Remember the earlier entry about what’s going to happen next after Virginia Tech?
Presto.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003681580_essay26.html
PAD
Remember the earlier entry about what’s going to happen next after Virginia Tech?
Presto.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003681580_essay26.html
PAD
• 
Well, how do a group of new-age police-state adults apprehend a 5 year old so that the parents won’t sue? Pepper spray? That bottle of chloroform cops like to keep handy? Grabbing her like that uncle who forces her to keep secrets from Mommy and Daddy?
There was a news story within the last few years where the police demonstrated a taser in a primary school on a student-volunteer. If the state of mind of the police is such that tasering poses the least risk of harm, that’s something they can take to a judge if the parents sue.
This case seems to be counter to the spirit of the conventional understanding of disorderly conduct. As a (perhaps the only) means for the state to bring a kid to a psych eval, the false arrest will probably be overlooked.
And let ‘Thou Shalt Not Offend Thy Neighbor, Nor Disturb Them by Thy Speech, Nor by Thy Countenance’ be the new law. 🙁
PAD, I’ll go so far as to predict the next step — the removal of already published writings from school libraries, on the presumption that the ideas expressed might feed and foster any latent hostilities buried in the personalities of the students.
Well, how do a group of new-age police-state adults apprehend a 5 year old so that the parents won’t sue? Pepper spray? That bottle of chloroform cops like to keep handy?
There are legal ways to restrain a student that don’t involve any of the above. At my school principals are trained in those procedures.
Grabbing her like that uncle who forces her to keep secrets from Mommy and Daddy?
If you think the only possible way to touch a child, you need help.
The authorities reaction to the student were asinine. But to add a note of optimism, the general reaction to this, like the reaction to the Art Teacher who was fired last year for taking her students to a museum with nude sculptures, is one of overwhelming disbelief. I think the public at large does not endorse this sort of censorship. And the authorities behind it usually end up embarrassed.
I’m not saying that we shouldn’t be ever vigilant and not fight those who think this is acceptable. I’m just saying the slope isnt slipping yet.
I truly appreciate my public school education. I had, for the most part, teachers that cared, that tried, and that I was able to learn from. Not just the lesson from the book, but learn from their examples, their stories, the way they interacted with other students, me, other teachers. People I could respect.
Teachers today are far too hampered by rules and regulations to be people to our kids. All they are allowed to be, in many cases, are conduits for approvide curriculum. Which may or may not actually be of any use aside from progressing far on Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?
Before we decided to have kids, my wife and I first decided that we were going to homeschool them. Because, quite frankly, we can’t do any worse than what’s allowed to be “taught” in schools today, and we can probably do a helluva lot better job unfettered by such a restrictive, oppressive atmosphere as our schools are today.
“Was the other child punished for the bullying behaviour as well, (which is what “teasing” is), or did the bully get away with it?”
Since when do kids get in trouble for being bullys or verbal abuse of their peers? I remember crap like that happening all the time when I was a kid. The playground was nothing but a spot for kids to yell insults at each other. Nobody gets in trouble for that, but fighting back gets you in detention or worse.
By the way, I think a kid drawing another kid in a lake of lava is hillarious. 🙂
Since when do kids get in trouble for being bullys or verbal abuse of their peers? I remember crap like that happening all the time when I was a kid. The playground was nothing but a spot for kids to yell insults at each other. Nobody gets in trouble for that, but fighting back gets you in detention or worse.
They do at my school, especially if I’m a witness. They also get charged with assault if they take it to the next level. There are more than a few teachers who probably got into teaching at least in part to seek vicarious revenge on the bullies they knew in high school.
I remember kids getting away with everything but murder when I was in school so in that way at least this zero tolerance mentality has brought about some welcome change. Though, as always, idiots take it too far.
Update;
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/360827,CST-NWS-essay27.article
Essay arrest baffles experts
Police Thursday released portions of an essay used to charge a Cary-Grove High School student with disorderly conduct, leaving several experts puzzled at an arrest based on such schoolwork.
Asked to write about whatever he wanted in a creative writing class, would-be Marine and honors student Allen Lee, 18, described a violent dream in which he shot people and then “had sex with the dead bodies.”
But then he immediately dismissed the idea as a mere joke, writing, “not really, but it would be funny if I did.”
A second disorderly count accuses Lee of alarming first-year teacher Nora Capron by writing that “as a teacher, don’t be surprised on [sic] inspiring the first CG shooting,” an apparent reference to Cary-Grove High.
Lee said Thursday he was “completely shocked” to be arrested Tuesday for his essay, especially because written instructions told kids not to “censor” what they wrote.
“In creative writing, you’re told to exaggerate,” said Lee. “It was supposed to be just junk. . . .
“There definitely is violent content, but they’re taking it out of context and making it something it isn’t.”
“I have no intention of harming anyone,” said Lee, who has been transferred to an alternative school setting. “I miss school.”
Lee’s father, Albert Lee, who emigrated from China 32 years ago, said his son has a clean academic and police record. He, too, insisted his son’s essay was not threatening but authorities “drew a conclusion before the investigation. They didn’t want to do the investigation.”
However, the father would not comment on whether he believed authorities acted quickly because his son is of Asian heritage, as was the Virginia Tech campus shooter.
Family therapist Michael Gurian, author of The Minds of Boys, said Allen Lee needs at least good counseling, but “If he was arrested solely based on those words, I don’t see that as the most helpful course.”
Bernardine Dohrn, director of Northwestern University’s Children and Family Justice Center, laughed when she heard the charge.
“You might want to talk to him, talk to his parents, but the criminal justice system seems to be the last thing you’d want,” said Dohrn, a former Weatherman leader who lived for years as a fugitive.
Mike McInerney, former head of the Cook County Public Defender’s Juvenile Court office, said he “wouldn’t be happy” if his son wrote such words but “I wouldn’t criminalize free expression. . . . I don’t think it’s going to hold up criminally.”
I’ll take back what I said about the teacher–she probably should have reported it, though I’m assuming she did not think the kid would be arrested (and I still say that’s a grotesque over-reaction). Had this kid ever done something to himself or others and it came out that he was making necrophilia references in class and they were ignored…
Still, when you tell kids not to censor themselves, in my opinion, you pretty much have to take what you get. You set the rules, you gotta live with them.
I gota say, if I were that kid or his parents, I would sure be hoping for better references than former members of the Weather Underground.
Here’s the next shoe to drop (at least it’s a caterpillar — there’s plenty more shoes where that came from):
My congresscritter, Mark Kirk (IL 10th), is supporting legislation to permit teacher to search students bags and lockers, if, *in their professional opinion* (cough) they suspect a weapon may be present.
So much for protection from search and seizure, miranda warnings, etc.
The last couple of places I’ve worked had signs up that warned you that, upon entering, you and your belongings could be subject to search. I see no reason why schools should be any different — inside the school buildings, of course.
Megan,
I’m really not sure if the other kid got in trouble. The idea of what happened to his daughter was so stupid that I never bothered to ask about the other kid.
“In our New-Age police state, the other month police TASERED a FIVE year old, who got upset and was throwing chairs.”
Ok, that’s over the top. There was a incident with a five year old getting hit with a Taser a little while ago that was justified, but that involved a mentally disturbed five year old trashing a room and then threatening to harm himself with a shard of broken glass. There was no safe way to approach the kid, so the Taser became the safest way to disarm the kid. But just because the kid is throwing chairs? I’m sorry, but there’s no five year old that can throw a chair hard enough or far enough to scare me enough to use anything but my hands to swat the chair away.
“My understanding is that all states have the right to institutionalize anyone they deem unfit for independence. They don’t issue tickets — they send the cops to pick you up.”
“This case seems to be counter to the spirit of the conventional understanding of disorderly conduct. As a (perhaps the only) means for the state to bring a kid to a psych eval, the false arrest will probably be overlooked.”
The problem here is that most, if not all, states have some version of a TDO (Temporary Detention Order) to deal with mentally unstable individuals. I don’t know how Illinois does it, but I can get Crisis to come and pick up any mentally disturbed subject on the street that is a danger to themselves or to others without issuing any charges. If this was an attempt to institutionalize a mentally or emotionally disturbed subject (again, pointing out that I’m not up on my Illinois law) they shouldn’t need to bring about criminal charges like these.
Anybody from that area or with knowledgeable friends from that area that can point out exactly how they handle it there?
“PAD, I’ll go so far as to predict the next step — the removal of already published writings from school libraries, on the presumption that the ideas expressed might feed and foster any latent hostilities buried in the personalities of the students.”
Ðámņ R.J., where have you been? That’s been quietly and occasionally not so quietly going on for some time over reason including violence, racism, and whatever the flavor of the month is for the local PC Police.
“At my school principals are trained in those procedures.”
What do they train you to do? Just professional curiosity. We get very little training that is small child specific outside of CPR for toddlers. With the large number of schools that will be sending classes to flood Downtown Richmond this year, it might be something that our department should look in to if it’s not just duplicating some of our standard stuff.
“If you think the only possible way to touch a child, you need help.”
I would now like to issue a terse no comment at this point.
“However, the father would not comment on whether he believed authorities acted quickly because his son is of Asian heritage, as was the Virginia Tech campus shooter.”
Huh, call me dense as a rock, but I didn’t even connect the the name “Lee” to “Asian” last night. That’s an interesting twist to add in.
“A second disorderly count accuses Lee of alarming first-year teacher Nora Capron by writing that “as a teacher, don’t be surprised on [sic] inspiring the first CG shooting,” an apparent reference to Cary-Grove High.”
I would like to see this entire paragraph from Lee’s writings. As a partial quote, it would seem to actually conflict with the police’s initial statement of containing no threatening statements referencing real persons or places. The complete quote in context would be better to make a judgment from.
“Still, when you tell kids not to censor themselves, in my opinion, you pretty much have to take what you get.”
Yeah, my 10th grade English teacher learned real fast to give that particular class specific guidelines when issuing such assignments to the class. The first time that she gave us a creative writing assignment without them… Lets just say that Carpenter, Romero, King and Lovecraft would have been proud. She was of course mortified and deeply “disturbed” by our work.
That class was probably the best grouping of students in one class that I ever had in school. I think we retired that poor teacher though.
Devil’s Advocate
With him being 18, and knowing what was just in the news (assuming, of course), then my guess is he probably knew that it was inappropriate right now. Does he have the right to write it? Yes, but I think a little rebel in him was his guardian angel for the production. Thank you for the more in depth coverage of the situation, Bill. Should he have been arrested? Probably not, but with the contents revealed, I think he knew he was looking for some trouble
“My congresscritter, Mark Kirk (IL 10th), is supporting legislation to permit teacher to search students bags and lockers, if, *in their professional opinion* (cough) they suspect a weapon may be present.”
Lockers don’t fall under “search and seizure, miranda warnings, etc.” protections as you, and your critter, seem to believe. The lockers belong to the school and are therefore the schools to do with as they please. That’s been established to the Federal level already.
“Student bags” may or may not be covered. The schools I went to had a waver that parents signed that basically said that students’ backpacks, bags and purses could be checked on site by school officials if the student had done or was suspecting of doing something that violated school policies (theft, weapons, drugs, prohibited items, etc.) and I’m not sure how widespread that is or if that has ever gone to the State or Federal Courts before.
Any of the active teachers (Thanks R.J.) wanna enlighten me as to their district’s policies?
Seeing the assignment, it’s like entrapment…be creative, write freely what comes to mind DON’T CENSOR YOURSELF.
Because we want to arrest you for the thoughts we encouraged you to write down.
In need of good counseling? Sure, counsel him to not listen to what he’s told is the assignment.
Over-reaction is the least of the words that comes to mind. One comment on the Trib’s site says something like “and if this kid had just shot up a school, we’d all be asking why something wasn’t done earlier.” Which is of course the knee-JERK reaction. Point being, yeah, maybe the teacher talks to the parents about the writings, certainly talks to the student, maybe brings in the school counselor to determine if there’s more than just this one creative writing assignment indicating there might be a problem. And find out there isn’t, and have that be the end of it.
Instead, he gets arrested for essentially writing out his thoughts. Literally, thought police in action.
Bobb Alfred said: Seeing the assignment, it’s like entrapment…be creative, write freely what comes to mind DON’T CENSOR YOURSELF.
Because we want to arrest you for the thoughts we encouraged you to write down.
It was mentioned that this is a first year teacher, so in all likelihood she didn’t consider what she was unleashing. She screwed up, but once she had, she was obligated to report what she read. It NEVER should have reached the point where the police were called, though, unless there were specific threats to do harm to others or himself.
Mike: Well, how do a group of new-age police-state adults apprehend a 5 year old so that the parents won’t sue? Pepper spray? That bottle of chloroform cops like to keep handy? Grabbing her like that uncle who forces her to keep secrets from Mommy and Daddy?
There was a news story within the last few years where the police demonstrated a taser in a primary school on a student-volunteer. If the state of mind of the police is such that tasering poses the least risk of harm, that’s something they can take to a judge if the parents sue.
If the state of mind of the police is priority 1 is not getting sued, then priorities are way out of whack. Too much deference is being given to stupid lawsuits, or the risk of suits. When a cop moves in to restrain an out of control 5-year-old by, say, grabbing their arm and holding them tight and the parents then sue for police brutality, the courts should seriously tend to side with the cop and laugh the parents who have failed to raise their kid well out of court. This isn’t to say that police should be given free rein and if they overstep the bounds of using only the reasonable amount of force (and tasers on a child are not reasonable) they should be smacked for it.
But when I can be sued by the burglar who slipped on the ice in my yard as they were tying to jimmy my window, when independent farmer can get sued for patent infringement by Monsanto because Monsanto’s genetically-modified grains blew into his fields. Something is seriously wrong about the validity that is being given to things that really should be dismissed out of hand.
Are any of you surprised? I’m not.
We better take care what we say here, we can be arrested for being… noisy. (sarcasm in case someone gets this the wrong way and decides to file a complaint against me.)
From
one news story on this:
The youth’s father said his son was not suspended or expelled but was forced to attend classes elsewhere for now.
So he’s too dangerous to have at our school, but it’s okay for him to be at yours?
Imagine what would have happened if young Stephen King wrote and published “Rage” right after The Kent State Massacre or Columbine or…Virginia Tech?
Let’s not confuse what’s all right at school with what’s all right to do elsewhere (own time). When I was in fifth grade (many years ago), I knew it was wrong to include the word “whørë” in my story, but I did it anyways and got in trouble. I never remember thinking it was okay to do anything sexually explicit for any school project. The kid had to have known he would get some sort of backlash…and I’m not saying the authorities needed to be involved
I just read another article about this, that aside of a few quotes from the essay, included some comments from the kid himself.
Was he stupid to write this? Definitely, he even admits this.
Was the writing disturbing, hëll yes, he’ll admit that too, see previously mentioned stupidity.
Should he have been arrested for it?
No!
What should have happened was for the principal and possibly a guidance counseller, to talk to his parents, to discuss with him why his writings were so disturbing and so on.
But to arrest him like this won’t help the kid, it won’t help his fellow students and it won’t help the school.
From the looks of it, a few friends of him seem to have gotten away with previous disturbing responses to assignments, and I guess he probably thought nothing would come out of it.
(apparantly part of the assignment said that the teacher probably wouldn’t even read the essays.)
http://www.nwherald.com/articles/2007/04/26/news/local/doc4630304f12dd7798473383.txt
New stuff from what he wrote.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18353425/>1=9246
I’m not sure if anyone has put up a link to the actual essay, yet. apologies if they have.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070426student-essay,1,6366371.story??track=sto-relcon&coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=2&cset=true
Not that it should matter what was written. People overreacted. period. But after reading it, i can’t even understand why they did. The subject isn’t exactly sunshine and flowers. Okay frankly its a little strange and definitely gross in places. But i don’t find it that alarming. Maybe that means i should be locked up too?
> What we have here is a scary surface story, let’s hope the meat behind it, isn’t as scary as it appears.
What’s really scary is that we’re not being shown the ‘evidence’. We’re expected to meekly take their word for it.
Say what?!
This isn’t like some terrorist investigation where someone is arrested but the evidence is concealed because it draws on other, ongoing investigations.
(OK, reading further shows they’ve finally released SOME of it. But why not ALL of it???)
>”In our New-Age police state, the other month police TASERED a FIVE year old, who got upset and was throwing chairs.”
Surprised? I’m [sadly] not. I dated a teacher for a couple of years and she was on the verge of quitting the profession in frustration with the STUPID rules she was saddled with. As examples … At the time she was teaching grade school kids, often grades 1-3 and she’d run into a child who, for one reason or another, was very sad/depressed and clearly needed comforting. But, though her every instinct was to give the kid a friendly, comforting hug, she had to remain at arm’s length because the school feared sex abuse lawsuits. Or, some kid would throw up and she couldn’t do anything about it until another teacher was brought in to witness that she wasn’t doing anything inappropriate with the kid while cleaning him (or her) up.
How sick is that?
No wonder schools prefer to have the cops handle the problem.
Starwolf: What’s really scary is that we’re not being shown the ‘evidence’. We’re expected to meekly take their word for it.
With all due respect, unless this goes to trial and “we” are on the jury, it doesn’t matter a fig what “we” think. God help us if we start determining due process like the home audience for American Idol.
Bill Mulligan wrote
They do when the rainbow is on a teletubby. That seems to bring out a big hullabaloo.
Bill Mulligan wrote
They do when the rainbow is on a teletubby. That seems to bring out a big hullabaloo.
Bill Mulligan wrote
They do when the rainbow is on a teletubby. That seems to bring out a big hullabaloo.
Has anyone even mentioned whether or not the student is Korean? His last name is Lee, so there’s a very good chance that he was Korean and that the police were racial profiling.
Agh. the attribute did not paste
That should have read:
Bill Mulligan wrote:
He should have just written about people smiling, dogs running, rainbows. They don’t have meetings about rainbows.
And I said:
They do when the rainbow is on a teletubby. That seems to bring out a big hullabaloo.
Agh. the attribute did not paste
That should have read:
Bill Mulligan wrote:
He should have just written about people smiling, dogs running, rainbows. They don’t have meetings about rainbows.
And I said:
They do when the rainbow is on a teletubby. That seems to bring out a big hullabaloo.
Agh. the attribute did not paste
That should have read:
Bill Mulligan wrote:
He should have just written about people smiling, dogs running, rainbows. They don’t have meetings about rainbows.
And I said:
They do when the rainbow is on a teletubby. That seems to bring out a big hullabaloo.
Korea,
One news story points out that his father came over from China 30 some years ago.
The student could very well have written a story that was one part Battle Royal, one part Zombi 2 and one part Debbie Does Dallas with absolutely no redeeming social qualities whatsoever and it would make absolutely zero difference.
You know, that could be the premise for the greatest movie ever made!
My congresscritter, Mark Kirk (IL 10th), is supporting legislation to permit teacher to search students bags and lockers, if, *in their professional opinion* (cough) they suspect a weapon may be present.
So much for protection from search and seizure, miranda warnings, etc.
I think the schools can already search lockers any time they wish–they are school property. Students are only using them, at the school’s discretion.
With bookbaghs it’s trickier. As an aside, today’s bookbags are of a size that would easily allow a mid sized thermonuclear device to be hidden. If Saddam really DID have WMD I’m pretty sure they were taken out of the country in bookbags. Anyway, we have to have a valid reason to search one. I see a kid slip a gun into his bookbag I yell out “Hey, bûŧŧmûņçh! Hand over that gun right now and no backtalk!” Ha ha, no, actually I don’t do anything of the sort, since my next line would be something like “Hey, mofo, that hurt!” I would call up the resource officer and use pig latin to el-tay im-hey about the un-gay.
If we don’t see it we are SOL. We can bring in Sniffy, the drug sniffing Dog and if he reacts that is considered valid reason.Otherwise we need a witness.
The dream police/They live inside of my head/The dream police/They come to me in my bed/The dream police/They’re coming to arrest me, oh no… –Cheap Trick, “Dream Police.”
I have a horrible feeling that one day, when I’m in my sixties (43 now), I’m going to be talking to someone born right about now and wistfully saying how much I miss America.
Oh, and just because I’ve been thinking it a lot lately: Whenever there’s a Columbine or VA Tech or other situation where a teenager goes batshit crazy and kills a bunch of people, we inevitably hear about how abused he was, and what an outcast he was. I have yet to read about any of them having had to endure one-tenth of the peer abuse I lived with from September to June from second grade through the end of high school. I’m not going to go into detail, but it was pretty gøddámņ bad and the administration was no help at all. My thoughts of revenge were limited to thinking, “Gee, I’d really like it if I could hurt that guy without getting my ášš kicked.” And then I graduated, and went out into the real world, and never had to deal with daily abuse again. Imagine that.
:: There was a incident with a five year old getting hit with a Taser a little while ago that was justified, but that involved a mentally disturbed five year old trashing a room and then threatening to harm himself with a shard of broken glass. There was no safe way to approach the kid, so the Taser became the safest way to disarm the kid.
Nope. Sorry. It’s called Physical Management Training, and the police have had it. No excuses. If anyone in the mental health field did that, it would be blasted as abuse from every headline. We have to go to court to put a padded glove on a kid who’s tearing out chunks of hand with his teeth, because it’s a restraint and any restraint is abusive. I’ve taken down 6-foot teens with weapons, and autistics bent on suicide. On a five year old, you either get them in a basket hold (the safest way), or two people approach from the sides and grab above the wrist and elbow. It’s safe, harmless, and legal in emergencies. Never, ever, ever a taser. They’re lucky the kid didn’t die. I’ve yet to see a video where a taser was justified vs. the risk of cardiac shock.
When I was in high school, one of my teachers told a story about an incident that took place back in the 1960s or 1970s:
As the story goes, he was teaching a speech class; and on a particular day when the class was to give their assigned speeches, one student showed up with a gun, pointed it at the teacher and ranted and raved about one thing or another. And then, just when it seemed certain he’d pull the trigger….
he set aside the gun and went into his speech.
I don’t recall what the teacher said the speech was about, but since the “confrontation” had been arranged between the two of them, it must have had some connection with the topic. Maybe it concerned the ease with which people could get guns. Anyway, I trust the principal was in on the act, too; And, so far as I know, there was no fallout from that bit of mutual acting. But can you imagine what would happen if they did that today? It’s a private, independent school, so there’s neither a school board nor a diocese to lower the boom; but you could count on a police investigation; threats of lawsuits (if not actual filings of same); the involvement of various camera-loving special interest groups; and, of course, negative publicity blowing the matter well out of proportion.
Like I said, the incident took place before my time, but I imagine that once the kid began the actual speech, the rest of the class realized it had all been an act (and one hëll of an introduction); and that when they told their parents what happened in school that day, the parents also understood it had just been a bit of theatricality.
Today? Don’t count on it.
Rick
Another site at which the essay can be read:
http://nwherald.com/articles/2007/04/27/news/local/doc46323cf53fd2a594795423.txt
and it’s interesting to actually see what this “straight-A student” wrote.
“Umm, yeah, what to wright [sic] about…… “
“…so whoever gets there [sic] name on the Ballet [sic]… “
It does make me wonder how the C students do at this school.
Also:
“My current English teacher is a control freak intent on setting a gap between herself and her students like a 63 year old white male fortune 500 company CEO, and a illegal immigrant … wtf is her problem. … as a teacher, don’t be surprised on inspiring the first cg shooting.“
The news reports quoted police as saying the essay caontained no specific threats. Seems to me that the English teacher would have some reason to be concerned.
Rick Keating: As the story goes, he was teaching a speech class; and on a particular day when the class was to give their assigned speeches, one student showed up with a gun, pointed it at the teacher and ranted and raved about one thing or another. And then, just when it seemed certain he’d pull the trigger….
he set aside the gun and went into his speech.
I don’t recall what the teacher said the speech was about, but since the “confrontation” had been arranged between the two of them, it must have had some connection with the topic.
Waaay back in 6th grade (1973) we regularly had to do debates about some current topic. Should we adopt the metric system? Should the Concorde be allowed to fly? Should there be more restrictions on handguns?
I got assigned the “Yes” side of that last one. Handguns are easily concealed was one of my points and, to emphasize it, I brought a cap gun to school in my pants pocket. It was small, black, and looked just like a real gun. In the morning I told the teacher I’d like to have my debate in the afternoon session so I could carry this gun for a larger part of the day and, without batting an eye at all, he agreed.
God, could you imagine the hëll to pay if any kid tried such a stunt today?
“Nope. Sorry. It’s called Physical Management Training, and the police have had it. No excuses.”
If you can’t get near a subject, even a child, without that subject threatening to to slash open something vital a Taser is a perfectly acceptable option. The subject drops the item and you can rush the subject fast enough to keep them from hitting the ground.
“They’re lucky the kid didn’t die. I’ve yet to see a video where a taser was justified vs. the risk of cardiac shock.
Oh knock it off. Tasers have been tested so many times that it’s not even an issue. Every police officer who carries a Taser has been hit by one. Every officer who instructs other officers has been hit multiple times with full five second bursts. I was hit six or seven times at various training courses in a two year period by both of the most recent generations of Taser. We’re all still fine and dandy as are all the people, including people with pace-makers, who have been used to test the things.
Have there been Taser “related” deaths? Yes and no. the press loves to play up a “taser death” when one happens, but they always fail to come back and report that the findings of the investigations into those deaths have all shown that other factors (like, drug overdoses) caused the deaths.
If you put me in a position where you won’t let me get closer then ten feet from you and I have to decide whether to risk letting you slash your wrist or your neck by charging you VS tagging you with a Taser when you give me the opening… You’re lighting up there, Sparky.
Posted by: campchaos at April 27, 2007 07:44 PM
Nope. Sorry. It’s called Physical Management Training, and the police have had it. No excuses.
You’re not a police officer. Jerry Chandler is. Therefore, his word carries infinitely more weight.
Posted by: campchaos at April 27, 2007 07:44 PM
If anyone in the mental health field did that, it would be blasted as abuse from every headline.
Then it’s a good thing we don’t hold cops to the same rules as people in the mental health field.
Posted by: campchaos at April 27, 2007 07:44 PM
We have to go to court to put a padded glove on a kid who’s tearing out chunks of hand with his teeth, because it’s a restraint and any restraint is abusive. I’ve taken down 6-foot teens with weapons, and autistics bent on suicide.
Well, what were the circumstances? Were you faced with someone ten feet waving a weapon at you, or themselves? If so, how, praytell, did you get to them fast enough to prevent them from doing damage to you or themselves? Because frankly, if someone has a sharp object pointed at their wrist and is determined to use it to inflict self-harm, I don’t know anyone — ANYONE — who is fast enough to get there before they can do it.
Posted by: campchaos at April 27, 2007 07:44 PM
On a five year old, you either get them in a basket hold (the safest way), or two people approach from the sides and grab above the wrist and elbow. It’s safe, harmless, and legal in emergencies.
Yeah, if the kid is kind enough to make sure there’s someone behind him who can sneak up before he can slit his writsts. If everyone is in front of him ten feet or more away, THEN what do you do? Lunge at him, watch him slit his wrists, and then put him in a basket hold while he bleeds to death?
My girlfriend works at a children’s detention facility and did an educational field placement at a psychiatric center. She knows all about restraint moves — she even had to put someone in a hold herself the other day. They’re not magic. People at the detention center get injured all the time performing them, and sometimes the detainees are injured as well.
Posted by: campchaos at April 27, 2007 07:44 PM
Never, ever, ever a taser.
Well, not for YOU, no. But you’re not a trained law enforcement official.
If you don’t understand the value of sheltering a child’s ability to establish a boundary — to say “no” — you should minimize your time with children.
If you don’t understand the value of sheltering a child’s ability to establish a boundary — to say “no” — you should minimize your time with children.
A pedophile would say that.
Look campchaos, I don’t want to turn this into a me VS you thing. Virginia is kinda strange laws and regs for this kind of thing. When it come to a mental subjuct, there are things I can’t do that Crisis can and vice-versa. Hëll, there are things the neither we nor Crisis can do that they can do at lock-up.
We train differently. One thing that my training has shown me is that you can’t take a subject with a bladed weapon or the like from farther away then arms length without getting sliced yourself. You also can’t move fast enough to stop a subject from slicing themselves open. We’ve done both set ups with training blades and it ends the same way 99 times out of 100.
I also know the Taser very well. I’m looking in to being a trainer myself and I’ve been doing a whole lot of study into the things history and use. I’m pretty sure that I can say that I know a whole lot more about it then you.
It’s not the health risk that a lot of less informed people believe it to be. It’s actually safer then most of the other less then leathal tools we have.
OC Spray? I’ve seen more bad reactions to that then I’ve seen to Tasers. Pepper spray in the face does not wear off anywhere as easily or as well as a Taser burst.
ASP? Yeah, let me hit you with a steel pipe a few times and see what you think about it?
Hand to hand? Yeah, I really want to hurt some one or have them hurt me. I really want to drop some one onto the hard concrete. I really want to roll around with a guy who might have TB, AIDS or some other thing or a crazy homeless guy who has spent the last few days peeing on himself and messing his pants.
The Taser when deployed, when rarely deployed, does no harm to others and it keeps us from getting hurt as well. I see that as a good thing.
Now, it does hurt like hëll when it’s hitting you, but that’s actually a good thing as well. I’ve seen guys who wanted to fight drop to the ground and spread their arms out at the first sight of a Taser. It hurt so bad that they didn’t want to go through that again. I’m sure that caused a hëll of a lot less damage then just about anything else you could think of.
Tasers also work good when you’ve got a subject on drugs. I’ve been in a fight with a guy that was high as hëll and it was like fighting four guys who felt no pain. I’ve seen six or seven officers struggle with one guy who’s drugged up and in a rage before. ASPs, OC Spray and hand to hand are a joke. Tasers still work. it’s a better option then that other thing that always works. Well, mostly always.
I know the Taser. I know what I’m talking about. I’m not going to do a Tom Cruise and slag on mental health professionals because, like Tom, I really don’t have the background, training or years of study to talk in an expert way on it. I’m just asking that you not Tom Cruise us or our tools either.
Eric, have fun.
I’m not touching this one with a 100 foot pole, but it should be a blast to watch.
Just in case everybody hasn’t seen this by now, the Marines have stopped this guy from joining up because of this essay and the pending criminal charges.
http://www.comcast.net/news/national/index.jsp?cat=DOMESTIC&fn=/2007/04/27/648731.html
This kid’s future plans are now trashed over a no boundaries writing assignment. I know people that got into the Marines after putting ski poles through peoples’ ears during a fight, but they won’t take this kid, in essence, because of class work.
I also have to say that I find it funny that the AP would let a story go out about the Marine Crops. When do you plant those? And under what phase of the moon?
No less then twenty five feet off sure in no less then ten feet of water and under a Hunter’s Moon only.
You don’t wanna know about what grows if you leave out that last part. I can’t say much, but I will say that the last outbreak of “shark” attacks wan’t everything the press led you to believe it was.
Would you arrest me for growing it, though, Jerry? And no wonder you had that sword under the tree!
I saw nothing, I know nothing and… who are you again?
A pedophile would say lots of things — like what a pedophile would say.
Oprah says to give in to the child if the child doesn’t feel like hugging grampa — to nurture the child’s ability to establish a boundary.
As far as your statement characterizes Oprah as a pedophile, I take no shame or embarrassment in your arbitrary attempt to — I don’t even know what you’re trying to do — hate on a guy who takes the word of the molestation victim who became the most successful broadcaster in the world.