While the New York Times and most other papers in the United States refuse to run the cartoons that have inflamed radical Muslims–and I say “radical” because I’d like to think that the majority of Muslims would actually, y’know, follow the Prophet’s teaching and react to criticism with patience rather than violence–the University of Illinois student newspaper, “The Daily Illini,” ran an assortment of them.
And why not? A dozen pictures that would have been here today, gone tomorrow if radicals hadn’t made them a cause celebre have become a major news item. So the newspaper ran some of them.
The result? Angry protests from students and the newspaper editor has been relieved of duty. World reaction in microcosm.
The most laughable reaction is the Iranian newspaper that wants to run cartoons lampooning the Holocaust. This despite the fact that the cartoons ran in Denmark and had nothing to do with Jews, Israel, or the Holocaust. Perhaps it’s because a contest for cartoons lampooning Danish pastries doesn’t seem ripe for humor. Or perhaps Muslims have yet to encounter a problem that they can’t blame on the Jews. Most likely they consider cartoons attacking Jews to be “payback.” As far as Jews are concerned, Muslims lambasting Jews isn’t called “payback.” It’s called “SOP.”
There is nothing–I repeat, nothing–that some Iranian newspaper can run that’s going to get the average Jew to do anything other than roll his eyes and say, “Yeah, whatever.” We’re sure not going to start burning down Iranian restaurants or embassies over it.
This entire business has been revelatory. It underscores the complete Muslim disconnect between their own actions and others. Anti-semitism, anti-Americanism, insults and lambasting of others based upon race, color and creed is completely ingrained into their culture. But at the same time they demand complete respect for their beliefs from others who DO NOT SHARE THEM. They demand from others what they would not even remotely consider dispensing themselves.
And it underscores the complete chickenshit nature of governments here and abroad who seem far more eager to condemn the publishers of the cartoons than the overreactions to them. “How can someone provoke the Muslims?” people wonder. I wonder how people can NOT provoke them, or at least provoke their extremist factions who are determined to sell the idea that the world is out to get them. (Then again, if Christians can try to claim that they’re under attack in the ninety-percent Christian United States, I suppose anything is possible.)
Governments are trying to sell the notion that we must all be careful to be sensitive to the religious beliefs of others. Which is nonsense. Cartoons trashing Jews are standard in newspapers throughout the Arab world and I don’t see the U.N. making a stink about it. No, the truth is that various governments want to show respect for Muslim beliefs in the same way that one shows respect for a test tube of nitro glycerin: You don’t REALLY give a dámņ about its preachings. You just want to make sure not to shake it up so it doesn’t go off.
If the answer to free speech is more free speech, then apparently the answer to intolerance is more intolerance. Don’t say to the Arab world, “It’s a dámņëd cartoon, get a grip. And if you don’t like it, then how about cleaning up your own house by eliminating the practices that cause the world to see you as a bunch of dangerous, violent psychos, drowning out the teachings of peace and tolerance that your Prophet puts forward.” Say instead to everyone else, “Don’t get the Muslims upset because they’ll blow you up.”
What the hëll is it with extremists anyway that they use historical figures who preached the ways of peace to justify the ways of war?
PAD
• 
At the risk of offending (see later comment) just about everyone, I dispair of humanity ever overcoming superstition and of individuals ever being able to think for themselves and reject the herd mentality.
I am offended by your misspelling of “despair”! BEHEAD THE INFIDEL!!
Now I’ve got another question – if images of the Prophet are forbidden, how do any of these “offended” Muslims know that these images look anything like him? For all we know, Mohammed wore his hair in a crew-cut, and affected trucker caps and Hawaiian shirts. Who knows? These cartoons look like “generic Arabic Islamic guy” – how do we know Mohammed wasn’t a really, really lost Viking, horned helmet and all??
How can one ban an image when one has no clue what that image in fact is?
The layers of craziness in this bizarre controversy get deeper and crazier the longer I look at it.
One of the Danish Imams who brought the Jyllen-Posten cartoons to the attention of Middle-Eastern Muslim governments claimed that what was objectionable was the conflation in the public imagination of Mohammed, and by extension, Islam, with Terrorism and Criminality.
Now, I have to think that that’s not so much the cartoons’ fault, but the terrorism and criminality carried out by an explicitly Muslim worldwide movement.
I also can’t help but think that, if you’re outraged that the world thinks of Islam and terrorism and criminality going hand-in-hand, there are better, more effective ways to express that outrage — more convincing ways — than to burn embassies or call for the deaths of cartoonists or indeed nations.
If you’re outraged that a satirical cartoon is painting an entire culture with one brush, you seem to be on shaky moral ground calling for a boycott of anything and everything from the same nation the cartoons were first published in.
I think that the real problem Islam has with its image in the Western world, that leads non-Muslims to imagine Mohammed with his turban containing a Bomb, is that those Muslims who do not believe in violence as an answer cannot get past the notion that “Islam means Peace,” and start to accept that this is as much — or more — Islam’s problam as anyone else’s. It’s not just some wacky coincidence that the suicide bombers who’ve murdered thousands are Muslims. For better or worse, Islam is why these people kill, and it’s Muslims as a whole who have the best chance of, and the biggest stake in, exposing and stopping them.
Because the journey that led, say, four young British Muslims to murder scores of their countrymen began in a Mosque, or a Madrassa. Al Qaeda did not just recruit random dark-skinned kids from in front of the Safeway.
And I think it’s only when Islam wrestles with that that the rest of the world will really begin to see what Tony Blair called “the true, moderate face of islam” as the real thing.
Of course, as Dennis Miller says, I could be wrong.
—
Jonathan Andrew Sheen
Pepperell, Massachusetts
Anyone who thought it was just about cartoons…well, here we go:
From Ann Althouse
Chief Mufti Talgat Tadzhuddin approves of the decision by the city government of Moscow to reject what would have been the first gay rights parade in Russia.
“If they come out on to the streets anyway they should be flogged. Any normal person would do that – Muslims and Orthodox Christians alike … [The protests] might be even more intense than protests abroad against those controversial cartoons.”
Ah, so the cartoon violence is to work as general threat to suppress all sorts of behavior. Religious fanatics with no power to force others to adopt their religion use violence and threats of violence to force others to behave as if they were followers of that religion.
The mayor, Sergei Tsoi, defended the city’s decision on the ground that the idea of a gay rights parade has “caused outrage in society.” So the power of government is harnessed by the mere expression of outrage and a reminder of how badly your co-religionists behaved over those cartoons.
Will the appeasers finally wake up when they move from editorial cartoonists to gays? Or is an estimated 3-10% of the population still small enough to be an acceptable sacrifice?
I couldn’t help but start thinking about the Spanish Inquisition, and wondering if most world religions go through this kind of intense, fanatical and violent period during their early teen-centuries? What I see is church sanctioned violence akin to the inquisition on a level that the Catholic Church couldn’t image in the 15th Century.
This being said, history has a tendency to paraphrase itself, and any lesson a religion or religious body may learn doesn’t get passed on to other religious bodies. Luigi, I feel it is unfair to dismiss the similarities in the evilution of one organization and how it compares to that of another.
Yeah, but nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition. Who didn’t see THIS one coming?
“Yeah, but nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition. Who didn’t see THIS one coming?”
Yes, but no one expects you to expect someone not expecting the Spanish Imquisition.
1At the risk of offending (see later comment) just about everyone, I dispair of humanity ever overcoming superstition and of individuals ever being able to think for themselves and reject the herd mentality.
I am offended by your misspelling of “despair”! BEHEAD THE INFIDEL!!
Hoisted on my own petard!!!! I am a translator and interpreter and have an unpleasant elitest proclivity towards correcting what passes for coherent writing in others. Could we plea bargain the beheading down to a mere flogging or perhaps sex with 72 virgins (see, I’m not sure my heart could take it at my advanced age and if I gotta go…..?
By the way, I always wondered about that reward for Muslim martyrs. Is the virginity of these 72 celestial bedmates automatically renewed as they service the martyr for eternity of does he get 72 new ones at regular intervals? What about female martyrs? DO they get 72 studs for eternity? Do those who merrily blow themselves up contemplate the illogic of this or is thinking not an option?
QUESTION EVERYTHING – THAT’S MY MOTTO
What if it’s 72 sturgeons? Boy would THAT suck.
Yeah; 90% of the experience would be crap.
That is, after all, Sturgeon’s Law…
TWL
1Yeah, but think of all the free eggs!!!
And I note a Mulligan/Lynch team-up. The heavens shake,the Internet cracks and the gods themselves quake and quail (No, Ðìçk,put down the dámņ gun!!!) Oops, that’s another thread. (And the nominee for the most egregiously strained non sequitur is …
Tim and I are doing the new Hawk & Dove live action TV show. We just filmed the scene where I’m getting the holy crap beaten out of me by a gang of thugs and I’m yelling out “For the love of God, Dove, fight!” and he says, all weepy “I…I…CAN’T!”
And then I get the crap beaten out of me some more. I’m not really liking this gig.
What if it’s 72 sturgeons? Boy would THAT suck.
And just once, I’d like to see a thread that doesn’t eventually bring itself around to Roe.
TWL
thankyew, trytheveal
>>See what Shrub & co gave birth to when they renamed French Fries? Where will it all end?
>Actually, this has a long and goofy history. Hamburgers were renamed “liberty sandwiches,” and sauerkraut as “liberty cabbage during WWI.
Live and learn, thanks. 😎
Actually, this has a long and goofy history. Hamburgers were renamed “liberty sandwiches,” and sauerkraut as “liberty cabbage during WWI.
Shows how far we’ve come in 90 years 🙁
———————-
What are they gonna do? Cut off oil? They can’t afford to
They’ll just sell it to someone else.
They’ll just sell it to someone else.
Yep. Which is what it looks like Iran is going to do with China.
And the Chinese haven’t shown much inclination for giving a rat’s ášš about the rest of the world’s needs and desires.
Religon has to be one of the things mankind invented that has totally lived past its usefulness. We all die, when someone comes back to tell me what happened I will be happy to share my viewpoint.
Oh and if you dont believe me thats ok. Your beliefs are as sacred as my own. Anything else is just a degree of bûllšhìŧ.
And of course I should have written “egregiously strained segue” and not “non sequitur”. Hubris, once more.
They’ll just sell it to someone else.
Not at these prices. I’m also not sure that the Chinese could afford to absorb the entire output of Middle Eastern oil. If they did they’d demand a big discount. Then they’d sell it to us.
My fellow Muslims, I am pleased to tell you I just signed legislation which outlaws Denmark forever! The beheadings begin in five minutes!
LUIGI NOVI: I must disagree that offense is not an emotion but an analytical-intellectual process. While I’m not dismissing the idea that deliberation may play some part in cultural relationships like the one we’re discussing on this board, obviously, there are times when someone says or does something to you that hurts your feelings, aren’t there? I think intellectualizing one’s emotions at such times can help alleviate the feeling (and even then, not always), which is the opposite of the idea that it causes it.
Sean Archer: Luigi, I would love to get into a conversation about this, but I fear I probably won’t be able to respond if you read this. That said, I’d like to address this idea. I’m with the Reverend on this. Somewhere inside anyone who has ever been offended there was a choice made. In any situation, you absolutely have the ability to let something slide off your back, and must make the internal choice to either DO that or accept the gift of someone’s slight. My favorite story concerning this is about the Buddha:
The Buddha is walking along a path and he is followed by disciples. At some point a man joins the group who has heard of the Buddha. The man listens a while to the conversations, and then decides he’s heard enough and begins to berate the Buddha. Buddha stops, listens to the man, smiles and continues walking, telling the man that if he has more to say he can follow. The man does. He spends an hour or two walking with the Buddha and the entire way he insults him. The Buddha smiles at every word the man says. Finally, exasperated at not getting a rise out of the Buddha, the man stops and says, “I’ve done nothing but berate you. Have you nothing to say to me?”
The Buddha stops, and says, “If you are given a gift, by a friend, and you do not accept it, because it doesn’t fit you, or you don’t need it, who does the gift belong to? Why would I get upset about a gift that I have not accepted?”
This is my point, and I think the point the Reverend was trying to make, Luigi. At every point in your life when you got offended at something someone said, you had the oppertunity(even if you didn’t realize it at the time)to refuse to accept the gift. You always have a choice. Whether you accept the gift of slander, or emotional injury is ALWAYS up to you. That’s a right that I’m happy to have, because it means that in any moment, I can choose peace. Which is what all those guys with the singular names like, Jesus, Buddha, Mohommed, and Krishna were all saying before they got twisted by people who write books and carry signs.
Best,
Sean Archer
Thank you, Sean. You explained what I had in mind far better than I did.
What if it’s 72 sturgeons? Boy would THAT suck.
Now I’m remembering the gag I heard a few years back about Osama finally dying, and arriving at the gates of Paradise. Before he can get his bearings, he receives a roundhouse right from George Washington, then a kick in the teeth from Patrick Henry. As he falls to the ground, James Madison steps on his neck. Behind him there is a line of 69 other men, waiting their turn to beat Osama to a pulp.
To a nearby efreet, Osama wails, “What is this? Where is the reward Allah promised?”
The efreet laughs. “What are you talking about? He promised you 72 Virginians, didn’t He?”
There was a Dragonbert strip that showed Atta going to Muslim heaven and being greeted by 72 comic book fans. Which probably answers the question about the female suicide bombers.
I’m dissapointed by this. I’m actually not allowed to say much on this matter, but I will say that using this situation as a jumping off point for this discussion doesn’t really work (which is sad because I don’t disagree with your basic point)
The editors were not suspended for running the cartoons. People might like to assume that (especially as it helps them prove their point) but actually it was something far less philosophical. Any cursory googling and research on the subject will explain what happened – I can’t. Do not let yourself be spoon-fed by a quick story here and there. Take a closer look. Read a statement by the publisher, read reactions from the newsroom under the editor, and read some of the interviews with the editor himself.
I think then people would actually get a real sense of what’s really going on here. Unfortunately, I cannot really editorialize on this matter and connect the dots for you.
Also, the Daily Illini is independent, non-profit and not related to the University of Illinois. So there is no hypocrisy at all with the Chief Illiniwek thing.
In any case, I understand where people might be eager to use this situation. But you might be on rocky ground if you do.
Still love Fallen Angel, X-Factor and ST: New Frontier!
http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2006/02/18/publisher_blasts_suspended_editors/
Daily Illini publisher blasts suspended editor’s decision in letter
By Jodi Heckel
Saturday, February 18, 2006
CHAMPAIGN – Daily Illini Publisher Mary Cory, in a letter to DI alumni, excoriated the actions of the paper’s editor-in-chief in deciding to publish anti-Muslim cartoons.
Now a lawyer representing the editor, Acton Gorton, says Cory and the Illini Media Company, which owns the paper, defamed Gorton.
In her letter, Cory discussed how the independent student newspaper has handled the fallout from printing the cartoons in the Feb. 9 edition of the paper. Cory called Gorton dishonest and reckless and said he deliberately kept other editors and the editorial board in the dark about his plans to publish the cartoons.
An editorial in Thursday’s DI made the same allegations.
Cory could not be reached for comment Friday.
Gorton “demonstrated a lack of respect for his colleagues and a total disregard for the need to collaborate or communicate honestly in the newsroom,” Cory wrote in her letter. “His focus … is for the media attention he is receiving personally for his courageous move … to run the cartoons in his paper, not for the need to publish an excellent newspaper worthy of its reputation.”
Gorton calls the statements by Cory and those published over the last week in the DI a “character assassination.”
“I’ve been branded as a rogue editor, as someone who wants to usurp the newsroom to further his own agenda, and that’s not what’s going on at all,” he said.
Gorton hired Hoffman Estates lawyer Junaid Afeef, who wrote to the Illini Media Company and Cory, asking them to stop making defamatory statements about Gorton. Afeef said no legal action has been filed, but he did not rule it out.
Illini Media Company board member Tom Costello said the board doesn’t get involved in the daily operations of the newspaper, although it will discuss Afeef’s letter.
“We’re going to let the students hash this out,” Costello said.
Gorton and Opinions Editor Charles Prochaska were suspended Tuesday, the day after the DI ran a lengthy opinion piece criticizing how the decision to run the cartoons was made. A student task force composed of newsroom staff will conduct an internal investigation.
Gorton questions whether he’ll get a fair hearing.
He believes the suspension is about the publication of the cartoons, not the decision-making process.
“They say I haven’t broken any rules or policies, but they want to have control over what I say,” Gorton said. “That’s not how a newsroom runs. The editor calls the shots.”
He said he consulted a DI night editor and a longtime journalist about whether to publish the cartoons. Gorton said he chose to publish them alongside a column he wrote so he would be the one taking responsibility for them and accepting any criticism, rather than the paper as a whole.
He also said others in the newsroom knew about plans to publish the cartoons, and he had no obligation to clear content through the editorial board.
“My first concern is my readers and what they are wanting to have presented to them,” Gorton said. “What I didn’t want to happen was chaos in the newsroom that night. There was a potential for people to want to go crazy. What happened was every single member of my editorial board looked at the page and was fully aware of what was going on.”
Gorton said if he had it to do over again, he would still choose to publish the cartoons. He said he’s received more positive than negative feedback from people around campus. Josh Rohrscheib, a DI columnist and president of the Illinois Student Senate, defended Gorton in his column Monday and wrote that he would resign if Gorton were fired.
Muslim students protested on the Quad Tuesday, and UI Chancellor Richard Herman issued a statement after the cartoons appeared, saying he disagreed with the decision to publish them although the DI had the right to do so. In her letter, Cory said the UI administration has not interfered in the matter.
The DI is an independently-run newspaper and is not owned by the UI.
The UI chapter of the American Association of University Professors issued a statement Friday, saying the organization reserves judgment on the suspension of Gorton and Prochaska, but noting its policy on student rights and responsibilities states, “Editors … of student publications should be protected from arbitrary suspension and removal because of student, faculty, administration or public disapproval of editorial policy or content.”
The Central Illinois Mosque and Islamic Center, 106 S. Lincoln Ave., U., will hold an open house from noon to 3 p.m. Sunday to discuss Muslims’ feelings about the Prophet Muhammad and why they are offended by the cartoons.
Not at these prices. I’m also not sure that the Chinese could afford to absorb the entire output of Middle Eastern oil. If they did they’d demand a big discount. Then they’d sell it to us.
I think you’re underestimating the rapid clip at which the Chinese economy is modernizing. Just yesterday, I spoke with a guy who had visited Beijing just last year and he said it’s amazing how modern Chinese cities are becoming and their standard of living is rising. For the first time, automobile ownership is within the reach of the average urban resident now. Already, China as surpassed the US in the amount of greenhouse gases generated. The sheer size of their population and the rapid clip at which their industrial base is growing has them our primary competitor on the international market for the purchase of oil and Chavez has said he’d rather sell to them then to us (no surprise there).
They are buying oil at a voracious rate and it’s not to sell to us.
Sounds like Gorton is a dìçk, but he’s a dìçk who did a courageous thing.
the latest move by the Daily Illini is to issue a warning to its members not to disclose any Newspaper info in blogs. Penalty; termination.
Sounds like they aren’t too sure of their position.
Sounds like they aren’t too sure of their position.
Or…
Sounds like their being threatened with lawsuits.
Or…
Sounds like their issuing a standard policy that won’t prevent internal issues from being discussed with the public. Something nearly every professional environment is moving towards.
Well, being a fairly liberal Muslim (read: not prone to going out beheading at the drop of a hat) I actually agree with most of your points PAD. They were well thought out, articulate as always, and most importantly, were backed up by supporting arguments.
Having seen the cartoons a while back (although now they’ve restricted access to comics reporter in my country on all the internet servers (THAT my friends is the lack of freedom of whatever…)) I admit that other than 2 of them there was nothing all that offensive about these ‘toons. Even of those 2, I find the ‘vigrinal’ one actually offensive. The rest are more dependent on how you read the strip than anything else. However, that doesn’t stop the extremists. Currently, the main point of contention seems to be that it’s offensive to Islam to allow pictures of the Prophet to be reproduced…and that’s accurate. Yet, that doesn’t excuse the outright, blatant destruction that Muslims all over the world are carrying out right now.
I cringe every single time I see more flag-burning on tv and at this point am waiting for the next fiasco to start so we can finally move on from this.
On that point though, I am somewhat disappointed to see the later comments on an otherwise fairly even-balanced thread spiral into generalizations and stereotypes. Is it too much to ask for to expect the discussion to stay neutral even for a ‘hotbed’ topic such as this? It’s bordering on the juvenile and the same effect would probably be achieved if they said “Muslims bad!!” I understand that we aren’t the favorite people of the world right now (or ever for that matter since 9/11…) but still…these comments just serve to inflame the extremists and disappoint people like me. Can’t we all just get along? (apparently not…but I thought I’d throw it out there just in case)
Sorry to ramble like that, but much like everyone else here, this is the first chance that I’ve gotten to discuss this in any kind of open forum without being blasted by the extremists or the opposite end of the spectrum.
Or…
Sounds like their being threatened with lawsuits.
Or…
Sounds like their issuing a standard policy that won’t prevent internal issues from being discussed with the public. Something nearly every professional environment is moving towards.
Perhaps, but if they really have a fear of lawsuits it probably comes from Ms Corey’s ill advised letter to the alumni, a letter in which internal issues were discussed with the public. So…
Zeb,
Thanks for your posting. It is essential that decent Muslims like yourself be heard. I don’t like it when others routinely lump all Christians in with the crazies and if I’ve ever done the same with Muslims I certainly apologize.
Although I think that there are certain unique qualities to Islam that may make it difficult to have the equivalent of the Reformation, the real problem lies not with Islam itself but with the countries and cultures of some of the predominantly Muslim countries. If the Saudis were Christian I suspect they’d manage to justify their despotism using the New testament.
People like Zeb are why I don’t just print out T-shirts of the cartoons and wear them to express solidarity with the cartoonists. The thought is nice but the crazies won’t see it, decent Muslims will think I’m attacking them, and it would therefore just be a dìçk thing to do. But I want to do something.
Guess I’ll go drink another Tuborg beer. Hey, we have the day off, I can drink a beer at 8 AM if I want to…
I guess if you drink it with the attitude that beer is forbidden to Islam, it’s a protest of sorts… 🙂
If the Saudis were Christian I suspect they’d manage to justify their despotism using the New testament.
True. As I’ve said before, the real problem with Muslim world is that they’re still trapped in a medieval-level mentality. It colors the way they view religion and politics. It’s not so much the particulars of their religion as it is the way they apply it.
Maybe in 600 years they’ll catch up to us, but that’s hardly a consolation to the rest of the world.
Bill, the issue of Islam reformation is not that relevant for several reasons:
1) Atthe time of the reformation and many years afterwards Christianity was anything but open minded of pluralism in religion. It could maybe be said that the reformation eventually caused the christian to be more secular or to accept pluralism as inevitable, but it took a long time.
2) Islam is not like catholicism, there are many interpreters.
3) In a sense the fundementalists are the Luthers and Calvins of Islam (the early protestants were fundementalists). They in fact tend to look down on the official interpreters of Islam, the Ulama.
4) Sunni Islam does have diversity in their interpretations. There are 4 schools of interpretations. Some muslims have tried to promote ecumenicalism by refering to Shia Islam as a fifth school. /in any case there are several heretic sects that came out of islam, such as Shia, Druze etc. There are also movements, some tend more liberalism, others are like the Wahabis, very extreme.
5) There is fundementalism, i.e. wanting to return to the basics / have countries governed by religious laws and the religious establishment having more power, in Judaism and Christianity too. If there is a difference, it is maybe that when Christians look back they dream of apostles and missionaries preaching to heathens and killed by Romans. Fundementalist Jews dream of a Jewish kingdom, with a Jewish king or a council of elders, and priests etc. But when muslims loook back, they have the image of an expanding Muslim empire.
6) In Israel we do have some friction and violence because of ultra-religious extremeists, though not to the degree you see in Islam. In any case, in Jerusalem, where I live, you are less likely to see billboards with pictures of half-naked models than in the more secular Tel-Aviv.
In any case, I don’t think the Muslims need the reformation. But they sure have issues they need to deal with. There is a disease inside Islam (as there was one in Germany and Japan not long ago). Let’s hope they can cure themselves.
Yeah, but llook at what it took to cure the disease. Will we have to raze the Middle East to the ground to fix it?
It’s interesting that you talk about disease. When you look at the virulent anti-semetism in Iran and the Arab countries it really does seem like a disease. It colors everything they do, akmost no issue can be discussed before they start blaming Jews, no matter how insane the idea is.
I don’t know how easy it will be to cure. Can you imagine a leader actually coming out and saying “Hey look, we’ve been lying to you. The reason you all suffer and live in poverty while the rest of the world thrives is because a few of us have been living off the wealth of the land and telling you that it’s all the fault of the Jews and you, like idiots, believed it. Now let’s start over with a new–Urk!” (Sound of some manner of violent death. Which will later be blamed on Jews.)
Jonathon– Tuborg is made by Denmark so drinking it is indeed a form of protest and helps negate the Muslim boycott. Legos are also form Denmark but the combination of Legos and beer is ill advised and could lead to tragedy.
“Legos are also (from) Denmark but the combination of Legos and beer is ill advised and could lead to tragedy.”
Heh heh ha ha HA HA!
And, I also wanted to thank Zeb Aslam for the valuable contribution to this thread. I’m glad you still have access to THIS site, at least.
Islam doesn’t so much need a version of the Protestant Reformation. All the Reformation really did was splinter Christianity to various sects and Islam already has enough of those.
What it needs is an Enlightenment/Renaissance. At one point, Islam was actually ahead of Christianity in the tolerance department, but Europe pulled ahead as a result of the new thinkings encouraged by the Enlightenment.
Yup, you’re correct, I more or less confused the two, though Luther did help to get the corruption of the Church under some control (would there even have been an Enlightenment if there had not first been a Reformation? And What If Daredevil had been deaf?)
(Then again, if Christians can try to claim that they’re under attack in the ninety-percent Christian United States, I suppose anything is possible.)
I thought it was a great post…. but it got knocked down into the okay category once this tired (to me) old canard got written along with it.
One can claim that implicit morals taught and portrayed in the contemporary popular media runs contrary to the teachings of the Bible and that claim would not be far off.
One can also claim that 90% of the United State is Christian but if that is really true why does so little of the contemporary popular media and popular culture reflect the teachings of the Christian Bible?
Worse off… a lot of people claim to be a Christian or claim to believe in God but why on Earth should we the philosopher or we the thinker or we the Sophist or we the Cynic or we the Bible-Thumping, Scripture-reading Christian believe that the Jesus/God character(s) that most of the people believe in remotely matches up to the Christ I read about in the Bible?
That 90% figure includes all the people who believe that Jesus isn’t one who matches the description found in the Gospels.
With all due respect, I would suggest that it is time we stop saying things like “the United States is 90% Christian. I have been on this planet for over 50 years and I have met perhaps six or seven Christians. Because if you don’t practice what ol’ J.C. taught, you ain’t a Christian. By that standard, I doubt 1% of the United States is Christian.
All hail your hero:
http://www.gortreport.com
James Carter wrote, “Here is an interesting thought that just struck me (and I have the bruise to prove it.) Islam was founded in the 7th century, right? IE, about 600 AD. So that means that they are about 600 years “behind” Christianity, historically speaking.”
Err, no.
Islam was, at least for its first five hundred years, a more advanced civilization than Christian Europe. The Crusades exposed Europe to the ancient knowledge and technologies that Europe had lost in the Dark Ages.
What happened is that where Christianity had a Reformation and Counter-Reformation, Islam remained stagnant. Christianity modernized and adapted to the world, Islam hasn’t.
” I have met perhaps six or seven Christians. Because if you don’t practice what ol’ J.C. taught, you ain’t a Christian. By that standard, I doubt 1% of the United States is Christian.”
Amen to that one Rev.
Ya know, so many folks out there wear the title of “Christian” like a badge of honor…but rarely practice the philosophy behind it…yes, they go to church on Sunday…but only to use the church as a social club or network system…I am not saying ALL Christians are this way…but I have found that quite a few are…have they even read the book that they preach from…? Sometimes I wonder…
Antisemitism is very much like a disease — an especially powerful strain of racism.
One of the symptoms of the problem in the Muslim world is its suseptibility to antisemitism.
I doubt any leader in the world will admit that his government has been lying, even if the policies change drastically. But change does happen, in the Arab world too, although very slowly. Egypt has made peace with Israel, and Israeli tourists visit it, but they still promote antisemitism. It’s a slow process.
I hope that antisemitism will be reduced as things change in the muslim world, the same way that racism against blacks has been reduced in the US after the changes in segregation policies. But I don’t know how the Muslim world can be cured or how long it will take.
“One can claim that implicit morals taught and portrayed in the contemporary popular media runs contrary to the teachings of the Bible and that claim would not be far off.”
To suggest that this is an attack on Christians is like saying that the Danish cartoons are an attack against Muslims.
“With all due respect, I would suggest that it is time we stop saying things like “the United States is 90% Christian. I have been on this planet for over 50 years and I have met perhaps six or seven Christians. Because if you don’t practice what ol’ J.C. taught, you ain’t a Christian. By that standard, I doubt 1% of the United States is Christian.”
Under this definition even during the middle-ages most people were not christian, nor are the majority of people calling themselves muslims muslim.
What are you the inquisition? If somebody calls himself a Christian, celebrates the holidays etc. you are going to revoke his christianity because he is not really really a christian according to your definition of what it really really means to be a christian according to your definition?
“One can also claim that 90% of the United State is Christian but if that is really true why does so little of the contemporary popular media and popular culture reflect the teachings of the Christian Bible?”
Even in more religious times there were secular aspects of popular culture besides he religious ones. However, American popular culture often has hidden or partially hidden Christian/religious ideas in it. I’m not only refering to the annual christmas chapter on most series, or the tendancy to view atheism as a flaw. If you look crtically on some movies you will notice Christian themes like redemption or sacrifice for the sins of others.
With all due respect, I would suggest that it is time we stop saying things like “the United States is 90% Christian. I have been on this planet for over 50 years and I have met perhaps six or seven Christians. Because if you don’t practice what ol’ J.C. taught, you ain’t a Christian. By that standard, I doubt 1% of the United States is Christian.
While that may be true, it is also true that the vast majority (the numbers I’ve seen in polls is closer to 80% though) at least claim to be Christians. As a rule of thumb, I’ve found that the more vocal one is about their piety, the further off the mark their personal behavior is to the teachings of Jesus.
The real problem stems from the self-righteous bunch who buy into the nonsense that Bill O’Reilly and others spew out about there being an organized assault on Christmas.
One can claim that implicit morals taught and portrayed in the contemporary popular media runs contrary to the teachings of the Bible and that claim would not be far off.
Popular media, like any other business, produces what the market wants to buy. If the popular media is producing shows that run counter to the teachings of the Bible, that’s not opporession of Christianity. That’s simply an indication many people are entertained by watching people do things that either 1) They wouldn’t do themselves or 2) Don’t want others to know that they do it to. That’s not an assault on Christianity. That’s simply people being hypocritical.
It always amazes me how many conservatives will argue that the magic of the invisible hand of the market will give us an excellent educational system, clean air and water, and affordable healthcare, yet shriek in horror at the suggestion that the market should decide what sorts of entertainment is available to the great unwashed.
One of the symptoms of the problem in the Muslim world is its suseptibility to antisemitism.
Sixty years of living under one party systems and monarchies that “prime the pump” by blaming every one of their problems on the Jews will do that to a people.
If you look crtically on some movies you will notice Christian themes like redemption or sacrifice for the sins of others.
And here is another problem: yes, most people in this country are Christian, but by no means are such themes the domain of Christianity alone.
While there might not be any stories BC that outright use the word ‘sin’, such stories and themes existed long before Christ was born. The big difference with Christ is the scale. 🙂
“What are you the inquisition?”
Can you say gross overreaction to what was posted..?
“If somebody calls himself a Christian, celebrates the holidays etc. you are going to revoke his christianity because he is not really really a christian according to your definition of what it really really means to be a christian according to your definition?”
No, but it would be nice if more would practice what they preach to others. Don’t get me wrong…the philosophy behind Christianity is fantastic…unconditional love, tolerance, acceptance, equality…but you can’t shove this philosophy in people’s faces when you are dámņ shy of being in that place yourself…like a lot of christians are…too many of them live by the do as I say, not as I do creedo. I have personally found that a lot of “Christians” out there can be the most narrow-minded, two-faced, judgemental,greedy, self-important people out there…is that true for other religions and other life styles??? You betcha…but it seems that a lot (and note that I have been saying “A LOT”, not “ALL”) of Christians are too high-handed about it…
“One can also claim that 90% of the United State is Christian but if that is really true why does so little of the contemporary popular media and popular culture reflect the teachings of the Christian Bible?”
Because the modern world is growing away from the parables of the Bible…that is good and bad…while the lessons it teaches us are great and more people should follow them…the actual stories of burning bushes and parting seas become harder to accept…
Den:It always amazes me how many conservatives will argue that the magic of the invisible hand of the market will give us an excellent educational system, clean air and water, and affordable healthcare, yet shriek in horror at the suggestion that the market should decide what sorts of entertainment is available to the great unwashed.
Wow. That may be the most cutting, succinct and intelligent way to sum up my problems with the uber-right.
Thanks, Den!