I know it’s seemed like the Middle East has been spiralling out of control in the past. But the Israelis are now looking to be fighting a multi-front war, and that’s never good. At least they’re going about it methodically and correctly, severing the supply lines and airports to hinder troop movements. And at least Bush isn’t criticizing them (at least not at the moment) for taking action against the cretins of Hezballuh who see land give-backs, not as a sign of a desire for peace, but a show of weakness. Although he *has* stated that the Israelis should show “restraint,” and considering the actions of Bush et al in regards to Iraq, I think we’ve pretty much thrown away the “show restraint” card.
I think this thing is either going to die down very quickly or tip over into full-blown, multi-nation war very quickly. No half-measures here.
PAD
• 
Just a few comments, since this is a long thread.
1.) I feel the big “winner” with the latest developments has to be Iran. Just a few short days ago attention was on the Upcoming G-8 Summit and what those nations were going to do about their nuclear ambitions. So Iran is supporting Hezbollah and getting their nuclear ambitions off the front page. Shocking! Shocking, I say.
2.) No, I am not offended about reporters who will at least include in their reports how this affects gas prices. The Average Joe may empathize with suffering. But most feel hat a resolution is out of their control. The inability to heat your home – or fuel your car because gas has skyrocketed to $5 a gallon is a fear many don’t want to contemplate, and it is one that will affect many directly if it were to happen.
Again, not that reporters should make that the headline, but it would be IRRESPONSIBLE NOT TO include possible effects of oil prices in the coverage.
3.) Busg came out pretty strongly today about hezbollah and Syria. The presidents of both parties since at least Nixon have tried to use the “both sides are to blame” approach. Bush seems to clearly be supporting Israel.
4.) For all those who are condemning israel’s actions. they moved out of settlements in Gaza. That was painful for many. But they figured it was a small price to pay for peace. So what happens? They get attacked from the land they withdrew from! It is clear the aim of Hezbollah, Hamas, etc. is not a “Palestinian Solution” or any other kind of political solution. their only solution is to destroy Israel, which they would almost certainly do if we weren’t supporting Israel.
“Hey, El Hombre Malo, there has been much talk recently of an international peacekeping force coming to Lebanon. How do you feel about it?
“
I usually approve of international peacekeeping efforts, and those have proven quite effective in many places. But unfortunately such forces dont usually have neither the will or the freedom to cut the activities of a group like Hezbolah. Also I would like to point that there was an international force in southern Lebanon not so long ago, and IDF bombed one of their supervised refugee camps in 96, killing 109. Right now I would only put my faith in an international force that has a strong leadership and is comprised of real professional troops and not just rifle-holders. But the few nations that do have troops like that are also too politically motivated. French would simply try to appease arabs while the USA or UK wouldnt shot down an Israeli plane who breaks the cease fire limits. Maybe if China decided to start extending its influence beyond economic measures, this would be a great chance for them to do so. But now am just fantasizing.
“for many years Jews moved or ran away or were expeled from one place to another in this world. We always tried to rebuild our lives and look to the future. It is difficult for Jews to understand why Palestinians, instead of making a better future for their children, are always trying to go back to a past that no longer exists, and to which the attempt to return will bring more and more harm.
I know that many Palestinians lost their homes. I’m sorry. But giving them their homes back will cause more problems and suffering. Trying to get the homes will bring suffering. My father lost a home in Romania during WWII (I’m not saying the Holocaust because there was no great suffering in my family). And then he lost a home again when he ran away from the communists. Now he has a new home. It is important to remember the past, but we do not want to be enslaved to it. We do not want to go back. “
See, what you want these people to do is to be like you. European Jew culture was basically an urban one, not linked to the land but to crafts and bussines. Palestinians have an agricultural culture, based on land. For them it will take more than some years to forget those lost homes and working fields, because its an idiosincratic trait of their culture. An olive or fruit tree is not just bussines but heritage, an olive tree can stay in a family for hundreds of years. For centuries, when jews were forced out of one place, they moved to another because they carried all the important things with them. They were their own most prized possesion and their worth was measured in what they could do. Agricultural cultures measure worth in what you can pass to your children. Turkish or british could rule as long as they wanted because as long as this way of life wasnt attacked, palestinians didnt care. So they now carry the keys of their old houses because that is what’s left of their heritage, and they cant stop demanding their land back because that would be like saying “what our elders did was not so important after all”.
hello
– micha about the Palestinians that are already Israeli citizens what are you going to do about them when they grow in population ? have another round of expulsions?
– you ask the refugees who don’t have homes to look for another life but Israel keeps bringing Jews who have lives from all over the world and buts them in Palestinian homes .
– the best model i think is the UK where the Scots and welsh share in the sovereignty but the English control everything. and 2 or three cities should be shared cities especially Jerusalem while the rest are exclusively controlled but others can live in them according to the rules the city established , and only the ones willing to live together cane be in the shared cities while the others go to their exclusive cities.
– to Jerome the reason their is no peace is because Israel will always be backed up no mater what destruction they bring to the region.
– to Craig “But part of it is simply getting all groups involved to move past their hatred and learn to accept one another”
their are material problems like the land and refugees , if it was only feelings than fighter planes gun ships and rockets and tunnels wouldn’t be involved.
“buts them in Palestinian homes”
meant “puts”
lorshas:
when you say “The English control everything” you sure meant “british”. Actually, with the current semy-authonomy the Scotland parlament enjoy, I’ve heard complaints that Scots can get elected to british parlament and decide on issues that affect the english, while no one but scotish chamber can decide on the same issues regarding scotland (ie: education)
I am not surprised that Americans find the idea of a Jewish state difficult to understand, living in the ‘new world’. Isael is a creation of the ‘old world’.
Here is the thing. Jews wanted a to have a Jewish nation state they way Arabs have Arab states, French have a French state, Spain a Spanish state (and the Basque sought their own Basque nation-state or automnomy), Irish Ireland, Italians Italy, Russians, Japan and so on. European and even non-European modern nation states are mostly based on people who have a shared cultural, linguistic, historical, ethnic (sometimes), and even religious culture (Irish-Catholicism, Greek-Orthodoxy, Tibetan -Budhism, Armenian-Christianity). These countries may have cultural minorities (immigrants or native) who are or at least should be treated with equality and their culture respected, yet the existence or the need of the majority of the people for such cultural homes is not questioned.
In fact, even in this day and age we see cultural sub groups trying to obtain for themselves at least a certain level of autonomy in not independent states of their own: the Basques and the Catalans in Spain, Corsica in France, the Walloons and the Flemes of Belgium created seperate institutions for the two linguistic groups, in Britain we saw the devolution of Scotland and Wales, Chechoslovakia broke down to the Check Republic and Slovakia, the Soviet Union collapsed into nation-states, in North Africa we see the Berbers reasserting their unique national culture and language. And these are the places where it happens peacefully. You know of Yugoslavia, Chechniya, Sri-Lanka, the Kurds as examples for places where there is conflict between a majority national culture and a minority.
Furthermore, we see in Europe problems related to immigration. The Europeans are asking themselves, are the immigrants simply becoming members of our German, Italian, British, Spanish culture? Or are they creating their own cultural enclaves? Should we try to assimilate tem into our culture, or do they have the right not to be assimilated?
It should also be noted that these are new questions. In the past the answer was obvious. The European nation states suppressed and try to forcebly assimilate members of cultural minorities, such as the Bretons in France, the Kurds in Turkey, the Lap in the Scandinavian countries (Norway only seperated from Sweden in 1905).
Now, to people living in the New World, in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zeeland, South American countries this might seem strange. After all your melting pot supposedly enables cultural, ethnic and racial groups to leave behind these messy identities. But let us remembver a few things. First, I assume that you Italian-American, Polish-Americans, Irish-Americans, Americans of Swede descent from Minesota, Mexican-Americans, Japanese-Americans etc. do not wish to say your old countries vanish, the cultural uniqueness eliminated. It is nice to live in the melting pot, but also nice to visit Ireland, Scotland (I have been in both those countries and their tourist undustry caters to such visits). Secondly, the New World welcomes (sometimes) the people of various diffents cultures and nationalities, but you expect them to assimilate into what is essentially an anglo-saxon (maybe even Christian) culture, unless they choose to live in cultural enclaves like Chinatown or Amish country. Thirdly, the new world won its ability to create this paradise by eliminating almost completely the ancient cultures of the native-americans and the aboriginee of Australia, the Mauri (spl?) of New Zeeland, and you can rest confident that these people will not ask to come back. Forthly, the New World is not beyond the needs of national culture: we see it in the need of the Quebequois to have a French speaking province in the otherwise Anglo-Saxon Canada; we see it in the need of African Americans to assert their own unique culture; the different Saint-Patrick parades and the Cinqo de Mayo; the friction over the degree of assimilation of hispanic immigrants; and the need of the Native Americans in the US, Canada, and South America to have their own reservations where they can persue their own culture without being swamped by the majority culture (even while others go on to live in equality as a minority inside the majority).
Israel, is like a reservation for Jews, based on the conclusion of European Jews that we need what everybody else had, a cultural home where we will be safe both from prejudice and complete cultural assimilation. There is no denying it that this meant Jews emigrating in numbers into an area that until then was culturaly part of an Arab-Muslim world (since the Arab-Muslims conquered and assimilated or marginilized the previous cultures in that region). But, we only took a small part of the Arab-Muslim world, we did not eliminate it completely; we never sought to assimilate or convert the Arab Muslims who can be secure that their own minority culture (besides its contact with the many Arabs outside Israel) will not be threatened; we came seeking to buy land for money from the Arabs, not expulsion of Arabs only happened when war errupted 1948; we did not leave our own countries like European colonists seeking riches in a new world, but went to a poor country where a marginalized Jewish community existed, and to which we had a known longstanding connection; we had a real need for a cultural home and we had nowhere else, there are no other Jewish countries, everywhere else the Jews were a minority, sometimes doing better sometimes worst, but always a minority, going anywhere else for this project would have been less justified; we deliberatly pick a small area and withdrew from parts of the ancient land of Israel so that we can be a majority and extend full rights to an Arab minority rather than rule undemocratically over an Arab majority.
So, was it fair thathe Arabs loose a part of the Arab lands? No. But there has been many greater in recent human history. Is the desire of the Jews to have a Jewish state opposed to the wish of the Arabs that this are be an Arab state with an Arab majority and culture? Yes. But our national desires are no different than those of the Irish, the Scots, the Italians, the Germans, the Norweigans, the Indians (of India), the Arabs; in fact it is a product of the same historical process.
I appologize for the length of this post. This is a complex subject that goes beyond the issue of Israel.
Ive read a text by Shlomo Ben-Ami on the present situation here:
http://www.elpais.es/articulo/elpporopi/20060718elpepiopi_6/Tes/guerra/Israel/frentes
Again, its in spanish but I am sure there must be an english version somewhere. Interesting how he depicts Hamas as a reliable player in the zone, and on the convenience of negotiating with Ismail Hanyieh. Its not the first time I read about Hamas in such way, both from Vagas Llosa and israeli sources.
I agree with Micha’s post:
Israel responds to a national desire (wich was born in the same way as most european nationalism were born and in the same time), it’s creation was an injustice but not the biggest one around and its existence has to be aknowledged, wish some extremists in the Arab world fail to do.
(I could speak lengthy about some of the paralelisms he choose tho, but overall I agree)
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/735997.html
What Vargas llosa really said was “I dont want to end up beign ashamed to be Israel’s friend”.
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http://www.palestinechronicle.com/story-07170600448.htm
Interesting article on the precedents and ultimate goals of Lebanon operations by Uri Avnery .
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El Homber Malo is correct both on the issue of peace keeping force and the cultural differences. Palestinians have lived for generation in the same place, Jews have moved around. as a result of that we find it difficult to understand each other, despite being related. Both Palestinians and Jews had been dealt badly by history.
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“- micha about the Palestinians that are already Israeli citizens what are you going to do about them when they grow in population ? have another round of expulsions?”
About 20% of he citizens of Israel today are Arab-Palestinian. Some of then are Druze who have no problem with Jews. It is possible that in 40-50 years the Arabs will become 50% of the population of Israel if their population growth excedes that of the Jews. But, we think that in the future, as the Israeli-Palestinians receive all the benefits of living in Israel, the population growth of the Palestinians will become similar to that of Jews (which,unlike the Europeans, is not negative), and a reasonable balance of majority minority will be created; we hope that over time the bad blood, hatred and mistrust between Jews and Arabs will become less strong, so that in the future they can live together even if Jews do not have a clear majority; we hope that if Israel lives in peace than Jews wil want to come to live here, as well as maybe some people who are not Jewish and not Arab; and we hope that in the future the Jews and the Arabs wil create a joint culture, while maintaining their own identities.
“- you ask the refugees who don’t have homes to look for another life but Israel keeps bringing Jews who have lives from all over the world and puts them in Palestinian homes.”
The Palestinians lost their at one time in 48-9. New Jews being born or coming to Israel today are not taking new Palestinian homes.
The reason that Palestinian refugees don’t have a home is that after they ran away from Palestine they spend the next 50 years sitting in refugee camps dreaming of going back to their old homes, and were not allowed by the other Arabs to build new homes in the other Arab countries. During these 50 years, Jews who ran away or came from Europe or the Arab world, or the Soviet Union or eksewhere built new homes for themselves in Israel or in the other countries they got to, and the Jews in Israel helped them build the new homes (in Israel).
“- the best model i think is the UK where the Scots and welsh share in the sovereignty but the English control everything. and 2 or three cities should be shared cities especially Jerusalem while the rest are exclusively controlled but others can live in them according to the rules the city established , and only the ones willing to live together cane be in the shared cities while the others go to their exclusive cities.”
In the past the Scots and Welsh were a minority with equal rights whose countries were part of a United Kingdom controled from English London. Recently, the Scots and the Weslsh felt the need to have their own control of their internal affairs and culture with their own parliaments while remaining a part of a United Kingdoms.
In the past the Basques and the Catalans were minorities in a Spanish state controlled from Spanish-Castilian Madrid. Recently they have felt the need to have more autonomous status, but still as part of the Kingdom of Spain.
In the past, the Walloons and the Felemes of Belgium lived in once country controled from Brussles, and the Walloons were more dominant. Recently they had felt the need to seperate into a seperate Wallon and Flemish parliaments while maintaining a joint central government, and a shared Brussles.
These are nice examples. But, the Welsh do not think that he English should go away, that they do not belong, that they stole their land and they should get it back. Nor do the Catalans, Basques or Flemings. These devolved unions in Spain, Britain and Belgium are based on a certain level of trust, respect and acceptance that does not exist in Israel-Palestine. I believe that it is necessary for the Arabs and Jews to have seperate states at least for a while before trying some kind of union. As for Jerusalem, I think it should be devided, but the old city, where the religous stuff is found, should be like the Vatican, a seperate entity.
——————
There are times where I believe the US would be right to be more critical of Israel. I actually demonstrated for that when Collin Powell visited Israel. But I also think the Palestinians are naive if they think that they will get their country by the US or Europe twisting Israel’s arm. Nobody is going to solve it for us, we have to do it ourselves.
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Agian, sorry for the length.
“since the Arab-Muslims conquered and assimilated or marginilized the previous cultures in that region”
Arab christen sects are older than protestants and Catholics, and if they didn’t keep emigrating away from there region then they would have compromised more than 40 million in the region.
And the Turks have been running the Muslim world for centuries not Arabs and the Berbers are still strong after 13 centuries not to mention the Persians who adopted the religion but taught us Arabs almost everything else.
And while the world sees us Arabs as one and while wee do feel kinship to one another, we are also very deferent in our lives and would never accept submitting to another’s way, think Europe but with the same language. Scots and Irishmen may speak the Englishmen’s language but they are not the same.
And micha if Israelis make peace and a solution sound impossible then it will be impossible. Things are extreme because the Palestinians are fighting to get something for themselves not to deprive somebody else of it. The Palestinians are fighting for a chance to have a future and from what you say the Jews are fighting for someplace to call the old country.
But what is your response to “about the Palestinians that are already Israeli citizens what are you going to do about them when they grow in population? Have another round of expulsions?”
Sorry about the last part seems we are doing this at the same time.
And about the refugees if you’re waiting for the Palestinians to forget about their homes then you are being optimistic, even the ones who have settled in Jordan didn’t forget they just live on, and in the future the if the tables turn then just look at Kirkuk
– to Jerome the reason their is no peace is because Israel will always be backed up no mater what destruction they bring to the region.
Do you really believe it is merely that simple?
There is no peace, in large part, because some groups like Hamas and Hezbollah want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth; they want Jews dead, pure and simple.
The fight goes on, with fewer than 250 words suggesting that Israel is making 10 enemies for every one it captures or kills, and thousands of words explaining why Israel Is Always Right and The Arabs Should Just Get Over It.
I was going to say “a buttload of words” defending Israel instead of thousands, but I’m not sure how many a buttload is and can’t find a conversion table.
You could cut the chauvinism with a knife. Those Arabs, ya can’t live with ’em, no reasoning with some people, we warned ’em to get out of the way.
Thank you, Hombre Malo (yo soy un hombre sincero) for remembering in your posts that the Palestinians (and the Lebanese schoolkids that are dodging bombs) are people and not collateral damage:
“I might be naive, but if you know where your foes are and also know that by dropping bombs you will probably kill innocents, blaming your foes for those victims is simply perverse.”
John Mosby as well:
“the missiles aren’t presumably being aimed at specific locations where the kindapped soldiers are being held (or there’s a new type of missile on the market that only blows up kidanppers and not kidnapees), wouldn’t the more comparable example be that a bunch of ‘Most wanted’ robbers from Glendale/The Bronx commit a murder a child/rape a whole family in a neighbouring area and the police, following criticsm that they’re weak on crime – wait a couple of days and then go into Glendale/The Bronx and throw a ton of grenades down a busy street where the gang are beleived to regularly hang-out in the hope that it’ll take out some of them and put others off?”
I’m sick and tired of rationalizations that justify the death of innocent bystanders. Don’t put sugar on shite and expect me to eat it.
I agree that the Arab nations are led by monsters, but I gotta wonder: is that because every moderate gets killed, discredited or shouted down by friend and foe alike?
I was trying to illustrate a point about people’s blind spots, that Israel seems to be one of the things We Cannot Talk About without first making it clear that we are First and Foremost Friends of Israel always, always, always. It’s like trying to talk rationally about Cuban policy in Miami. I’m writing a comic book about the Middle East this summer, and Oy, vey, you should hear …
“”since the Arab-Muslims conquered and assimilated or marginilized the previous cultures in that region”
Arab christen sects are older than protestants and Catholics, and if they didn’t keep emigrating away from there region then they would have compromised more than 40 million in the region.”
Maybe they didn’t want to be a minority in Arab-Muslim countries? Before the Arab-Muslims came they were the majority.
I believe they became Arab Christians only after the Arabic became the dominant language after the conquest of the middle east.
“And the Turks have been running the Muslim world for centuries not Arabs and the Berbers are still strong after 13 centuries not to mention the Persians who adopted the religion but taught us Arabs almost everything else.”
the Berbers also became a minority in North Africa as a result of the arab invasions. The Persians lost their religion but not their national culture or their majority in Persia, but many others in the middle east lost all three or some of them.
The changing of the middle east from a Christian Byzantine area to an Arab-Muslim area happened because of the first Arab-Muslim invasion, not the Turks. The Turks did conquer Asia Minor from the Greeks and Armenians. Today the Greeks know that they cannot get Istanbul back, the armenians know that they can’t get all of old Armenia back, and the Turks know thatthey can’t get all the Othoman Empire back. They don’t like each other but tthey live in peace. I hope this will happen with Israel/Palestine too.
“And while the world sees us Arabs as one and while wee do feel kinship to one another, we are also very deferent in our lives and would never accept submitting to another’s way, think Europe but with the same language. Scots and Irishmen may speak the Englishmen’s language but they are not the same.”
I know that not all Arabs are the same. This is also true of Jews, except that we are fewer and that we accept many aspects of the culture of other countries we live in, which is why we felt it important to have a country where the ways are our ways.
“Things are extreme because the Palestinians are fighting to get something for themselves not to deprive somebody else of it.”
Thyey are fighting to have a state for themselves in Palestine, which I understand. But if they are fighting to have a state that will replace Israel completely than that I cannot accept. I want to fight so the Palestinians and the Israelis will each have a state in part of Palestine-Israel.
I also have a problem with the way the Palestinians are fighting. If the Palestinians think they will get a Palestinian state by killing Israelis, they are wrong, and if they kill Israelis, Israelis wil kill back, and then we have a whole cycle of death. The cycle will only stop if both sides stop.
“The Palestinians are fighting for a chance to have a future and from what you say the Jews are fighting for someplace to call the old country.”
No. the Americans call the countries they came from ‘Old Country’. So when an Egyptian-American talks about Egypt he says it is his old country. But when an Egyptian speaks of ‘Egypt’ its ‘his country’. For Israelis Israel is not the ‘old country’ it is ‘our country’. we fight to defend it. I believe that we Israelis can have ‘our country’and the Palestinian-Arab ‘their country’ in Palestine-Israel. I don’t know if they agree.
“And about the refugees if you’re waiting for the Palestinians to forget about their homes then you are being optimistic, even the ones who have settled in Jordan didn’t forget they just live on, and in the future the if the tables turn then just look at Kirkuk”
I don’t want to refugees to forget their homes. It is important to remember the past. I understand that. But if they want to return to their homes and destroy Israel, the result will be war, and both Jews and arabs wil die. If you think that the Arabs cannot accept that they will not go back to their old homes, if you think that they wil just continue fighting forever, than it is bad for both Jews and Arabs. It is sad, but if the Arabs continue fighting Israel will defend itself.
Poor Michael. The Jews never let anybody criticize Israel. If somebody does they start to riot. That’s why nobody anywhere ever criticizes Israel.
(I was being ironic, I hope you realize)
> their are material problems like the land and refugees , if it was only feelings than fighter planes gun ships and rockets and tunnels wouldn’t be involved.
Sure, sure. And that was the case in Northern Ireland, right? Uh, no. Lots of people were killed in terrorist activities over the years and it had nothing to do with letting refugees take their homes back.
And as for fighting those reponsible, if I were the Palistinians, I’d be seriously ticked off at my fellow Arabs, too. Maybe israel threw me out of my home, but Saudi Arabia (to name just one) has the cash to build me another. But, no, I’m on my own and ain’t gonna get help from my ‘brothers’… Yeah, I’d love that, sure. :p
Posted by michael at July 18, 2006 10:04 AM
The fight goes on, with fewer than 250 words suggesting that Israel is making 10 enemies for every one it captures or kills, and thousands of words explaining why Israel Is Always Right and The Arabs Should Just Get Over It.
I was going to say “a buttload of words” defending Israel instead of thousands, but I’m not sure how many a buttload is and can’t find a conversion table.
You could cut the chauvinism with a knife. Those Arabs, ya can’t live with ’em, no reasoning with some people, we warned ’em to get out of the way.
Ah, yes, the old “no one who disagrees with me can think for himself” argument.
Michael, the problem with applying the “10 new enemies for every existing one killed” to the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict is the context. The U.S. invaded Iraq for dubious reasons, ignoring evidence that cast into doubt the assertion that Iraq was a threat. They turned out not to be a direct threat to our security. Since we ill-advisedly and unnecessarily invaded that nation, however, they have become fertile ground for the very kinds of threats we mistakenly believed them to pose.
Israel, on the other hand, was invaded by Hezbollah and Hamas. Some Israeli soldiers were killed, and others were wounded.
After Israel began UNILATERALLY PULLING OUT OF OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, which to any rational person would have to be interpreted as a GESTURE OF PEACE, they were INVADED, which any rational person would recognize as AN ACT OF WAR.
(I’m sorry I put that in all caps. I generally consider that to be rude, but the point has been made so many times and everyone seems to keep missing it or willfully ignoring it.)
So this contstant carping about Israel perpetuating the violence, about the “chaunvinism” displayed by the United States in favoring Israel, and about the plight of the Palestinians and other Arabs omits the most salient fact about this whole mess: Israel made gestures of peace, and Hezbollah and Hamas responded with acts of war.
Israel has a right to exist as a nation. Any nation has a right and an obligation to defend its borders against naked aggression. Therefore, Israel has a right to defend itself against Hamas and Hezbollah.
The Palestinians deserve a homeland. Israel has not always dealt with the Palestinians justly. That does not give Hezbollah and Hamas the right to invade Israel with impunity.
Israel created an opportunity for advancing the peace process when they began unilaterally withdrawing from the occupied territories. Rather than seize the opportunity for further peaceful gains, groups like Hamas and Hezbollah are continuing on the only path they’ve ever known: knee-jerk violence. The idea that Israel has not tried hard enough to negotiate with them is absurd.
Israel is not perfect. I have criticized them in the past and am likely to do so again in the future. But they have a right to exist and to defend their borders.
Michael, you’ve demonstrated an aptitude for useless generalities such as “making 10 enemies for every one it captures or kills.” Can you, however, present a reasoned alternative for Israel that would allow it to protect its borders while keeping its hands completely free of blood? And can you present us with evidence that would give such an alternative credibility?
from micha
“I believe they became Arab Christians only after the Arabic became the dominant language after the conquest of the middle east.”
You believe wrong the Arab Christians where their long before and they are the ones who let the Arab Muslims in to the region .but yes there are others that adopted the language.
“I don’t want to refugees to forget their homes. It is important to remember the past. I understand that. But if they want to return to their homes and destroy Israel, the result will be war, and both Jews and arabs wil die. If you think that the Arabs cannot accept that they will not go back to their old homes, if you think that they wil just continue fighting forever, than it is bad for both Jews and Arabs. It is sad, but if the Arabs continue fighting Israel will defend itself”
If this was anywhere else maybe time will heal everything the founders of Israel made a big mistake in fulfilling their future by destroying others. I hope you don’t take it personally if some one fights to get their homes back. And don’t be angry at me because I stand by their right and I wish them well.
And don’t be angry at me because I stand by their right and I wish them well.
You know, we probably should be angry with you, because it sounds, more or less, as if you are saying that all the senseless violence is ok.
I mean, geez, how long are you guys allowed to hold a grudge here?
Jews are the most persecuted group on the planet, having been forced out of about every place they’ve ever lived, but I don’t see them seeking revenge against the Germans for World War II.
Yes, it’s tragic that the Palestinians have suffered, but guess what? So have many other groups over the millennia.
So, I just don’t get this ridiculous notion that somebody has the right to be a terrorist to get their home back, when it’s not even so much getting their home back as it is simply the supposed right to attack and kill Jews.
Posted by: lorshas at July 18, 2006 12:32 PM
from micha
If this was anywhere else maybe time will heal everything the founders of Israel made a big mistake in fulfilling their future by destroying others. I hope you don’t take it personally if some one fights to get their homes back. And don’t be angry at me because I stand by their right and I wish them well.
lorshas, there is much historical evidence that the Jewish people were wrongfully driven from their homeland in ancient times. Despite the mass expulsions, there has been some Jewish presence in your region for the last three millenia.
When Israel was established in 1948, the United Nations General Assembly proposed that Palestine be divided into two states, one Jewish and one Arab, with Jerusalem under U.N. Administration. Most Jews in Palestine accepted the proposal, most Arabs rejected it. Violence erupted, the Jews formed the state of Israel so that they could protect themselves, and now the Palestinians are without a homeland.
What you are saying is that certain people in the Arab community want everything or nothing at all: either Israel gives up everything and the Jews flee once again, or the fighting continues.
Given that Israel is not likely to acquiesce to being driven out of existence, the forces that want to destroy it have a choice: either continue the senseless violence, or attempt to fashion a compromise that will allow people to live peacefully. If certain forces in the Arab world continue to choose the former, it will do no good to point the finger at everyone else.
Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians has not been entirely just. The Palestinians deserve a homeland and self rule. But Ehud Barak offered them something very close to that by proposing to give the Palestinians 90 percent of the West Bank and Gaza strip.
It may not have been everything they wanted, but it was a dámņ sight better than what they had and would have been a foundation of strength upon which to build. For various reasons (Micha has explained to me how complicated the situation was), they rejected the offer without making a counter-offer. Whatever their reasons, the Palestinians had a shot at getting what they wanted and walked away from it. To blame everyone but the Palestinians for that failure is irrational.
There is a chance for peace. But both sides must be willing to sit down at the table and talk in good faith. You can point fingers at Israel — and in some instances, deservedly so — but the Arab community needs to take responsibility for its mistakes and misdeeds as well.
“If this was anywhere else maybe time will heal everything”
What is it about this place that makes it impossible?
“the founders of Israel made a big mistake in fulfilling their future by destroying others.”
Maybe they did. But if every country whose founders made big mistakes would be destroyed there would not be many countries left.
In any case the Palestinians have a future in Palestine, just not all of Palestine. The Arabs at large surely have a future, if they choise.
“I hope you don’t take it personally if some one fights to get their homes back.”
I hope they don’t take it personaly if I fight back to defend my home and the lives of my friends and relatives.
“And don’t be angry at me because I stand by their right and I wish them well.”
I’m not angry, I’m sad. It is the Palestinians who should be angry. I have a country that can defend itself. It will be the Palestinian who will suffer most if they continue fighting for 50 or a 100 or more years because you promised them that one day the table will turn. Yes, I am very sad for us and for them.
Bill Myers:
Without comenting on many other things you said, Id like to point out that Hamas is not the group that seized the soldier. Hamas have requested to that group to release the soldier from hour zero of this whole dilemma. Hamas, as pointed by Shlomo Ben Ami, have showed restrain and tried to find a peaceful way out of this particular conflict, and as despicable its ideology is, they have been behaving ever since getting elected.
Today’s terrorists can become tomorrow’s moderate leaders.
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_292.shtml
Posted by: El hombre Malo at July 18, 2006 01:29 PM
Without comenting on many other things you said, Id like to point out that Hamas is not the group that seized the soldier.
Fair enough. Facts are facts, and I got that one wrong.
Hamas have requested to that group to release the soldier from hour zero of this whole dilemma. Hamas, as pointed by Shlomo Ben Ami, have showed restrain and tried to find a peaceful way out of this particular conflict, and as despicable its ideology is, they have been behaving ever since getting elected.
Today’s terrorists can become tomorrow’s moderate leaders.
Hamas nevertheless continues to preach hate, and the destruction of Israel remains part of the Covenant of Hamas: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”
A couple of gestures is not enough to mitigate a history of violence. If Hamas wants to be respected and viewed as responsible and civilized, they will need to earn the world’s trust.
I hope they do. The Palestinians could use better leadership. The leadership they’ve had has not done much to truly advance their cause, but has instead continued to rely on violence in order to cast attention away from the corruption and incompetence that has long characterized the Palestinian government.
The Hamas did kidnap the soldier.
There is a conflict between the leadership of the Hamas in Gaza, the one in Damascus and the armed wing in Gaza.
The Hamas has kept a ceasefire for four reasons:
1) They lost many people to Israel
2) They didn’t want to sabotage the Israeli withdrawl and then the Palestinian elections.
3) The Palestinian people were getting fed up with the violent struugle because of the harm it caused them.
4) They received respectability when the Egyptians negotiated with them.
5) They won the elections and wanted to secure their power.
But, the Jihad and the Al-Aqsa brigade did not stop fighting. The military arm of the Hamas wanted to join the fight, so when they had a good justification as far as Palestinian opinion is concerned, they did.
Yes, I think we should negotiate with the Hamas for a ceasefire. Maybe one day they’ll become moderate.
But when they say they want to negotiate right now, what they want is that Israel release a thousand Palestinian militants for this one soldier. If Israel will agree to that, it will become a good idea to kidnap more soldiers and civilians anywhere to release more militants. Israel will not be able to defend themselves, and arresting terrorists will become pointless.
I doubt even Spain could fight ETA if every time it arrested a terrorist, it had to release it.
[by the way, apparently the Hamas and the HIzballa are militants, but the people who attack in Iraq, Madrid, London and New York are terrorists.]
Posted by: Micha at July 18, 2006 01:47 PM
The Hamas did kidnap the soldier.
It would seem I was premature in admitting I had my facts wrong. I went online to the news sites I was using to keep myself informed and couldn’t find anything about Hamas kidnapping a soldier, so I thought I had mis-remembered it. Guess I didn’t.
“You know, we probably should be angry with you, because it sounds, more or less, as if you are saying that all the senseless violence is ok”
I’m saying that all the senseless violence is invertible as things stand.
“I mean, geez, how long are you guys allowed to hold a grudge here?”
as I said before it not about a grudge , its about real material problems.
“lorshas, there is much historical evidence that the Jewish people were wrongfully driven from their homeland in ancient times. Despite the mass expulsions, there has been some Jewish presence in your region for the last three millenia”
holed the wikies i am Arabian and a Saudi , while you hear and read this stuff I live it.
“What you are saying is that certain people in the Arab community want everything or nothing at all: either Israel gives up everything and the Jews flee once again, or the fighting continues”
where did i say that , look at my UK idea i think its the best for the present and the future , if you have a tri-government that has Jew only Arab only and shared it would:
– separate those who hate each other , and create a shared society that would hold things up until new generation grow up without the experience of violence that would make the shared society grow stronger while still having a place for the extern right from both sides to hang out with out ruining things .
the Palestinians would get the west-bank and Gaza and start with Jerusalem as the first shared city along with another city that has a large Arab population , and Jews get everything els , and when the shared population grows they can build new cities in the desert .
and the Jews would get exclusive control over air and sea indefinitely in exchange for annual income.
“You can point fingers at Israel — and in some instances, deservedly so — but the Arab community needs to take responsibility for its mistakes and misdeeds as well”
between the US Israel dictators and terrorists what do want me to do?
lorshas, you’ve proved my point for me. The Israelis already offered the Palestinians 90 percent of Gaza and the West Bank and limited self-rule, and they rejected the offer without making a counter-proposal.
Was it everything they wanted? No. But history has shown that gains are often made incrementally.
Of course, if the Palestinians accepted such an offer, they’d have to start taking responsibility for their own welfare and prosperity and stop blaming the Jews and the U.S. And I don’t think they’re prepared to do that.
“between the US Israel dictators and terrorists what do want me to do?”
Tell me how the U.S. has prevented you from acting as an advocate for women’s rights. Tell me how the Israelis have prevented you from advocating for democratic reform within your country.
And tell me how it’s the U.S.’s fault that your government uses anti-American propaganda to distract your people from the corruption and injustice being committed by your very government. Propaganda that many of your people are far too eager to eat up.
When I say Hamas didnt kidnap the soldier, I was quoting Shlomo Ben Ami, as well as when I talk about Hamas beign palestine’s more reliable player so far. I tend to trust an Israeli former minister on these issues, but who knows…
When people talk about Israeli offers to Palestinians and the latter foolhardy of not accepting them, they forget every Israeli proposal is steel hard in one subject: the return of the 2 million refugees.
Arafat used those refugees as a dart against any offer, while Israel mantained that they will never accept those back.
Also, Palestinian insist on Jerusalem beign their capital, while Israel dont even consider it an occupied territory. Jerusalem is not so much a sacred city for muslims but an historic rallying point. Shia and Sunni collide on most issues, but all praise Soliman, who defeated invaders and united Arabs (even orthodox christian arabs who were fed up with catholic invaders).
Soliman is like Jean D’Arc, King Arthur and Alexander the Great piled into one for muslims, and Jerusalem is the symbol of that.
It might be naive on the Palestinian part to insist on those points but its important to keep them in mind when talking about why negotiations never seem to go right.
“Tell me how the U.S. has prevented you from acting as an advocate for women’s rights. Tell me how the Israelis have prevented you from advocating for democratic reform within your country.
And tell me how it’s the U.S.’s fault that your government uses anti-American propaganda to distract your people from the corruption and injustice being committed by your very government. Propaganda that many of your people are far too eager to eat up”
sorry a thought that terrorists and fundamentalists are the same let me modify my statement
“between the US Israel dictators terrorists and fundamentalists what do want me to do?”
Here’s a thought (or several).
1) America, suck it up deal with Syria. The best way to avoid direct conflict, or mediate a resolution, is to talk to all parties involved.
2) Israel, instead of bombing the Lebanese government into the arms of Hizbollah, offer to assist them in ridding their country of these fanatics. Probably a lot easier, and less cost intensive than the current plan. The added bonus is if you do find Iranians in Lebanon, you’ve got something to use.
3) Back to you Uncle Sam. Don’t call for democracy, then cry about the results. Cutting off aid to the Palestinian Authority is working real well. Just as well as that Cuban embargo.
IMHO, anyhoo.