A message buried deep in the Bush thread asked me to comment on Dan Didio’s various assertions about “Young Justice” in a Heroes Con interview quoted on Newsarama. First he complained about the quality of the book’s sales, stating that a book which features such iconic characters should have far higher numbers. And second he asserted that “Slobo” ruined the character of Lobo.
The aspect that Dan perpetually leaves out of his two-part evisceration of “Young Justice” is that YJ was specifically designed to appeal to a younger readership. That was the mandate from editorial. That’s what I was asked to write. YJ was intended to skew young–in its stories, in its subject matter, in its readership–with the notion that it would draw in younger readers who would eventually “graduate” to the older-skewing titles. I was told at the outset that DC neither expected nor needed the book to sell huge numbers; it was aiming at the long-term goal of bringing in new, younger readers. So his complaining about the quality of the sales is irrelevant…not to mention that YJ outsold “Impulse” and “Superboy,” both of which were also cancelled, and even he admits the book was turning a profit. So pointing to these iconic characters–characters so “iconic” that DC did away with them–and complaining that sales didn’t reflect their presence is really beside the point.
As for Slobo, I wanted to introduce a Wolverine-esque character to stir things up. Since the book featured junior versions of Superman, Batman, and the Flash, a junior version of Lobo seemed perfectly appropriate. A character who was, in his execution and handling, far more serious than Dan remotely gives him credit for (because, y’know, having Slobo go slowly blind was such a knee-slapper of a storyline). And, frankly, I think that a company that raped and murdered Sue Dibny, murdered Blue Beetle, tortured and crippled Batgirl, and had both Superman and Wonder Woman at various times cold-bloodedly murder opponents, doesn’t get to say that *I* ruined one of their characters.
PAD
• 
I don’t know if Young Justice worked to lead in younger readers but it certainly brought me in when a friend sat me down with the complete run and told me to read it. I’d been hovering on the outskirts, trying to make sense of Flash and all the Bat-titles and work out what was what with all the angst, and then YJ was there and it just worked.
Hëll, I even mentioned it as one of my all-time favourite comic runs to Sequential Tart.
The proof is in the box-office. If you can’t beat the SECOND weekend gross of an execrable, one joke Marlon Wayans comedy…Well Dude, I don’t care if your film cost only 5 million to make or not– your core fans are deserting you if you can’t beat the second weekend of a Marlon Wayans craptacular.
As a fan of YJ, in particular one who was not part of the target demographic (I was in my mid-late 20’s at the time the book was published)I’d like to chime in. After YJ was cancelled, I tried to read Teen Titans, and found myself disliking it. Partially it was because some of the best characters (like Secret, or Arrowette) were gone, but it was also because Geoff Johns took one of my favorite characters, Impulse, and ruined him. No longer was Impulse a candidate for ritalin (much as I myself had been when I was younger), no longer was he unable to sit still for more than five seconds (as I myself was, and indeed still find myself), and he stopped playing those video games all the time, (which I find myself doing to this day, having been weaned on Pac-man and Donkey Kong Jr.). No, suddenly he wants respect, so he completely changes his identity. I dropped the book a few months later, occaisionally dropping in, and dropping the book again.
Anyway, thanks to PAD for the memories. And to Mark Waid for inventing Impulse.
I wish people would stop giving me MORE reasons to hate Kevin Smith, because, you know… what am I supposed to do with that?
Writing young adult stuff that’s still enjoyable for grown-ups? Hard. YJ managed to pull it off pretty consistently, which is really, really impressive. That said, it’s not so much in line with DC’s usual style, so I can see why a lot of fans wouldn’t like it. It seems it was a series you either loved or hated; I was the former but I can see why a lot of people would be the latter — not as a reflection on the quality of the comic, but just because the style is so drastically different from most of DC’s other stuff.
I have to say that if the goal of YJ was to bring in new readers — well, it did succeed in my case, but only to leave me sorely disappointed by where the characters went afterwards (case in pont: poor Anita, who may as well have vanished off the face of the earth). Oh, Peter, we miss you so, particularly we fans of the female members of the team.
I really liked “Young Justice” because the jokes were fast and funny but could easily give way to absolutely heartbreaking drama. The school shooting story touched me, Red Tornado’s daughter being assaulted by classmates disturbed me, and Robin trying to be Secret’s friend while keeping his distance held my attention. I really enjoyed all of Impulse’s antics. I thought Peter David’s Robin was note-perfect.
I bought the first trade paperback of Geoff Johns’ “Titans,” and it wasn’t to my taste. The dialogue didn’t really have any slap or cleverness to it, the plot was a fairly straightforward Titans versus Deathstroke story without any real points of innovation or drama. It was a very square superhero comic. Well-illustrated, perfectly competent, and it felt like eating cardboard. Nothing against Johns, who seems a very nice guy, but he strikes me as old school and I don’t have much interest in that anymore.
SER: She was depicted as having crossed a line, so DC at least went to a lot of trouble to “wreck” the character. It was the whole point of the story in a way.
Luigi Novi: If by crossing a line you mean that she did something she should not have, I disagree. I don’t see anything “wrecked” about her, nor do I see any trouble to which DC went to do so. The point of the story, as I saw it, is that sometimes even heroes have to make hard choices. She did what she had to do, and I haven’t heard a single argument that has convinced me that she was wrong. Sometimes taking a life is necessary.
Steven: Which makes pretty much everyone else in the DCU an idiot then.
I heard about the story, saw the set-up where she *had* to kill Max Lord to prevent him from killing millions and I thought, “if she did that in the real world, they’d pin a metal on her.” Instead, Superman (Superman!) is giving her crap about hereos not killing under any circumstances.
Funny how Silver Age LOSH comics say it’s alright for non-invulnerable characters to kill in self-defense or to kill in order to preserve life, but modern, “sophisticated” comics don’t seem to make this distinction.
But I don’t think that’s really the issue. If we accept the conceit that these are children’s characters, then we probably *shouldn’t* have them kill, just to bring down the level of violence… but it’s been so long since Wonder Woman’s audience was primarily children that you wonder what the deal is.
Instead, the fans and pros *cling* to this little shred of childhood morality (which they kinda misremembered) and declare that *real* heroes don’t kill… never mind Luke Skywalker or Indiana Jones or John Wayne’s numerous cowboy heroes or the Fellowship of the Rings or the soldiers we praise on the nightly news or so many others. It’s just a ridiculous notion and I marvel that so many comic writers seem to willingly place themselves in this little never-neverland that’s too adult to be childish and too childish to be adult. If you don’t want your heroes to kill, then *don’t* go there… don’t make a big deal out of it, just *don’t* have them kill. Don’t talk endlessly about the *line* that *must* not be crossed… just don’t cross it.
Young Justice was great. It brought me back to comics when I was nearly lost from the hobby. It was consistently entertaining for about five years. It’s probably among my all-time favorite comic books.
As far as I’m concerned, Didio can talk all he wants. He did his thing. He made his little business decision and brought in big Titans numbers. I’m glad that paid off for him. The real deal is with the fans. Young Justice developed a cult following that still praises the book two years after it was cancelled and seven years after it was launched. I’ve encountered YJ fans in places on the ‘net I didn’t expect to find them (cartoon sites, ’80s nostalgia sites, etc). Everytime it comes up at Newsarama, there are fans to sing its praises. YJ isn’t one of those books that was “sort of” popular and then forgotten. It’s got a loyal cult following and that’s more than can be said for a number of comic book series from around that time.
About the “ruining” of Superman and Wonder Woman:
–SUPERMAN: For those who don’t know, in this John Byrne story arc “our” Superman was transported to a world where three uber-powerful Kryptonians had basically destroyed the planet Earth. Superman stopped them by exposing them to gold kryptonite, they vow they’ll get their powers back and destroy his planet. Superman announces that, with no one else left on Earth, it’s up to him (Superman) to act as judge, jury, and executioner, then exposes the Kryptonians to green kryptonite until they die. In my opinion, this (temporarily) ruined the character: Part of the strength of Superman is that he never kills, no matter what. If he killed because the opponents might continue to commit crimes, almost every one of his villains would be dead by now. (Does he really think catching Luthor would keep Luthor on the straight and narrow? Or that Parasite or Metallo won’t snuff any civilians that get in their way?) They tried to “redeem” Superman by giving him a mental breakdown (developing a 2nd personality and having him become Gangbuster for a while) and having him realize that murder is bad (duh), but if you accept that as part of continuity, he’s still guilty of first-degree murder.
–Wonder Woman: I’ve had a problem with this one. WW has Max Powers bound and asks how he can be stopped; Max answers “Kill me;” and she does. Now what if Max forced her to kill him? He wanted to expose the dangers supers posed to ordinary people, and by killing himself through her (the killing was broadcast around the planet) he became a martyr and supers became viewed as killers. Anyone know/read subsequently if Wonder Woman was being controlled or if she knew she was killing him?
Hmmm. If you are a fan of YOUNG JUSTICE, you should be picking up Peter’s X FACTOR. It has a lot of the same dynamic and is a fun read, too.
I’m not about to get into the “ruined characters” debate, but I will say this:
First, I absolutely loved Young Justice. Still one of my favorite runs to bring up an read every few years. I also had a problem with changing Bart into Kid Flash, but as I’m not so invested in the Flash books, I took it in stride, and continue to read and enjoy the Teen Titans book today.
On Dan DiDio: half of what he has to say makes me want to give him a hug, and the other half makes me want to smack him. I could say the same of Joe Q. Neither got their jobs by being either soft-spoken or overly tactful. Unfortunately, this means they’re going to say and do things that pìšš øff the fans and the creators. But they both have very clear visions of where their characters and their companies should be, and it’s this vision and their willingness to piss people off that makes them successful.
On the other hand, one of DC’s biggest mistakes of the last ten years was firing Peter David in favor of Erik Larsen, and then subsequently cancelling every book PAD worked on since then. I have no idea if DiDio had any involvment in the Aquaman decision, but it seems he had a direct hand in both YJ and Supergirl. I also feel they should have come right out and said that YJ (and Devin Grayson’s “Titans” for that matter) was cancelled to make way for a Teen Titans book that whose characters more closely mirrored the TV show. It probably would have gone a long way toward easing the animosity some fans and creators might feel, but who knows?
And, as to “ruining” Lobo…well, really, how can anybody truly ruin Lobo? It’s frelling LOBO for God’s sake!
Anyway, that’s what I think.
If you can’t beat the SECOND weekend gross of an execrable, one joke Marlon Wayans comedy…Well Dude, I don’t care if your film cost only 5 million to make or not– your core fans are deserting you if you can’t beat the second weekend of a Marlon Wayans craptacular.
I’m pretty sure CLERKS 2 will beat LITTLE MAN this weekend but boy, talk about setting the bar low!
It’s been an ugly weekend at the boxoffice for 3 big name directors. Shyamalan’s LADY IN THE WATER was the dud people have been predicting (ironically, the woman who passed on the script at Disney, a descision that looks pretty wise right about now, got canned; Ivan Reitman continues a 10 year drought of good movies with MY SUPER EX-GIRLFRIEND and Smith’s CLERKS 2 will be lucky to clear 10 million (which, admittedly, will make it profitable in its first week. Smith’s movies never make more than 30 million or so in domsestic B.O. so as long as he keeps the budgets below 10 million I guess it’s ok.)
Meanwhile MONSTER HOUSE was quite fun (don’t take Caroline! Definitely not for small kids, unless they’ve grown up in my home, in which case there is little hope for them anyway). I also caught up with KISS KISS BANG BANG on pay per view which was an unexpected surprise–I don’t know how I let that one slip through, since it’s the kind of thing I like.
No amount of movie going can make up for not being in San Diego. Ðámņ! What a convention! Looking at it on G4 makes me weep with envy.
Re: Young Justice.
Over here in Germany, Young Justice succeeded in dragging in younger readers. In the German addition, they added reviews about video games, films and whatnot, but I think what really had the (mostly young) readers come back were the stories by Peter (and Todd DeZago. His Impulse run was used as backup stories in Young Justice). Mission accomplished. Teen Titans doesn’t have the sales YJ had.
Re: Wonder Woman.
Wonder Woman is not a warrior. She is an ambassador of peace. Ambassadors of peace don’t kill.
Re: Aquaman.
Peter David wrote a great run. Dan Jurgens wrote a great run. No other writer (including Grant Morrison, Mark Waid and other favourites) ever made the character interesting to me. No, wait, he was great on the Super Best Friends episode of South Park.
Kevin Smith obviously misunderstood Peter’s review of Mallrats, took it personally and overreacted. Same thing happened to me a few times in the past as well. But to still carry a grudge years later and call another writer a “motherf***er”? That’s even more childish than I expect of Smith.
Re: Lobo
There are exactly three Lobo stories that I like. Lobo/Mask. Lobo/Hitman. And the Lil’ Lobo/Slobo issues of Young Justice. Make of that what you will.
Argh. I shouldn’t post around 2 am. Make that the German “edition”, not “addition”.
*sigh*
Dido is an idiot. HIs most creative idea is to steal concepts from the media to try and pump up sales, and, even worse, return to the thrilling days of the silver age of comics. I grew up and read comics in the silver age, but I also know I, nor the comics, can go back again. DC’s sales are doing well at the moment, just as Marvel’s did when they re-launched all their series, but I have a feeling that they will start sinking as storylines that have no meaning nor direction slowly turn the readers off. As of this point I have cancelled Superman, Action, and Aquaman off my pull list. Nightwing (It hurts because I so love the character), Outsiders, and Wonder Woman are in the tentative pile and may not make it through another month. Dido hasn’t a clue.
Loved the work Johns and Busiek did on Superman. Loved the work James Robinson(sic?) and Paul Dini did on Batman. Enjoyed the Shadowpact. Birds of Prey is also on my list. That being said, I totally and utterly disagree with Didio’s take on Young Justice. I loved (and still love) that series – apart from the great humor, the characters were also beautifully written. It still remains my favourite comic book series of all time, because it encapsulates everything I enjoy about comic books.
I thoroughly enjoy reading Geoff Johns work on both Green Lantern and Superman, but I felt both he and Didio completely missed the point on Teen Titans. Just because characters grow older doesn’t mean that they need to become disillusioned and cynical. And that’s what these characters have become.
It was PAD’s writing of Young Justice and Supergirl that got me into DC comics in the first place, and the relaunches of both titles, along with their majorly confusing crossovers like Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis, and 52 that eventually drove to only buy Marvel comics again (and Fallen Angel, when IDW remembers to ship my subscription).
PAD, you and YJ are simply fantastic. You are the writer who got me into comics again. I had avoided since I was seven because one of my first comics, which my older brother gave to me for Christmas, involved Venom brutally murdering a little old lady who looked just like my next door neighbour. Then, one day on the internet, I came across a site dedicated to your version of Supergirl. I was fascinated and the Idea of intelligent comics stuck in my mind. Later, I encountered YJ on Scans_Daily and was inspired to buy almost all of them on Ebay. I was hooked. From there I accumulated your entire run on Supergirl and the first sixteen issues of Fallen Angel. I started getting your X-Factor and Fallen Angel(I’ve pre-ordered the trade but haven’t found #6 yet) and I still am in love with your style of writing. You don’t write down to your readers and I love that. You brought me into the wonderful world of comics after twelve years of indifference and I owe you the world for that. Dan Didio can say what he wants but to me you are forever one of comic’s giants. I just wanted to say thank you and tell you what an impact you’ve had on me.
Your Loyal Fan,
William
I wrote:
If you can’t beat the SECOND weekend gross of an execrable, one joke Marlon Wayans comedy…Well Dude, I don’t care if your film cost only 5 million to make or not– your core fans are deserting you if you can’t beat the second weekend of a Marlon Wayans craptacular.
Bill Mulligan responded:
I’m pretty sure CLERKS 2 will beat LITTLE MAN this weekend but boy, talk about setting the bar low!
And then proceeded to write in the SAME post:
“It’s been an ugly weekend at the boxoffice for 3 big name directors. Shyamalan’s LADY IN THE WATER was the dud people have been predicting (ironically, the woman who passed on the script at Disney, a descision that looks pretty wise right about now, got canned; Ivan Reitman continues a 10 year drought of good movies with MY SUPER EX-GIRLFRIEND and Smith’s CLERKS 2 will be lucky to clear 10 million (which, admittedly, will make it profitable in its first week. Smith’s movies never make more than 30 million or so in domsestic B.O. so as long as he keeps the budgets below 10 million I guess it’s ok.)”
Gee, Bill… If you can look up the grosses for LADY IN THE WATER, MY SUPER EX-GIRLFRIEND and CLERKS II… Then I am absolutely sure that you saw that Wayans LITTLE MAN is projected to gross $11,000,000… $1,375,000 MORE than Clerks II projected gross of $9,625,000.
In short, you are wrong.
If you accept the projected grosses for the other (3) films then you should also accept the project gross for LITTLE MAN.
And I never said or intimated that Clerks II wouldn’t make money. I didn’t even go there. With a $5 million budget, the movie will most assuredly make LOTS of money. This 1st weekend gross just proves that Peter was right all those years ago… Smith’s audience is maturing (probably planning to buy the film on DVD or watch it on cable) while the kids– who drive the movie marketplace– are basically asking “Kevin who?”
And about Kevin Smith’s nasty attacks on Peter’s work– I don’t blame Kevin as much as I do DC.
Kevin has shown time and again that he will attack almost anyone who he perceives to hold the barest of criticisms or grudges against him or his work… and will continue his attacks to the point of absurdity.
So he thought Peter attacked him in an old BID column in CBG. So he counter-attacked.
But the Powers That Be at DC decided to PRINT and REPRINT Kevin’s diatribes.
I find it GHASTLY that DC would allow one creator to BESMIRCH another creator– while writing the Foreward to yet another creator’s book. If I had been one of the creators who had been lucky enough to have Kevin promote my work with a Foreward– I would have been dismayed and appalled that Kevin then used that space to attack another creator’s work.
So in my mind, DC bears the brunt of my disgust for exposing Kevin’s ire for Peter in THEIR mass distributed Trade Paperbacks… Especially since Peter has been responsible for making DC a tremendous amount of money during his career… and has NEVER once used DC’s paper and ink to attack Kevin Smith.
Mea culpa insideman, I just looked at the chart at http://boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/?sortdate=2006-07-21&p=.htm which had CLERKS 2 in 4th place and LITTLE MAN in 6th. Oddly, though they have all three days estimated they seem to be ranking them only by Friday’s estimates. So you are correct, LITTLE MAN will beat CLERKS 2. What’s even worse is that CLERKS 2 saw its ticket sales go down each day, indicating poor word of mouth (ditto LADY IN THE WATER).
And I didn’t mean to imply you thought that it wouldn’t make any money.
I take no pleasure in Smith failing; I find him very funny. His anti-PAD thing has always puzzled me and his explanation seems rather weak. At any rate, I think the movie business is a bad place to be if you take criticism that badly. I mean what the hëll, you get to make movies with your friends and become famous and marry a girl who a few years back you would have thought was out of your league. The man should be whistling zippity doo dah out his bûŧŧhølë.
Wonder Woman is not a warrior. She is an ambassador of peace.
The two are not mutually exclusive, especially when the character in question is an AMAZON, by definition a mythical female warrior.
As for the death of Maxwell Lord:
It had been established earlier in the story arc that Big Blue’s psyche is such a mess around the mental trauma of having executed the Kryptonian criminals that neither J’onn or Zatanna could risk any tinkering, lest they end up with a comatose or completely berzerk Superman. Superman had broken Wonder Woman’s wrist, and she was out of tricks. Lord, under the influence of the Golden Lasso, promised that he would continue to use Superman to wreak havok and kill, and that even if kept sedated somehow, he would use any moment of consciousness to cause countless deaths. The only way to prevent it was to kill him. That, combined with the fact that she had about 2.5 seconds before Superman recovered enough to waltz over and turn her in to Wonder Grease-Smear, led her to make the only decision she could to save countless lives.
-Rex Hondo-
What I found hilarious was that, not even a WEEK after reading that Preacher intro, I read an Erik Larsen letter page where he slammed Smith the exact same way (for killing Mysterio).
Hëll with it. Every creator has another creator they don’t like personally. Every creator has a creative deicison they don’t agree with. Aside from the morbid fascination of watching them fight (I’m addicted to Byrne stories), fans shouldn’t let it concern them.
PAD,
Given the ending of FNS, I find this whole discussion ironic. I thought the ending was out of character. (I will refrain from defending why since you have not started a thread on that topic and I don’t want to ruin anything for those who have not read it.)
Since the only DC comics I ever regularly bought were your Aquaman and Supergirl, I have only heard of the story lines you mention. I’ll stick to X-Factor (your best work right now) and leave the DC to others.
Iowa Jim
Instead, the fans and pros *cling* to this little shred of childhood morality (which they kinda misremembered) and declare that *real* heroes don’t kill…
Well said, Steven. The idea that there are not times when lethal force is needed is absurd. Whether it is Captain America, Superman, or an American soldier, in a real world there are times when lethal force is the only option. Yes, I do mean “only.” In a comic book world where Superman can fly faster than a speeding bullet, you can have the illusion it is not necessary. But to make such a big deal about Wonder Woman is frankly condesending to an adult reader. (I have not read the book but just summaries, but it really doesn’t matter. The premise is flawed.)
That said, I am not interested in body counts. I *want* there to be a better way. I want Wonder Woman, whenever possible, to find a better way. But to say that killing one person in what is clearly self defense as well as saving the lives of others (as I understand the story) is wrong is laughable. No wonder DC has never kept me reading its books.
Take a different example: Green Lantern. That is a story where it *was* wrong for him to kill. I read the recent miniseries that tried to undo the damage, but I still find the character ruined for me.
Iowa Jim
Peter David: He felt that, in my BID review of “Mallrats,” I wasn’t positive *enough* in my comments on the film.
Luigi Novi: Oh my god, is that that reason he took all those swipes? Geez, if so, what a little kid. I never read your review of it, but it was hardly his best effort. That movie felt as if he had become an enfant terrible with the success of his first film. The fact that I had so much trouble finding it on home video (by contrast both Clerks AND Chasing Amy were easy to find) should tell him something.
What’s interesting is that Smith’s comments about Mallrats’ performance is one of the examples I think of when I think about how no one talks about bad writing in Hollywood. He claims it did bad because it was the second film, and something to the effect that second films always get such a bad rap. Yeah, never mind about Empire Strikes Back, Star Trek II, The Godfather part II, Die Hard II, etc.
Ibrahim Ng: Smith versus PAD: “>http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/rage/97590426713192.htm
Luigi Novi: Again, geez, what a little kid. Just because Peter pointed out that he doesn’t like Animal House-type fair as much now as he did when he was in college? Christ, it’s common knowledge that adults tend to like juvenile fair when they get older.
And as far as “condescending” is concerned, I’ve never gotten that from his column. It’s been my observation that people tend to simply resent those who choose their words carefully, and end up not painting themselves into a corner with their mouth, and that accusations like “condescending”—which they never illustrate with examples, mind you—is just their knee-jerk response.
For him to have wasted so much time and paper taking pot shots at Peter—not for to express some sociopolitical point of view, but just for his not liking a movie enough or for conducting himself well in his column—is really mind-numbingly dumb.
Steven Clubb: Instead, the fans and pros *cling* to this little shred of childhood morality (which they kinda misremembered) and declare that *real* heroes don’t kill… never mind Luke Skywalker or Indiana Jones or John Wayne’s numerous cowboy heroes or the Fellowship of the Rings or the soldiers we praise on the nightly news or so many others. It’s just a ridiculous notion and I marvel that so many comic writers seem to willingly place themselves in this little never-neverland that’s too adult to be childish and too childish to be adult. If you don’t want your heroes to kill, then *don’t* go there… don’t make a big deal out of it, just *don’t* have them kill. Don’t talk endlessly about the *line* that *must* not be crossed… just don’t cross it.
Luigi Novi: Bravo, Steven! Well said. 🙂
Michael Heide: Wonder Woman is not a warrior. She is an ambassador of peace. Ambassadors of peace don’t kill.
Luigi Novi: She’s also a warrior. Ambassadors—that is, people who are only ambassadors—do not carry shields and eagle-motif battle armor and a big friggin’ swords. She’s an “ambassador” in the same way that Batman is just a “billionaire industrialist” and Superman is only a “reporter.”
Just a few thoughts I’ve had rambling around in my head.
First off, Peter, while DiDio’s comments were certainly out of line, I would hope that after standing back and taking a deep calming breath, you’d probably see that sniping back at DC in general for one man’s ill-considered remarks is hardly fair, especially making comments about “ruining” characters.
I, personally, dislike talking about creators “ruining” characters/titles/franchises. It reeks a little too much of talifan thinking, a sense of entitlement that says my opinion of what a character should be is somehow more valid than the ones creating him/her. (Iowa Jim, I’ll give you a pass for saying “ruined for me.” It’s a fine distinction and I appreciate that you qualified it such. But I’ll be keeping my eye on you. 😛 )
Each of the examples cited in the initial post became an important story element. They’re all hotly debated, and likely will be for some time. Hëll, Superman’s execution of the Kryptonian criminals was a good two decades ago.
The important thing to remember, in my humble estimation, is that in each of those instances, the writers took a chance to do something different, to take characters places they hadn’t gone before. Let’s remember, real people don’t always react the same way in every situation, or even in the same situation at a different time. There are so many forces at work in our lives that we just aren’t that consistent, and when a fictional character is robotically consistent in their actions and reactions, the suspension of belief breaks down and the stories just become retreads of each other.
It’s true, when taking chances, there is by necessity the occasional misstep, and you’re NEVER going to please everybody at once, especially when dealing with such iconic characters. However, if you don’t take those chances, characters become stagnant and stories grow stale.
It is worth noting that a willingness to take those chances, to have bad things happen to good and even beloved characters is one of the elements that draws many people to the work of a certain writer of stuff we all know and love.
-Rex Hondo-
Young Justice was one of the last DC comics I enjoyed, and I was 45 when I read it. It didn’t ruin characters or underperform so much as it didn’t pander to the mášŧûrbáŧìøņ fantasies of thirteen year old boys. I still miss that title and Impulse.
As for Lobo, you can’t ruin a character that was a trainwreck to start with. You can only improve it.
And as for Dan Didio, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Dan Didio is an ášš.
Since the future is now, it appears to me that YJ was cancelled with Infinite Crisis in mind; the “we’re doing it to match the cartoon” watch just a smoke-and-mirrors excuse. It’s too bad that they didn’t inlcude PAD in it, but they already had their trinity, Geoff Johns, Judd Winick, and Mark Waid, in place.
So you are correct, LITTLE MAN will beat CLERKS 2.
Which is sad and disturbing, imo.
The Wayans Bros have no shame when it comes to absolutely craptacular films, and apparently neither do audiences. 🙂
Just curious…is it possible to have enjoyed Young Justice and also like the Teen Titans series? Seems like you have to choose sides here….
While I unfortunately missed out on Young Justice (it came out during a time when I was too cash-poor to do anything other than drop by a newstand and keep my runs of “Uncanny” and “Adjectiveless” X-Men more or less complete), I have to say that regardless of the quality of the “L’il Lobo/Slobo” story in YJ, Lobo is what ruined Lobo. The series of miniseries steadily declined in quality that by the time they got around to the monthly, it was such unreadable dreck that I just wasn’t interested in him anymore.
As for the Kevin Smith debate, I’ve enjoyed his movies, but my mileage has varied insofar as his comic writing. If lopping off a character’s hand is “sensationalistic crap writing,” then what, pray tell, is senselessly killing a title’s major supporting character (after giving her AIDS)? Oh no, I’m sure that the death of Karen Page wasn’t at *all* “sensationalistic”…
Hello, Pot? This is Kettle. Guess what?
That said, PAD, I can’t wait to see what you can do with the ungodly mess that Smith made out of Mysterio…
I was actually more upset over the way the ruined max Lord’s character than over what Wonder Woman did. What she did was a natural extension fo the situation. What Max did went against years of character development.
Oh, and Clerks II did better per screen than Little Man, it was just released on fewer screens (which I guess says how much faith they had in it from the beginning). Not defending Smith for what he said re: PAD (very childish, and remembering the stuff that Jemas and Quesada did it makes his Marvel tenure that much more fitting with them), just making some observations about the weekend’s box office.
“Just curious…is it possible to have enjoyed Young Justice and also like the Teen Titans series? Seems like you have to choose sides here….”
No, it’s completely possible. I’m enjoying the “One Year Later” stuff a fair bit myself. Not as much as YJ, but still enjoying it. Comic fans just like to create rivalries.
PAD
They canceled it for one reason and one reason only: To relaunch “Teen Titans” so that they could tie in with the new animated series. A series which was, ironically, in tone and style, influenced by “Young Justice.”
And that’s one reason I’ll never read a Teen Titans* comic (unless, ya know, PAD writes it). Since I feel PAD’s “Supergirl” was also canned simply because they decided to do a different series, I’m not reading any future “Supergirl” titles, either.
Sure…it might not be fair to the creators of the new series and I might end up missing some good stuff, but it’s not like I can read ‘everything’ anyway. One reason for not picking up a new title is just as valid as any other reason to me.
(*not that big a threat – not being a big fan of team books, I don’t think I’ve *ever* read a Titans book)
then what, pray tell, is senselessly killing a title’s major supporting character (after giving her AIDS)? Oh no, I’m sure that the death of Karen Page wasn’t at *all* “sensationalistic”…
As I remember it, Karen didn’t really have AIDS. She just thought she did; it was a ruse by Mysterio.
Speaking of “Sensationalistic, crap writing”, you guys just reminded me…
What does he call having the Black Cat drugged and raped by a mutant crime-boss in that gawdawful mini series that took him 2 years to finish?
Victor: If I remember correctly, Mysterio was a little vague on that point. Still, the AIDS thing (whether “real” or “fabricated”) seemed to be a desperate grab for attention by making it appear that a noteworthy character had a “buzzworthy” disease.
Re: Clerks 2 box office. Someone did point out this weekend that opening it the weekend of, y’know, San Diego Comic-Con, ain’t exactly going to help the first weekend box office (yeah, let’s say 10,000 people who would’ve gone to see it at $10 a pop don’t go, it’s still only $100,000 box office gross).
As it happens, a co-worker of mine was playing poker in Vegas a few weeks ago when someone who he thought “had that whole Silent Bob style going on” sat down at his table. He commented on this. A few minutes later, his girlfriend came up and pointed out that the new player was in fact Kevin Smith. My co-worker apologized (having made the style comment out loud), and said that Smith was nothing but kind and polite about it and they had a nice conversation. Just a data point.
>>>They canceled it for one reason and one reason only: To relaunch “Teen Titans” so that they could tie in with the new animated series. A series which was, ironically, in tone and style, influenced by “Young Justice.”
I’ll just note that the last issue of YJ (#55, 3/03) sold approximately 24k copies.
TEEN TITANS #1 (7/03) sold approximately 75k.
The most recent issue of TT (#36) came in at 71k.
Regardless of the “tone” of Didio’s comments, it does appear that his decision was the correct one FOR THE FRANCHISE — sales have about TRIPLED in the rebranding/repositioning, and have stayed high ever since.
-B
Speaking of “Sensationalistic, crap writing”, you guys just reminded me…
What does he call having the Black Cat drugged and raped by a mutant crime-boss in that gawdawful mini series that took him 2 years to finish?
[nit]She wasn’t raped by said crime boss, but it was retconned that she was acquaintace raped in college which indirectly led her to a life of crime.[/nit]
You’re so, so, so right about critizising DC.
I’m 20, I only recently discovered YJ and it’s immediately become one of my favourite comic series ever. When it’s serious, it’s a whole dámņ lot more serious than many of those oh so dark and gritty things and when it’s funny, then it’s actually funny. It may be intended for kids, but personally, I wish more comics were like YJ, less violent and less sexist than most other comics. It was a good series, and sweet and honest, and that counts more than sales.
(yeah, let’s say 10,000 people who would’ve gone to see it at $10 a pop don’t go, it’s still only $100,000 box office gross).
Well, yeah, SDCC isn’t going to be a factor unless you’re a limited release film only opening in San Diego that weekend. 🙂
What?? Young Justice ruined characters? Well now Superboy’s dead, Impulse is adult-aged and sullenly withdrawn, not to mention losing anything that’s ever distinguished him from generi-Flash, and Wonder Girl’s switching between being a cultist (52) and rebounding to Robin (OYL).
Loved YJ, and it got my wife into comics. And we weren’t kids…
“Regardless of the “tone” of Didio’s comments, it does appear that his decision was the correct one FOR THE FRANCHISE — sales have about TRIPLED in the rebranding/repositioning, and have stayed high ever since.”
Sales are hard to argue with. However, there are still unknowns. What if Young Justice had been renamed “Teen Titans (of Young Justice)” and they’d added a couple of characters to make the roster closer to what was on the show. The feel of YJ is very similar to the TV show. Maybe that would have raised sales more, maybe less. Getting Teen Titans onto a cover has definitely worked, but there might have been another way to do it.
What are the sales numbers for Teen Titans: Go?
>>>What are the sales numbers for Teen Titans: Go?
ABout 29k on issue #1 (11/03), and down to around 11k currently, on issue #32.
That’s DM only, though.
You can find sales figures at http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/1850.html
-B
Sasha wrote:
“She wasn’t raped by said crime boss, but it was retconned that she was acquaintace raped in college which indirectly led her to a life of crime.”
I was referring to the scene where he “teleported” the drugs into her body. Then while she’s helpless and strung out, he starts unzipping her costume, commenting about how some people equate the drug she was experiencing as “Better than sex”, saying that she was now going to get to find out first-hand if that’s true. Unless I’m totally misreading it, it seems like it was pretty heavily implied that he was about to rape her while she was under the influence, while that “College” sequence was shown in flashback to give a parallel to her current situation.
Either way, after that scene I was turned off from the rest of the series. Which eventually made no difference because I think the next issue came out… What, a year later?
Two years later.
For the record, said crime boss didn’t get around to doing the deed on account of a sudden case of death. (Long story.)
Sasha wrote:
“Two years later.
For the record, said crime boss didn’t get around to doing the deed on account of a sudden case of death. (Long story.)”
Ah. Okay, so I missed a bit when it finally picked up. I apologize. Regardless, I just found the original scene rather repulsive. And far more “Sensationalistic”.
OK, this is me trying really hard not to say a big “Told You So!” since I’ve been saying all this about DiDio being an ášš and Titans sucking for 3 years. In fact, just so I don’t have to go into it too much, just go do a search on the Newsarama forums. In reality the whole thing Johns did to Cassie (making her revert back to a brat just so he could “remature her”) is what turned me off to TT right off the bat. Not to mention it was just lazy writing.
My whole contention with the WonderWoman killing Max Lord is that coming from the society she does, she’d know that killing is not a good solution in any case. You only open up more conflict. Plus she was supposed to be a ambassador to show “Man’s World” the error of their ways wasn’t she?
Finally though, the real conceit that needs to be made is not whether a hero should kill but whether it’s good for a writer to put that character in that position in the first place. My motto is that a hero shouldn’t reflect us but instead embody what we want to be at our best moments.
Kevin Smith has an immature brain? Really? He still holds a grudge against Reese Witherspoon since Chasing Amy because he percieved a slight from her for his now ex-girlfriend! But he still has a good way with dialogue, so I can still enjoy his writing, the same as I enjoy PAD’s even though we don’t agree on everything.
Michael