Readers of Harlan Ellison’s webpage–and even some non-readers–are aware that Harlan is launching a legal action against Pocket Books over current and upcoming novels about Edith Keeler.
Quite a few folks have been asking me if this will have any impact on “Imzadi” which, as anyone who has read it knows, is basically an inversion of “City” and features the Guardian of Forever. Although I already suspected the answer, I called Harlan and he personally assured me that “Imzadi” will not be a part of the litigation, for two reasons: First, he’d never cause a close friend that kind of grief, and second, way back in the day when I first came up with the plot, I called him and asked permission. He gave me the okay, I wrote the book, and dedicated it to him.
In terms of the case itself, I know all the parties involved and–for all I know–I might be called for deposition because of “Imzadi.” Plus, y’know…not a lawyer. So I’m not commenting beyond saying that I certainly hope matters are settled quickly and to the satisfaction of all concerned.
PAD
• 
// Possibly because Stan Lee was an employee of Marvel Comics and Jack Kirby was an artist-for-hire when they co-created The Hulk! Also, neither one of them had obtained any copywrites, by contract or purchase, to any of their works. //
Other’s besides Stan and Jack, (including Ellison I might add), have worked on and added to the Hulk legend over the years so I still think it’s a valid question, when do you call the creator VS when you don’t. To keep it in the Trek universe, PAD has used characters and concepts not created by Harlan in some of his other Trek work, did he clear those with the original authors or was HE and the guardian a special case?
Ellison did not win a lawsuit in that case, he threatened one and the producers and the studio settled and it really ticked off James’s Cameron that they did. He said in many interview that he didn’t plagerize and he wanted the thing to go to court so he could “clear his name”
Sounds just like Alan Moore’s comments about the suit against League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which his studio also settled.
Steve: “The guy who created the Nike “Swish” got less than a thousand dollars for it. The McDonalds brothers sold to Ray Kroc for a comparatively modest fee. Did they deserve more? As cold as it may seem,– No, they did not. They knew what they were getting into when created and/or sold their properties to another. *THAT’s* capitalism as well.”
Unless you were privy to the negotiations that resulted in either of the aforementioned transacations, or the contracts they signed, you don’t know what they did or didn’t deserve. For all we know, those people may have been screwed over but didn’t realize it, and their lawyers weren’t good enough to secure all of their rights (assuming they had lawyers — I don’t know if they did). Anything’s possible. Moreover, unless you were privy to the thoughts of those people as they sold that which they created, you don’t know what they did or didn’t know.
There is a world of difference between assumptions and actual knowledge.
Besides, those two situations may be completely irrelevant to Ellison’s case. It all depends on the contract he signed with Paramount.
Steve: “Now, I admit to having only a layman’s knowledge of such things, but it seems to me that legal precedent is WAY against him.”
Steve, I’m trying to be nice. But what you wrote above is tantamount to saying, “Gee, I really have no basis for forming an opinion but I’m going to do it anyway.” A “layman’s knowledge” of such things is no knowledge at all. The law is extremely complex. And, again, so much depends on the wording of the contract Ellison signed.
Steve: “So if this actually turns out to be more than another frivolous law-suit clogging up the courts by someone trying to claim something that they have zero legal right to, I’ll apologize here and publically.”
Even if Ellison loses, it doesn’t mean the case was frivolous. One can never predict what the courts will decide. It’s always a roll of the dice.
Since Ellison created something of value and believes he has a legal claim to ownership of that something, I think he is well within his rights to take his case to court. If he is wrong, that’s no reason to pillory him.
And this isn’t a nuisance suit. Ellison did write “City.” He did create the character of Edith Keeler. The question is whether he owns certain rights. That’s a far cry from the person who says, “Gee, I wrote a story about Mermaids, so the movie ‘The Little Mermaid’ is infringing on my rights.'” THAT’S a true nuisance suit. Ellison’s claim, on the other hand, is the sort of thing the courts were created to sort out.
Steve: “If it turns out that HE’s just spouting off, then my opinion of the man stands. An opinion I’ve held ever since he published his original script, btw.”
Steve, an opinion is only worth as much as the quality of the knowledge and thoughts that form it. You’re basing your opinions about this case on a lot of blanket assumptions, and therefore they’re not worth much.
Before you become angry, please note I didn’t say you are unintelligent (because I don’t believe you are), nor did I say your none of your opinions about anything are worthwhile (I wouldn’t dare make such a blanket statement). But in this instance you are failing to recognize the limits of your knowledge.
One would think that an author contracted to write a novel in a franchise would expect any potential legalities to have been hammered out by those who have contracted him to do the work.
I think that’s probably correct. As I recall, Ellison sued Warren Magazines over a blatent plagerism of A BOY AND HIS DOG that appeared in 1984 (the magazine). I don’t recall anything about the writer of the story getting nailed.
(there was also the strange case of the Incredible Hulk rip-off of SOLDIER. I say strange because it was written by Bill Mantlo, a friend of Ellisons and may have originally been supposed to be an adaptation…I never could find a straight answer on how exactly this happened. Marvel gave Ellison some money and a promise of future credit, though how that was supposed to be done I don’t know.)
I suspect you’re correct. Interesting to note that Ellison did not win a lawsuit in that case, he threatened one and the producers and the studio settled and it really ticked off James’s Cameron that they did. He said in many interview that he didn’t plagerize and he wanted the thing to go to court so he could “clear his name”. And to be honest I think Cameron has a point, I’m not sure if it had gone to court Ellison would have won that case.
I think there were interviews where people involved with the production kept mentioning how THE OUTER LIMITS was an inspiration for Terminator, which would certainly have helped Ellison’s case. I’m just surprised that the makers of CYBORG 2087 didn’t get in the act.
// I suspect you’re correct. Interesting to note that Ellison did not win a lawsuit in that case, he threatened one and the producers and the studio settled and it really ticked off James’s Cameron that they did. He said in many interview that he didn’t plagerize and he wanted the thing to go to court so he could “clear his name”. And to be honest I think Cameron has a point, I’m not sure if it had gone to court Ellison would have won that case.
I think there were interviews where people involved with the production kept mentioning how THE OUTER LIMITS was an inspiration for Terminator, which would certainly have helped Ellison’s case. I’m just surprised that the makers of CYBORG 2087 didn’t get in the act. //
I know Ellison has said that someone specific involved with the production told him Cameron kept mentioning the Outer Limits episodes, if that person said it in interviews I’m unaware. Cammeron has denied he ever said that so it still comes down to a he said/she said kind of a thing. IMO, while there are some simularities between the Terminator and HE’s Outer Limits episodes there’s a whole lot thats different. I have a hard time seeing it as plagerism, it always seemed more like, different writers, simular material, completly different takes on that material. Which is why I understand Cameron’s annoyance at the studio for settling.
So much speculation here. It seems Ellison at least got a credible claim. Without seeing the supportin documents, that’s all it is, but that’s what the court is for, to review those and determine what’s what. It’s true that most work-for-hire material belongs legally to the employer. But it’s a matter of what the specific contract and agreements involved say, rather than any hard and fast rule of law. And the great thing about contracts is that, within certain limits, you can do anything. I always looked at contracts as private lawmaking. So long as it doesn’t involve anything illegal, you can put anything you want into a contract.
Copyright is pretty expansive, and it’s a concept that the public seems to misunderstand a lot. It can cover a lot of things…characters, concepts, settings, etc. So the Star Trek Mirror Universe can be covered by copyright. It’s more than a concept, it’s a setting, complete with characters and stories. Any derivative work is covered by the copyright. Now, you could go off and write a Star WARS Mirror Universe story if you wanted…assuming you had the right to use the Star Wars copyrights…and at worst you’d get called unoriginal. But the Star Trek copyright holder (Paramount, presumably) couldn’t say boo to you legally.
So if Ellison retained copyright over the original material created for the story…the setting and characters unique that that story, essentially all the fictional characters and events outside of Kirk, Spock, McCoy, the Enterprise, etc., then he does retain copyright control over them.
As a copyright, it can’t be lost. Well, technically, he could allow it to be used so much that it’s determined to have entered the public domain, and then he’d have no right to control it anymore. But he’s not done that, so it’s a moot point. Letting PAD use it with permission doesn’t run any risk of eroding his copyright at all. If anything, it strenthens his position, because he’s exercising a copyright owner’s option to allow additional creative use of his property. He doesn’t have to charge for it…he may, but nothing requires him to.
What probably happened is that the insitutional knowledge at Pocket Books/Paramount that knew that the original City material wasn’t freely available moved on…either retirement or otherwise…and the replacement editors read a pitch, thought “hey, that’s a great idea…I wonder why we haven’t published a story like that before?” Hearing no explanation as to why, they gave the greenlight, commissioned an author, worked up publicity, and sent it off to the printer. All of which costs a good deal of $. Ellison gets word, sends a letter off, and Pocket Books is more or less trapped. They’ve invested too much to just stop, so they have to fight, at least at first. Their lawyers will likely read Ellison’s briefs on the matter, advise a settlement offer, and that’ll be the end of the matter.
// As a copyright, it can’t be lost. Well, technically, he could allow it to be used so much that it’s determined to have entered the public domain, and then he’d have no right to control it anymore //
Ah yes, that’s what I was thinking of when I made the comment about copyrights being “abandoned” above.
It’s funny, the internet is full of references to the interview that Cameron supposedly gave where he mentioned The Outer Limits as an influence but none of the ones I have found say where the interview took place or actually have quotes from it. So maybe that’s a story that has just been repeated to the point where everuone assumes that it’s true (I thought it was a Starlog interview but I have no desire to dig up those old issues to find out).
The Allan Moore LXG lawsuit is a more serious matter since Larry Cohen accused the company of deliberately ripping off his idea, which would make Moore little more than a plagerist for hire. Small wonder he was furious.
What was interesting about the LXG suit was that Cohen didn’t sue Moore, Jim Lee, or DC Comics over the comic book. He sued the studio over the movie, claiming he pitched a similar idea years earlier. So, the studio was accused of stealing an idea that they had clearly bought from another author. From their perspective, they made a nuisance go away. From Moore’s he had his name dragged through the mud over an accusation that he stole a movie idea from someone he never met, made it into a comic book, and then sold it to a movie studio.
Yeah, he had a right to be pìššëd.
As for Harlan Ellison’s (R) suit: I’m not going to pretend to know what his contract with Paramount in the 60s said, but he’s been through so many copyright disputes that I would say that few authors have more knowledge of copyright law today than he does. Let the case shake out in the courts and see what happens.
I have a question. Didn’t The Guardian get used in animated series? Why no fallout back then? Or did I just miss the fallout in my innocent younger days?
“I think there were interviews where people involved with the production kept mentioning how THE OUTER LIMITS was an inspiration for Terminator, which would certainly have helped Ellison’s case.”
Yeah, but I seem to remember Cameron pretty much being consistent in saying that the story idea came to him due to a dream/nightmare. But like you I can’t find anything. I tend to also think it was Starlog or Fangoria but, even if I had the will and the time, most my back issues of lots of things got trashed in a freak flood two years ago.
Don’t you just hate trying to look up trivia from the pre-net days?
Letting PAD use it with permission doesn’t run any risk of eroding his copyright at all.
Here’s a question.
I know some authors are pickier than others when it comes to copyright stuff. Ellison seems like the type to let nothing slip past him, regardless. Yet, this issue apparently hasn’t come up before, even though Trek tie-in novels have used these characters in the past.
If Ellison really did sign off on all these previous uses for derivative works of City, wouldn’t each of these books have a “such and such used with Ellison’s permission” on the copyright page?
I mean, that’s what Ellison is demanding now – he wants his name on the cover of the Crucible books, so why wouldn’t he have had credit in the past?
Is there a credit to Ellison on the copyrights page of Imzadi? There isn’t one in Yesterday’s Son.
I posted this at the John Byrne Forum, but it’s just as applicable here:
I still wonder if Harlan knows about the Star Trek novel FIRST FRONTIER. It tells the tale of an alien reptilian race that goes back in time millions of years to deflect the asteroid that hit Earth during that era, so that the dinosaurs don’t go extinct. Thus the dinosaurs evolve into a sentient reptilian species, not unlike the ones who deflected the asteroid, and humanity never gets the chance to spring into being. Kirk and the Enterprise are returning from a time travel mission as history is altered, so history basically changes around them while they’re traveling through the timestream and they don’t get affected by the changes. When they return to the 23rd century, they discover that everything they knew is gone, and they’re the only hope to restore the proper timeline.
Why do I bring this up? Well, if any of you have ever read the Stephen King nonfiction book DANSE MACABRE, you’ll probably recall a lengthy account from Harlan Ellison, in which he discusses the idea that he pitched to Paramount for the first Star Trek movie, back in the mid-1970s.
Guess what the story was about!
“Here’s a question.
I know some authors are pickier than others when it comes to copyright stuff. Ellison seems like the type to let nothing slip past him, regardless. Yet, this issue apparently hasn’t come up before, even though Trek tie-in novels have used these characters in the past.
If Ellison really did sign off on all these previous uses for derivative works of City, wouldn’t each of these books have a “such and such used with Ellison’s permission” on the copyright page?
I mean, that’s what Ellison is demanding now – he wants his name on the cover of the Crucible books, so why wouldn’t he have had credit in the past?”
Maybe…If that was a condition of allowing their use. There’s nothing that says that a copyright owner has to catch every misuse of his property, or that he has to treat every misuse or approved use the same way. It could very well be that previous books called Ellison up like PAD did, and got his prior approval. They’d have been smart to get it in writing, but that’s not necessary. It could also be that Ellison just didn’t notice at the time, and by the time he did, he didn’t think it worthwhile to do anything about it. He’s not putting his property rights at any risk of eroding by missing a book here and there that appropriates his property.
Ah, the internet…
the place where any half-wit with $1000 can get a computer and then tell the rest of the world that the rest of the world is f***ed up, but they aren’t.
Also the place where any person with a hatred for another person can find any excuse to attack that person while hiding under the table in fear of retribution.
Idiots and cowards.
and by the time he did, he didn’t think it worthwhile to do anything about it
Is there anything in Ellison’s previous and current rants to indicate that he would ever pass on a chance to go after somebody with a lawsuit?
Unfortunately, he seems very proud of his ability to drag people into court, whether that’s a fair impression or not.
This post is separate from my previous post because it has specific responses, not just a rant.
——————
Harlan Ellison has better contracts than most other people because he writes them that way. A contract is a two-way device. One needn’t accept the first contract that is offered and may make changes to that contract. The previously mentioned Will Eisner had a good contract that others did not. Bob Kane had a better contract than others did. If other creators did not have good contracts, that is mostly their own fault for not demanding such. Unfortunate, but true.
——————————-
I didn’t see where Harlan is demanding that his name appear on every cover, but that seems a likely possibility. Something like “Using characters created by Harlan Ellison”.
——————————-
Harlan Ellison is a passionate man. Passionate about many things. It only makes sense that he would pursue a lawsuit just as passionately as he does anything else. If some happen to see this as a personal vendetta, they may do so. Doesn’t make it true. But Harlan would most likely not say “I am right and you are scum”.
——————–
“One can never predict what the courts will decide.”
Especially now.
// As a copyright, it can’t be lost. Well, technically, he could allow it to be used so much that it’s determined to have entered the public domain, and then he’d have no right to control it anymore //
Ah yes, that’s what I was thinking of when I made the comment about copyrights being “abandoned” above.
I think when the phrase “abandoned” is used with respect to copyrights, it has more to do with copyright whose owners willfully cede their rights to another party, or to the public domain. It doesn’t seem to usually mean “abandoned” in it’s everyday sense of “unused” or “neglected”.
That said, one of the more interesting issues in current copyright law has to do with orphaned copyrights: works that are still under copyright protection, but whose proprietors are difficult or impossible to identify (for example, if a book’s author dies without heir or estate.)
Not that any of that has much to do with the HE case. But as mindful people have said above, that’s what courts are for.
Assuming he’s portraying things accurately, then he’s got a case. Personally, I’d be surprised if any production company had agreed to leave characters in a show the property of the writer instead of the studio, but I have no experience in the legal or writing profession to back that up.
your standard contract for Doctor Who has the writers owning the characters they created. when a character was intended as an ongoing character, an exception would be written into the contract.
the character of Nyssa, if i recall correctly, was not intended as a recurring character, so Johnny Byrne (no relation i’ll assume) owned her character and got lots of royalties when they decided to make her a companion for two more seasons.
your standard contract for Doctor Who has the writers owning the characters they created
That’s because it’s the standard in British television.
Alan Coil –
I didn’t see where Harlan is demanding that his name appear on every cover
From Ellison’s webpage:
“Whether I insist they withdraw all copies of the book out there now, and make them add my credit to the cover and indicia, or just reprint it in its entirety, I have also not decided.”
// Yeah, but I seem to remember Cameron pretty much being consistent in saying that the story idea came to him due to a dream/nightmare. //
That’s the way I’ve always heard/read it, if Cameron ever said anything different I’d certainly be interested to read it.
I still wonder if Harlan knows about the Star Trek novel FIRST FRONTIER. It tells the tale of an alien reptilian race that goes back in time millions of years to deflect the asteroid that hit Earth during that era, so that the dinosaurs don’t go extinct. Thus the dinosaurs evolve into a sentient reptilian species, not unlike the ones who deflected the asteroid, and humanity never gets the chance to spring into being. Kirk and the Enterprise are returning from a time travel mission as history is altered, so history basically changes around them while they’re traveling through the timestream and they don’t get affected by the changes. When they return to the 23rd century, they discover that everything they knew is gone, and they’re the only hope to restore the proper timeline.
Holy crap, you’re kidding, right? I remember Ellison talking about that idea and thinking about how cool it would be. (Isn’t that also the one where some studio nitwit demanded that ancient Mayans be somehow put into the story because he’s read something about ancient Mayans and thought that it would “be cool” to have some ancient Mayans in it to satisfy the vast clamor from John Q Public for more stories about ancient Mayans?)
// It’s funny, the internet is full of references to the interview that Cameron supposedly gave where he mentioned The Outer Limits as an influence but none of the ones I have found say where the interview took place or actually have quotes from it. //
Without seeing the interview in question, (context and all), I can’t defend or condem either way, but I can point out that being influenced by something and plagerizing it are two different things.
// your standard contract for Doctor Who has the writers owning the characters they created
That’s because it’s the standard in British television. //
As Alan Moore has pointed out many times, Work for Hire as a concept does not exist in England.
Hmm,
I wonder what Harlan’s reaction will be when the Star Trek scripts volume is released with the broadcast version of the City on the Edge of Forever script?
http://www.cafepress.com/roddenberry
“As Alan Moore has pointed out many times, Work for Hire as a concept does not exist in England.”
Which, if American law was less inclined to grant so much power to corporations, should be the way we go as well. Yet we willingly cede tons of rights to fictional entities all in the name of making a buck.
Okay, everybody line up — FOE on one side, EOE on the other. We’ll settle this with a game of “Red Rover, Red Rover.”
Which, if American law was less inclined to grant so much power to corporations, should be the way we go as well.
I’m not sure I’d agree.
I like my shared universes, like Star Trek, Marvel Comics, and Dragonlance, the way they are.
I’m surprised it hasn’t happened already, but I’d hate to think of what would happen should the Terry Nation Estate suddenly decide they’d like the Daleks to appear in, say, Battlestar Galactica (if BG were being made in Britain).
Bill Mulligan wrote:
//Holy crap, you’re kidding, right?//
Nope!
Bill Mulligan wrote:
//I remember Ellison talking about that idea and thinking about how cool it would be. (Isn’t that also the one where some studio nitwit demanded that ancient Mayans be somehow put into the story because he’s read something about ancient Mayans and thought that it would “be cool” to have some ancient Mayans in it to satisfy the vast clamor from John Q Public for more stories about ancient Mayans?)//
Yep, that’s the one.
FIRST FRONTIER is a really good novel, actually–I quite enjoyed it. But the whole time I read it, I wondered, “Does Harlan know about this?”
Overall, this is one [censored] way to celebrate Star Trek’s fortieth anniversary today!
If any want something a little more retrospective on the day, please go to http://www.thefreechoice.info
Thank you in advance for your patronage.
// I’m not sure I’d agree.
I like my shared universes, like Star Trek, Marvel Comics, and Dragonlance, the way they are.
I’m surprised it hasn’t happened already, but I’d hate to think of what would happen should the Terry Nation Estate suddenly decide they’d like the Daleks to appear in, say, Battlestar Galactica (if BG were being made in Britain). //
I wouldn’t worry, Terry Nation made serveral attempts to market the Dalaks outside of Dr Who. (A comic strip, a play), none of them were as sucessfully as the Dr Who episodes with the Dalaks.
Jerry C wrote, “I have a question. Didn’t The Guardian get used in animated series? Why no fallout back then? Or did I just miss the fallout in my innocent younger days?”
I don’t know, but I would imagine that Mr. Ellison was sent the screenplay and signed off on it–just as he did on IMZADI.
If Harlan does know about the book te reason he hasn’t done anything about it because he couldn’t prove it was taken from him.
Also people can say no other writer would have something in their contract, but if anyone would HE would.
Harlan is many things but i’ll always remember him as the who took the time to call me after I posted on his message board saying I was doing a presentation on A Boy and His Dog, and hoped to forward him some questions.
There has been some question as to why HE is doing this now when there has been other books that utilized Edith Keeler and the Guardian (which I regard as a character BTW). Without reviewing all the books, I would hazard a guess that it might depend on how they were used in the other stories and how close this new book’s plot hews towards concepts in HE’s original script as opposed to the other books.
And in an only semi-related note, wasn’t there a TREK novel that had them traveling back in time (Through the Guardian?) to basically the series SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS that got recalled?
Frankly, Peter, as a tie-in writer yourself I would think that the possible precednt this would set would be a frightening one. How could this possibly not have a Richard Arnold-level negative effect on the Trek fiction line?
OK, I’m not getting the reference here. Can someone clue me in?
Hmmm. Probably the reason that Harlan has not gone after Pocket Books for past trangressions is that he was not informed of them. Remember, he learned about this due to someone posting about it on his forum. It would be ridiculous to imagine that Harlan is otherwise keeping track of Star Trek Fiction.
Did anybody else who read First Frontier keep expecting the Sleestak to show up?
Now, one problem I have with the Harlan Ellison/James Cameron/Terminator link up. Couldn’t you, if you were imaginative, say that any sci-fi story (or any other genre, really) is derivative of something that came before? I mean, if you wanted to be broad-sweeping with it, couldn’t you say that all robot stories are derived from R.U.R? (Interesting trivia note, here-the word “robot” actually comes from a Czechezlovakian phrase that means servitude or slavery) I’m not saying that Harlan Ellison doesn’t have a case here, or that Cameron did or didn’t take some idea or whatever. I don’t know that. Just kind of thinking. Now I have to go turn off my smoke detectors.
Rich,
I’ll give it a shot. Commence cluing in. 🙂
Richard Arnold was hired in the late ’80s by Paramount as the TNG research assistant, but he also got heavily involved with the licensing side — novels and comics in particular. During that period (mostly 1990-91) lots of memos, signed by and ostensibly written by Roddenberry, started making all sorts of extremely odd suggestions and in many cases tossing proposals entirely for what seemed inconsistent reasons. In at least some of those cases, when someone at Pocket managed to get a personal meeting with Gene, he suggested minor if any changes and thought things sounded good.
The conclusion drawn by many, many people at the time is that Richard was taking on much more authority than he should have been doing, and several writers such as Diane Duane walked away from the Trek line entirely.
A few months after Gene’s death, Richard was removed from his position. He still appears to have a successful career doing the convention circuit, but he’s been out of the licensing loop for a very long time.
If you do a Google Groups search for “Richard Arnold” and “interview” in the period of late 1991, you’ll find a Usenet archive of a lengthy interview with him (conducted by yours truly) and the results of some followup research (also conducted by yours truly). I wouldn’t say that said interview had any effect in terms of the grand scheme of things, but you may find it enlightening in terms of who RA is and how he was perceived by many at the time.
Hope this helps. (And obviously, if I’m misremembering something I’d appreciate it if other people knowledgeable about that era could weigh in.)
TWL
// There has been some question as to why HE is doing this now when there has been other books that utilized Edith Keeler and the Guardian (which I regard as a character BTW). Without reviewing all the books, I would hazard a guess that it might depend on how they were used in the other stories and how close this new book’s plot hews towards concepts in HE’s original script as opposed to the other books.
And in an only semi-related note, wasn’t there a TREK novel that had them traveling back in time (Through the Guardian?) to basically the series SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS that got recalled? //
If memory serves the plot had Spock encountering some of his human ancesters who were characters from that series, the in joke being the actor who played Spock’s dad was in that series. The writer thought he was being cute and having an in joke, no one at Paramount or Pocket books got the joke, (like me they probably never saw the series), so it got published without anyone making a fuss. It was pulled after readers pointed it out, persumably to avoid a lawsuit. (As far as I know no lawsuit every happened). Forget the name of the book or the author but it was fairly early on in the publication history of Trek novels. (Didn’t read the novel, but I do remember reading about it in fan magizines at the time).
// Hmmm. Probably the reason that Harlan has not gone after Pocket Books for past trangressions is that he was not informed of them. Remember, he learned about this due to someone posting about it on his forum. It would be ridiculous to imagine that Harlan is otherwise keeping track of Star Trek Fiction. //
Anythings possible, I would find it absolutly amazing that in 30 something years of Trek novels that no one, (fan, fellow writer, ect), would have mentioned it to him, but it is possible.
Another thought occurred to me after reading Harlan’s entry in his website:
Roddenberry made it a point to contact established SF writers to submit scripts to Star Trek, as opposed to just mainstream TV writers as shows like “Lost in Space” did at the time. What if Harlan was the only one, among all of these writers, who felt that Trek had a strong potential for longevity IN PRINT as well as on the small or big screen and made it a point to include a “Retain ownership of printed property” clause [b]before COTEOF was green-lighted[/b], knowing that the WGAW protected printed and viewed material separately to avoid plagiarism suits by writers of either and both mediums while TPTB at Paramount didn’t and probably STILL DON’T?
It would at least have the benefit of proving what a bunch of know-nothings the Hollywood suits are and what a shrewd operator Harlan has continued to be over the decades!
Of course, what would you expect from a guy who critisized pre-adolescent beauty contests 20 years before Jon-Benet Ramsey was born and knew what a dynamite series “All in the Family” was before it first appeared on the air worldwide? Like Peter, he’s a man of vision!
I’m not saying that Harlan Ellison doesn’t have a case here, or that Cameron did or didn’t take some idea or whatever. I don’t know that. Just kind of thinking.
One account has it that Paramount discovered that someone involved with Terminator bragged about ripping off Outer Limits. that would have been bad for them. Personally I don’t think the links between Soldier, Demon With A Glass Hand and Terminator are great enough to rise to the level of plagerism but SOMETHING must have convinced the company to settle.
Ellison is many things but stupid isn’t one of them. I’m really thinking that his contract has clauses that will make Pocket Books want to make this all go away.
Tim & Darren,
Thanks.
Now many only remaining question is-
Who is going to run out to their local book stores tomorrow to grab a copy or two to hoarde for an inevitable ebay sale in case of the book being recalled? 😉
If memory serves the plot had Spock encountering some of his human ancesters who were characters from that series, the in joke being the actor who played Spock’s dad was in that series. The writer thought he was being cute and having an in joke, no one at Paramount or Pocket books got the joke, (like me they probably never saw the series), so it got published without anyone making a fuss. It was pulled after readers pointed it out, persumably to avoid a lawsuit. (As far as I know no lawsuit every happened). Forget the name of the book or the author but it was fairly early on in the publication history of Trek novels. (Didn’t read the novel, but I do remember reading about it in fan magizines at the time).
The novel was Ishmael, by Barbara Hambly (and the series it tied in to was “Here Come the Brides,” not “7Bf7B”). One noteworthy point about the novel is that it provides closure to the TV series, something the series itself never did (or so I’m told).
Hmmm. I understand that the book is now going into a second printing.
1 //I’m not saying that Harlan Ellison doesn’t have a case here, or that Cameron did or didn’t take some idea or whatever. I don’t know that. Just kind of thinking.
One account has it that Paramount discovered that someone involved with Terminator bragged about ripping off Outer Limits. that would have been bad for them. Personally I don’t think the links between Soldier, Demon With A Glass Hand and Terminator are great enough to rise to the level of plagerism but SOMETHING must have convinced the company to settle. //
Maybe, maybe not. Company’s very often settle if it’s in thier best interest to settle something. NBC once settled an increadibly dumb lawsuit that Cher brought against Saturday Night Live, (apparently she didn’t like one of thier jokes about her).
Anyone with a grammer school knowledge of the first admendment would have told NBC that Cher didn’t have a chance of winning her suit, SNL was clearly protected by the first admendment and previous court decisions on public figures and parody/satire but someone in the NBC legal department thought it was easier and cheaper to settle.
Till this day, because of that settlement SNL cannot make fun of Cher, (they can make fun of the President, the Pope and the mafia but not Cher, does that seem right).
A few years later Cher, (who obviously doesn’t have a sence of humor about herself), tried to do the same thing with Howard Stern, Stern and his lawyers did the exact oppisite of what NBC had done, they basically said, publicly and on the air, “come and get me”. Cher, realizing that Stern, unlike NBC, was not going to be bullied into a settlement dropped the suit a couple of weeks later.
The point, settlements (especially with big coporations) sometimes have nothing to do with who’s right an who’s wrong and everything to do with “is it cheaper to make this go away now or to fight it”.
Darren, I’d never heard that story. That’s classic.
I’m amazed that EVERYONE didn’t threaten to sue SNL after that foolishness.
I’ve been reading, and posting, here for over four years now. I’ve been trying to comment in this thread, but my posts are getting caught in a filter holding posts pending review to protect against “malicious intent” from “first time posters”. This post is partially a test to see if I can get anything through, partially to point out to anyone monitoring the folder that I have been posting (from the same e-mail, under my real name) for several years, and partially, if this post actually goes through, to see if anyone else has encountered this problem.
// Darren, I’d never heard that story. That’s classic.
I’m amazed that EVERYONE didn’t threaten to sue SNL after that foolishness. //
I imagine most people have a better sense of humor then Cher obviously does. BTW there’s one other person SNL cannot make fun of for legal reason, Fred Silverman. Silverman was in charge of NBC for a while during SNL’s early years and was made fun of a lot, first by John Belusi and then, (even naster) by Al Franken. Franken did a bit on weekend update where he pointed out that Silverman had not added any hit shows for the last two seasons and yet got a new car as part of his salery, Franken asked viewers to write and call Silverman and tell him that he should give his car to Franken because at least Franken was on a hit show, (arguably the only hit show NBC had at the time). Viewers did, by the tons. Siverman was not amused, when he left NBC, under not so plesent circumstances, part of his package was that SNL could never again mention his name.
Well, that post got through. Maybe something about the quotations in my lost post is messing things up…
Bill Mulligan – you mentioned Bill Mantlo’s use of the Harlan Ellison story “Soldier” without the proper credit. That rang a bell with me, and I was able to find at least a partial answer in my back issues. In the letters page of Incredible Hulk #289, “The Editors” used a bold-typed yellow box to acknowledge Ellison and apologize to him and his fans, blaming a “last-minute mix-up” on his missing credit from the front page of Incredible Hulk #286. Several lines of copyright info for “Soldier” were also printed. If (either of my attempts at) my previous post gets out of the hold-and-check folder, you can read the entire text of what they wrote (or, if you want, I can try typing it out again). But anyway, that’s what I know of Marvel’s fulfilling of “a promise of future credit”.