So the Bush White House endeavors to send out a nice, simple, inclusive holiday card. No different than millions of Americans of all religions send out.
And what happens? The extreme religious right is offended. Hëll, let’s not even call them the extreme religious right, because that makes it sound like extremist Jews, Muslims, Shintoists, etc., are all on the same page. Let’s call it what it is: Extremist Christians.
Here’s the fascinating thing about Extremists: They’re all the same. The philosophy of Extremist Christians is fundamentally no different than, say, that of Extremist Muslims. They believe in the same things: Exclusionary thinking. Intolerance. Ignoring fundamental lessons of their own faith when it runs afoul of extremist thinking. Where is the philosophy of Christian charity and understanding? Where is the writings in the Koran specifically forbidding the killing of innocents? They don’t serve the Extremist viewpoint of exclusion and intolerance and thus are cast aside.
They only differ in degrees of their actions. Some chop off the heads of helpless victims. Others blow up abortion clinics.
And the most consistent link is that trying to accommodate them never, ever works. That’s what Bush is discovering now, having staked his political star to the whims of the Extremists. It’s insufficient for Extremists that eighty percent of this country celebrates Christmas. Instead the ONLY acceptable greeting at this time of year is “Merry Christmas” rather than something inclusive such as “Happy holidays.” It’s insufficient for Extremists that there is already an implicit lack of separation of church and state around the holidays (the government shuts down for Christmas. You see the government shutting down for Yom Kippur? For Ramadan?) They want an EXplicit lack of separation by having the official greeting card from the White House be in celebration of Christmas only.
It’s never enough for Extremists. Never enough. Because the only thing that will really satisfy them–whether they’re walking bombs or just bombasts–is if everyone thinks just like them, believes just like them, and wants the same things as them. Which is never, ever going to happen, which is why they will never, ever be satisfied. Bush has been trying to appease them and hopefully even he is now realizing that it’s hopeless.
One is left shaking one’s head at a people who are claiming their holiday, their very beliefs, are being threatened. No. When Romans were throwing them to the lions, THEN their beliefs were being threatened. Here, in this country, their core philosophies have complete dominance over just about every aspect of life in this country.
And it’s not enough.
When dealing with Extremists and terrorists…it never is.
PAD
• 
The same can be said for the extreme left, the left that thinks no war is ever justifiable and that anyone who dons a uniform, be it police or military, is a fascist. The Noam Chomskys of the world.
Extremism sucks on ALL sides, Peter. Even on your side.
Which is why I hate both extremes. Both parties, both false idealogies.
Pragmatism, look into it.
Well said, PAD.
ElCoyote, grind that axe some place else. I agree that psycho-extreme liberalism is bad, just as any other zealotous extremism. But, since PAD, and most liberals, do not hold those extereme views you attack in your post, you overwhelm your own valid point. PAD is not an extemist liberal.
“I am not going to let oppressive, totalitarian, anti-Christian forces in this country diminish and denigrate the holiday and the celebration. I am not going to let it happen. I’m gonna use all the power that I have on radio and television to bring horror into the world of people who are trying to do that.”
Any guesses to the source of that quote? Bill O’Reilly.
This thing with Bush isn’t the first shot fired this year. Fox “News” Channel has been ramping up the war machine for its new crusade of the month. Christmas is under attack. “They” are stopping “you” from having Christmas. “They” want to keep “you” from being able to celebrate a public holiday devoted to generosity, peace, and love.
The talk radio nitwits have picked it up and run with it as well. It’s strange to walk around in the real world and enjoy all the nice holiday things to be found this time of year (Christmas front and center in just about every place you go)and then to come into some conservative nitwit talk show and hear that the dark forces of the world have shut down Christmas and forced the U.S. of A. into removing all ideas of Christmas from public life as well.
I can’t figure out what’s wrong with “Happy Holidays” as a greating. Made a great Christmas song. Made quite a few great Christmas songs over the decades.
But, beyond the odd song, what gets me the most is that these monkies can’t grasp two tiny little nuggets of fact through all their fiction making. There is a reason to say happy holidays. See, there’s this thing that comes about a week after Christmas called…. what is that… oh, yeah… New Years. What’s New Years? Well, for this argument, it’s part of the holiday season. The same holiday season that starts after everybody is done burping from Thanksgiving I might add. It’s part of the time of year that I wish people to be happy in. It’s why I say happy holidays. There are two of them. And that’s staying in Christian belief only.
It’s also very stupid sounding to say “Merry Christmas” on Dec. 1st. Why? well, it’s not Christmas. Why not sound like a complete jáçkášš and wish people a happy New Year the day after Thanksgiving while you’re at it. You are in the holiday season however. Why not just say happy holidays until about a day out from Christmas? It’s always seemed to work quite well in the past.
But Bush is getting pounded for politics with this. See, Bush is getting nailed because he forgot to read the talking points memo. Christmas is the new culture war front. It’s the new straw dog to hold up and use as a weapon to hit anyone they don’t like with over the head until they submit. It’s the new thing to hold up and point to as a target of “those people” that want to destroy “your” way of life and undermine everything that’s good a true about “our” country. Bush can’t wish a happy holiday to people unless they worship his God and that holiday is called, by him and them, Christmas. Why, to do anything but that would be to destroy the very fabric of America.
PAD said
One is left shaking one’s head at a people who are claiming their holiday, their very beliefs, are being threatened. No. When Romans were throwing them to the lions, THEN their beliefs were being threatened. Here, in this country, their core philosophies have complete dominance over just about every aspect of life in this country.
And why were Christians being thrown to the lions in ROme?
Because a sizable segment of Christians of the day blatantly refused to honour Rome’s laws mandating religious tolerance, disrupted the observances of other religions, and vandalised other religions’ temples and other places of worship and smashed their idols and other paraphenalia. (“Iconoclasts”, they were called.)
In later years (a parodied in L. Sprague de Camp’s time travel novel, “Lest Darkness Fall”), when Rome was ruled by the Ostrogoths (a thoroughly civilised rule, as Theodoric, King of the Ostrogoths, had had a thorough education while growing up as a hostage at the Byzantine Court), similar laws requiring tolerance of others’ religious beliefs were decried by members of almost all Christian sects, because they forbade them going out and doing their most important duty to God — smashing all those other heretical sects.
Fanatical monotheists are a terrible thing to have around, and ought, of course, be suppressed by the Government.
And when the time for such suppression comes, it just so happens, you know, that i know the One True Faith, and if enough people will join me, we can mash all the False Faiths, suppress the Secular Humanists, sweep away everyone whose sexual preferences don’t match mine, and return this country to True Christian Principles…
Amen
And to add to Luke K’s comment: I don’t believe I’ve *ever* seen PAD defend the views and opinions of the extreme left, even as I’ve seen him *vigourously* defend the ability and right of not just the extreme left, but the extreme right and everyone in between, to voice their opinions.
Well said, Peter. It’s fortunate that the people beating this “War on Christmas” drum are such an extreme minority, but it’s equally unfortunate that they have such a deceivingly disproportionately loud voice with which to scream about this imaginary injustice.
Wildcat
The most fun little facts from this whole “War on Christmas” have come from MSNBC’s “Countdown with Keith Olberman”. On the same episode where Olberman showed President Bush’s Holiday Card he also showed the webpage for Fox News’ Gift Shop. Every item with a Christmas theme was titled Holiday (Holiday Ornaments, Holiday Cards, etc.). A few hours later all the names where changed to Christmas, but the html address still has the word holiday in it.
Add to that stuff that many a mega-church has decided to cancel Christmas services this year and I’m starting to wonder if the Extemist Christians are really trying to manufacture a since of doom in their members. Not just saying that the sky is falling, but actually trying to bring it down. Keep the base nice and paniced.
I’ve already run into one guy on another message board claiming that his town switching to a “Winter Festival” this year was the work of Atheist ACLU Feminists trying to make everyone a Pagan. How these three groups got so much pull in a small rural southern town is a question he has yet to answer. Also curious why Atheists would try to make people Pagans. Go figure…
1Well, what do you expect from FNC? I mean they’s love to tout to us that we’re winning the war, the economy is growing, the debt is paid off, the borders are more secure, there’s no danger of another terroist attack, that there’s plenty of money to rebuild the Gulf Coast. Ect.
But they can’t say those things, because their not true! I mean, yeah they can say those things, but then someone calls them on it.
So they need a new enemy. Enter the one or two werido’s who think Christmas is bad and suddednly we have a threat greater than 9-11.
Jeez.
Next thing you know we’ll be hearing about a secret Al-Quada/ Grinch plot to poison Christmas trees or something. God help us if we should have to occupy Hooville so we can fight the terriosts there!
This post, and others like it, is the reason I come to this site on a regular basis. I am not really into PAD’s comic books (although I love his ST, Arthur and Apropos writings) but he often sums up my feelings on a current topic so much better than I ever could that it is a pleasure to read what’s here.
Well said, thanks and Happy Holidays!
I’m a bit curious to know what some of the people around here who routinely play the “Christians are under constant attack” card think of this, personally.
As for this whole tempest in a teapot — I’m pretty much with PAD on this one, except that I’m a little more willing to show public glee about Shrubbo reaping the whirlwind on this one. He wants to hitch his wagon to a bunch of scorpions, that is (unfortunately) his call — but when the scorpions turn around and bite him, he’ll have to excuse me if I don’t leap in to save him.
Oh — and happy holidays, all. 🙂
TWL
“God help us if we should have to occupy Hooville to fight the terrorists there”
If we don’t fight them in over there in Hooville,
we’ll have to fight them at The Island of Misfit Toys or Candy Cane Lane…
Okay, since Mr. David is primarily a writer of dramatic fiction, he should be familiar with the axiom of dramatic tension. Namely, you can’t have a hero without a villain. And you can’t have a powerful, impressive hero unless your villain is equally impressive and powerful.
The Christian Extremists (although Christian Terrorists might be equally applicable) need an enemy so they can feel self-righteous. That’s the important feeling about the movement. Mayberry, North Carolina had no contentious scenes in church …except when Aunt Bee’s huckleberry pie was stolen. They’d already cleared the area of any other faiths.
So, these guys need an enemy, and one of the most important tasks of their movement’s leaders is to find such enemies. (Maybe “leaders” is inappropriate…they just push their flock along, so maybe they’re “shepherds,” although I wouldn’t say good ones.)
This year it’s “destroying Christmas.” Next year it might be “wearing the Satanic Star of David.” Whatever it is, it’ll be a simple symbol they can use to move their herd animals into stampede position.
P.S. One of the most complete versions of “The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe” seems to be put out by one of these cross-burning groups, Focus on the Family. Does anybody know of an audio book version that is unabridged, and not done by somoene with a holy executioner’s axe to grind?
Sometimes I wonder if the Extreme Christian Right do these things not from extreme faith in their religion, but from doubt. I think that maybe they sometimes question their chosen faith, but instead of searching their souls and maybe looking for something new to believe in (because, God forbid, they go back on a decision) they decide they want the whole world to switch over to help validate their choice of faith.
Just a strange little thought.
In fact, thinking about the matter, I don’t want the audio version of “Lion, Etcetera” at all. And I don’t think I’ll be going to “Narnia” after all.
It isn’t that C.S. Lewis told a Christian parable as a children’s adventure story. That’s no problem. I have no problem with the Bible or Christian metaphors, which appear in all kinds of fiction. The problem is that the right-wing Christians have latched onto this book/movie and claimed it as their own, and are using it as a propaganda tool for their peculiarly un-Christ-like Christianity.
Just watch. The attendance figures at this film will be used by Pat Robertson and his homies on Monday evening’s torchlight prayer rally to claim that America supports their cause. That being the case, I’d rather not stand next to the jackboots, thank you very much.
And as you all know, Disney paid a right-wing organizing group to propagandize “Narnia” as an exclusively Christian experience to the nation’s churches. These groups will claim that because I attended the film in its premiere week, I support blowing up abortion clinics and exiling all Jews to Knuckledrag, Oklahoma.
Lewis’s book is still out there. I can read it for free at the library. I can buy a used copy from amazon.com that won’t be counted as a new purchase in their rankings. I can wait until this whole mess is over and be part of the “after-market” audience that no one will care about. But doing anything with this stuff for the next few weeks would make me another nail in the coffin of religious tolerance.
Bravo.
On a completely unrelated topic, I’ve finally gotten around to reading Madrox, and I am loving it. Can’t wait for X-Factor (although I keep wanting to call it “Weapon X” for some strange reason… you’d think I’d remember the title, considering I grew up with the original X-Factor).
“Sometimes I wonder if the Extreme Christian Right do these things not from extreme faith in their religion, but from doubt. I think that maybe they sometimes question their chosen faith, but instead of searching their souls and maybe looking for something new to believe in (because, God forbid, they go back on a decision) they decide they want the whole world to switch over to help validate their choice of faith.”
I think you’re placing a bit too much credence on the fact that most of them even think.
I grew up in a church, my father’s a minister of one, and I’m sure even he’d tell you that most of the problems within churches are that people don’t want to think, they don’t want to change, they just want to be in their happy little zone, stand up when they’re told, say Amen when they’re told and sit back down again when they’re told.
Actually, it’s not very much different from most of the people I see on my commute into work. Sheep-like behaviour is very easy to fall into.
The people who are doing the thinking are the leaders. They’re the ones doing the rabble rousing – and all the thinking. With them it’s not about fear over losing their faith, it’s about keeping control over the power that they wield. If they can keep the sheep under control with fear, then they hold onto their power base. If they just let the sheep get contented then their power base consists of a bunch of grass-grazers, and that’s no power at all.
“Well, i wasn’t expecting the spanish inquisition…”
One thing that really cracks me up is when Chritians talk about the true meaning of christmasbeing lost e.g Jesus and all that.
yet funny enough christmas as a christian festival has only been celebrated since the late 18th century round about 150 years or so.
Before that however the winter festival on December the 22nd the shortest day had been celebrated since pretty much the dawm pratically everywhere in the world to one degree or another at one time or another.
Ironicially a very religious British government once banned christmas on the grounds that it was and i quote “unchristian” eg a pagan festival celebraring the fact that the light was returning to the world.
having spent centuries uscussfully trying to ban the mid winter festival christians finally gave up and decided to to celebrate the birth of Jesus at the same time.
which leads to the strange miss-mash that is celebrated today a mixture of paganism christmas light, father christmas and christian icons.
appologies if i’ve been a bit general but i’m remembering a documentary about the evolution of christmas, which i saw several years ago.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/12/07.html#a6225
Check this link for a great video between O’rielly and the Daily Show. Seems FNC will do anything to promote thier fake war on christmas
Hope i’m not double posting here..First time.. check this link for a very funny retort by the Daily Show to a fake news segment by Bill on FNC…More great War on Christmas fun.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/12/07.html#a6225
While I’m not denying that overzealous extremists in the Christian Right may go overboard, let’s not brush with too broad a stroke. Otherwise, what’s to stop people from making John Walker Lindh the posterboy of the “extreme anti-American-involvement-in-the-war left”? After all, the vast majority of Christians and those on the right embrace those who blow up abortion clinics (which, honestly, has happened HOW often? And should we compare it to Left-Wing Animal Rights Extremists actions?) as much as those on the left would embrace the American Taliban, but hey, it makes good copy.
As for the disgusting Extreme Left, I point you all to this:
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004021.htm
I don’t for a second believe that’s anywhere near the mainstream, but it should sure make you think before you complain about the Extreme Christian Right, who complain that the word Christmas was left off a card, as opposed to the Extreme Left, who do what’s mentioned in that article.
Incidentally, RIP Mr. Richard Pryor…just heard the news.
What is interesting is that we honestly have no way to trace who sent that card do we? We know the extreme right has no problem making up stories that don’t exist. Not saying it isn’t true but I like a little thing called evidence. I know full well there are crazy left wing people who would send a letter like that unfortantly, but the stories we are talking about can be fully traced to people and thier actions, not an anonymous card taht could have been sent by a crazy left winger or a crazy right winger who wanted to make the left look bad (see the previous O’reilly video for evidence of that). Regardless of which, Peter was bìŧçhìņg about extremists period. He did not mention nor imply that the left does not have its fair share of nuts…extremism in any manner is bad and serves no one’s best interests.
“We know the extreme right has no problem making up stories that don’t exist.”
Only as much as the mainstream left does, I suppose.
But no, you make a good point, and I think we can all now conclude that all abortion clinic bombings are actually the result of a grand conspiracy of neo-libs, intent on framing innocent Christians for their acts.
I think that Occam’s Razor applies here.
Yes, I know that PAD mentioned all extremists; he did, however, only bring up what he perceives as Christian Right Extremism, so I was helping to identify alternates. Although the more I think about it, I would be surprised to find out that 100% of the people who are upset at the perceived “war on Christmas” are all right-wingers. Hmm…anyone know of any polls?
Which was my point…to focus on the stories that can at least be attempted to be verified. If a left winger wrote the story they should have thier name printed in every newspaper so they can get all the hate mail they deserve. As for firebombing abortion clinics, you are talking about a much more serious crime than faking a news story and they have caught (again that whole evidence thing) crazy right wingers who do such things (as they did with the crazy left winger John Walker). And the only reason he mentioned right wingers was because they were the one’s bashing Bush for doing such a thing. The only people I know who think there is a war on christmas are right wingers (not even far right but def strong conservatives). I would like to see a poll too. I like what MSNBC said about it. The so called war was first declared by Henry Ford in 1920, so this has been the worst fought war since 85 years have passed and they haven’t even made a real dent in any way, shape, or form. Again… ALL extremists are very bad and make all the rest of us (the much more silent 95% of the Cons, Mods, and Libs) look bad. Extremism in any form by any group should not be tolerated, period.
The people I feel sorry for are the Christians whose faith is apparently so weak that Christmas can be taken from them. Because they’re the only ones who can really take Christmas from themselves.
I think this whole thing (plus the flap over Wal-Mart and other stores selling “holiday trees” – wouldn’t the most truthful name be “druidic trees?”) is what’s going to be revved up for next year’s elections. You may remember, in spite of the pundits who use last year’s elections of proof of support for Bush’s war policies, that the reason most people gave for voting for him was that they felt they shared his values, especially preventing dirty, pinko, commie gays to marry each other. (And I hope that memory warms them as they watch gas prices soar and more Americans die in Iraq.) So I think we’re going to hear more about “the war on Christmas” as November 7 (I think that’s the date) approaches. It’s a good way to distract people from more important matters.
The problem is that the right-wing Christians have latched onto this book/movie and claimed it as their own, and are using it as a propaganda tool for their peculiarly un-Christ-like Christianity.
I was just arguing this point on the IMDb forums (why? I don’t know – those forums are utterly useless).
Some moron was claiming that the film, and all of the books, are merely Christian propoganda.
I disagreed, and stated that the only propoganda going on is from the likes of Disney and the Christians themselves who are trying to get other Christians to, as you say, “claim it for themselves”.
Kind of like how they claimed many aspects of how we now celebrate Christmas from other cultures. (Last I checked, Jesus and Kris Kringle weren’t college dormroom buddies.)
So, I think these Christian extremists need to spend some time studying history before they open their mouths again. Although, with anything they don’t like, they just ignore it.
Anyways, the whole thing is a shame, because I don’t see the movie as anything more than the allegory that it’s meant to be. And even then, it’s not all about Christianity – there are many elements in the stories, particularly Greek mythology in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.
Only as much as the mainstream left does, I suppose.
The difference? There are no Rush Limbaughs or Pat Robertsons on the left. (And if you mention Michael Moore, I’ll just laugh, as the man doesn’t even compare.)
John:
For that matter, if a right-winger wrote that letter, I’d certainly like to see him or her pilloried too.
Craig:
Michael Moore doesn’t compare? OK, he’s worse, fine, I concede…but to that list, I’ll add Dan Rather, Al Franken, and raise you Randi Rhodes, who’s more vitriolic than all the others combined!
As an aside, maybe I’m just locked on the word propoganda here, but you’re not seriously saying that the Narnia books aren’t Christian works, are you (I may have misunderstood your point, though)? While they aren’t propoganda (in the terms that I think both you or I would agree), they are undeniably Christian…
Here’s the fascinating thing about Extremists: They’re all the same. The philosophy of Extremist Christians is fundamentally no different than, say, that of Extremist Muslims. They believe in the same things: Exclusionary thinking. Intolerance.
They only differ in degrees of their actions. Some chop off the heads of helpless victims. Others blow up abortion clinics.
Do you really know anyone who is a Christian who is an extremist like you describe? I don’t mean on TV, I mean personally? I am sure you have met a handful, but is it really more than that? There is a pitiful lack of perspective in all of this. Out of the literally hundreds of thousands of so called “extremist Christians,” you have maybe one abortion clinic bombing a year?
Yes, you would find me “intolerant” in my beliefs because I do believe there are some things morally wrong (such as abortion). I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I think evolution is a fraud. So what? You do not find me — or 99.9% of those you would lump into the “extremist Christian” category — forcing anyone to convert? Trying to reason and prove our point? Yes. So what. You do the same about the war in Iraq. I don’t consider you intolerant because you think Bush is an idiot and the war unjustified and you try to convince others of the same.
If you cannot see the difference between legitimate persuasion an coercion, then you have lost touch with reality. I know that is not the case. So go ahead and say some of the “Christian extremists” are wrong to insist the card says “Merry Christmas” instead of “Happy Holidays.” Just spare me the fear mongering that one of those “Christian extremists” will be engaging in acts of terror over the issue.
Iowa Jim
Here, in this country, their core philosophies have complete dominance over just about every aspect of life in this country.
You are confusing some traditions that still linger (such as government closing down for Christmas but not Yom Kipur) with actual philosophy. A very strong case can be made that Christian philosophy has not had complete dominance for at least the last 50 years. I am not claiming it has disappeared, but it is not dominant.
The most crucial example is evolution. This is more than a scientific theory. It is the foundation of a worldview that is radically different than Christian philosophy. This theory has held dominance in more than just biology classes. It influences social policies, educational philosophy, judicial practices, and even moral questions such as gay marriage and abortion. Yes, there are some do would say they believe God created the earth, but when you look at the other areas, you would find their philosophy is built on a foundation of evolutionary thought. Most on this thought would consider evolution to be a proven fact, and anyone who disagrees is as ignorant as those who still claim the earth is flat.
So is it “intollerant” by definition if I say evolution is a fraud? Am I “intollerant” simply because I want to argue that gay marriage harms society — particularly when I argue not based on the Bible saying it is wrong but based on history and observation of human nature?
Just wondering.
Iowa Jim
Anyways, the whole thing is a shame, because I don’t see the movie as anything more than the allegory that it’s meant to be. And even then, it’s not all about Christianity – there are many elements in the stories, particularly Greek mythology in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.
Technically, C.S. Lewis said his books were not allegorical. To use comic book lingo, they are more along the lines of an “elseworld” story. He called it “supposal” as in “suppose there was another world and suppose God wanted to redeem that world, what would happen?” So there are elements that are not Christian because Lewis was not limited to simply writing an allegory that had to be “theologically correct.”
Iowa Jim
RE: Is there a war on Christmas?
I have not read every post, but the ones I scanned missed what is the main point for most Christians who are upset about “Happy Holidays.” There is an atmosphere being created that forbids “Merry Christmas” being said. I don’t think an employee should be forced to say “Merry Christmas” to anyone. But I do think it is wrong to say they cannot say it. The reality is the overwhelming majority in this country celebrate Christmas, either as a religious observance or as a cultural observance. If someone does not celebrate it, there is no reason for them to be offended if someone tells them “Merry Christmas.” I would not be offended if someone said something to me about a Jewish or Muslim holiday.
Have many Christians over reacted to all of this? Perhaps. But only by pointing out the obvious. We are celebrating Christmas, not some other holiday.
PAD’s point merits consideration: Why does the government shut down for a religious holiday? Because the majority observe it. It is not an attempt to force religion on anyone. It started out, and continues to be, simply a recognition that Christmas is a cultural phenomenon. I would argue it has largely moved away from its religious roots, but that is my opinion.
Iowa Jim
“So is it “intollerant” by definition if I say evolution is a fraud?”
No. Just ignorant of science…and spelling.
“Am I “intollerant” simply because I want to argue that gay marriage harms society — particularly when I argue not based on the Bible saying it is wrong but based on history and observation of human nature?
Yes. And also ignorant.
PAD
“particularly when I argue not based on the Bible saying it is wrong but based on history and observation of human nature?”
Total BS, Iowa Jim. Actually, I just did a paper on this for a college class. The only time a society starts to crumble is when it outlaws homosexual relations (which is what happened to Rome.) I also took a look at primitive culture. I figured that a lot of people like to claim that tolerance of homosexuality only occurs in decadent societies. Ergo, in a society that has no room at all for decadence, homosexuality should be out the window. Obviously when you are a member of a Native American tribe in the 1300’s, there is no room whatsoever to tolerate anything that weakens your society (which is EXACTLY what the Right claims will happen) SUrprisingly enough, in those cultures, homosexuality was not only common, it was revered. Especially in the Americas where there people called “two-spirts” who were men who acted like women. It was seen as good luck to have one in the tribe, and they were PREFERRED as wives to women because they were stronger and could do more work. In South America, they were said to be beloved of the Gods, and there are legends of them actually saving villages by driving off rampaging Spaniards.
Further, in many sub-saharan African tribes, homosexual relationships are not only common, but are EXPECTED of young men as a coming of age ritual. The same holds true for many South pacific tribes.
This is all not to mention that homosexuality was very common in the early CHRISTIAN church, with several saints being homosexual, including St. Aldred (who wrote poetry to his deceased lover.) and one of the St. Bernards. (there are about 10, and I forget which one it was.)
So, unfortunately Jim, your argument that quote “gay marriage harms society” would seem to be totally disproved by the actual facts of many, many, MANY societies throughout history, including Christian ones.
I think evolution is a fraud.
“Fraud” is an extremely strong word, Jim. It implies that the scientists in question (including my wife) are knowingly perpetrating a falsehood with the intent of hoodwinking the general public.
I don’t think you have any evidence to that effect, Jim — but I think you’re nicely providing evidence that not only don’t you understand how science works, you don’t care to. You’re also maligning a huge number of scientists and teachers, some of whom are themselves very Christian and incredibly moral people. (Yes, I’m specifying both; despite what you undoubtedly would like to think, the two are not synonymous.)
In other words, you’re acting like a jerk. I’ll leave it up to you whether that qualifies as you being intolerant or not, but you’re not exactly doing the public face of Christianity any favors with this response.
TWL
First, for anyone who has trouble viewing the Daily Show video, here’s a transcript:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200512080005
————–
Also, a short history of Christmas in the U.S.:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/12/07/opinion/edcohen.php
Have many Christians over reacted to all of this? Perhaps. But only by pointing out the obvious. We are celebrating Christmas, not some other holiday.
However, just about every other religion sets aside time during this point in the year for some kind of observance. To the Christians: Christmas, to the Jews: Hanukkah, to the Pagans: Yule. There’s also the African Kwanzaa festival.
I have no problem with someone wishing me a Merry Christmas, or a Joyous Yule or a Happy Holiday. It’s a blessing from one person to another, and I will always respect the intent of that individual, which is to share some form of human compassion and love.
Too many people are making WAY too big a deal about this.
PAD what a great post. It makes me laugh when I see things like this “war on Christmas”, not only because it gets so much play in the media, but because if there is a war, it is perpetrated by monotheists, not the other way around. It is a shame that so few people know how much of the entire christian religion has been absorbed from pagan religions to make christianity more palatable to the people they were forcing into it. They did the same thing with the Greeks and Romans, co-opting certain aspects so that the people they were beating into their beliefs would have something of their previous religion to hang onto. I laugh every time I see the big wind up for Christmas and hear all the cries of how their holiday is being watered down. How watered would it be if they stripped out all they stole from the pagans? As a Pagan myself, I have no issue with Christmas, Holidays, or whatever else folks say in greeting to each other. To me, it seems to be much about nothing, but then christians have never been much for living and letting live.
Michael Moore doesn’t compare? OK, he’s worse, fine, I concede…but to that list, I’ll add Dan Rather, Al Franken, and raise you Randi Rhodes, who’s more vitriolic than all the others combined!
Rather is a left-wing extremist? Ok, time for your annual head exam.
Franken just wants some attention, but at least he’s not saying all conservatives must die (like, oh, Ann Coulter). Nor is Moore.
I’ve never even heard of Rhodes, so I can’t say he’s in the same league as a Coulter, Limbaugh, or O’Reilly.
But maybe that’s just because the media is liberal… oh, wait, if it were, I should’ve heard of the guy by now. 😉
As an aside, maybe I’m just locked on the word propoganda here,
Yes, you are, considering I did say that the stories are an allegory of many things, not just Christianity.
Now, Jim may be right, and, much like Tolkien with Lord of the Rings, Narnia isn’t meant to be allegory* and I just haven’t read about it. But it is easy to view it that way, due to elements such as Aslan’s resurrection and so forth.
In the end, I do find it all amusing that there’s this big thing over Aslan when Gandalf really fills the same role (fatherly, leader, higher power, death & resurrection) while Tolkien was Christian as well. 🙂
* Although Tolkien was, from what I’ve read, far more forthright in saying his stories weren’t, specifically with regards to WWII. Heck, even Tolkien’s introduction to the trilogy says “don’t read this as allegory”. I have not read Lewis’ other writings or anything where he would’ve said that, no, Narnia isn’t an allegory.
Oh, yes, and the even greater hypocracy by some Christians that nobody has mentioned yet, but I have been thinking about:
Why is it acceptable for copies of Chronicles of Narnia to be read by children, but not something like Harry Potter?
Is it because the only witch in the story is a bad one and she’s being defeated? And that you can’t use magic because magic is supposedly pagan, etc?
Quick, somebody take that magic healing potion away from Lucy!
Or is part of the reason they’re acceptable because they are assumed to be Christian allegory?
In all my time in fundimentalist churches who were active in the pro-life movement in Pensacola, FL, I sortof/kindof knew of one man who later was convicted murdering an abortion doctor. I knew hundreds of people who worked at save a life clinics, donated, helped the parents and children of the unborn… And the murderer? I was told to stay away from them.
People don’t want to think for theirselves normally, they want to use broad strokes to paint the world. Conservative Christians want the world to end because they have painted it in black. Christian Left sees the harm and still sees hope.
I see time and time again how people can paint Christians, many thousands who don’t deserve it as evil, vile, racist people just by looking above.
Tim,
Do I think those who accept evolution are knowingly perpetuating a fraud? No. But evolution is based on assumptions that cannot be proved. The biggest assumption is that God does not play an active role in the universe. That is different than the assumption that the universe has laws and operates in an orderly manner. For hundreds of years there have been scientists who believe in a God who created the universe and who can even do miracles today, but who also believed the same God was orderly and gave us a world we could understand and interact with. It is not necessary to take God out of the equation to be a good scientist. For that matter, it is not necessary to believe in God to be a good scientist.
So do I think you are trying to commit fraud? No. Absolutely not. But I have looked at the evidence and have found it lacking. It is not out of blind ignorance that I reject evolution. I just have a different set of pressupositions.
Iowa Jim
Let’s put Christ back in Christmas
Right back where he belongs
Let’s put Christ back in Christmas
And back in your favorite Christmas songs…
Frosty the Snowman, was Jesus Christ’s best friend
He stood there melting by the cross, until the very end…
Oh, you better not shout, you better not cry
Better not pout , I’m tellin’ you why,
Jesus Christ is coming, again….
Jesus the long-haired Savior,
Had a very shiny glow,
And if you ever saw it,
You would call it a halo
Oh, let’s put Christ back in Christmas
Right back where he belongs
Yes, let’s put Christ back in Christmas
And back in your favorite Christmas songs.
Jingle bells
Go to hëll
If you do not pray …..
(Thanks to the genius that is Pat Godwin)
Boy, I don’t know what’s more annoying–this whole “War on Christmas” deal or the idea that someone would boycott Narnia because they don’t want Pat Robertson to gloat. Dude, you’ve just given him way to much power over you.
There are also those who, when given the common courtesy of a “Happy holidays” “Merry Christmas” “have a nice day” or whatever, use it as an opportunity to tell you about their personal philosophy of life. Here’s a tip–get over yourself. It’s not about you. I wish you a Merry Christmas as a kindness that we extend to strangers, a way of just making life a bit more friendly and courteous. All things being equal, I hope you have a nice day but if, in fact, you are crushed by a paint truck later that day it won’t really have any major impact on my life so just take the kindness, smile, say “Happy Hannukah” “A fruitful Winter Solstice” “Happy Kwanzaa, cracker” or whatever is your personal pleasantry and let’s move on, ok?
As for the folks on this board, who I would miss, I hope you all have a Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, etc. Watch out for paint trucks.
One solution to this whole what greeting to use option is to require everyone who goes shopping between Thanksgiving & New Year’s to wear a badge, like a nametag, announcing what holiday they’re shopping for. Then when store employees see the badge they can use the approiate greeting.
PAD,
Nice. Just call me ignorant. Guess it is impossible for someone to have actually studied these issues and come to a different conclusion. (Oh, and pick on my lack of checking my spelling before I hit “send.”)
Your post obviously pushed a button with me. I am rather tired of Christians being seen as the neo-nazis out to eradicate those who disagree. I happen to think that those who are mad at Bush about his card are over reacting. He is president of a country that does include many religions. It is fine with me if he chooses to say “Merry Christmas,” and it is also fine if he prefers “Happy Holidays.” That said, the reaction by Christians should in no way lead to a diatribe about the dangers of Christian extremists, painting us as just slightly better than terrorists. I could understand your thinking it was a joke, but a threat? Get real. Better yet, be a little more tolerant of those who disagree with you. (Sorry, couldn’t resist.)
Iowa Jim
The biggest assumption is that God does not play an active role in the universe.
I would like to hear what it is that makes you believe that evolution demands, as a basic presupposition, that God does not play an active role in the universe. It doesn’t, which is why religious people like the Pope have no trouble accepting evolution for the reality that it is.
True, if you do not accept evolution there is nothing much left to replace it other than the supernatural. But you could just as easily use that argument to argue that the universe revolves around the sun. If that were true it would be such an impossible thing that only the supernatural could explain it.
But here’s the thing–just because it’s true that if a certain belief were true it would prove the existence of God, it does NOT follow that not accepting that belief DISPROVES God, or even implies doubt. If someone wants to think that God pulls the sun across the sky on a golden chain it doesn’t make him one single bit more devout than someone who recognizes that this is not how the solar system works.
Why is it acceptable for copies of Chronicles of Narnia to be read by children, but not something like Harry Potter?
Apparently it isn’t. From Cathy Seipp comes word of this site: http://www.balaams-ášš.com/journal/homemake/narnia.htm
According to these folks Narnia is part of Lewis’ evil plan to indoctrinate kids into Satanism. Or something, I just skimmed. Life is short.
At any rate, the movie pulled in 23 million on Friday, more than the next 10 or so films combined. Not too shabby.
“There are also those who, when given the common courtesy of a “Happy holidays” “Merry Christmas” “have a nice day” or whatever, use it as an opportunity to tell you about their personal philosophy of life.”
For what it’s worth, if someone says either of those to me, I just reply, “You, too.” I don’t think someone who’s just trying to say something nice to you deserves a lecture in response.
PAD,
“Nice. Just call me ignorant.”
Already did. Got it covered, thanks.
“Guess it is impossible for someone to have actually studied these issues and come to a different conclusion.”
No. Just impossible for you to have studied them with an open mind. Nothing you have ever said, in any posting, indicates that you have an open mind about anything. Yours is a mind slammed shut to anything that doesn’t fall within your narrow-minded, intolerant fundamentalist religious doctrine.
“(Oh, and pick on my lack of checking my spelling before I hit “send.”)”
That’s not lack of checking spelling. Spelling “intolerant” incorrectly twice in the same post is, as noted, ignorance of spelling.
PAD
For what it’s worth, if someone says either of those to me, I just reply, “You, too.” I don’t think someone who’s just trying to say something nice to you deserves a lecture in response.
It’s worth plenty. It’s the exact correct response. But then you have achieved enough in your life that you are pretty secure in who you are and not likely to feel that a stranger is attacking you by their expressions of kindness. I think that most people who take offense where none is intended probably have some serious unhappiness in their lives. When you’re happy you tend to assume the best of people.
“Happy Holidays” is used because it covers Christmas, Boxing Day, New Year’s (Years’?) Day, Hanukkah, Ramadan, Yule, Solstice, Enlightenment Day, Kwanzaa, and any other holidays you might want to toss into the mix. Insisting that only “Merry Christmas” is allowed is prejudicial in the extreme.
If The Chronicles of Narnia is Christian propaganda because of the resurrection of Aslan, so too should be The Matrix, due to the resurrection of Neo (and his subsequent defeat of the evil Agent Smith). Oddly enough, I have yet to hear any of the fundamentalist Christian churches in these parts offer up the Wachowski brothers as examples of Christian thought..
Jim, I take offense at the idea that because I believe some parts of the Universe are explicable through natural processes (such as the process of evolution), that I must then deny that God could possibly have any had in said process. Which solution would seem the more elegant, nay, Divine, to you – patching everything together as one goes, like an old-school computer hack, or constructing a universe whose basic rules lead, with hypnotic inevitability, to the conditions one sought in the Beginning?
Personally, I’ve always found that when read as allegory, the first chapter of Genesis matches nicely with modern cosmological thought…