I’m sorry if this question sounds harsh, but there’s no other way to phrase it: What the hëll is wrong with the bulk of Christians in this country that if Jesus is depicted as loving and accepting, that portrayal is stoned into oblivion, but if he’s depicted as being beaten and tortured to death, THAT they come flocking to watch by the busload?
“The Book of Daniel” was an incredibly good program that was quick-fried by people who, for the most part, hadn’t seen it or refused to see it. Critics and commentators loved demonizing concepts such as that the titular minister “popped pills” without bothering to mention it wasn’t speed or uppers or downers but pain killers…an addiction he was wrestling with rather than being glorified. Or that his daughter “dealt drugs,” without bothering to mention that it was a stupid mistake she was busted for in the first five minutes of the show, and she quickly gave it up, and that she was doing it to raise money to publish her own manga comic since she was really an artist. Nor did anyone ever bring up the many scenes where the family was shown as a loving, caring group who never hesitated to display that love for one another.
But what really drew fire was the concept of Jesus as a patient sounding board for the frustrated Daniel. If they’d only bothered to actually WATCH the program, rather than allow blowhards to make up their minds for them, they’d have seen a depiction of their savior that’s probably the most heart warming and loving version of divinity since George Burns explained, “I didn’t create the universe in six days. Actually, I thought about it for five days and did it in one. I work best under pressure. But my days aren’t the same as yours, y’know. When I got up this morning, Sigmund Freud was in medical school.”
Sample the triumphant words of Donald Wildmon: “This shows the average American that he doesn’t have to simply sit back and take the trash being offered on TV, but he can get involved and fight back with his pocketbook.”
No. What it shows is that the average American is intolerant. So much so that he couldn’t JUST make the decision to try a program for himself and, if he didn’t like it, change the channel or even, God forbid, turn off the TV and read a book. No, the average American had to do everything possible to make sure that OTHER average Americans couldn’t judge for THEMselves by organizing and driving a series off the air. Of course, what most burned their biscuits was Jesus being depicted as being tolerant of sinners or even (gasp) gays. If Jesus had been shown as condemning all aspects of sin and assuring Daniel that his gay son was doomed to hëll, THAT they might well have supported.
But for Jesus to display tolerance of sinners…for Wildmon to display tolerance of other Americans rather than organize to drive quality shows off the air? Can’t have that, no, no. Because…well, because why, exactly? Aren’t Christians supposed to be charitable, tolerant, understanding? I was pretty much sure that was part of the teachings.
What is it about human beings that we constantly create codes of conduct for ourselves with lofty ideals–tolerance, love thy neighbor, judge not lest ye be judged, free expression–and then not only fail to live up to them, but TAKE PRIDE in that failure? It’s an interesting question, I think. Too bad shows such as “The Book of Daniel,” where such questions might be explored, are being canned.
PAD
• 
Hollywood has such a horrendous track record as far as treating Christianity with any respect, I don’t blame people for assuming this show wouldn’t be any different. Certainly people like Wildmon are idiots, but you’re acting like everyone who didn’t watch the show fell under his spell. My wife and I didn’t tune in not because of the bad press the show got, but because there was no reason to assume this show would be any different than all the others Hollywood has puked out, trying to “cash in” on the success of The Passion (I read in one EW article where a producer was saying “fly-over” people would flock to Da Vinci Code because it was “one of those religious stories, like The Passion”).
To answer the last question Peter my best guess is, because we can. I do not understand most of the stupid things we do to each other.
I dont think I ever will.
This is why parts of the MLK episode of Boondocks rang so true. They showed a counterfactual situation in which MLK was merely in a coma until 2000, and then got pilloried for advocating turning the other cheek after 9/11.
For most people, “Christian Forgiveness” means only “Christ should forgive ME”.
“Hollywood has such a horrendous track record as far as treating Christianity with any respect, I don’t blame people for assuming this show wouldn’t be any different.”
I do. I mean, to a certain degree I also blame the amazingly crappy timeslot, but yes, I absolutely do blame people for making that assumption. First of all, making assumptions in general is a bad habit (“Never assume…it makes an ášš of u and me.”) And second, if Christians truly think they’re being ill-used by Hollywood, then refusing to sample new shows which the producers swear is respectful simply assures that such series will not survive. You guys are the target audience. If the target audience turns its back without even giving it a chance, then what sort of message does that send to the producers? “Don’t bother?”
How will things ever change for the better if people just figure they never will?
By the way, understand that I’m not pointing any finger of blame at you and your wife for the demise of the series, since I’m figuring the odds of your opinion mattering are pretty slim. By “mattering,” of course, I mean if you have a Nielsen box. If you don’t have a box, then it doesn’t matter whether you shunned the series or embraced it.
PAD
Hollywood has such a horrendous track record as far as treating Christianity with any respect, I don’t blame people for assuming this show wouldn’t be any different.
Yeah, thank God they drove such horrendous portrayals of Christianity like Highway to Heaven, 7th Heaven, and Touched by an Angel off the air because Hollywood always portrays Christians as bumbling fools. /sarcasm
Wildmon’s crowing at the cancellation of Book of Daniel makes it clear why the “just change the freakin’ channel” argument doesn’t work against groups like his. Their ultimate agenda is get everything taken off the air that they don’t agree with so that the only view presented is their own.
While Steve’s point about Hollywood’s track record is true, I have to wonder if you’re not confusing the LOUDEST of Christians for the BULK of us. Nothing I heard about the show made me think it was going to be exceptionally insulting to my faith, but there was also nothing making me think that it was worth watching “live” (I buy individual comics, but for most TV shows, I’m a TPB type viewer — as often as not, I wait for the DVDs). I suspect that most Christians fall into that undecided “Silent Majority” category as well.
I’m neither pleased nor upset that the show was cancelled, but it is annoying whwn anything (TV shows, comics, etc.) is cancelled without getting a fair shot at finding its market.
I watched the two-hour pilot/premier. I thought it was okay, but not so great that I was going to make concerted effort to watch it or tape it if I wasn’t going to be home.
I had no problem at all with the depiction of Jesus. It was most of the rest of the characters that were over-the-top. They seemed like exactly the kind of characters that are only found on television. For instance, when the Catholic priest helped the Episcopalian priest find the missing building fund money he told him he had to use a mob-connected construction firm. Yeah, every Catholic priest is mobbed-up. Please. It was a soap opera with the hook being that the main character sees Jesus.
That said, I didn’t write any letters of protest or participate in any boycott. I just thought “ehh.”
Seeing as my sister is one of those non tolerant uber-christians who never saw this show and was calling for it’s axe, like the rest of her church, I couldn’t agree more with your statements about the state of the bulk of Christians. See, unfortunately, I hear about this type of thing all of the time, as she never gives up trying to save me…I shouldn’t watch this…I shouldn’t read that…don’t listen to them…It’s all the same. Last I checked, I had my own moral compass and it worked just fine. But, the most apt refrence in the bible is a shepard tending to his sheep, because for a large ammout or bulk of christians, that’s all they really are…sheep…sheep who do whatever their pastor says…if a movie is bad in their eyes…it’s bad in the eyes of their congregation and there is no room for one to make their own determination. So, instead of keeping their ignorance to themselves, they make sure they tell you shouldn’t see the movie. They make sure their word is heard. Last time I checked in on one of those little get togethers, the only word that was supposed to matter came from their bible…not from their pastor or religious organization. But all in all, it’s too bad as this was a good show, but the outcome was inevitable…just wish the producers would have included flashbacks every few episodes to jesus’ crucifiction…would have garnered it atleast a full season probably. But what do I know…I’m going to hëll.
Peter, I’ll take except with one thing you said — I don’t think it’s the bulk of Christians in the country, but the loud, obnoxious bullies. Wildmon certainly doesn’t speak for me and I really wish he’s stop believing in my God because he’s making the rest of us look stupid.
Trust me, I’ve had more than one run-in with the people you’re speaking of, those who take a message of love, forgiveness and hope and twist it into “I’m because I the “right way” but you’re so going to Hëll because you don’t believe the same as me. That means I can treat you badly here on earth because you’re not worth anything anyway, because, hey, you’re going to Hëll!”
Have I mentioned these self-righteous people also feel they get to decide who’s a Christian and who’s not, so if you don’t fit their definition, you fall among the heathen, no matter your personal beliefs.
I enjoyed Daniel and I’m not pleased it was pulled by a network that appears to have no spine as well as flopping around like a dying fish trying to find viewers. Actually, my priest and I have been discussing it the last few weeks; I’m an Episcopalian, so this was our demonination that was being shown. He found it too “soap opera-y” for his taste, but that was his main criticism; as for the rest, we could name people within our diocese whom could have been a model for some of these characters (especially the Senior Warden).
It’s a pity it wasn’t given a chance to find an audience because I think it would have eventually — the loud “Christian” bullies who are determined to drive everything they don’t agree with off the airwaves notwithstanding.
Sorry but while I agree with the general point of your discussion, the show was just boring. That’s why it was cancelled. No one watched it.
I wish this show had been given more time to find its footing.
I am hoping that it might (like so many other network shows) make the move to cablen and find a home there.
I have to disagree with a few points here. First off, and obviously this is strictly a matter of opinion, I thought the show was terrible. Not offensive, just predictable and dull. Jesus was the best part but it wasn’t enough. If Wildmon and co spent any effort to get this show canned they were wasting thier time, I knew it was a goner by the end of episode 1.
As for the protests, while I agree the show was nothing to get bent out of shape over, selling drugs to finance a manga comic doesn’t make it any less reprehensible to me than if it finances sneaker purchases. I’m glad it was a one time deal but it doesn’t say much for the family that their daughter was dealing drugs. Similarly, popping pain killers (and aren’t they “downers”?)illegally gets you fired and possibly sent to jail. I know this from family experience. Yeah, it’s not as bad as snorting crystal meth but I didn’t hear much sympathy for Rush Limbaugh when he got caught taking enough painkillers to sedate a T Rex.
But you are correct that condemning a TV show sight unseen or assuming the worst about it is as contemptable as when it was done to The Passion. Sadly, Daniel just wasn’t that good.
Again, I didn’t watch the show. I have no idea whether it truly was insulting toward Christianity or not. I’m assuming not, for the sake of discussion.
Since 7th Heaven was mentioned, I feel obligated to say that, given the choice, I’d rather Christians were portrayed the way some have described this show (flawed human beings who aren’t perfect and don’t believe they’re perfect) than the way that 7th Heaven portrays us. Reverend Camden and his family are nice enough people, but I think they’re too “perfect”, by and large. It makes for boring TV, and it reinforces stereotypes about Christians. Not so much that people see the Camdens and think that’s how we are, but they get the impression that that’s how WE think we are. if that makes any sense. Speaking for myself, I know I’m flawed. I struggle with temptation daily, and more often than not, it kicks my butt. Christianity, to me, has less to do with being perfect and judgemental toward others, and more to do with relying on the grace of God while trying to emulate His walk while He was here.
I can’t believe this, but I am about to use a phrase from Michael Savage.
Sheep-le.
Thats what the majority of evangelical Christians are. Rest assured PAD, most of us are nice people. We don’t have rabies, and we read the parts of the Bible about forgiveness and love, and that part where Jesus drove the money changers out for “turning my Fathers house into a den of thieves.” (“Pat Robertson, severely pìššëd øff Deity on line one.”)
These Sheep-le that pretend to speak for the rest of us are simply people who aren’t quite bad enough to join Fred Phelps, but aren’t nice enough to show little things like….I don’t know….charity? forgiveness? Love?
And, if I might make a proposition….We have called these people “Fundamentalists” long enough. Fundamentalist suggests that they are actually following the Fundamentals of Christianity. (like…uhh..forgiveness? Charity? Love? Bake-sales?) As it so happens, I consider MYSELF a fundamentalist. I believe in Jesus, I believe that he died to save me, and that I am goin’ to heaven. I DO NOT notice nothing in there about…say….gay marraige?
I propose that we all try to start calling them what they REALLY are: extremists. Or hypocrites. Or X-treme Hypocrites.
Just my two cents.
PAD wrote:-
What it shows is that the average American is intolerant.
And in other news, water is still wet.
Thank you for the George Burns quote in the mid of all this depressing, awful truth. I hadn’t come across it before – wonderfully refreshing.
While I agree that censorship is hardly a valid response (it seems it’s the solution of choice for blowhards who don’t trust the strength of their own argument or convinction to withstand opposing voices), I have to admit being pertubed myself at the general consensus lately that it’s perfectly appropriate to use whatever liberal bias one may have and present it as Christ’s viewpoint in order to validate it.
Just to play Devil’s Advocate, if a TV show had a comic book writer named Peter David (I apologize for using you as an example, Peter – but it’s your thread) and used him to vocalize comments like, “The Nazi persecution of Jews was warranted,” or “Only the stupid and lazy are victimized by capitalism,” I would expect Peter to be angry — not just incensed by the comments, but that the show used his name and likeness to sell them with little concern of his actual perspective.
Of course, I don’t know Peter, so I can’t speak for him — which is kinda the point.
Just to use homosexuality as an example, the Bible is very clear in a number of Scriptures as to what its perspective on it is. One has the option of agreeing or disagreeing, but not to superimpose his own perspective as the original, which is done a lot lately — even by so-called religious ambassadors (which I don’t get — if you’re a priest but don’t want to present what the Bible says, why are you a priest?).
If you want shows to display human foibles and characters of clay, I’m all for it. But I think it’s very dangerous to confuse patience or “Christian Tolerance” with actual endorsement or a complete lack of standards. After all, it’s not like the book of Revelation is about sitting in a field of cute bunnies.
Our country recognizes the right to free speech — but they never said you get to use someone else’s right, too.
I’m going to agree with some of the people here. I only watched a little bit of the show and thought it wasn’t nearly as good as many of the critics were calling it. Now, however, with Wildmon and others crowing about how they’ve brought it down, I wish NBC would have at least tried moving it to another time slot or something to give the show another chance.
Since 7th Heaven was mentioned, I feel obligated to say that, given the choice, I’d rather Christians were portrayed the way some have described this show (flawed human beings who aren’t perfect and don’t believe they’re perfect) than the way that 7th Heaven portrays us. Reverend Camden and his family are nice enough people, but I think they’re too “perfect”, by and large. It makes for boring TV, and it reinforces stereotypes about Christians.
7th Heaven wasn’t my thing either, but a lot of people did like it, including my niece. If they were a “too perfect” family, well, that’s hardly new in the world of sitcoms and family dramas. I mentioned it only because I’m sick and tired of hearing the whine about how Hollywood “always” portrays Christians negatively.
So, 7th Heaven is bad because they’re too perfect and Daniel is bad because they’re too flawed.
No pleasing some people, I guess.
For instance, when the Catholic priest helped the Episcopalian priest find the missing building fund money he told him he had to use a mob-connected construction firm. Yeah, every Catholic priest is mobbed-up
IIRC, the priest did make a comment or two to the effect that that his superiors disapproved of his having, & sometimes using, those connections.
======================
The main problem the fundies had with this program was gays. The show’s creator / writer is gay, the show has several gays (the way some of them keep switching who knows), & the ones who were gay were accepted not only by their families, but by their church.
They likewise are getting their panties in a bunch because one of the lead actors in “End ofthe Spear” is gay.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48422
=========================
BTW, aren’t these the same “Christians” who claim that their the ‘persecuted minority’ who has ‘no say in how things are run’?
I didn’t see THE BOOK OF DANIEL. This wasn’t for religions reasons — I’m a fundamentalist Agnostic — but because it looked like more of the soap opera/every single person has a problem or dark secret series. I didn’t have a problem with Jesus appearing: He shows up a lot on RESCUE ME, and Mary Magdalen is there as his girlfriend.
One of the big fears of the Christian fundamentalists (shouldn’t that be an oxymoron?) is ANY portrayal of acceptance, or even tolerance, towards the gay community. They believe any view of homosexuality as anything other than evil is endorsement of that lifestyle. So a show where a religious person is tolerant, even accepting, to his gay son? That’s wrong and must be destroyed.
I also wouldn’t pay too much heed to those claiming they got this show cancelled. Religious nuts claim credit for everything from hurricances to strokes. If the #s were there, THE BOOK OF DANIEL would still be on the air. I’ve heard complaints and calls for protest to DSPERATE HOUSEWIVES, but that’s not going anywhere.
I have to admit being pertubed myself at the general consensus lately that it’s perfectly appropriate to use whatever liberal bias one may have and present it as Christ’s viewpoint in order to validate it.
I guess it’s only okay to use whatever conservative bias one may have and present it as Christ’s viewpoint order to validate it.
I would expect Peter to be angry — not just incensed by the comments, but that the show used his name and likeness to sell them with little concern of his actual perspective.
Not a valid comparison at all. You’re talking about using PAD’s personal name and likeness to deny the holocast vs. a family that happened to be headed by an Episcopal Priest. Portraying PAD by name as a holocast denier is a pretty solid case of libel whereas, as far as I could tell, the show never claimed to be representative of any particular real individual or family. It was a show about one family’s turmoil but because the family happens to be a very religious one, showing them as having some serious problems is somehow verbotin.
Now, admitting, the show was over the top, as few families have that much drama going on all at once, but that’s television.
A more valid comparison is the way some Jewish groups tried to get theaters to stop showing the Passion, which I don’t agree with either.
If you want shows to display human foibles and characters of clay, I’m all for it. But I think it’s very dangerous to confuse patience or “Christian Tolerance” with actual endorsement or a complete lack of standards.
Which I didn’t get from the little of the show I watched. I saw a man who had standards and was struggling to balance those standards with his love for his family.
But I suppose if he had simply tossed his gay son and his pot dealing daughter out into the street, Wildmon would have cheered.
I seem to recall reading about some guy who, 2000 years ago, sat down and ate with the sinners and tried to use love to pursuade them to change their ways. Now, what was his name again?
BTW, aren’t these the same “Christians” who claim that their the ‘persecuted minority’ who has ‘no say in how things are run’?
It seems that many in the fundamentalist crowd want to play it both ways. They’re the persecuted minority when it suits them (ie, the vast but imaginary conspiracy against Christmas), but as soon as a show they don’t like is cancelled, they start strutting about the power they have.
I also wouldn’t pay too much heed to those claiming they got this show cancelled. Religious nuts claim credit for everything from hurricances to strokes. If the #s were there, THE BOOK OF DANIEL would still be on the air. I’ve heard complaints and calls for protest to DSPERATE HOUSEWIVES, but that’s not going anywhere.
One reason to be concerned is that every victory for them, real or imagined, just encourages them to push even harder on their censorship agenda.
Daniel was getting terrible numbers, but it’s also possible that if it weren’t for the pressure groups, NBC might have been willing to move it to a better time slot or try to cross promote it more in an effort to give it another chance.
I think we’re being a bit general here in that it isn’t christians as a whole as much as it is loud ignorant christians. saying most christians are intolerant would be like saying most jews are rich or funny. It’s not true. However, it’s not surprising that people get the message wrong, after all people are still human prone to mistake and error. Unfortunatly we’re still not in an open-minded enough society (through any theological belief) that anyone can feel safe sharing a true vision of their God and understanding thereof. It happened to monty python, it happened to Kevin Smith, it’d happen to Peter David, and it would happen to anyone. But I wouldn’t say it was “christians” I’d say it was “people”. As I recall there was a lack of support for “Passion” in hollywood and a number of people upset at it’s portrayal of the jewish. Ah, to be human.
I think we’re being a bit general here in that it isn’t christians as a whole as much as it is loud ignorant christians.
But it’s the loud, ignorant ones that claim to speak for all Christians while the quiet, thoughtful ones remain too quiet. It’s beyond time for someone who isn’t a complete fascist to reclaim Christianity in this country.
Amen Peter!
Unfortunately you’re “preaching to the choir” here. How to you get those “unenlightened souls” out there to listen?
“What is it about human beings that we constantly create codes of conduct for ourselves with lofty ideals–tolerance, love thy neighbor, judge not lest ye be judged, free expression–and then not only fail to live up to them, but TAKE PRIDE in that failure? It’s an interesting question, I think. Too bad shows such as “The Book of Daniel,” where such questions might be explored, are being canned.”
Well said. On my Coherent Rant-O-Meter, this gets a nine out of ten.
JAB
How to you get those “unenlightened souls” out there to listen?
You don’t. They don’t want to listen. Because if they did, they might develop the ability to think for themselves, and that is probably their biggest fear of all.
Or maybe it got cancelled because it wasn’t especially good and had a really crappy timeslot. The vast majority of TV shows fail, including many far better than this one, so why should it be any different — or its failure be reflective of anything other than the fact that its ratings declined starkly after a first airing that wasn’t very good to begin with? The likes of Wildmon may preen and take credit for this, but the fact of the matter is that if anyone had actually watched the bloody show it would still be on the air. I may as well take credit for the cancellation of Heather Graham’s sitcom.
I’m Mormon, [Run, Run For the Hills People! :)] But My feeling based upon the Promos NBC had with the background Music that Jesus’ Appearance was going to be played for laughs. Now that may have been what some of the objection was. It was certainly my objection, which is why I didn’t watch it. However, I’m sure the main objection was Jesus’s presence on a National Television Broadcast Network was blasphemous and criminal enough, especially based solely on the promos. I actually was surprised that My NBC affiliate, which is LDS owned, actually gave it a chance, since there have been a few other shows consigned to after midnight hours, moved to another station, or not shown altogether.
I ulitmately feel that while most Christians found the Presence of Jesus intolerant to them the cancellation was more NBC Promotions’s fault, since they gave the impression that Jesus was going to be played for laughs.
But it’s the loud, ignorant ones that claim to speak for all Christians while the quiet, thoughtful ones remain too quiet. It’s beyond time for someone who isn’t a complete fascist to reclaim Christianity in this country.
It isn’t the Christians who are acting like the extremists are speaking for them. I find it’s generally non-Christians and/or media types who do so.
And Christianity no more needs to be reclaimed from them, than liberalism needs to be reclaimed from the daily kossacks who are vandalizing Amazon.com when someone publishes a book they’d rather burn than see others read. In both cases a small group is making noise but does not represent to vast majority.
PAD –
Aren’t Christians supposed to be charitable, tolerant, understanding?
They are?
Most of them are “selective readers”. Which means, they read the parts they want, believe the parts they want, and the rest just gets in the way.
Now, while it may only be the vocal miniority that go after tv, books, and so forth, the great majority certainly fall under the selective readers portion of the population.
James –
I have to admit being pertubed myself at the general consensus lately that it’s perfectly appropriate to use whatever liberal bias one may have and present it as Christ’s viewpoint in order to validate it.
And yet you presume to know Christ’s viewpoint and how he would think on issues?
You presume to know that, even if Jesus was against homosexuality, that he would condemn these people to Hëll? That doesn’t really sound like his style, does it?
JamesLynch –
but because it looked like more of the soap opera/every single person has a problem or dark secret series.
How are the ratings for “Desperate Housewives” doing? Or any day time soap opera?
People watch this crap. Even Pat Robertson-wannabe Christians, and they have no problem doing so.
But to touch the subject of religion? Well, šhìŧ, better break out the witch hunts.
I think that if Christians were as “tolerant” as Peter wanted them to be, the whole “heaven or hëll” thing would’ve gone out the window a long time ago. Christianity does require judgement calls and “intolerance” and standing against things that the individual considers ungodly.
A perpetual shrug isn’t going to suffice.
And why not do it with the pocketbook? We are capitalists, after all. Better that than enact stupid laws that fly in the face of the limited government we once had.
Having said that, given NBC’s recent ratings woes, I would’ve advised against taking action. Let the problem take care of itself. Bring out the big guns for something that’s worth it.
-Dave O’Connell
Now I’m not saying that Christains are correct in saying they are unfairly portrayed…but does nayone think that there is any even microscopic chance that there could be a TV show about Muslims where (hold my sides!) the Prophet Muhammad is a character? Anyone? Bueller?
For that matter, if Kanye West dressed up like Muhammad for a Rolling Stone cover I’d shake his hand for the sheer ballsiness of it…of course, I’d probably need a shovel to dig him up before I could do it…
But that will never ever happen. It would be considered insensitive…
Honestly, I only saw about 10 minutes of this show. And to be honest again, I have no idea if what I am going to say has any merit in regards to the previous arguments, as I only skimmed through them. But this is what I feel…
As a Catholic/Christian (non practicing however) I have had more than enough schooling on religion. And as a Christian, we are taught to believe that Jesus lives in everyone, and are supposed to have “conversations” with him. Through prayer, or however. I have no idea the actual intentions of the writers/producers. However, what these morons have now shown me is (and I mean the Christian morons) that if Jesus did actually speak to me, it needs to be approved by them. Because if Jesus is telling me something they don’t agree with, I’m going to be in big big trouble.
That is a sad thing, considering none of these people were around when Jesus was. No one actually knows exactly how he lived, or exactly what he said. Everything passed down has some level of human bias to it.
If Jesus appears to someone in a dream (supposedly done many many times in the Bible) and says: I love homosexuals, I just don’t like the act of homosexuality (which is what is actually in the bible. Its about the sin, not the sinner)…Christians would tell me I was crazy, and god knows what else.
If Jesus appeared to me in a dream and said: All homosexuals are going to hëll…I’d probably be made head of the church.
Thats a sad, disgusting state of affairs. And unfortunately, its how alot of people outside the group, view the group. How is it that a man/god who preached tolerance and love, spawned this current type of attitude?
If a tv show, or movie depicts any type of relationship with Jesus, I cant see that being a bad thing at all.
Den wrote:
So, 7th Heaven is bad because they’re too perfect and Daniel is bad because they’re too flawed.
To be fair, Den, my opinion on 7th Heaven may not be widespread — it obviously plays well for some people — and I’m certainly not one of those who dismissed Daniel because the family was too flawed; the show just didn’t interest me.
What a silly, silly comment. On what basis do you conclude that your observation applies to “the bulk of Christians in this country”?
As to the success of “The Passion Of The Christ” (which is what I assume you’re referring to, when you refer to an acceptance of the brutal end of the Christ story) and the failure of “Book of Daniel,” — it’s all down to marketing. Gibson’s movie did gangbuster business because they were _very_ smart and “evangelized” (ho ho) the religious community into getting parishioners interested in the flick.
So why did “Daniel” fail? You can’t jump to the conclusion that Christians thought “The show depicts Jesus as a friendly, approachable counselor and we can’t abide that.” I didn’t watch it because I saw all the promos…and they all sucked.
“Meet Daniel! He’s a pill addict! His brother-in-law stole millions from his church and was found dead with lots of things jammed up his butt! Plus the brother-in-law’s wife has gone gay! And she’s sleeping with the brother-in-law’s mistress! And whoah…whoah! His own _son_ is gay, too and his daughter’s dealing drugs! And it looks like he’ll have to do a deal with the Mafia to get the money back! And…”
I don’t have the commercial in front of me but that was it, point for point. The show came across as a hopeless mess even before Jesus yelled “Shotgun!” and climbed into the guy’s station wagon.
I’d guess that there are lots (and lots and LOTS) more people in America offended by gays than there are Christians offended by the idea of a priest talking to Jesus. And yet “Will & Grace” has made it to eight seasons.
This may be a stupid question, but have the networks in such times ever considered… airing the show anyway?
This is what pìššëš me off the most about television–they don’t have the cajones to stick with their programming decisions. They put this show on the air for a reason, and now they’re going to let the bottom line kill it. Quality be dámņëd. The same thing happened to the Clerks cartoon; someone decided it was offensive and they lost a lot of sponsors. Family Guy almost went the same route, (they went for the Hitler joke in the very first episode), but they got lucky and found their audience with Simpsons refugees.
It must be nice being so religious, and thus being so absolutely certain of what is right and wrong. Maybe it’s the gay Black Nazi in me, but I always thought the world was a complicated place. And heaven forbid that you portray it that way on television and try to connect it to anything blatantly religious. (Thus we know the secret to Lost‘s success–implied religion, not blatant. Lost is the perfect example of a show where people see what they want to see and ignore everything else.)
“I may as well take credit for the cancellation of Heather Graham’s sitcom.”
Ha! (Noone is blaming the intolerance of Christians on that one, thankfully)
And this is the rub. I think Wildmon is taking credit where none is due. Shows are constantly cancelled two or three episodes in due to low ratings. And honestly, I heard about protests, but the opposition to the Passion of the Christ was louder than the opposition to this show.
All of the people I know who were critical of the show (Christian or Otherwise) watched it, and had a myriad of complaints.
The defense that there are other popular shows that are soap operatic is really a non-defense. Lost is popular-does that mean any spooky show set on a remote island should get equal ratings? Or is there a chance that folks who love Lost would find “Can’t Be found”(TM) and “Missing in the Ocean”(TM)less than enjoyable?
NBC should have given it more time. But then, you can say the same about Fox, CBS and ABC and any number of shows they shot down after a few scant episodes.
I just don’t see proof that Wildmon is the reason the show did not succeed. It got really low ratings and NBC gave up.
Regarding, 7th Heaven – it has lasted 10 seasons and at times it has been the most popular show on the WB. This is the last season because they don’t think it is making enough additional money with the cast salaries the way they are. There is probably going to be a spinoff next season on the CW with a subset of the cast. I have watched all the episodes with my daughter. While it does get a bit preachy at times, I don’t find the Camdens “perfect”. They all get into troubles of one kind or another. If they didn’t, it would be hard for there to be any dramatic conflict and the show would have been taken off the air a long time ago.
Neil
I totally agree with you, Peter.
When I first saw the previews for the show, Ithought it not might be up my ally. I didn’t want someone taking potshots at my faith. (notice I didn’t call for it to be taken off the air, only that I wouldn’t be watching it).
Well, I found myself bored on the Friday it premiered and gave it a whirl. I was impressed and thought the depiction of Christ was spot on.
At first, the pastor condoning premarital sex amongst his parishioners bothered me, but than I realized this was an extremely liberal Episcopalian church. A very liberal sect of Christianity.
Jesus never condoned ANY of the behavior that could be considered sinful by ANY sect.
I despise those who say the show was about “pill-popping” priest. He’s flawed! No one’s perfect!!!!
People piss me off.
Hoepfully, the show will find a home on cable or at least the reaming filmed episodes will make their way to DVD.
JOHN!
The show was not given the chance.
Many local networks would not show it because of the complaints. Advertisers pulled out. I believe one of the quotes from the NBC guys was “Thank god for the Mattress King or they would all be NBC commercials.”
NBC really had no choice but to pull the plug.
It isn’t the Christians who are acting like the extremists are speaking for them.
And that isn’t what I said either. I said the extremists claim that they are speaking for all Christians, not that all Christians believe that the extremists speak for them.
PAD,
Nice try. But your analysis is a bunch of baloney. Christians did not kill this program, bad ratings did.
Did I watch it? Yes, for about 15 minutes. As someone who has family who are in ministry, the portrayal was a joke. This was a political show with religion as window dressing.
Did I hate the portrayal of Jesus? Not particularly. I agree that Jesus is far more patient and loving than often portrayed. I think he would have said more at times than he did, but no big deal.
I know this is all about tolerance to you, but think of it this way: If you are aiming for tolerance, you might not push things so far. I think this was too over the top for most people. It didn’t ring true. Desperate Housewives gets away with it, but a program rooted in a religious setting has a harder time.
This program would not have lasted even if it had all the advertising in the world. The problem is it was written for a very narrow audience.
Case in point: Will and Grace. It has suceeded, in spite of attempts to derail it. Why? Because even I think it is funny at times. I can only manage about 10 minutes before the sexual references are beyond what I can take, but the show works. I am sure the actors of Daniel are great, and the writer is talented. But I have seen enough and read enough to believe it was too much and too over the top to work.
I happen to love The Vicar of Dibley. Talk about an irreverent and even, at times, heretical show. (The sexual jokes are worse, at times, than Will and Grace.) I can be tolerant. My dislike for Daniel is based on the show, not just that it happens to disagree with my theology.
Bottom line, America takes religion more seriously than perhaps you and some in Hollywood realize. And that is NOT a bad thing. Looked at in the bigger picture, America is more loving because of religion, not less loving. (Just look at the response to Katrina. Churches were often the first there, freely giving food, supplies, and money, without caring if someone was white or black, gay or straight, rich or poor.)
Daniel was killed not by a small cabal of Christians. It was killed by its own over reaching attempt to force its political and social ideas on others. (A conservative Christian program that did the same would also have failed because in general people ARE tolerant.)
So quit whining that this show imploded. Its own weight of self importance would have caused it to happen anyways.
Iowa Jim
I think the show was doomed from day one. It was in a crappy timeslot, affliates were refusing to air it, advertisers were pulling out and the fascists were calling for a boycott. On top of that, the plots were over top and it wasn’t as good as many critics said it was. Lots of factors contributed to its demise.
I just worry that now that the fascists are claiming victory, what other shows are in their sights.
Gibson’s movie did gangbuster business because they were _very_ smart and “evangelized” (ho ho) the religious community into getting parishioners interested in the flick
It was also a baeutiful piece of film, IMHO. Of course, your mileage may vary.
The more I think about it, the more this seems like,once again, people are letting Wildmon and ilk jerk their chains. So he takes credit for a bad show bombing. Hoop dee whoop. If he takes credit for the sun rising I’m not going to close my eyes and pretend it’s night just to show him he’s wrong. It’s like the folks who didn’t want to see Narnia because they were afraid that Pat Robertson would be happy. Jeeze. (On the right side of the equation, anyone who avoids Brokeback Mountain JUST because they are afraid that it will make liberals happy if the movie does well…same thing, you’re letting others make your decisions for you. Grow a spine.).
“Hollywood has such a horrendous track record as far as treating Christianity with any respect, I don’t blame people for assuming this show wouldn’t be any different.”
Examples? Not that I’d call a made-for-TV movie Hollywood, so let’s stick with just entertainment. I can think of plenty that deal with Christians, Christian themes, etc., and deal very respectfully with them. The Aformentioned 7th Heavan, Touched by and Angel are prime examples of well received, respected, and respectful shows with heavy Christian themes. Dogma portrayed the Catholic administration not so well, but a for the actual FAITH, it did what I thought was a really good job of being accurate.
I agree that there’s a perception that Entertainment doesn’t do a good job, on the whole, or portraying Christians. But show me one religious/cultural/age/regional/sex group that the Entertainment industry does do a good job, overall, of capturing the complexities and subtleties of. This whole so-called “war on Christians” is a farce. Hollywood isn’t out to “get” Christians any more than it is out to get anyone.
The only thing that explains such a knee-jerk reaction is intolerance. We’ve seen it before, with Last Temptation, Dogma, Harry Potter, anything that some Christian group thinks might be a threat to…well, I don’t know how they see it as a threat. Maybe they think that if non-Saved see movies that put Christianity in a negative light, their “mission” of Witnessing might be harder.
Which, to my understanding, if you’re a true Christian, you would welcome. Walking in Christ’s footsteps isn’t supposed to be easy. It’s supposed to be hard, a struggle, a test, every day. Every single one of Jesus’ disciples was martyred.
Jesus did preach acceptance, tolerance, and forgiveness, among many other things. But people get so caught up on their own personal salvation that they forget that Jesus died for the forgiveness of ALL sins. Jesus isn’t my personal savior, no more than he is anyone else’s. If you believe, you believe that he’s the savior of all mankind.
Christians did not kill this program, bad ratings did.
I thought PAD’s point was two-fold:
A) some Christians are claiming that they killed the show.
B) Christians didn’t bother to give a show before they condemned it.
America is more loving because of religion, not less loving.
Oh humping Satan on a vibrator.
Now America is better than Europe because religion? Apparently you’ve forgotten about those loving crackpots like Pat Robertson, Falwell, and Phelps. They’re quite the loving bunch, aren’t they; we’ll just conveniently forget that some churches are the first to condemn as well, and all is swell.
You make it sound like religious people are the only people to respond to disasters and stuff, too.
Well, I suppose they would be, because our government acts like a 60 year old man with an erectile dysfunction.
It isn’t the Christians who are acting like the extremists are speaking for them.
And that isn’t what I said either. I said the extremists claim that they are speaking for all Christians, not that all Christians believe that the extremists speak for them.
Yes but you also said that “It’s beyond time for someone who isn’t a complete fascist to reclaim Christianity in this country.” which, to me made it sound as though you thought that the extremists really WERE the spokemen for religious thought. My point was that Christians pay less attention to these jokers than the non-religious do. To many people with no real religious feelings the Pope and Pat Robertson may seem to have equal weight. That’s not the case for the vast majority of Christians.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Some people take this to mean that they can hide their sins by throwings lots and lots of stones.