It has been decided by British high command that Harry will not, in fact, be shipping out to Iraq with his troops.
Good move.
Harry should be focusing his attention on places where he can really be of use…such as combating Lord Voldemort.
PAD
It has been decided by British high command that Harry will not, in fact, be shipping out to Iraq with his troops.
Good move.
Harry should be focusing his attention on places where he can really be of use…such as combating Lord Voldemort.
PAD
• 
you are a rude, rude man to say that about our prince. then again, I made some tasteless remarks several years ago about another royal’s accident so I can’t blame you.
I think it’s for the best that Harry Pothead stays out of a combat zone.
I was really split on this the last few months. I admired that he didn’t want any special treatment and that he wanted to be with his men in the thick of it. On the other hand, his status as a royal made him a target unlike any other soldier in Iraq and made his men’s danger level jump up one-thousand fold.
Harry chose a noble course of action that should be respected. Those who had the power to ultimately make his decision for him made the right decision for the safety of his men as well as for him.
Not really much to nitpick here.
So my taxes have gone to training the guy, taking a place that perhaps someone who could have done the job could have done, but he can’t use that training because, guess what? Being a soldier is dangerous! There’s actually people who’d want to shoot at him!
“you are a rude, rude man to say that about our prince.”
Actually, I was just making a joke. But I saw some coverage and comments from British writers that was absolutely vicious, stating uncategorically that Harry had no business even thinking about putting himself into Iraq and that it was selfish and inconsiderate of him to do so. Personally I don’t share that opinion; I thought it was commendable of him to want to serve his country in such a constructive manner.
PAD
It’s probably for the best, I was having flashbacks to what happened to Napoléon Eugène, Prince Imperial of France. He joined up to fight in the Anglo-Zulu war and was killed even though they were trying to keep him safe–it was pure bad luck, the Zulus had no idea who he was.
man 1:I was in africa, playing cards with the natives.
man 2; Zulus?
man 1: No, I usually won.
man 1:I was in africa, playing cards with the natives.
man 2; Zulus?
man 1: No, I usually won.
man 1:I was in africa, playing cards with the natives.
man 2; Zulus?
man 1: No, I usually won.
sorry – couldn’t stop myself.
sorry – couldn’t stop myself.
sorry – couldn’t stop myself.
Oh, Shaggy, No Scooby treats for you, son!!!!
Look, Harry still has more character FOR preparing to go than Bush who wessled out. I also have some British friends who hope the throne skips Charles and William anyway, they just like Harry better.
Yes, Peter you are correct, Harry should be getting ready for the final battle with Voldemort. After all we’ve been waiting almost a decade for it.
We are amused!!!
“Look, Harry still has more character FOR preparing to go than Bush who wessled out. I also have some British friends who hope the throne skips Charles and William anyway, they just like Harry better.”
And he will be the first King Henry since Henry VIII.
If they hadn’t given press releases on where he was going to be, he probably would have gone with out a problem. When he finishes his tour is when you hype the crap out the fact that he went.
mike “shaggy” g— hanging’s too good for you.
Bill Mulligan – and yet, I’m hung!
ba DUM-dum!
I’ve got a million of ’em!
Bill Mulligan – and yet, I’m hung!
ba DUM-dum!
I’ve got a million of ’em!
Bill Mulligan – and yet, I’m hung!
ba DUM-dum!
I’ve got a million of ’em!
PAD: cracking jokes that wouldn’t have been funny 30 years ago.
PAD: cracking jokes that wouldn’t have been funny 30 years ago.
Of course, nobody’d heard of Voldemort yet 30 years ago. And neither Harry had been born yet, for that matter… 😛
-Rex Hondo-
Ha! Very good, PAD, I had just said the same joke to my wife!
The noise you’re hearing is the Black Prince turning over in his grave.
Jerry Chandler: “Harry chose a noble course of action that should be respected.”
Well, not exactly. The situation was explained to him some time ago – that his presence in the field would increase the danger to his troops and reduce security. His initial reaction was that he wanted to go and insisted on going, and would hold his breath and resign his commission if they didn’t let him go. After all, he didn’t think he would have a successful military career without service in Iraq, and he apparently felt that overbalanced the danger in which it put his troops. His military superiors wavered for a while and finally decided that, no, he shouldn’t go. He has apparently given in and stopped threatening to resign his commission. Wouldn’t any other non-titled junior officer have been threatened with court martial for refusing orders? I doubt it’s all that easy for an ordinary person just out of Sandhurst to walk away from military service when the bad old generals won’t let him go where he wants.
I’m glad Cornet Wales is willing to obey his superiors, but it doesn’t seem like such an extraordinary thing to simply follow lawful orders.
man 1:I was in africa, playing cards with the natives.
man 2; Zulus?
man 1: No, I usually won.
Man 1 was Davy Jones and Man 2 was Mickey Dolenz when they did this bit in the middle of “Gonna Buy Me a Dog”, the last song on the first Monkees album.
Still a fan,
George
man 1:I was in africa, playing cards with the natives.
man 2; Zulus?
man 1: No, I usually won.
Man 1 was Davy Jones and Man 2 was Mickey Dolenz when they did this bit in the middle of “Gonna Buy Me a Dog”, the last song on the first Monkees album.
Still a fan,
George
Such a fan apparently, that I have to post it twice.
Sorry.
The song so nice, you mentioned it twice.
Well, not exactly. The situation was explained to him some time ago – that his presence in the field would increase the danger to his troops and reduce security. His initial reaction was that he wanted to go and insisted on going, and would hold his breath and resign his commission if they didn’t let him go.
Actually, I was talking about the choice to enter into the military and to serve with his comrades through thick and thin way back before this became an issue. Although, I didn’t have too great an issue with his recent stand either. Like I said, I knew that his presence would make his unit a bigger target, but my understanding is that some of his guys were fine with that. I was split on which would be the better option because neither one stood up and screamed “right” or “wrong” with giant neon subtitles for the extra thick.
well spotted george – altho the joke is an old standard it was used in that song – I use the same song in my puppet show with a cat playing Mickey and a dog playing Davy.
well spotted george – altho the joke is an old standard it was used in that song – I use the same song in my puppet show with a cat playing Mickey and a dog playing Davy.
well spotted george – altho the joke is an old standard it was used in that song – I use the same song in my puppet show with a cat playing Mickey and a dog playing Davy.
Posted by Jeffrey Frawley at May 17, 2007 07:18 AM
“Well, not exactly. The situation was explained to him some time ago – that his presence in the field would increase the danger to his troops and reduce security. His initial reaction was that he wanted to go and insisted on going, and would hold his breath and resign his commission if they didn’t let him go. After all, he didn’t think he would have a successful military career without service in Iraq, and he apparently felt that overbalanced the danger in which it put his troops. His military superiors wavered for a while and finally decided that, no, he shouldn’t go. He has apparently given in and stopped threatening to resign his commission. Wouldn’t any other non-titled junior officer have been threatened with court martial for refusing orders? I doubt it’s all that easy for an ordinary person just out of Sandhurst to walk away from military service when the bad old generals won’t let him go where he wants.
I’m glad Cornet Wales is willing to obey his superiors, but it doesn’t seem like such an extraordinary thing to simply follow lawful orders.”
Hmm.. I don’t think he was so much worried about not having a successful military career as that he had a valid – though emotionally expressed – point about “why let me in the army if I can’t fight”
Also, with respect, arguing what would apply to others is a slightly specious argument. The crux of the problem here is that he is a Royal, so any other officer wouldn’t be faced with this problem…
The military is pretty much a mandatory option for the Royal Family, and so long as ‘the heir’ is safe ‘the spare’ should be allowed to take his chances, just as Andrew did during the Falklands conflict.
I understand his troops were quite happy to take any additional risks, so stopping him going is very much a political decision, based significantly – I suspect – on mitigating the bad PR that would come of a Royal getting killed in an unpopular war.
For me, he should have been allowed to go.
Cheers.
It seems to me that if his presence increases the danger to his troops without in some way improving their military efficiency it is a simple decision. His seeming desire to advance his military career at the expense of his troops seems rather caddish. It’s nice that his troops were willing to take on the added risk: friendly, loyal or brave – all good things; Those officers tasked with conducting the war were correct to act in the troops’ and the general war effort’s best interests.
As to the matter of judging Harry differently because he is a Royal, he knew he was before he joined up, so there are no rude shocks here.
Wasn’t he trained as a tank commander? How the heck, wearing that big helmet and visor, not to mention sitting inside a freaking tank, would anyone have recognized him? Maybe there’s some English law requiring heraldry on a royal vehicle. I don’t know. Seems there’d be a really good chance that he’d be no more and no less a target than any other officer or uniform serving afield.
Although I can imagine the parade of paparazzi vehicles trailing his tank might have given him away at times.
Kidding aside, can’t the military keep any secrets these days?
“Wasn’t he trained as a tank commander? How the heck, wearing that big helmet and visor, not to mention sitting inside a freaking tank, would anyone have recognized him? Maybe there’s some English law requiring heraldry on a royal vehicle. I don’t know. Seems there’d be a really good chance that he’d be no more and no less a target than any other officer or uniform serving afield.”
I think the concern is that his unit will be trageted more because of his involvement, and there is no way from makng the unit he’s in secret, since people can recognize his face. Although I don’t know if the risk to the unit is that much greater, since I assume other units are targeted too.
In another time maybe he would have worn a disguise, like Henry V.
“His seeming desire to advance his military career at the expense of his troops seems rather caddish.”
Obviously he’s not concerned about his career. It’s not exactly like he’s risking unemployment.
He’s in a loose loose situation. If he stays safely behind while his friends risk their lives he looks bad. If he goes and they are put in even greater danger he looks bad. Had he not joined the army he would have looked bad too.
I think if this were a more conventional war they would have let him go. But when what you do is patrol and being targeted all the time, hi presence makes the risk for his unit greater.
But he should be commended both for wiling to take the risk himself and for having the support of his troops.
“there is no way from makng the unit he’s in secret, since people can recognize his face”
But that’s the thing…aside from when he’s on base, how are people going to know that “oh, there goes Prince Harry’s tank”?
But that’s the thing…aside from when he’s on base, how are people going to know that “oh, there goes Prince Harry’s tank”?
Would that not be a target for an insurgent group to keep an eye on? For propaganda purposes?
His seeming desire to advance his military career at the expense of his troops seems rather caddish.
On the other side of the coin, maybe he simply wishes to serve with his men and face the same danger that they will face.
Hey, I’m no expert on the Royal Family, but everything I’ve seen of Harry would lead me more to the idea that he has some feelings of loyalty to “his men” rather then the idea that he’s looking to polish his career background at the risk of other soldiers’ lives. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think I’m closer to right then your statement.
“Would that not be a target for an insurgent group to keep an eye on? For propaganda purposes?”
Totally…but it’s one thing to say “keep an eye out for Harry,” and quite another to know which helmet-clad, visored down tank crew is Harry’s, and which is just Commander Smith’s. Tank Commander in Iraq has got to be a little like being a pilot, I imagine. You’re pretty anonymous once you get in your gear and into your vehicle.
It just seems to me that his actual increased vulnerability because of his identity isn’t really all that big a deal.
I think it is best for a junior officer to follow any lawful order. If he hadn’t whined about leaving the Army if he weren’t allowed to go where he wanted I wouldn’t think so poorly of him. Please, anyone with experience of the British Army inform me: Is it at all permissible for a junior officer early in his term of service to A. walk away if he doesn’t get the duty he prefers; or B. complain to the press about his superiors’ orders? I suspect any other officer who flouted military discipline could expect a rather poor review.
If he hadn’t whined about leaving the Army if he weren’t allowed to go where he wanted I wouldn’t think so poorly of him.
Yeah Jeffrey, how dare he demand to got with his unit to Iraq and actually demand that he be allowed to serve in combat with them rather then being treated like a china doll and kept safe at home. What a little whiner he is.
He didn’t seem to have learned anything about the chain of command and the obligation of a soldier to obey lawful orders. Right or wrong, his superiors believed it was in the best interest of his unit that he do what he was told. A soldier who will not follow orders is unfit to be a soldier. All of the attention to what he wanted to do and what he would be happiest doing, and what he thought should be ignores his obligation to conform to military discipline. If some corporal under him had said, “Cornet Wales, sir, I would just feel so much happier and more fulfilled if I drove the tank today. I don’t want Corporal Jenkins to drive. I will be with the lads, and doing a good thing, and I know better than you who should be driving the tank, beg your pardon, sir” I doubt he would think that free thinking was called for. So much of the discussion has focused on his desires, but they are irrelevant. Perhaps his upbringing didn’t prepare him to respect superior authority.
He didn’t seem to have learned anything about the chain of command and the obligation of a soldier to obey lawful orders.
And here comes Jeffrey, with the throw from left field…
Last I checked, he isn’t going to Iraq. He isn’t telling his superiors where to stick it, he’s going no matter what, etc etc.
He was outspoken about not wanting to be treated differently, and you accuse him of not obeying orders?
Ðámņ, I think any military commander would want thousands of Harry’s. We know our military does: they want all the bodies that want to serve in Iraq that they can get.
He said he would quit the Army if they didn’t let him go. They said, well, maybe….They thought about it some more, and said, no, we’re sure this time – no. He considered for a bit, and decided not to quit the Army after all. I doubt other officers are given the opportunity to make that decision. They take a commission with a specific period of obligation, receive orders, and obey. If they don’t, they reconsider their wisdom from a cell. It’s nice coming from the right family.
Jeffrey Frawley: He didn’t seem to have learned anything about the chain of command and the obligation of a soldier to obey lawful orders. Right or wrong, his superiors believed it was in the best interest of his unit that he do what he was told.
Craig J. Ries: He was outspoken about not wanting to be treated differently, and you accuse him of not obeying orders?
The other thing here is the timeline issue in Jeffrey’s argument. Harry made the statements that Jeffrey is talking about last week and this last weekend. At that time, the was no order or official word on whether or not Harry would go to Iraq. At that time, there was only public and private debate about whether or not he should go to Iraq.
At the time that Harry “whined” about wanting to go and serve with his men and talked about maybe leaving the Army in protest, he was not speaking out against any orders. He was simply speaking on the debate itself.
The official word only came down yesterday. Now, and correct me if I’m wrong by giving me a link, Harry hasn’t stated that he’ll quit, he has not actually quit nor has he refused to follow that order in the twnty-four hours. The actions that Jeffrey claims Harry took didn’t happen in the manner that Jeffrey now states they did. His argument is wrong because it’s based on a false timeline.
I doubt other officers are given the opportunity to make that decision.
Actually, they are. They can formally protest an order if they have the grounds to do so and it will be reviewed by a higher ranking officer then the one who gave the order. Not many soldiers do it as publically as Harry, but not many soldiers are Royals having TV cameras stuck in their face while being asked about the public debate of whether or not they should go to Iraq (or whatever the topic is.)
Do British Army officers have the option of leaving the service immediately should they not like their postings? It seems unlikely.
Formally protesting an order is one thing; Walking away from required service because one is dissatisfied is very different – indistinguishable from desertion should one not have authority to do so.
In any case, I don’t see concern for his men’s welfare as a factor in Harry’s musings about the situation: He wanted to be there; He thought it was important to a legitimate military career; It was his personal wish that he be allowed to serve. Great! When his superiors voiced concern about the danger to him and to the troops near him, his argument was – I want to go; I think I should go, real officers go; my career will be inauthentic if I don’t go; I WANT WHAT I WANT – GIVE IT TO ME OR I’LL TAKE MY BALL AND GO HOME! I’m not impressed with his value as an officer.
I’d need to find out from someone who has been in the British Army more recently then one guy I know, but my understanding from him is that some British Army Officers can resign their commision more or less from day one. Like with our military, grunts and officers do sometimes get different treatment.
He said he would quit the Army if they didn’t let him go.
So a friend says Harry said.
And then it was said Harry backed off that claim, or had never really made it.
his argument was
You’re certainly making a molehill out of this, considering what Harry’s supposed initial comment was. You make it sound like he’s been chatting it up with the papers, day after day, complaining about how he’s being treated.
Maybe the papers enjoy making it sound like that’s what’s happened, but it has no basis in reality.
“Making a molehill out of this”? If you want to accuse me of making too much of this, you could use the real expression, which is quite the reverse, “making a mountain out of a molehill” – You understand, something which actually expresses exaggeration, rather than small-scale burrowing.