What a terrific actor has been taken from us, and what a horrific instance of life imitating art. I’ve been a Spencer fan ever since the double whammy of his brilliant work on “L.A. Law” and his incredibly noirish turn in “Presumed Innocent” that made you wish he’d been around to film black and white gangster films in the 40s and 50s.
When Leo McGarry had a heart attack out of nowhere last season, I was one of the many fans decrying the ER-esque turn of events. Yet now no one can ever watch those episodes in repeats without getting an eerie, chill feeling, watching an actor doing a dramatized version of his own future passing. Sheesh.
Since I don’t want to muddle up comments on the passing of a person with the more fannish concerns about the future of his television series, I’m jumping to the extended entry for comments on “West Wing.”
Remember a few weeks ago when I talked about “West Wing” being Josh’s story. Well, consider: In the midst of a heated presidential campaign, Josh’s father didn’t live to see the outcome. And now history repeats itself as Josh’s father figure dies without living to see the results of Josh’s efforts. Certainly the writers will make note of that, and I don’t envy Ashley Whitford having to act the scenes. The poor cast members are going to be like walking wounds in dealing with this.
As for the writers, jeez. Whatever they had planned for the election storyline, it couldn’t possibly match the emotional drama of what reality has handed them. Bottom line, who becomes the new VP candidate? There’s an abundance of already existing Democratic characters to draft into it, or they could come up with someone new. Possibilities off the top of my head for existing characters:
Bob Russell. Yes, Gary Cole is off doing another series, but so is Stockard Channing and she’s managed to work in some guest shots. I can see Bartlet sitting down with him and saying that the Democratic party needs him to step up and put his ego aside.
Sam Seaborne. Wouldn’t THAT be interesting. Rob Lowe’s career hasn’t exactly thrived since his departure. Be a hëll of a comeback.
Congresswoman Andrea Wyatt. Yes, she had two children out of wedlock with Toby, but on the other hand, she survived the Gaza bombing.
Any other thoughts?
PAD
• 
It was a sad surprise for us too. Leo was always my favorite character on the series.
Gretchen and I thought of the three possibilities that you named, but I’m thinking the most likely one is the Pennsylvania governor who was also a candidate for the Presidential nomination. After all, Santos has to carry PA to win and if Santos didn’t win, his VP running mate would be the heir apparent for the next election…
Depending on how far ahead they’ve filmed, I can see them having Santos winning the election and then finding out that Leo just passed of a heart attack prior to coming out to celebrate. Film trickery can probably pull it off.
Otherwise, I have no idea who they’ll pull out of the hat, so to speak. There’s no one character on West Wing that has that charisma to pull off something somewhat believably. Odds are, they’ll need to make someone up or pick one of the people that tried to have Josh replaced in the episode that appeared on 12/11.
Actually, they established Leo as still alive post-election in the first episode.
I don’t even watch WW and this one hit me as a big deal. Poor guy — and his poor family, to boot.
TWL
Actually, they established Leo as still alive post-election in the first episode.
Actually, they didn’t. Despite what’s been reported elsewhere, Leo did NOT appear in that future scene of the dedication of the Bartlet library. Here’s a quote from one of PAD’s old columns that mentions that fact and what he then thought it might mean:
Note, for instance, Leo’s absence. Since I think we can safely assume Leo wouldn’t miss such an event, and dismissing the notion that Leo and Bartlet had some sort of major falling out, that leaves us with three options: 1) Leo’s dead; 2) Leo’s the VP and therefore can’t be with the president, Santos; 3) Leo IS the president (wouldn’t that be a scenario? Santos wins and, the day he’s sworn in, is assassinated?)
Since Leo didn’t appear in that scene, the producers of the West Wing will not be forced to pretend that Leo is still alive and will be able to write his death into the storyline of what is probably the WW’s final season. Personally, I feel that it would be more respectful to Mr. Spencer’s memory to acknowledge his death by allowing his character die as well than it would be to pretend that Leo was still alive but was always just “off camera.”
Don Campbell
Btw, Bradley Whitford, not Ashley.
Given that it’s almost certain this is the show’s last season, and given how out of whack it’d make the storyline to replace the VP candidate with less than a month before the election, I’d go with writing around any appearance of Leo for the rest of the campaign or using old footage/vocals briefly.
Then, the next to last show has him die 24 hours before the Inaugeration, right at the end of the show. The final episode has the characters’ reactions to his death, interposed with the end of the Bartlett administration which only happened because Leo pushed Jed to run.
In an article that I read they had already filmed the next 5 episodes and Leo was supposed to be in 3 of them. How close to the election that takes them is one question. I think they have to write his death into the series sooner than later.
He was great in LA Law and in The West Wing. I haven’t seen Presumed Innocent yet.
Neil
I’m wondering how this will affect Josh, since Leo was the only one standing up for him. Even Santos was questioning if he should replace Josh.
John Spencer made The West Wing worth watching. He was my favorite actor in the series and he will most certainly be missed.
Mr Spencer was one of those consummate character actors who made you believe that he was actually every character he played. A talent that, IMHO, far overshadows the acting skills of leading men.
As I posted in an earlier thread, I was deeply saddened to learn of John Spencer’s death.
I remember watching him on “L.A. Law,” and asking, “Who’s that guy playing Tommy Mullaney? He’s VERY good.”
Years later, he completely melted into the character of Leo McGarry. Amazingly talented, funny and warm and grandfatherly, while also stern and gruff.
I really hope the writers write this into the story, as a tribute to the man and to the character. I’d like to see an homage to that great scene in the episode “Noel” between Leo and Josh, with the parable about the man who’s fallen down a hole. “Long as I got a job, you got a job, you got me?”
As for who might become the VP candidate on the ticket, I agree that Sam Seaborn would be a nice surprise. I don’t think Josh wants to step into that role, nor is he experienced enough. I would have suggested John Amos as Adm. Percy Fitzwallace, but they killed his character off. I don’t think Hoynes would want to be second fiddle again. Congresswoman Wyatt is a nice choice. “Bingo” Bob Russell…definite possibility, but he’s been written as unlikable, so it’s hard to see him stepping into those enormous shoes.
Hmm. I can’t imagine anyone else in the regular cast who would fit into that role.
Sam Seaborn would be a good choice.
I will miss John Spencer, though…it makes my viewing of Season 2 on DVD at the moment bittersweet. 🙁
Congresswoman Wyatt is a nice choice
I agree, but I doubt it. IIRC, there was an outcry when she became pregnant, and that was on a local scale (mostly within her Congressional district).
But on a national scale, a woman, especially one with children born out of wedlock, can kiss most, if not all, of the Heartland & Bible Belt Electorial votes goodbye.
Sam Seaborn – Unlikely. A first term freshman congressman being propelled into the VP spot?
Actually, Sam would be a GREAT choice. Rob Lowe obviously could use a new role; the poor guy is staring in crappy holiday TV movies now. A return to the West Wing could actually help revive some of the ratings, and perhaps save the show for another season. (Not sure why everyone keeps thinking this is the last year. Why?)
I remember watching him on “L.A. Law,” and asking, “Who’s that guy playing Tommy Mullaney? He’s VERY good.”
I had the same reaction. I started watching L.A. Law in college because friends and roommates were fans, and while I didn’t really get a lot of the appeal of some of the characters, John Spencer I liked immediately.
As for the West Wing storyline, it’s interesting to speculate on Sam Seaborn becoming the VP candidate, but that’s a development slightly too fan-service-sacrificing-verisimilitude for my taste. Then again, it would add a bit of interest to the season-opening flash-forward where Will Bailey is, IIRC, referred to as a Congressman; Will and Sam were from the same district after all… (Though, of course, Will might not have been elected from the same district in which he dragooned Sam to run.)
In terms of real-world analogs, there was the case of Thomas Eagleton, who had received the Vice Presidential nomination in 1972 under George McGovern. After it was revealed that Eagleton had been hospitalized for mental illness, Eagleton resigned and Sargent Shriver became the VP candidate. I believe that the Democratic Party was asked to ratify McGovern’s selection of Shriver as the new VP candidate.
So, given how divisive the Democratic Party primary was in the WW-verse, who would the Party endorse as Santos’ new running mate? If we assume that it couldn’t be anyone but folks who were factors in the primary, that leaves Hoynes, Russell, and Baker. And of those, I like the idea of Baker best.
But if you want a longshot name, what about Senator Howard Stackhouse? In the last election, he was a third-party candidate who almost got into the debates, so he’s not a complete unknown in the West Wing-verse’s national awareness. In his appearances, he’s been shown to be a man of character, which is never bad. And even if he hasn’t appeared recently, I think he’d been name-checked, so he’s probably still around…
I was extremely shocked when I heard the news. He was the only reason I could handle Santos winning. Now I hope Alan Alda takes it! They should start a new season, new party, new people and end up with, a new show!
I nominate John Goodman.
How about Geena Davis?
Upon further reflection–Leo dies just after the election. Santos nominates Alan Alda as his VP.
I like Alda as an actor much better than Smits anyway. It would be nice to have him as a regular.
I’ve never watched The West Wing, but I was a fan of John Spencer from his L.A. Law days, as his character was always one you rooted for, whether he was selling a kidney behind Leland’s back, or hiding in his ex’s closet so he could shoot the murderer client that he himself got acquited when he showed up in his ex’s bedroom, an ex that he was still in love with.
I also liked him in Forget Paris, and after seeing him play such nice guy characters, it was jarring seeing him as a dirty murdering cop in Copland, but not as jarring as hearing of his death.
He’ll be missed.
Since, from what I’ve heard, they’ve cancelled West Wing… it’s the last season, most likely they have the majority of at least the next three or four episodes shot already.
Personally, yes, Sam Seabourne would be great. But I also think the guy played by Al Bundy would work well also…
Travis
John Spencer’s death was certainly a shock, and my condolences to his family.
I wonder, though, what would be the best way for the _West Wing_ cast and crew to honor his memory- to make Leo’s death a part of the storyline (which they’d probably have to do, given that his character was running for vice president), or to go the Jack Soo route?
For those unfamiliar with the name, the late Jack Soo was an actor on _Barney Miller._ When he died, an entire episode was dedicated to his memory, with the other actors- not the characters- reminiscing about him. There was, however, no in-story explanation for why the _character_ he played was no longer there.
My feeling is they should probably do both. Obviously, they have to explain Leo’s absence, and the easiest way to do that, is to have the character die, as the actor did. However, it would also be a nice touch if the cast and crew of _West Wing_ set aside an episode to talk about John Spencer, the actor.
Rick
I agree with you, Rick. I, too, want to see the cast of West Wing actually talk about John, not just as part of a storyline. I think they should have that first, and the following week, the story of Leo dying.
Also, and i have said this all along, I don’t think they ever were going to have Santos win. I think they were going the Alda route the entire time, and the show would continue under his reign.
I would like to see Sam Seabourn back as the VP candidate. I read in TV Guide a couple of weeks ago that he was approached about doing guest star role in the last episode. It’s not such a leap to make it sooner.
As for Congresswoman Wyatt: not only does she have the out-of-wedlock children problem, the father of those children is Toby Ziegle who of course was fired for cause.
Mike Farrell
The loss of John Spencer is indeed immense.
As for the new VP, what about that woman politician, played by Mel Harris, that Toby was meeting with early on in the election? She could be developed as a pretty strong character.
I’m thinking about the double irony here … last year, Jerry Orbach left LAW & ORDER (NBC Wedensday 10pm) after 12 seasons … and died in December 2004.
Now, Leo McGarry dies in December 2005, star of THE WEST WING, NBC Wednesday 9pm.
By this time next year, whoever is occupying NBC’s wednesday 8pm timelsot had better start looking over their shoulder.
R.I.P. John Spencer. As someone who disliked Rob Lowe, I was torn between watching and ignoring The West Wing in its first year. Martin Sheen and John Spencer were the reasons I ultimately decided to watch. Both performers kept me watching. As someone who now supports the dvd’s, I just know that I’ll start crying once the sixth season is released. I sincerely hope that a commentary track will be included with the episode within which Leo has his heart attack. I further hope that a nice tribute film to Mr. Spencer is included with the extras. I too remember him from Presumed Innocent, LA Law and Forget Paris. Like Dennis Franz before him, he had the look of a character actor who might have had to work extraordinarily hard at building his career in an industry that historically promotes beauty over substance. Once again, R.I.P. John Spencer.
As for having an episode of the cast, as themselves, coming on camera to talk about John, I suspect that this will instead be on the DVDs for the season!
I’m thinking about the double irony here … last year, Jerry Orbach left LAW & ORDER (NBC Wedensday 10pm) after 12 seasons … and died in December 2004.
Now, Leo McGarry dies in December 2005, star of THE WEST WING, NBC Wednesday 9pm.
By this time next year, whoever is occupying NBC’s wednesday 8pm timelsot had better start looking over their shoulder.
*************************************************
To Rich Harvey: West Wing is on Sundays this year, not Wednesdays.
By this time next year, whoever is occupying NBC’s wednesday 8pm timelsot had better start looking over their shoulder.
On the bright side, by December 2007 we’ll be rid of Wheel of Fortune.
(I kid the Pat Sajak! I kid him!)
RIP John Spencer.
Who’ll replace him? Please not Russell, boring character. Sam? Would be great to see him again, but not as VP. Josh? No, not the way they keep the VP seperate from the Prez, he needs to be in a spot close to the Oval Office.
Andrea? I can’t see it, but a woman would be great…CJ? Oh yeah, I like that idea. But She’d have to step down as Chief of Staff to Bartlett…deh, so be it.
Can’t be CJ. She was in scene in the first episode this season and was obviously no longer still in politics. Besides, she has a skeleton in her closet too.
I’d go for Congresswoman Wyatt. Yes, she had kids out of wedlock–but it was with her ex-husband, and she was the one who refused to re-marry him. Where’s the scandal in that?
Wyatt? No chance, not with what’s happening to Toby.
Seaborn? Nope. VPOTUS is not an entry level position.
VP Russell? Possible, but unlikely. If he couldn’t get the nomination in the first place, he’ll be hard pressed to be an asset to the ticket now.
My bet? General Thomas Bailey, former NATO Supreme Commander of Allied Forces.
Has a vice president ever died while running in real life? Leo was the best character on West Wing. John Spencer was an excellent actor and i regret not following up on what happened after he confessed to leaking information. I’ve missed a few episodes. RIP John Spencer.
my dad says he will remember where he was forever when he heard that John Spencer had died. He was a good actor but i wont remember. Not like 9/11 or Columbine. :'( RIP
9/11-Hospitalized with a horrible cold (the nurse was bawling).
Columbine- Daycare playing outside then one of the “big kids” wanted to stay inside and watch the news coverage. We all did to and it was horrible.
this is awful, just awful. i love leo, and i loved spencer on LA Law.
crap.
that being said, PAD is right, the show has always been about josh (well, at first it was a sports night kind of interplay between the two, with sam in) but that’s exactly why josh CAN’T be VP. and sam is a pretty obvious choise, but everything i’ve heard coalesces around the big kazac/cino war, and that smitts is only to be around for a season or two- i alwyas thought that at some point, once the war took hold, santos would step down, and we’d see the ultimate reversal o’ roles- leo as POTUS, with josh as his CoS, guiding him through a war (after, of course, a season or three of “so that’s where the button is” kind of inside the WH happenings- and wouldn’t that have been just great?) so now, i guess, either they bring in sam as a sorta here VP character, or they screw up and make josh VP (seriously, who wants to watch four seasons of him scheduling meetings?) or they kill the show (sigh), or they bring in someone who can fill leo’s boots regarding military/foreign policy, someone universally known in WW world as the ultimate ‘Jack Ryan’ or something, someone who served with leo in ‘nam, but went with ops instead of politics, someone that leo directs them towards in his will… someone who could lead the show the way martin sheen has, the way smitts won’t (esp. if he’s leaving).
if they play it right, an story arc where the one guy everyone on both aisles has been begging to play politics but won’t (think powell meets clancy’s ryan meets, oh, i don’t know, ollie north) and he just won’t do, and won’t do it, until at last, in the rain, in the cemetary, in the most wrenching moment of all television, josh hands him the letter leo wrote about the good of the country and honor and duty and putting things to rights…
y’know, it just might work.
what’s michael douglas doing lately?
People need to be realistic. The writers do not have to choose a VP from the existing major cast memebrs. Infact, it would make no sense and would make them lose all credibility.
Let’s look at just a few of the bizarre names mentioned: There is no way Josh could be VP. A) he has NO elected political experience (find a recent elected VP where this is so) B)He doesn’t have the political clout to carry any state (Leo, if you rememeber, was a former cabinet member).
Rob Lowe supposedly wants too much money – and he wanted the show to be all about him — that doesn’t work with an ensemble cast. Also he is, at most, a two-term house member (from Vinnick-land no less). Not possible. Don’t forget that they will have to try to follow through on the flash forward from the first show. That elimnates CJ, Kate, Toby, Will, and, based on demeanor, Josh.
Look for either a very peripheral character, or maybe Nancy McNally — for the military expertise.
If I can address the sidebar issue of the media for a moment, the steamroller seems to be that all the papers and news outlets that cover this story, that of both the death of John Spencer and the dilema the writers and producers, the facts seem to be inconsequential. The Hollywood Reporter did a follow-up story today on the big problem the writing team has ahead of them since Leo was in the flash forward scene. It makes me pause and wonder how bad the state of journalism is in every other area of the news when these glaring errors are missed by professionals of the entertainment industry are reporting on their specialty.
Ðámņ, dámņ and dámņ. John Spencer’s Leo was the heart and soul of this show. Let us pause to remember a great actor with a terrific body of work including the West Wing for seven seasons. Talent like Spencer’s is rare and will be missed. He had a smile and a charm that could light a thousand rooms.
I agree either Baker or McNally seem to have the experience needed to support President Santos in his first term. I would appreciate a guest-appearance by Lowe sometime before the end of the series, but I cannot see his character as the next VP.
How Santos deals with this crisis will show how he finally comes into his own as President–his true character’s measure.
On the bright side, I think the loss of Leo will finally (finally!) push Josh and Donna closer together…!
didnt sam seaborn lose his congressional race?
afterwards wasnt he promoted to counselor to the president when toby wanted will as his deputy?
del, we never saw the outcome of Sam’s race. He had to resign as Deputy Communications Director in order to run. When Toby wanted Will to take the Deputy spot, the question of what to do if Sam lost his race came up, and it was decided they’d give him a job in the Counsel’s office. But…we never learned the outcome of the race.
it was like a punch in the stomach. Seriously. As other have noted above, Leo’s one of the reason’s I watch this show. I even toy with the notion of pulling a “Darrin” and replacing him, just because losing Leo would be such a blow (John Mahoney could pull it off). Thinking about it, it would be hard for the show to credibly replace him — a ticket with a VP whose health is in question and then, suddenly, just before the election, he drops dead? I don’t care who they get to replace him, that ticket’s done (imagine how differently things might have gone if Cheney or Lieberman had kicked it during the 200 campaign). I know, I know, it seems disrespectful to Jon Spencer and it is, a little. It’s probably pointless to speculate. I think the show’s over, anyway (I mean, they skipped the November sweeps, they’re skipping all or most of the February sweeps, the writing’s on the wall). Just bring back Sam as the VP candidate, let Vinick beat them, and allow the show to ride off into the sunset.
Hey, let’s not forget the man’s role as Captain Paulsen in Wing Commander IV. In fact, I think that’s the first time I saw him.
thats exactly my point if we didnt see the result of the race
why do we assume he won?
his loss was anticipated in the last episode we saw him in
nobody ever said in subsequent episodes that sam was a congressman
if so cite the episode and the quote
The assumption is that if he lost, he would have come back to the White House. As it was never addressed, it could go either way. However, based on the level of Sam’s commitment to the president, it doesn’t seem as if he would have taken a corporate job in lieu of working for him. So, the win just fits better.
The assumption is that if he lost, he would have come back to the White House. As it was never addressed, it could go either way. However, based on the level of Sam’s commitment to the president, it doesn’t seem as if he would have taken a corporate job in lieu of working for him. So, the win just fits better.
Plus, if the presumption is that if Sam didn’t win his election that he’d be given a job in the counsel’s office, it’d make one wonder why he didn’t appear–or at least be name-checked–during the “Who’s The Leak!” storyarc involving Oliver Platt’s counsel character.
Realistically, though, Sam’s probably off in what WW fans call “Mandy-ville,” that limbo to which characters with indistinct whereabouts are consigned.
Lets not forget that they already have some episodes taped and we don’t know how far they have come. If they projected Santos to win, the only way they could get another season would be because of Johns popularity. If they want to keep the show going, they HAVE to elect Vinik and start with a fresh cast.
That is not a bad thing! They have exhausted this cast, especially when they won’t have John. I like the show and its topics and no, Commander in Chief does not take its place because it has a different scope.
So, lets keep things in perspective. All decisions will be based upon whether or not they intend to keep the show going and what has already been taped. I do see them killing the character but not by a heart attack, by assination.
Just my 2 cents……….
“I do see them killing the character but not by a heart attack, by assination.”
Was I dreaming or did I see that being played out in upcoming episode sneak peaks (but with one of the candidates)? I *think* I remember seeing that at least? Man, I feel old!
Then again I did miss an episode or two, perhaps it already happened????
To answer an earlier question: Taft’s VP candidate, when he was running for re-election in 1912, died a few days before the election. Taft finished 3rd (behind Wilson and Teddy R.) but he wouldn’t have won that race anyway.
A later episode, with Leo responding “you’re trying to kill me!” when he was asked to take over as campaign manager, seemed eerie in retrospect.
I’m getting i the thread a bit late in the game, but Vice -President James Sherman died three weeks before the election (where Taft was defeated).
Also, several people have suggested Sam Seaborn replace Leo as the nominee and the claim has been made that he has no experience as he’s a freshman congressman. Well, Kennedy had only one congressional term and one term in the Senate under his belt when he became President, so Sam isn’t too big a stretch.
Leo (John Spencer) is just irreplaceable. There’s certain shows that don’t work without a character, who while isn’t central, just seems to act as the glue for the plots. The Grandfather of the Waltons, for instance, or Jock Ewing on Dallas.
While I’d love to see Seaborn back (Will Bailey never worked for me), I’d rather they use Spencer’s death to let Vinick win. Alan Alda as a liberal Republican President would be a hoot. Plus, you could re-cast the whole show and start over. Is John Goodman busy??
Toby is out, CJ has done about all she can do, Bartlett’s clock’s run, Charlie goes with Bartlett. It’s been a grand ride but it’s over. Santos as played by Jimmy Smitts is just not, well, “Presidential”. The only hope I held was that Leo and Josh sticking around would make it work. Now, that’s a lost option.
I need another 5 seasons of West Wing to make my world perfect, and a Vinick Administration might do the trick.
Kevin
Within the show’s continuity, how about William Devane’s Secretary of State as new VP candidate? He was supposed to be nominated to be VP when Hoynes resigned but he was blocked by the Republican Speaker because he would be too powerful as a leading Dem candidate.
Or, missing that, why not go all out and have Santos choose National Security Advisor Nancy McNally? What kind of turnout would the Dems get with a latino and black woman on their ticket?