. I don’t see how you haven’t just given me the privilege to tell you to get off your computer.
Ben, are you being held hostage by people coercing you to post patently stupid things to the internet? If you aren’t free to answer, post your social security number and your mother’s maiden name, and we’ll invite a volunteer send help.
…and you would remove all their accountability to the voters.
> I was on free lunch at school because my mther couldn’t afford to send in the money for our food.
Interesting. Living here in ‘socialized’ Canada, my family moved around when I was very young and I went to school in a very small town, in a mid-sized one and, most recently (OK 30 years back) in a mid-sized city. Yet I don’t recall grade school, junior high or even high school having ‘free lunches’. We all brought ours from home or bought them from the cafeteria. Must have been another Canada that’s not on the map?
>Every parent should make sure they save up enough money to pay for several years of chemo therapy in the event that their kid gets cancer before they even think of having children.
How can they when they’re too busy saving up for the hideous post-secondary tuition fees?
>Thing is, life tends to be a little fickle. Sean already pointed out above the situation he was in. I once watched layoffs drop a family of four with a pretty good six figure income down to being a family of four with about $30,000 a year coming in to live off of.
As Bill Myers correctly pointed out, there are many people who DO know their financial situations are not up to the task, but don’t care. Even here in Canada, a liberal such as myself knows and freely admits there are people such as an unmarried young woman (early-mid 20s?) who made the news when it was seen she was cranking out babies because it meant more welfare cash for her. This is NOT a good thing.
>Jerry, the difference between a private doctor and an all powerful central state should be obvious.
More expensive for one.
>Are you telling me I was irresponsible for believing my boss’s promise or thinking my job was secure?
If so, that puts you up there with me. True, I didn’t have a wife – pregnant or otherwise – at the time, but I remember being let go a couple of weeks before Christmas by a boss who’d been promising me a raise (any time now…). Just as well, though. My replacement lasted less than a month before she walked, and her replacement wound up administering a sound thrashing to boss when he tried to cheat him out of threee days’ pay. Goes to show sometimes being let go isn’t such a bad thing if it leads to prompting one to find better down the line.
“Are you telling me I was irresponsible for believing my boss’s promise or thinking my job was secure?”
Absolutely not. In fact, you sorta prove the point about this whole discussion. One, you were responsible parents, having looked at your current situation, saw good things for the future, and decided it was a good time to start planning a family.
Then, the bottom fell out of your future. SCHIPS wasn’t around then, but had it been, it might have been something you’d have looked into. Chances are you’d at least have qualified for some assistance under it.
It just goes to show that, just because a family is struggling, that doesn’t make them irresponsible. Best laid plans and all that.
At the same time, the couple that’s already on assistance, struggles to pay rent every week, wonders where the next paycheck is coming from, and decides to have children…or at least not use any kind of contraception…yeah, them I still think of as irresponsible. And it’s hard to imagine a middle-class family having the means to provide for 10 children.
I just want to look at Ben’s masterpiece as a whole (or maybe “hole” would be batter) before commenting.
“Jerry, the reason they are having trouble recruiting is that people hate the police. Wearing the uniform makes you a target. And with good reason. Many police are fascist authoritarians with hard ons for shooting or tazing completely innocent people.
Wow, the idiocy grows at a staggering rate…
Ben Lesar: “Jerry, the reason they are having trouble recruiting is that people hate the police. Wearing the uniform makes you a target.”
You might want to actually do some research when declaring things like that unless you enjoy looking foolish. Police agencies all over have been encountering hiring difficulties for several reasons. Chief amongst them in the early part of the 2000’s (and carrying over up until now) is that many of the people who would have joined their local police department when that came of age signed on to the military after 9/11. This continued to be a problem as well as (as happened with four of our guys and several others I went through academy with) lots of guys who went into police work straight out of military service were still in the window to be called back into service to be sent to Iraq, Afghanistan or Guantanamo.
Money is also a factor. Hanover County Sheriff’s Office pays great in this area, but their harder then hëll to get into right now. Lots of people go there when they get the chance. Even Richmond PD and the State Police lose officers to Hanover because of the pay issue. on the other side of the coin, Petersburg pays just about the worst in the area. They can’t keep anybody new these days. Lots of other agencies are kind of in between.
The problem with in between is that it only pays but so well. The “average” cost of living rate for just the necessities in my area and the surrounding areas is about $35,000 by the last estimate. Most the local departments pay around $28,000 to $33,500. It becomes a little bit like teaching in that it’s something you really have to want to do or at least be able to cut corners enough to live off the pay.
And money is the thing that most the guys I know quit their departments or their careers over more then anything else. Hëll, we even had a guy quit so he could go back to Iraq to work as a firefighter under that deal where you get $100,000 tax free for staying there a year. With his wife having to stay at home with their first child due to special needs and a second kid on the way, he was just getting to deep into the hole $$$$ wise.
As for people hating the police… Some do and some don’t. Thing is, your idea falls apart when you look at a) how many people do like the police and b) take a look at some of the large departments around the country that have lowered their hiring standards to address their shortages. When you leave the Extreme Far Left Camp, you can actually meet a lot of people who like their local police officers. Strange to your mind it seems, but true nonetheless. And if you look at where the standards have been lowered to allow things like having a set maximum of past felony convictions rather then no felony convictions, you’ll see that the people joining the departments are the people that are supposed to “hate” the police.
Ben Lesar: And with good reason. Many police are fascist authoritarians with hard ons for shooting or tazing completely innocent people.”
Oh, wait, you do enjoy looking foolish. Been listening to a Randi Rhodes marathon in your Ipod this weekend? Hey, do the idiot thing and cry about how the put 50,000 volts into somebody. People just sound so dámņëd funny when they do that to anybody who actually knows what’s being discussed.
Most all cops are just regular guys. Lots of cops are liberals on top of that. Do we get the odd idiot who slips past the screening that likes to go on power trips or abuse the authority? Yeah. And we all work really hard to weed them out during training or get rid of them as soon as they want to show their stupidity on the job.
As for tazers… Well, you’re obviously a king sized idiot, so explaining the ins and outs of training, the benefits of the tazer or any of the actual facts about tazers would only sail right over your head. Likely like the rest of this post did.
Sean: “Now, for more serious stuff, I’m embarrassed to say the only Hammer film I own is The Satanic Rites Of Dracula.”
Well, that’s what you get for wasting all that money at the dog track. I told you that myth about the dog “going” before the race was just silly. Still, that’s hardly an excuse. Your IQ is hereby docked 50 points until you’ve added at least three more Hammer films to your collection.
Bill Mulligan: “I don’t know…I’d still prefer a health insurance that didn’t give me everything I wanted to none at all.”
I agree, but I’ve seen a few plans for my area that are so bare bones as to practically be nothing themselves. If all I could have afforded was to waste the money on a plan that I could almost never use or or that barely covered me VS trying to set aside money and pray for the best… It might be a tough call depending on the plan and the level of my finances.
Bill Mulligan: “Jerry, in all fairness, you should have quoted the very next line: “Those are high.””
No, in all fairness in this case, it was irrelevant. MM was playing an old trick that she and others love to play. She threw out the high number to get it into everybody’s head and then added her quick line about that being high. If you read the posts from her readers, that number is now a fact to them. It’s not the first time she or others have employed that trick. It’s like the old saw about everybody hearing that you were accused/charged of a crime, but nobody seems to remember you being cleared of the crime. she knows that throwing out that high number will make it stick in peoples minds, so her then saying that it was a high number means nothing.
Bill Mulligan: “… (of course, without knowing what houses in the neighborhood go for, that’s useless. I’ve seen shacks in Aspen going for a cool million).”
It’s not even that. As Den touched on, it’s what the house was bought for that counts. My house has doubled in its estimated value since I purchased it five years ago. That’s in part to work done on it and in part to what’s going on around my area. Still, that’s nothing to my friends situation. He paid just shy of $90,000 for his house about eight years ago. It was in a quiet little out of the way place where no one really went. He had to drive 40 minutes to get to work, but he was fine with that until gas went crazy. He’s looking to sell now. Because the area near him built up so much and his area started taking in a number of people who were moving toward the newer jobs in Richmond, his immediate area has grown substantially and become a hot little real estate location. He’s been told by the broker that a $360,000 price tag is almost guaranteed to sell his house before the year is out. I’d believe it. Smaller, less nice homes near hs have sold for more then that in the last year.
Bill Mulligan: “Hey, how about VAMPIRE CIRCUS?”
Good one, but I haven’t seen it in as long as you make it seem that you haven’t seen Kronos. I’ll have to dig around for that one somewhere.
bobb alfred: “And it’s hard to imagine a middle-class family having the means to provide for 10 children.”
One day, my girlfriend was talking with a new caseworker in what was then her department (Foster Care & Family Reunification). The newbie expressed the opinion that the poor have just as much right to procreate as anyone else, and that no one has the right to tell them otherwise.
My girlfriend turned to a veteran coworker and asked her, “How many children do you have?”
The veteran coworker replied, “Four.”
My girlfriend then asked, “How many would you have had if money wasn’t an issue for you and your husband?”
The veteran coworker replied, “Seven. Maybe eight. I love kids.”
The newbie had such an epiphany that she looked as though she’d just seen the face of God.
Ben Lesar: “Den, they don’t need to hire anyone to guard their stores. Cops don’t do it now. They don’t prevent crime… they come in afterwards trying to look all professional.”
Just because crime occurs despite the existence of police doesn’t prove they “don’t prevent crime.” I suspect we’d have a lot more crime if we had no police.
Ben Lesar: “If for the first half of our history we were able to go without police, I am sure we can do it again.”
You would be wrong. Back in the day, there were fewer guns available. Those that were available were far less powerful than those monsters crooks get their hands on today. International terrorism on the scale of 9/11 wasn’t an issue back in 1776. It is now. Things change. Those who don’t adapt, perish.
Ben Lesar: “Jerry, the reason they are having trouble recruiting is that people hate the police.”
Speak for yourself. I don’t hate ANYONE I don’t know. In fact, I try not to hate anyone I do know.
Ben Lesar: “Many police are fascist authoritarians with hard ons for shooting or tazing completely innocent people.”
Define “many.” Seriously. How many police use unjustified force each year? Give me a number. And how do you know the force was unjustified? Give me evidence. If you can’t, you are farting out of your mouth.
I have been trying to avoid expressing negative emotions in my posts of late. It just doesn’t seem productive. But Ben, you’ve insulted Jerry Chandler, who happens to be one of my best friends as well as a police officer. Jerry is one of the most moral, ethical, compassionate, and thoughtful people I know. You, on the other hand, appear to be unintelligent, unpleasant, uneducated, and an asshat.
You know, I thought I’d just come back here and enjoy myself. But there’s always got to be a šhìŧ like Ben Lesar in the mix, doesn’t there?
Den, they don’t need to hire anyone to guard their stores. Cops don’t do it now. They don’t prevent crime… they come in afterwards trying to look all professional. If for the first half of our history we were able to go without police, I am sure we can do it again.
Well, you’ve just demonstrated that you truly don’t understand how complex our society has become due to the increase in population and technology. You’re comparing a time when the worldwide population was about 1/2 billion to today, when it’s 6.5 billion. Seriously, how would this “volunteer” police force work in a city like New York today? Would “volunteer” forensic technicians collect fingerprint and DNA evidence and analyze them in “volunteer” labs? Would “volunteer” detectives conduct interrogations of suspects, and if so, what standard of conduct would they follow? Should “volunteer” detectives be allowed to use waterboarding to get confessions or should they skip the sissy stuff and go completely medieval on them? Should “volunteer” DA’s prosecute cases presiding over by “volunteer” judges who sentence convicts to prisons guarded by “volunteer” prison guards?
Look up the crime statistics of even a medium-sized city in the US and then tell me where all these “volunteers” would come from and how they’d have to the time for all this “volunteer” work and still work their full-time jobs.
Jerry, the reason they are having trouble recruiting is that people hate the police. Wearing the uniform makes you a target. And with good reason. Many police are fascist authoritarians with hard ons for shooting or tazing completely innocent people.
And now you’ve just demonstrated that you’re a troll. Shrouded.
Den, I’ve come to appreciate your passion for your beliefs but I would hardly categorize the people who criticized the anti-Petraeus MoveOn ad as believing that he should be “treated as if he has Christ-like infallibility”.
Well, we can agree to disagree on that point. Certainly, the message sent from the masters of the manufactured outrage was that anything Petraeus said was automatically considered above reproach.
In any event, I’d still like to know when a person crosses that line and becomes fair game for criticism.. My point is that Michelle Malkin was one of the people on the forefront of screaming about how mean ole’ moveon.org was picking on Petraeus and then she goes and starts harassing the relatives and coworkers of the Frosts in order to dig up dirt on them. I realize that intellectual honesty and consistancy is an unreasonable standard to expect her to uphold, but I try.
Re: Volunteer police. It would only work in a world that doesn’t need police. Why did it for a fledgling country? As Den points out, fewer people. Less crime overall. Here’s another thought…fewer guns, yes, but more guns per capita. Maybe put a better way, a higher % of homes that had guns in them. Sure, you could try to rob someone’s home…but chances were, that homeowner had a weapon lying around, and a decent chance he’s a good shot with it.
An all-volunteer police force would only work now in a world with very low crime. Because in a high-crime world, you can’t have part-time, unpaid cops that have to worry about getting back to their paying job enforcing the law for you. Now replace cops with any other social service provided by the government. Sure, those functions could be provided by private groups…but then you’d have no control or accountability over how they do their jobs. Maybe you pìšš øff the company president, and he issues orders to not respond to your house if you call. There’s nothing that prevents personal discrimination by a private entity in this country.
“One day, my girlfriend was talking with a new caseworker in what was then her department (Foster Care & Family Reunification). The newbie expressed the opinion that the poor have just as much right to procreate as anyone else, and that no one has the right to tell them otherwise.”
This captures a point of this issue well. While I think it’s irresponsible of any person to plan to bring children into the world when they don’t have the means…or (for clarity) the apparant means, misfortune notwithstanding…to provide for those children, I don’t also think that such irresponsibility should be legislatively prevented. While I think we’d eliminate a good number of the social ills we face today if we made parenting a licensed, regulated practice, I find that level of social control to be opposed to the concept of a truly free society. Or one that even resembles a free society.
“Craig, maybe someday you’ll be generous enough to explain the virtue in you bestowing on me — under any sense of fairness — the privilege to tell you you have no çøjøņëš, when all I have to do to meet your challenge is dig out my high school diploma.”
So… you want me to show my balls to your high school diploma?
Can anybody help me out? I need some “Mike-speak” interpretation here.
Ben Lesar: “Den, they don’t need to hire anyone to guard their stores. Cops don’t do it now. They don’t prevent crime… they come in afterwards trying to look all professional.”
Bill Myers: “Just because crime occurs despite the existence of police doesn’t prove they “don’t prevent crime.” I suspect we’d have a lot more crime if we had no police.”
Well, it also goes to show that he doesn’t understand one of the reasons that community policing succeeds for so many departments or how increasing your police officers presence in high crime areas often works in part because it acts as deterrent.
One thing police do is look for suspicious activity that would indicate criminal activity may be about to happen. One time, I went up to question a guy about looking into several cars on Grace Street and discreetly pulling the car door handles late one evening. he took off running. When another officer and I stopped him, it turned out that he was off his meds, believed that his ex-wife (who we learned in court didn’t even exist) had hired people to kill him and was looking to hide in the back seat of a car. Oh, and he was armed with two large butcher’s knives and a pocket knife. I wonder what would have happened if the owner of some car got in and started driving off? No, no crime was prevented there, Ben.
One guy I know spotted to guys heading down to a strip mall late one Sunday evening with a couple of large, empty (or so he thought) backpacks. seemed odd as the strip mall didn’t have any businesses open after 6 PM on Sundays. He followed at a distance, saw them go behind the mall and waited a few minutes for them to come out the other side of the parking lot. When they didn’t, he drove around the back and discovered them starting to have a go at the outside wall of one of the stores with metal mallets. No… No crime was prevented there. Nor did he in any way take on the function of guarding the stores I the area.
We had a large Mall with a number of higher end stores built out in Short Pump a few years back. The first order the police had from the locality? Keep heavy patrols in the area and drive through the mall’s parking lot after hours to show an active and regular police presence. The reason? To, and you can say it with me, Ben, prevent crime by acting as a deterrent to the local scumbags.
What Ben doesn’t know about police work could likely fill several large bookshelves worth of books. This fact of life obviously isn’t a deterrent to Ben from proving that fact though.
bobb alfred” Because in a high-crime world, you can’t have part-time, unpaid cops that have to worry about getting back to their paying job enforcing the law for you.”
Well, yeah… If you wanted to give the simple, obvious answer rather then the complicated, long winded examples I did.
Sheesh… I gotta start remembering to think smaller and simpler more often.
~8?\
“Ignoring the fact that Jerry is a cop and you’ve just personally insulted someone who was engaged in a perfectly reasonable discourse with you, the notion that police deserve to be “targets” is just nuts. Sorry if you’ve had a bad experience with cops but that doesn’t make wild assertions any more plausible.”
Bill, I am not the one making wild assertions. First, I did not personally insult anyone. Bashing an occupation *in general* is not personal. Especially when you don’t know the person you are talking to is in that field. If someone on this blog said that many politicians are crooks and someone else happened to be a politician, would that be a personal insult? If someone happens to take it personally that is not my fault. Second, I did not use the word “deserve” anywhere. That is a moral claim; I was referring to a logical one. Which is why I used the term “and with good REASON.” That said, I regret using the ambiguous word “many,” as I have no idea how many police are actually like that. It was late and I was in a hurry.
Sean, you are creating a straw man. I didn’t say I don’t think anyone should provide services to deal with such problems; just that government shouldn’t. Either private business or charity (often both) are reasonable alternatives in those cases.
“Most all cops are just regular guys. Lots of cops are liberals on top of that. Do we get the odd idiot who slips past the screening that likes to go on power trips or abuse the authority? Yeah. And we all work really hard to weed them out during training or get rid of them as soon as they want to show their stupidity on the job.”
Ever heard of the Milgram Experiment or the Stanford Prison Experiment? They prove that “regular guys” when given the power to do whatever they want… often do whatever they want.
“You would be wrong. Back in the day, there were fewer guns available. Those that were available were far less powerful than those monsters crooks get their hands on today. International terrorism on the scale of 9/11 wasn’t an issue back in 1776. It is now. Things change. Those who don’t adapt, perish.”
This is the most common and fallacious argument in favor of totalitarian dictatorship. “We are living in a post-9/11 world. 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11…”
“Speak for yourself. I don’t hate ANYONE I don’t know. In fact, I try not to hate anyone I do know.”
Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said I hate anyone. I said “people” hate the police. It is a generalization to indicate there are many who do hate the police. It was obvious it was not intended to mean everybody. After all, police are people too, and unless they are all self-hating and their families hate them too clearly not everyone hates police.
“You, on the other hand, appear to be unintelligent, unpleasant, uneducated, and an asshat.”
Bill (Mulligan), what Bill (Myers) just said, that is a personal insult, and a baseless one at that.
Den uses the same logic as Bill Myers in defending the modern “police” state. I assume you are both against the War in Iraq? How does it feel to be using the same (faulty) logic as George W. Bush?
Anyway, a note to all: I am not for anarchy. I am not proposing vigilante justice in place of police. I am proposing volunteers in place of professionals. An appointed volunteer sheriff of sorts for each community. In addition to neighborhood watch groups. Personally I don’t care how New York or other big cities want to deal with crime; if they want large police organizations that is their business. But the way things are now personal responsibility goes to the wayside and people refuse to defend themselves or their neighbors because our philosophy is that government should take care of it. That is destructive to society. If people in big cities aren’t interested in forming close-knit communities (all that is required for volunteer law enforcement to work even in a “post-9/11” world), I will be fine with that as long as the rest of America is allowed to deal with its own law enforcement.
Ben Lesar: “Wearing the uniform makes you a target. And with good reason.”
I read this in haste the first time, and missed the full implications.
Now I’m beyond pìššëd. My blood is boiling.
Did you, Ben Lesar, you little fûçk, just imply that police DESERVE to be targets? That people like Jerry, who have a wife, a kid, an extended family, and friends who care about them are “targets” — and with “good reason?”
Let me tell you something about Jerry. He’d sooner put himself in harm’s way than to unnecessarily harm another human being.
He’s also one of the most giving people I know. Even though we’ve never met in person (although Jeannie and I will be swinging by his pad, among others, when we take our road trip in 2008), when he found out I was having a rough time at work he reached out to me and offered his support. It meant a lot.
Jerry has also told me about a cop who had to kill someone in the line of duty. It was justified beyond a doubt. Nevertheless, he had trouble shaving after that — because he literally couldn’t bear to look at his own reflection in the mirror.
He left the force.
So don’t you DARE tell me that there is EVER a good reason why my friend, and his fellow police officers, should be targets just because they wear the badge.
Has it occurred to you that the news reports you see about bad cops are the exception and not the rule? Because, y’know, most cops have careers that are too “boring” to make the news. They do their jobs without using excessive force or abrogating people’s rights, and that doesn’t make for good T.V. news ratings.
I’m betting the answer is “no,” it hasn’t occurred to you. Because you are an unrepentant, irredeemable and snotty little çøçkšûçkër.
Ben Lesar: “Bill (Mulligan), what Bill (Myers) just said, that is a personal insult, and a baseless one at that.”
You’re half right. I insulted you, but it was anything but “baseless.”
That said, you’re just trolling now and I have no further time for you.
Ben Lesar, there’s a fundamental problem with your suggestion that we replace professional, public police services with volunteer or private police services: your system is still going to filled by people, no? What makes you think a volunteer/private police group is going to be able to do the job of a public force any better?
And by better, I mean the obvious things: less crime rate, more crimes prevented, etc. Also some less obvious things: fewer incidents of excessive/unecessary force, smaller rate of mistaken arrest, etc.
Just how, exactly, are these replacement services going to avoid the same pratfalls that happen now? You’re own examples of the Milford and Stanford prison experiments demonstrate that power abuse isn’t something unique to police officers, that maybe there’s some inherant to human make that certain personality types will succumb to the tempations of power when given the opportunity?
The fact is, if your force is voluntary…assuming you have a means to avoid the problem of finding people with enough free time and financial security to not have to work for a paycheck to give you enough bodies for such a private force…you don’t have any stable chain of command. And with a private force, you have no accountability. You have no means to prevent discrimination in any real sense. Without public oversight on some level, you have a system increasingly vulnerable to graft and corruption, one where those with money will have protection, while those without will suffer and be left to fend for themselves.
What you propose is possible. But not favorable over the system we have. Do we have some examples of bad eggs within the ranks of the police? Sure we do. But suggesting that some rare, albeit very public, examples of power abuse is no reason to suggest trashing a very effective and fair system.
Using that logic, we should abandon our current two-parent system for child rearing. After all, with the inevitable child that’s left trapped in a car that dies during the summer, it’s apparant that two parents cannot raise children safely. Or maybe we should dump the requirement for child seats, as maybe the solution is to allow the child to wander around, thus be more likely to be spotted in the car?
You assume that the current system is broken because some loud-mouthed kid gets tasered in the middle of a prank he was pulling in a very public forum. Or because a few cops get out of control during the excerise of their duties. Your replacement suggestion would leave us more vulnerable to those kinds of events than the one we have now.
Posted by: Jerry Chandler
You might consider health-care savings accounts (whatever the precise name is – HSA?) in which you, essentially, become your own insurer. As i think i understand it, you save money (tax free) in the account, and meanwhile carry catastrophic-illness insurance with a high deductible. For routine medical costs, you tap the HSA. For bigger stuff, you have the insurance, but with like a $1000 deductible…
Posted by: Den
What i find hilarious about the whole “Betray Us” thing is that editorial cartoonist Jeff Danziger used exactly the same play on words in a nationally-syndicated cartoon (showing grunts on the ground sayoing to the general as he left for Washington “General, don’t betray us”) and no-one said anything.
Posted by: Ben Lesar
Which, since Jerry has mentioned numerous times that he is a cop would tend to confirm an apparently generally-held opinion around here that you’re a troll who hunts for places to spew your ignorant (used in the precise meaning of “not knowing anything about the subject”) rants.
And “bashing an occupation *in general* is not personal”? So if i say that Texas politicians are know-nothing right wing megalomaniac chicken-hawk draft-dodging/ deserter ideologues (based on the most prominent example of a “Texas” politician currently available) i’m not insulting Texas politicians who aren’t (if there are any since Anne Richards’ death)?
Generally advanced by people on your apparent side of the discussion.
Proving, once again, that you have no concept of how society works.
Have you ever watched the dynamics of volunteerism on such a scale?
Having watched any number of volunteer/co-operative organisations in action, i see it as a general rule that the more important/influential the organisation, the more likely it is to be co-opted by organised extremist groups.
This is because such groups’ members make it a point to join such organisations in numbers out of proportion to their actual representation in the community, vote as a bloc in choosing objectives, and are less l;ikely to get bored and fall away. (In fact, they actively hope that others *will* fall away.)
In the case of “volunteer” policing, i can easily see Marxists, the KKK and other such groups – of the left or the right – using such tactics. This is how the {!GODWIN ALERT!} Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (DAP) [German Workers Party] was reconstituted as the National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP) [National Socialist German Workers Party] (generally known as the “Nazi Party”), and its original organisers [themselves members of the Thule Society (a right-wing organisation itself)] forced out.
[Here in the Atlanta area, i’ve seen at least three community/”alternative” newspapers run as co-operative/volunteer organisations taken over by anarcho-socialists or marxist groups, and a community-funded non-commercial FM station taken over by people who over time changed it from being genuinely representative of the community in general to pandering to the interests (as perceived by people in ideological blinkers) of a limited subset of the community.]
Posted by: bobb alfred
Well, of course it will, just look at non-governmental police/security organisations like Blackwater for proof.
I mean, Ben understands that it’s not like it’s necessary to apply minimum standards of mental and physical health and professionalism on people who want to be cops…
[sarcasm mode off]
Prior to the formation of Scotland Yard, London had the Bow Street Runners, a semi-official police force who were the best cops money could buy.
And often did.
People rather like Ben resisted the formation of a professional police with “arguments” rather similar to his. Horrible consequences to the liberty of the people were foretold.
The result?
While freely acknowledged as less than perfect in some ways, Scotland Yard is widely regarded as one of the best police forces in the world, an example for others.
=====================
Oh, yeah, in my previous post, i forgot to mention the way that the revolution touched off by the Mensheviks, who were fairly moderate, was co-opted by the Bolsheviks, who were later co-opted by Lenin and Trotsky (one of whom was murdered in exile) and in turn subverted by Stalin.
And we can all see how wonderfully *that* came out.
Or (on the level of personal experience, rather then observation or history) the way that an Atlanta SF club’s newsletter became a vehicle for its editor’s personal vendetta deriving from the Atlanta SF WorldCon, leading to schism in the club… (Kathleen prolly remembers that one.)
Ben Lesar: “Ever heard of the Milgram Experiment or the Stanford Prison Experiment?”
Yes, I have heard of them. And if you’re using them to show how professional police who are basically regular guys “when given the power to do whatever they want… often do whatever they want,” you should think about how much worse things would be without the psychological screening, training, supervised on the job field training, testing, annual/semi-annual re-certifications, monthly and annual evaluations, etc. Your point cuts your argument apart far more powerfully then it does mine.
Ben Lesar: “This is the most common and fallacious argument in favor of totalitarian dictatorship.”
No, you just missed the point (big surprise). Today, as just one example, Chesterfield County’s population is somewhere between 290,000 to 316,000 people in an area of 446 square miles of land. At the time of its founding in 1749, it had only a few hundred people at best. Can you sorta see the dif between a couple of part time LEO’s working an area with that small a population, and mostly made up of farmers and whatnot, VS trying to police 316,000 people 24/7?
Ben Lesar: “Den uses the same logic as Bill Myers in defending the modern “police” state. I assume you are both against the War in Iraq? How does it feel to be using the same (faulty) logic as George W. Bush?”
I don’t know. How do you feel about displaying so plainly for all to see that you haven’t the first clue what you’re going on about?
Bill Myers: “Now I’m beyond pìššëd. My blood is boiling.”
Thanks, but just let that one slide for now. Like I said when we were all debating Imus and the usage of racial epitaphs; something said to you by an idiot or someone you don’t care about really should be meaningless and powerless against you. I’ll point out when Ben is displaying ignorance of my profession or just plain suggesting completely idiotic ideas as “answers” to the problems out there, but I’m ignoring remarks like that. That remark simply proved that Ben is an idiot and therefore has no true power to insult. He’s a laughable fool. No reason to get your blood pressure up just yet.
But, beyond that… Thanks for the kind words.
Bobb, that there is no chain of command is what gives them the accountability. Right now police protect their own and the common citizen can do nothing as the courts protect them too. Volunteer law enforcement would be authorized by consent. If someone abuses their authority that consent is taken away. Therefore they have no real power and are less likely to try to abuse it. Power corrupts.
“Which, since Jerry has mentioned numerous times that he is a cop would tend to confirm an apparently generally-held opinion around here that you’re a troll who hunts for places to spew your ignorant (used in the precise meaning of “not knowing anything about the subject”) rants.”
Mr. Weber, you jump in with no idea what you are talking about and call me ignorant? Did you not even bother to read how police were first brought up? Here’s a hint: it wasn’t by me. I was asked why I support police and firemen but not other socialized services, and answered that I don’t support them and explained why.
“Generally advanced by people on your apparent side of the discussion.”
And yet… my “side” isn’t the one using it. Again, who is the ignorant one?
As far as the NSDAP is concerned: they came to power through government.
Blackwater is a fascist (in the literal sense) organization. They are hired by the government, not by the consent of the people they are “protecting,” to kill people and break things.
Again, those are government forces at work. Early American militias never did anything like that.
Jerry, I’ve already addressed your first argument when responding to Bobb; they would have no “real” power. Our own history, and history in general, shows that this works.
“That remark simply proved that Ben is an idiot and therefore has no true power to insult.”
Calling someone an idiot doesn’t make it so. Whenever anyone has a belief that is radical by today’s standards, nevermind that it is the historical norm, is this how you respond? And you wonder why people consider police to be narrowminded authoritarians that don’t tolerate dissent…
Ben, and I know this is likely a total waste of time, the system changed because the system:
A) Didn’t work that well to begin with except in the minds of those who think that “the way we used to do it” was always better then it really was.
And…
B) Even where it was working to some degree or another, the population growths made the old system useless. The new system was put into place to fix the failings of the old.
Ben Lesar: “Bobb, that there is no chain of command is what gives them the accountability.”
Yeah… That’s, to be very kind, really stupid. It was those set ups in the past that lead to graft, bribery and abuses of power where the wealthy or the crafty screwed the poor or the innocent into the ground. No chain of command also leads to really stupid decisions by those that need the chain of command most. It also, despite your… ideas… leads to absolutely no true accountability whatsoever.
Ben Lesar: “Right now police protect their own and the common citizen can do nothing as the courts protect them too.”
You know what would be a really nice change of pace for you, Ben? How about you take your head out of your assumption ridden left wing propaganda sites and reading materials for a while and join us in the real world of facts. Most police officers dislike anyone who tarnishes the badge. We try and get rid of that person. We had two guys in my academy that several of us were trying to get booted after about three weeks of being around them. As it was, it took less then a year for their own department to get rid of them once they were out on the street. And judges hate crooked cops.
Do you get news stories these days about what you’re talking about? Sure. But only a handful of them are legit and they’re not representative of the majority of police officers out there. And even then, many of those are actually based more on the press and the public having no understanding of adrenalin & reflexive firing and absolutely no knowledge whatsoever about a tazer or how it really works.
Ben Lesar: “Wearing the uniform makes you a target. And with good reason.”
Bill Myers: “Now I’m beyond pìššëd. My blood is boiling.”
Me: “That remark simply proved that Ben is an idiot and therefore has no true power to insult. “
And this leads to…
Ben Lesar: “Whenever anyone has a belief that is radical by today’s standards, nevermind that it is the historical norm, is this how you respond? And you wonder why people consider police to be narrowminded authoritarians that don’t tolerate dissent…”
Oooooookay. You’re a… funny… guy, Ben. Too bad it’s not in the “ha ha” kinda way.
(Backs slowly away from Ben…)
Ben, and I know this is likely a total waste of time, the system changed because the system:
A) Didn’t work that well to begin with except in the minds of those who think that “the way we used to do it” was always better then it really was.
And…
B) Even where it was working to some degree or another, the population growths made the old system useless. The new system was put into place to fix the failings of the old.
Ben Lesar: “Bobb, that there is no chain of command is what gives them the accountability.”
Yeah… That’s, to be very kind, really stupid. It was those set ups in the past that lead to graft, bribery and abuses of power where the wealthy or the crafty screwed the poor or the innocent into the ground. No chain of command also leads to really stupid decisions by those that need the chain of command most. It also, despite your… ideas… leads to absolutely no true accountability whatsoever.
Ben Lesar: “Right now police protect their own and the common citizen can do nothing as the courts protect them too.”
You know what would be a really nice change of pace for you, Ben? How about you take your head out of your assumption ridden left wing propaganda sites and reading materials for a while and join us in the real world of facts. Most police officers dislike anyone who tarnishes the badge. We try and get rid of that person. We had two guys in my academy that several of us were trying to get booted after about three weeks of being around them. As it was, it took less then a year for their own department to get rid of them once they were out on the street. And judges hate crooked cops.
Do you get news stories these days about what you’re talking about? Sure. But only a handful of them are legit and they’re not representative of the majority of police officers out there. And even then, many of those are actually based more on the press and the public having no understanding of adrenalin & reflexive firing and absolutely no knowledge whatsoever about a tazer or how it really works.
Ben Lesar: “Wearing the uniform makes you a target. And with good reason.”
Bill Myers: “Now I’m beyond pìššëd. My blood is boiling.”
Me: “That remark simply proved that Ben is an idiot and therefore has no true power to insult. “
And this leads to…
Ben Lesar: “Whenever anyone has a belief that is radical by today’s standards, nevermind that it is the historical norm, is this how you respond? And you wonder why people consider police to be narrowminded authoritarians that don’t tolerate dissent…”
Oooooookay. You’re a… funny… guy, Ben. Too bad it’s not in the “ha ha” kinda way.
(Backs slowly away from Ben…)
Ben, and I know this is likely a total waste of time, the system changed because the system:
A) Didn’t work that well to begin with except in the minds of those who think that “the way we used to do it” was always better then it really was.
And…
B) Even where it was working to some degree or another, the population growths made the old system useless. The new system was put into place to fix the failings of the old.
Ben Lesar: “Bobb, that there is no chain of command is what gives them the accountability.”
Yeah… That’s, to be very kind, really stupid. It was those set ups in the past that lead to graft, bribery and abuses of power where the wealthy or the crafty screwed the poor or the innocent into the ground. No chain of command also leads to really stupid decisions by those that need the chain of command most. It also, despite your… ideas… leads to absolutely no true accountability whatsoever.
Ben Lesar: “Right now police protect their own and the common citizen can do nothing as the courts protect them too.”
You know what would be a really nice change of pace for you, Ben? How about you take your head out of your assumption ridden left wing propaganda sites and reading materials for a while and join us in the real world of facts. Most police officers dislike anyone who tarnishes the badge. We try and get rid of that person. We had two guys in my academy that several of us were trying to get booted after about three weeks of being around them. As it was, it took less then a year for their own department to get rid of them once they were out on the street. And judges hate crooked cops.
Do you get news stories these days about what you’re talking about? Sure. But only a handful of them are legit and they’re not representative of the majority of police officers out there. And even then, many of those are actually based more on the press and the public having no understanding of adrenalin & reflexive firing and absolutely no knowledge whatsoever about a tazer or how it really works.
Ben Lesar: “Wearing the uniform makes you a target. And with good reason.”
Bill Myers: “Now I’m beyond pìššëd. My blood is boiling.”
Me: “That remark simply proved that Ben is an idiot and therefore has no true power to insult. “
And this leads to…
Ben Lesar: “Whenever anyone has a belief that is radical by today’s standards, nevermind that it is the historical norm, is this how you respond? And you wonder why people consider police to be narrowminded authoritarians that don’t tolerate dissent…”
Oooooookay. You’re a… funny… guy, Ben. Too bad it’s not in the “ha ha” kinda way.
(Backs slowly away from Ben…)
Ben, and I know this is likely a total waste of time, the system changed because the system:
A) Didn’t work that well to begin with except in the minds of those who think that “the way we used to do it” was always better then it really was.
And…
B) Even where it was working to some degree or another, the population growths made the old system useless. The new system was put into place to fix the failings of the old.
Ben Lesar: “Bobb, that there is no chain of command is what gives them the accountability.”
Yeah… That’s, to be very kind, really stupid. It was those set ups in the past that lead to graft, bribery and abuses of power where the wealthy or the crafty screwed the poor or the innocent into the ground. No chain of command also leads to really stupid decisions by those that need the chain of command most. It also, despite your… ideas… leads to absolutely no true accountability whatsoever.
Ben Lesar: “Right now police protect their own and the common citizen can do nothing as the courts protect them too.”
You know what would be a really nice change of pace for you, Ben? How about you take your head out of your assumption ridden left wing propaganda sites and reading materials for a while and join us in the real world of facts. Most police officers dislike anyone who tarnishes the badge. We try and get rid of that person. We had two guys in my academy that several of us were trying to get booted after about three weeks of being around them. As it was, it took less then a year for their own department to get rid of them once they were out on the street. And judges hate crooked cops.
Do you get news stories these days about what you’re talking about? Sure. But only a handful of them are legit and they’re not representative of the majority of police officers out there. And even then, many of those are actually based more on the press and the public having no understanding of adrenalin & reflexive firing and absolutely no knowledge whatsoever about a tazer or how it really works.
Ben Lesar: “Wearing the uniform makes you a target. And with good reason.”
Bill Myers: “Now I’m beyond pìššëd. My blood is boiling.”
Me: “That remark simply proved that Ben is an idiot and therefore has no true power to insult. “
And this leads to…
Ben Lesar: “Whenever anyone has a belief that is radical by today’s standards, nevermind that it is the historical norm, is this how you respond? And you wonder why people consider police to be narrowminded authoritarians that don’t tolerate dissent…”
Oooooookay. You’re a… funny… guy, Ben. Too bad it’s not in the “ha ha” kinda way.
(Backs slowly away from Ben…)
I have to say this. I don’t think Ben is a troll, nor that he meant to insult anybody. Nor is he ignorant. What he is is deeply entrenched in an ideology, in his case I suspect its Liberterianism.
Talking with people like that (is ideoloigized a word?) — Libertarians, anarchists, communists, evangelicals(?), some feminists, conspiracy theorists(?) — is at the same time fascinating and annoying, and usually goes around in circles.
They start by asking good interesting questions –what is wrong with the world? how can it be fixed? — it is good to question reallity. But the answers they provide seems to come from a very theoretical, very schematic, very closed and undisputed body of work developed by a group of respected ideologues. And everything they encounter seems to fit very neatly into those theoretical structures. These structures provides very clear explanations and the answers to the ills of the world, and it is only because of the blindness and conformity of the majority of the population that they don’t get it. And until they do, it is up to this in group of people in the know the keep the truth alive.
So when Ben was talking about police he was not talking about Jerry, but about schematic theoretical image of a police as it fits into his ideology — a cop is a totalitarian fascist tool of the government, period. Private or volunteer cops are not. It’s as simple as that. You can no more argue with that than remove a chemical element from the periosdic table.
I have nothing to add to what already be said on the specific issues, nor is there much point.
I highly recommend Ursula la Guinn’s Dispossessed about an anarchist society, and Heinlein’s the Moon is a Harsh Mistress for a Liberterian society. The former is more critical of the society it describes..
This is the most common and fallacious argument in favor of totalitarian dictatorship. “We are living in a post-9/11 world. 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11…”
Generally advanced by people on your apparent side of the discussion.
I’m not sure what you think Ben’s “side” of the discussion is. I’m finding this POV fairly unique outside of some of my old radical hippy friends and even they have mellowed with age and repeated muggings.
I did not use the word “deserve” anywhere. That is a moral claim; I was referring to a logical one. Which is why I used the term “and with good REASON.”
Well, here’s how I see it: when you state “Wearing the uniform makes you a target. And with good reason. Many police are fascist authoritarians with hard ons for shooting or tazing completely innocent people.” it seems to me that a perfectly reasonable interpretation of that is that the police are justifiably targeted because of the tendency of many to kill and harm innocent people. Saying that targeting cops is a reasonable thing to do but not a moral thing to do seems to me to be a distinction without a difference.
Whatever points you could make about the desirability of this strict libertarian view of how things ought to be, using attacks on police as a springboard isn’t the way to go about it. I think the idea of an all volunteer and/or charity force replacing government is unworkable and undesirable but there could be a good discussion on it. I think that’s been lost.
Bill, I tried to ask Ben to explain how his all-volunteer police would work. He ignored it in favor of saying I was using “authoritarian” arguments, which is totally laughable.
It’s time to stop feeding the trolls.
Ben, there’s some news today you might want to check out from Chicago…the police Special Operations Section has been disbanded because it was essentially corrupt and abusing it’s power. That’s a public service group, by they way.
Meanwhile, Blackwater, which is immune to prosecution under Iraqi and presumably American law, is free to kill and terrorize the very people they are paid to protect the interests of…if not the people themselves. Blackwater isn’t likely to be disbanded any time soon, so far as anyone can tell. By the way, Blackwater is a volunteer/private force, meaning every single member elected to join up for that specific job.
A volunteer force would serve by the consent of the people? Does this mean that our police would be subject to elections? How does that work? You can’t really fire volunteers, can you?
What you suggest is a semi-organized vigilante force, which works only so well as that force doesn’t fracture. Once those fractures begin…and history proves that they will happen…you’ll end up with competing vigilante forces, which really is just one small step away from pretty much repeating most of world history’s most significant wars and conflicts.
On a small scale, especially where survival is a daily struggle, what you suggest works great. Once you get past that, though, and amass a sizeable civilian population, it falls apart.