You know, with so many people angered over the perceived corporate cowardice of Comedy Central, and the assertion that being worried over violent response is having a chilling effect on free expression, and how terrible it all is, and how someone should do something…
Here’s a thought. If you want to make a point about rights of free expression and standing firm in the face of potential negative reaction, here’s what you can do:
Go to Harlem, or to Watts, or any area with a heavily black population. Go at night. Go to a busy bar, or where you see a large group of residents congregating, and at the top of your lungs, start doing some of the Samuel L. Jackson speeches from “Pulp Fiction” where every other word is “ņìggër.” Say it loud. Say it proud. This was an Oscar-nominated winner of the Cannes Film Festival. Hit the word “ņìggër” particularly hard. Be firece. Be convincing.
See how that works out for you.
If you’re black, then you be the organizer. Find a white guy to be the guinea pig (how difficult could that be), and then try to convince bystanders that he’s just exercising free speech in the interest of political commentary.
What’s that, you say? You’re afraid you’ll get the crap kicked out of you? Your face bloodied? Your car destroyed? Well…yes. That’s a valid concern. And as the doctor is putting you back together or the mechanic is surveying the damage, they’ll ask you what happened, and you tell them, and if they say anything other than “Were you OUT of your MIND?” then what’s left of you can call the experiment a success. Or at least that’s what you can tell your lawyer after you’ve been arrested for inciting a riot and engaging in hate crimes.
While everyone’s busy sneering at newspapers or TV stations for being gutless, let’s remember that it is considered completely standard, acceptable and even–dare I say it–racially sensitive in every positive sense for people to say “the n-word” rather than “ņìggër.” Be honest: I’m saying it here, and your reaction, whoever you are, is to flinch or get angry. I’m using it to make a point, but it won’t surprise me if it gets angry letters to my publishers declaring, “Peter David wrote something that upset me! I’m never going to buy any of his books again, and you shouldn’t publish him!”
Because reprisals comes in all shapes and all sizes.
PAD
• 
PAD: Jewish organizations (for instance) who tried to shut down “Passion of the Christ” were no more in the right than those who tried to shut down “Last Temptation.” (Although actually the latter’s actions were more egregious since, from my understanding, “Temptation” was actually a good film.)
So if two groups were to exhibit exactly the same behavior their actions would not be equally egregious? It would depend not no what they were doing, but what they were opposing?
Sounds like you stared of saying one group was no more in the right than the other (I’m interpreting that as both being equally wrong) and end with one being more egregious because of what it was the opposed.
in an unrelated note. check this out. this is in fûçkìņg Ommaha, Nebraska.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/04/14/omaha.schools.ap/
Joe V
re the above article, let the lawsuits begin, although being only 3 hours away from omaha & having friends in the area, the people voted for this and this is what they want.
Joe V.
Perhaps, but just because they voted for it doesn’t make it right or legal.
Imagine if they held a vote to re-instate slavery or to segregate all schols across the country and if it won, would it still be constitutional? (Slavery is already addressed by the constitution, but just because something is voted in still doesn’t make truly legal until its been constitutionally challenged.)
On the Omaha thing, it seems like they have more complex intentions. The law wouldn’t go into effect for 3 years. I think they’re trying to get people to look at the issues, and fix some of the problems, rather than implement this law. The article even mentions this…
“But its backers said that at the very least, its passage will force policymakers to negotiate seriously about the future of schools in the Omaha area.”
I think, if I was a minority, living in a neighborhood populated primarily by minority, but was attending a school that was largly white, and said school did not take the minority needs into account, I’d be willing to have a school created in my neighborhood, where we could have more control, and ensure the school met our needs. The better solution, of course, would be that the current schools adjusted to better serve the needs of all students, not just the majority. Maybe by fighting for the former, they can end up with the latter?
This issue reminds me of the Gerrymandering debate. I’ve noticed that politicians can do no right on this. If they apportion districts to be representative of the larger whole, they get crucified, and if they apportion them to group together similar groups (group the republicans in one district, the democrats in the other, etc) they get accused of segregating the voters.
Sean Martin said, “Sounds like you stared of saying one group was no more in the right than the other (I’m interpreting that as both being equally wrong) and end with one being more egregious because of what it was the opposed.”
Actually, I think it’s worse than that as, I gather from what PAD said, he’s seen neither of the films. So, the label of “more egregious” is hung on one group based not on one’s informed opinion of the relative worth of the two works but on what one “understands” about their relative worth.
If I’m wrong then I apologize in advance. However, the phrase “from my understanding” certainly implies a lack of first hand knowledge of the two films’ artistic merit.
Setting aside the entire idea of someone’s opinion of a work of expression being a guiding principle in judging those who would protest it, I can’t help but be reminded of the criticism leveled at Christian groups who protested, “The Last Temptation of Christ” – “Have you seen it??? Well, if you haven’t seen it, you can’t judge it, can you???”
Ok, totally off topic but go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YveSHqhOkdo
It’s a short film about the Secret Wars Re-Enactment Society. Hysterical. The guy dressed as Mr Fantastic with one big floppy arm kills me.
Oh that is too funny, Bill. I especially loved the ending with the Crisis reenactors wanting the field and the “Supergirl” turning out to be a guy.
And here’s today’s free speech irony – Bush adomishes China to be more open about free speech, then watches as a protester is hauled off and arrested.
And yes, before anyone brings it up, hecklers and protesters were also arrested when Clinton was in office. That didn’t make it right then and it doesn’t make it right now.
I don’t see anything in the article about her being arrested. Just removed from the press conference (and the camera stand she was standing on).
All that being said, it would have been a breath of fresh air if, when the secret service approached the lady, the President stood up, said “Hold on a second, let her speak”, and used that as an example to China. Of course, then the internet would be filled with cries that we’re trying to provoke China into a war (for oil of course).
From Reuters“
“The Secret Service was interviewing the woman and a source said she would be charged with disorderly conduct.”
All that being said, it would have been a breath of fresh air if, when the secret service approached the lady, the President stood up, said “Hold on a second, let her speak”, and used that as an example to China. Of course, then the internet would be filled with cries that we’re trying to provoke China into a war (for oil of course).
Well, that would be a stretch considering China’s demand for oil imports is rapidly poised to overtake ours in the coming years. Most likely, it would be calls that Bush was being disrespectful to yet another head of state. Which is of course also ridiculous. Bush is only rude to Europeans.
Well…as loath as I am to defend anything that comforts the tyrants in China, it has to be expected that we don’t allow people to disrupt official diplomatic evnts. Otherwise we will get the same and worse and it will be one more obstacle to negotiations.
I’m a bit concerned that people are still able to get so close to world leaders like this. I’ll assume taht she was checked for guns and/or explosives before she got in.
Anyway, my hat’s off to her for her bravery. But, Den, I don’t put heckling in the same category of free speech that I would put, say, looking up “Tibet” on Google. Of course, it’s a tricky line to draw.
Well…as loath as I am to defend anything that comforts the tyrants in China, it has to be expected that we don’t allow people to disrupt official diplomatic evnts. Otherwise we will get the same and worse and it will be one more obstacle to negotiations.
But it’s a no-win situation. If you let them disrupt the event, they get the attention they want. But you have them arrested, the hecklers still win because now you look like you don’t support free speech. It would have been better if she had just been ejected from the grounds without saying she would be charged with disorderly conduct, but it’s still an embarrassment to Bush no matter what. Still, you really have to appreciate the irony of a protester being hauled off and arrested just after Bush takes about promoting free speech in another country.
I’m a bit concerned that people are still able to get so close to world leaders like this. I’ll assume taht she was checked for guns and/or explosives before she got in.
But apparently not Falan Gong flags. I’m almost positive that events like this require people to walk through metal detectors and is patroled by bomb-sniffing dogs and the like. But no one has invented anything that can detect the intent to heckle or express an dissenting opinion in the presense of Bush. But I’m sure Cheney has people working on it.
That would prevent Bush from being exposed to people who disagree with him at those fake townhall meetings even better than a loyalty oath.
Anyway, my hat’s off to her for her bravery. But, Den, I don’t put heckling in the same category of free speech that I would put, say, looking up “Tibet” on Google. Of course, it’s a tricky line to draw.
Not me. Free speech is still free speech, whether it’s on the internet or the White House lawn.
Not me. Free speech is still free speech, whether it’s on the internet or the White House lawn.
But heckling, designed to prevent others from speaking freely, seems to me to be exempt from protections, the same way that a religion that has as its basic tenent the right to prevent others from practicing freely could hardly get away with evoking first amendment rights.
Where one goes from legal protest to harassment designed to deny others free speech is the line I find difficult to draw. But there has to be a line or we get free speech only when the mob allows it.
Heh heh heh – SECRET Wars re-enactors! Thanks, Bill. Some nice costumes, really (some of them). They need some female enactors to be more accurate, though – for Rouge, She-Hulk, Storm, the Enchantress… and a REALLY tall guy for Galactus 😉
I have not heard of this heckling event, but it sounds to me that it falls under the category of non-violent civil disobedience. By disturbing the order the person in question went beyond what is protected by freedom of speech, but the action was not violent, and did not actually infringe on the other side’s freedom of speech. It was a conscious decision to break the rules, but without actually harming or threatening others, but rather willing to place herself in harm’s way in order to make a point.
But apparently not Falan Gong flags.
I’ve actually been reading The Epoch Times lately, which is the news source the ‘heckler’ had a press credential from.
For their part, The Epoch Times has an apology on their front page about this incident, saying that they had no idea the woman would protest like this.
The apology was for Bush and the White House – not the Chinese; but then, you probably wouldn’t read this paper if you wanted an unbiased opinion of Communist China anyways.
The Epoch Times have had a lot of news about the persecution of Falon Gong followers in China lately, but this is also the first time I’ve seen not only The Epoch Times reference by another news agency, but that any US news agency has acknowledged the recent problems for Falon Gong followers in China.
Where one goes from legal protest to harassment designed to deny others free speech is the line I find difficult to draw. But there has to be a line or we get free speech only when the mob allows it.
That’s a good point, but I don’t think her actions quite crossed that line. Sure, she disrupted the event, but only for a few minutes and if opens up a dialogue on China’s treatment on the followers of Falan Gong, then it’s a positive, IMHO.
Like I said, I have no problem with having her ejected from the event, but I think charging her with disorderly conduct was a bit too far.
I’ll agree with that…maybe the disorderly conduct thing is legit but I’ve heard that she is also getting nailed on something along the lines of “threatening a diplomat” or some such foolishness. She did tell Hu his days were numbered but that could just be an accurate observation of the fate of Chinese dictators.
Speaking of which, boy do the Chinese have the world’s least interesting tyrants or what? They look like file clerks. Say what you want about Iran’s leader, at least he plays the part of the wildeyed insane Hitler wannabe well.
Though wouldn’t it have been really cool/scary if Hu had leaned over to the microphone and done his best Jet Li in Lethal Weapon 4 impression; “In China you would already be dead.”
She did tell Hu his days were numbered but that could just be an accurate observation of the fate of Chinese dictators.
I’d say that it’s likely an observation of the fate of Communisty China – many Chinese now believe the end of the Community Chinese Party will be sooner rather than later.
I’d normally chalk it up as possibly nothing more than propoganda on the part of those that oppose the Chinese government (including The Epoch times), but I was flipping stations late last night and came across a discussion on Charlie Rose on PBS.
One of the people on that show mentioned that it seems like the Chinese government is in turmoil, and another of the experts said that even the Chinese don’t seem to know where they’re really headed right now, but that political reform seems to be on the horizon.
We can only hope.
Say what you want about Iran’s leader, at least he plays the part of the wildeyed insane Hitler wannabe well.
Which of course plays right into the hands of the people who feel the US doesn’t already have enough wars on our hands right now.
Though wouldn’t it have been really cool/scary if Hu had leaned over to the microphone and done his best Jet Li in Lethal Weapon 4 impression; “In China you would already be dead.”
That would have been freaky.
China is in a weird state now. While the government is still officially communist, they’ve courted so much business investment that they’re in practice a pseudo-capitalist society, albeit one with none of the individual liberties that most other capitalist societies enjoy. The shear size of their population coupled with the rapid clip they are modernizing their economy means that they are going to be a major force on the world stage for the forseeable future.
What is clear is that if things get tense between us and China, there is no way we can beat them the way beat the Soviets, ie, outspend them until they go bankrupt. Not only are they years ahead of the Russians in economic development now, our economy now is so intertwined with theirs (guess who owns the paper on about half of Bush’s deficit?) that we can’t afford to have them go bankrupt.
The hope is that as the population sees more of the economic advantages that more freedom guarantees, they’ll pressure the government for more democratic reforms.
Posted by: Bill Mulligan at April 21, 2006 10:07 AM
Though wouldn’t it have been really cool/scary if Hu had leaned over to the microphone and done his best Jet Li in Lethal Weapon 4 impression; “In China you would already be dead.”
I would’ve loved to see her hit Hu in the face with a pie. And then maybe squirt him with seltzer and tell a joke that begins with, “Two Chinese communists, a rabbi, and an alligator walk into a gay bar…”
I have no idea what kind of punchline you could come up with to complete that joke. I dreamed up the set-up one day but can’t think of a punch-line that would make sense.
Huh. Maybe the punchline could be something about Muhammed. I should give that some thought…
Does it bother anyone else that you assume that if you shout “ņìggër” to a group of black people they are going to instantly resort of violence? Perhaps they would dismiss you as a crazy person who should (for their own safety) be left alone. It’s an interesting comparison but imperfect: the use of a word that connotes generations of opression, indifference, and marginalization versus the secular use of a sacred figure (although I think that many of those individuals who are rioting are doing because they feel as if they and their way of life are under attack so you may have a point). I think the anger that is provoked in either situation is apples and oranges or at least apples and pears.
Y’know, I think there’d be a big difference in potential danger and bodily harm in standing on the corner in Harlem and yelling, “Nìggër!” at the top of your lungs vs. an image of Mohammed handing a football helmet to Peter Griffin.
Den: What is clear is that if things get tense between us and China, there is no way we can beat them the way beat the Soviets, ie, outspend them until they go bankrupt.
Luigi Novi: Actually, wasn’t the Soviet Union’s economy going bankrupt before the defense spendign of Reagan’s administration? I’ve read that John Chancellor, in his book, Peril and Promise: A Commentary on America, argued that the Cold War itself was only necessary until the end of the Cuban Missle Crisis, and was only kept going by its own momentum, “until it was stopped by the internal contradictions of the communist system.” Peter McWilliams, in his book Ain’t Nobody’s Business If You Do, states that even U.S. intelligence knew that the Soviet Union was bankrupt.
Luigi Novi: Actually, wasn’t the Soviet Union’sreliant economy going bankrupt before the defense spendign of Reagan’s administration?
I’ve always held the view that the fall of Communist Russia was just a matter of time… Reagan just helped speed up the process.
But yes, the Russians were more or less bankrupt from their efforts to keep up with us militarily.
The same could’ve happened to Communist China by now if not for the fact that we’re so reliant up them (and they in turn upon us) economically. As it stands, their military is a good 10-15 years behind ours, if not farther back.
Two Chinese communists, a rabbi, and an alligator walk into a gay bar.
The bartender yells out…”No one gets a drink without telling us the name of your pëņìš”
The Rabbi yells out “Mine is called “Timex”…for it gets a licking and keeps on ticking”
The alligator yells out “Mine is called “Pepsi”…a choice for a new generation.
The one Communist looks at the other and stated “I don’t know about you, but I guess Chairman Mao was right…free speech is given to idiots with no regard for their mind”.
The other replies…”Mine is called “Secret”…strong enough for a man, but made for a woman.”
There’s your joke…but I should add in the Mohammed would probably LAUGH HIS ÃSS off…
But then again, what do I know?
Try this for a agenda for you smart áššëš in the free speech conflicts….go to Washington…talk to your senator/congressmen/presidential advisor/høøkër (I’m guessing you want the høøkër – she may be screwing you, but at least you’ll know what your paying your money for…) to have the Constitution of the US changed into toilet paper, and flush it in the Pontamac River as more toxic waste. After that, you don’t need to elect a NEW president. Keep in that retarded one in there now as your next King, or Emporer, or even lets see…Prime Minister…sorry Canadian joke here.
Oh, I can’t speak my mind…that’s OK. I have a brain tumor, and I have a medical excuse for my tourette’s syndrom ($&(@#* $(#&*#@( $(#*&#@$(*…is that better now you whiny self complaining bìáŧçhëš…or does free speech come at a cost of free expression? How about this…everytime you say something offensive to someone whether it’s via sexism, racism, or even GOD FORBID for religious reasons…you put in a dollar for that organizations. So I imagine that I would be donating alot to the Paris Hilton Antibashing organization…either that or the Redneck Antibashing organization..if they would stop interbreeding with one another..
Peace upon your kind souls, and may your bitter disputes be disuaded through a sweet smile, and a kind word.
PS…a message for PAD….I LOVE YOUR BOOKS, your writings in Incredible Hulk, Captain Marvel, and yes even with your writings in the TV series of Spacecases, and the Little Mermaid (didn’t think I knew did you?) Bye the way PAD, Happy Belated Birthday for you and your family members, Merry Belated Christmas, and New Years, and even Happy Belated Kwanzaa, and Happy Belated Haunaukah…etc. etc…
Thanks for letting the nut cases speak…now just to cream them together and make a new batch of peanut butter…JIF, or Kraft…Chunky, or Smooth… I dunno…the CHOICES we make…
Posted by: Robert Forsberg at April 22, 2006 05:52 PM
Two Chinese communists, a rabbi, and an alligator walk into a gay bar.
The bartender yells out…”No one gets a drink without telling us the name of your pëņìš”
The Rabbi yells out “Mine is called “Timex”…for it gets a licking and keeps on ticking”
The alligator yells out “Mine is called “Pepsi”…a choice for a new generation.
The one Communist looks at the other and stated “I don’t know about you, but I guess Chairman Mao was right…free speech is given to idiots with no regard for their mind”.
The other replies…”Mine is called “Secret”…strong enough for a man, but made for a woman.”
There’s your joke…but I should add in the Mohammed would probably LAUGH HIS ÃSS off…
I thank you for the valiant try, but I don’t think it works. Because the joke you’ve told doesn’t require a rabbi, an alligator and two Chinese communists. It would work just as well with, say, three nondescript guys who walk into bar.
My Holy Grail would be to find a joke where the rabbi, the alligator and the two Chinese communists are absolutely integral to the punchline. Thus, my quest continues.
Although, y’know, I don’t hold out much hope because I’m not really spending any time looking. Too much other stuff to do.
Try this for a agenda for you smart áššëš in the free speech conflicts….go to Washington…talk to your senator/congressmen/presidential advisor/høøkër (I’m guessing you want the høøkër – she may be screwing you, but at least you’ll know what your paying your money for…) to have the Constitution of the US changed into toilet paper, and flush it in the Pontamac River as more toxic waste. After that, you don’t need to elect a NEW president. Keep in that retarded one in there now as your next King, or Emporer, or even lets see…Prime Minister…sorry Canadian joke here.
Uh, no. A lotta people have fought and bled and died to protect the freedoms we take for granted. Are our freedoms under assault? Yes. Both from without and within. Does that mean we should raise the white flag? Hëll, no. Our freedoms are worth fighting for.
By the way, this isn’t the first time we’ve had a president curtail freedoms in the name of national security. Don’t think it’ll be the last. As long as there are people who give a dámņ about liberty, though, I’m confident the pendulum will swing in the other direction again. And there are still people who give a dámņ. Just read this thread.
Oh, I can’t speak my mind…that’s OK. I have a brain tumor, and I have a medical excuse for my tourette’s syndrom ($&(@#* $(#&*#@( $(#*&#@$(*…is that better now you whiny self complaining bìáŧçhëš…or does free speech come at a cost of free expression? How about this…everytime you say something offensive to someone whether it’s via sexism, racism, or even GOD FORBID for religious reasons…you put in a dollar for that organizations. So I imagine that I would be donating alot to the Paris Hilton Antibashing organization…either that or the Redneck Antibashing organization..if they would stop interbreeding with one another..
Actually, Peter is on the board of the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund. And I’m not just going bald — I’m a card-carrying member. (Actually, I’m not going bald. Yet.)
When you’re talking about free speech, I think it makes sense to donate money to those organizations that, y’know, protect free speech.
Peace upon your kind souls, and may your bitter disputes be disuaded through a sweet smile, and a kind word.
Have you actually read this thread? The bulk of it has been a passionate, but civil, exchange of ideas. In fact, some of the ideas presented here have opened my mind to the complexity of the issue of Comedy Central’s censorship of Muhammed. Bitter? Disagreement isn’t synonymous with bitter. And other than the few people in this thread who were bitter, most of us have just been, y’know, debating. There’s a difference.
PS…a message for PAD….I LOVE YOUR BOOKS, your writings in Incredible Hulk, Captain Marvel, and yes even with your writings in the TV series of Spacecases, and the Little Mermaid (didn’t think I knew did you?) Bye the way PAD, Happy Belated Birthday for you and your family members, Merry Belated Christmas, and New Years, and even Happy Belated Kwanzaa, and Happy Belated Haunaukah…etc. etc…
Peter, I second the nomination. Your writing rocks. It also rocks that you open up this board to, like, everyone. You don’t just talk about free speech, you put the principles into action.
Thanks for letting the nut cases speak…now just to cream them together and make a new batch of peanut butter…JIF, or Kraft…Chunky, or Smooth… I dunno…the CHOICES we make…
Yeah, I like most of the people in this board, but I don’t want to be slathered with peanut butter and “creamed” together with any of them. So, no thanks.
Now, if Sarah Michelle Gellar were participating in this thread, I might feel differently.
Y’know, Luigi misinterpreting my sarcasm earlier has made me all paranoid. For those of you who didn’t get it, the “I’m not just going bald” thing was a reference to the hair club for men ads where the president would reveal that he’s “also a member.”
The point is, I’ve donated to the CBLDF. And when I say I’m a card-carrying member, I really am. They sent me a card and I carry it in my wallet.
Also, I forgot to mention that in addition to being on the board of the CBLDF, and opening up this blog to everyone, Peter’s also donated ášš-loads of money to the CBLDF.
I know you already mentioned that earlier, Peter, but I think you can’t mention something like that too often. I believe free speech is our most important freedom, and is the foundation upon which all of our other freedoms are built. The fact that you’re on the front lines protecting it speaks volumes about you, all of it good.
Two Chinese communists, a rabbi, and an alligator walk into a gay bar.
The bartender says “Hey what is this, some kind of joke?”
Ok, it isn’t funny or original but, sadly, it’s the best I’ve got.
Bill Myers: Also, I forgot to mention that in addition to being on the board of the CBLDF, and opening up this blog to everyone, Peter’s also donated ášš-loads of money to the CBLDF.
Luigi Novi: For my part, I want to make clear that I never couched my disagreement with this blog entry of Peter’s in terms of any accusation that he is anything but a fierce proponent of free speech. Anyone who’s read his BID’s would have to be a few French Fries shy of a Happy Meal to argue otherwise. 🙂
Interesting story: the ambasadors of Thailand and Sri=Lanka complained to the Israeli Foreign ministry about a place called the budha Bar in Tel Aviv that has a statue of Budha which they find offensive because it is used for commercial purposes.
The foreign ministry said they can’t do anything about it. The bar owner said that the Budha is used for commercial purposes.
Interesting, Micha. Of course, I can’t remember the last time hordes of angry Buddhists starting fires at embassies and McDonald’s over an image of Buddha.
I’ve always wondered how they felt about all the bars in the US that serve drinks in glasses shaped like mini-Buddhas.
Incidentally, if you want to read more about how full of sh!t the Bush administration as been, read here,.
Of course, since this interview of a retire high level CIA official aired on CBS, I’m sure it’s just part of the evil Dan Rather conspiracy.