Recent discussions I’ve been having on the internet have really brought into stark relief for me how my participation can be a perpetual lose/lose proposition. Why? Because literally no matter what I do–indeed, what any creator can do–it can and often will be construed in the most negative light possible. It doesn’t mean I’m going to stop doing it, or that I’m upset about it. It’s kind of fascinating, actually, in the way that any no-win scenario can be.
What truly underscored it for me was a comment made by one reviewer over on the silverbullet website. I’m not going to respond to the reviews themselves because, hey, opinions are opinions. At least they read the book. But he led off comments about ASM by saying:
“I’ve seen a surprising amount of defensiveness on the part of Peter David regarding this storyline. He’s popped up in numerous interviews and on more than one comics message board to counter those who accuse Marvel of scuppering the first three issues of his Spider-Man run with editorial constraints…”
This comment provides a distorted picture, as if I’m Paul Revere on my cyberhorse, galloping around willy nilly to sound alarms over impending disaster. Except it’s not true.
Interviewers have been coming to me, at the rate of one a week for the last three months, asking for comments and responses to questions. It’s not like I’m seeking them out. And all I’m doing is replying, to the best of my ability, to the things they want to know. As for message boards, I’ve been participating regularly in exactly three for years: Comicon, Newsarama, and comicboards.com (with a VERY occasional swing by Joe Q’s board.) And I’ve always participated in various discussions, both about my work and other topics. The single change in my habits is that I’ve switched from the Hulk board to the Spidey board on the comicboards.com site since I’m writing the latter and not the former. Otherwise I’m doing nothing different than I always have. It’s just that “The Other” is garnering far more discussion than anything else I’m involved in, so the perception is that I’m being more aggressive in discussing the work. Except I’m not.
Should I stonewall the interviewers? When fans pose questions to me on boards, should I ignore them? After all, in responding to them, I get pegged as “popping up” places and being “defensive.” So certainly going in the opposite direction is the answer, right?
Except if I don’t reply to questions that fans pose, then they repost them. And if I still don’t answer, or if I don’t reply fast enough, they complain that I’m ignoring them. One fan who posted a negative review of my work, to which I did not respond, then started a separate thread complaining that I didn’t care about fan opinions because I did NOT provide rebuttal. And if I said “no” to all the interviews, then you just know that THAT would be remarked upon as well. “When approached for responses, Peter David had no comment” or “Peter David refused to discuss the subject.”
So let’s say that I restricted my internet activities to this weblog alone. Well, that’s what John Byrne does, right? And how many times have we seen fans make snarky comments about how Byrne won’t wander outside of a cyber realm where he totally controls the rules. Even I used to think it was a tad cowardly. More and more, I’m starting to see it now as simple common sense, because I do go other places and witness the result.
For that matter, if I DO get into an extended discussion about my work and keep at it and keep at it, then what do I inevitably hear? “Boy, you’re sure being defensive.” “Boy, you sure can’t take criticism.” “Boy, you’d think Peter David would have something better to do than keep arguing with someone who doesn’t like his work.” On the other hand, if I realized that the discussion is pointless and I say I’m done with it, what’s the response? “A-ha! You’re running away!” When I formally withdrew from commenting on rec.arts.comics, most posters snippily said, “Bull. He’ll be back. They always come back.” That was years ago. I wonder if they still claim I’ll be back.
Now, of course, I could just ditch the internet entirely. What happens then? Fan discussion of how certain creators never participate in the internet. How they’re relics or antiques or hostile to fans or don’t give a dámņ about the fans or are missing out on the vast opportunities for marketing their work.
And there’s no disputing that the internet CAN be a powerful marketing force. Orders for “Fallen Angel #1” are higher than the numbers it was drawing for the last several months of the DC run, and I attribute that in part to its internet presence.
But on-line participation, like anything else, is a double-edged sword.
So let’s summarize. If I stick only to this board, I’m a control freak. If I participate on other boards or respond to interviewers, I’m popping up and being defensive. If I discuss my work at length, I can’t take criticism. If I cease discussing it, I’m a coward. If I don’t discuss it at all, I don’t care about the fans. If I bail on the internet altogether, then I’m distant. James Kirk, who thwarted the Kobayashi Maru, would take one look at the internet and say, “You’re on your own.”
All I’m saying is, keep that in mind next time you’re viewing how various creators interact or don’t interact with the net, and realize the formidable odds that we can face.
PAD
• 
Well, I appreciate your taking the time to post on the Newsarama boards. Your posts are always interesting and I enjoy reading your discussions. I still think we should have found out what the disease was by the end of your arc on the Other, and I disagree with your reasoning, but that may be due to the fact I’m not picking up the next 9 issues since I can’t stand Hudlin and JMS.
I hope you continue posting over at those boards.
Greg
Keep on doing what you’re doing.
You’ll definitely want to pick up part 10 (issue 4 of FNSM). It’s really nifty.
PAD
Well,
life’s lessons produce some interesting sweet and sour food so to type… I don’t expect 9 out of 10 of my posts to get a response for many of the reasons you mentioned. Plus, its not like you owe me anything and the politics of this biz tends to kill whatever truth I was expecting. After all, you all have jobs to cultivate. I continue to hope, against reality, that us posters arent lumped together and you pros arent too thin skinned to know to pick your battles wisely…
The Internet has also given birth to a new breed of cowards. People think they can say things without consequences.
“The Internet has also given birth to a new breed of cowards. People think they can say things without consequences.”
Which is an illusion, more or less. It’s just that the consequences are not as personal as they would otherwise be. But the things people post often stick with them…once a troll, always a troll, so to speak. People get put on ignore lists, virtual an actual, or can get banned, shunned, or disemvoweled. Sure, that’s a far cry from risking inciting someone to physical violence, which some internet discussions could surely lead to. But the feeling of invulnerability the internet provides people is just that…a feeling, and it’s an illusion. With the ability to track ISPs, it’s even difficult for someone to change tags in an effort to avoid retribution.
The unfortunate thing that I see is that the lack of respect exhibited by some on the internet seems to be bleeding over into other forms of communication.
PAD,
We love having you over at the Joe Q boards. You’re right, there are always going to be the haters who will give you a dámņëd if you do/dámņëd if you don’t scenario, but you can’t let that govern your interactions. You’re one of the most fan-responsive creators around, and I can’t see that as anything but a good thing.
“It doesn’t mean I’m going to stop doing it…”
[*sigh* of relief]
“James Kirk, who thwarted the Kobayashi Maru, would take one look at the internet and say, ‘You’re on your own.'”
But I’ll bet Cmdr Stone would figure something out. If he cared to. 😉
“The unfortunate thing that I see is that the lack of respect exhibited by some on the internet seems to be bleeding over into other forms of communication.”
More people don’t have Internet than do. On the other paw, media in general – responsible for spreading such annoyances as the cheeky ‘no problem’ instead of the more polite/respectful ‘you’re welcome’ – is everywhere as, increasingly, are cell phones and the bad habits they’ve helped engender.
I think you’re always going to get negative criticism no matter what you do. The internet just gives everyone a billboard. Some people will always see that as a license to just make snarky comments anonymously.
I guess the only solution is just ignore the trolls and focus on the people who try to give you intelligent criticism and discussion.
Having worked in the higher ed field and directly with students for 10 years now, I’ve made observations like those stated above. Bobb, were it as simple as perceived lack of consequences online, I’d be relieved. The trend that I’ve noticed is that much of their social skills, or lack thereof, are learned through online interactions and are carried over to daily interactions with peers, faculty, employers, etc. I have witnessed too many college-aged people responding with genuine shock and outrage at a negaitive consequence to their inappropriate or irresponsible behavior to believe that it is simply a fluck. I don’t believe that there is active thinking involved here, but underlying expectations that one can voice whatever one chooses to without a consideration of consequences. They honestly don’t understand the concept because they have rarely been exposed to lasting ones.
Fred
I should clarify that I am speaking specifically about adolescents and early twentysomethings, not the older group online who make outrageous comments online because they feel they have no real influence in their daily lives. Repressed anger is a sad thing.
“You’ll definitely want to pick up part 10 (issue 4 of FNSM). It’s really nifty.
PAD”
Okay, I’ll pick up FNS #4. Thanks for the heads up.
The few times we’ve corresponded, PAD, you’ve always been considerate enough to answer. That’s something I appreciate, given that you have many projects to write and deadlines to meet. Its too bad that too many people do not take this factor into account.
PAD, I think the work you do is great, some better than others, but mostly quality stuff.
I’m betting you don’t get to be a good writer or a successful writer without being able to take criticism. Isn’t that what writers have to do to get to be successful? There aren’t very many writers that don’t get to publish themselves. You’ve had to work through editors and editors are never critical are they? 😉
Which is an illusion, more or less.
Not entirely.
If you’re on a forum that is not moderated, or not moderated fairly (ie, a forum where trolling is allowed by supposedly respectable long-time members) there is little recourse save to quit the forum.
Keep doing what you are doing Peter…the Internet is always going to have CyberThugs that have something negative to say.
Regards:
Warren S. Jones III
I personally feel the internet is a good way for fans to talk to the creator of their comics when otherwise would never be able to. Take John Ostranders site which is set up slightly different to yours where more often that not you get a personal reply-which I think is fantastic. Where else would I be able to ask why he does a certain thing a certain way and know I’ll get an answer?
Ian
Fred, I think you’re spot on. My dad has commented on how his generation, and those that closely followed him, raised a bunch of spoiled brats. I don’t think he’s talking about me, or maybe I hope he’s not, but in general, parents of late have worked so hard to insulate, protect, and cater to their children, that we have a generation that is largely composed of people that have: never really had to work for or earn anything of value; never faced true consequences; largely been free of reprimand or discipline. The extreme cases are when parents actively work to deflect blame and responsiblity onto others, rather than forcing their children to learn the hard lessons their actions can bring about.
Bobb, add to that the fact that many parents have become so uncomfortable with the idea of their children being angry with them and I agree with you 100%.
Fred
Fred, I think you’re spot on. My dad has commented on how his generation, and those that closely followed him, raised a bunch of spoiled brats. I don’t think he’s talking about me, or maybe I hope he’s not, but in general, parents of late have worked so hard to insulate, protect, and cater to their children, that we have a generation that is largely composed of people that have: never really had to work for or earn anything of value; never faced true consequences; largely been free of reprimand or discipline.
Think you can spot this pretty easily; often, when an obnoxious person gets called on it, they’ll whine about censorship and freedom of speech.
Sometimes the fans, and even the creators, all take this biz too seriously.
It almost always makes a writer look weak when they speak out to clarify points of a story. If the printed story itself wasn’t clear or specific or didn’t convey the message the writer is speaking on message boards to inform about, then said writer didn’t do a good job in the first place.
I’m not saying that’s exactly what PAD’s been saying, but I have definitely noticed his comments falling into a similar category.
One not-so-small correction. John Byrne doesn’t restrict himself to his own board. In his recent public spat with Wikipedia, he was generally disruptive, wiping out the page he claimed contained errors without identifying the mistakes. Some of us don’t think it was a coincidence that Byrne starting complaining about the page shortly after it was expanded (in accordance with Wikipedia policy calling for presenting all sides of contested questions) to include responses from guys Byrne complained about and even a few of Byrne’s admissions that some of his unflattering public comments about other figures in the industry weren’t very accurate.
Peter, I think you’re reading selectively.
I’m a tech support rep for an ISP, and I frequently find myself thinking people are stupid because of he kinds of calls I get. But the reality is, I’m only getting calls from people who are anable to work out these relatively simple problems for themselves, because the others are taking care of their problems themselves.
So you only hear the complaints of people who are unsatisfied with their interactions with you, simply because those who are fine with you aren’t out there bìŧçhìņg.
hdefined :
>It almost always makes a writer look weak when they speak out to clarify points of a story. If the printed story itself wasn’t clear or specific or didn’t convey the message the writer is speaking on message boards to inform about, then said writer didn’t do a good job in the first place.
You’ve fallen into the trap of overgeneralization. If a story point is missed due to a child being below the target audience, there was intentional ambiguity that was missed, the artist failed to clearly depict it, a group of individuals have fallen into a mob mentality and no longer think for themselves or simply enjoy pìššìņg, or a person is a moron…. does that mean that the writer “didn’t do a good job”?
*By the way, I’ve seen plenty of examples of all of the above on message boards. One needn’t look far online to find it.*
Fred
PAD,
As a regular Newsamrama poster I have to say that I believe you have the respect of most of the members there. Of course a writer will always have his critics but you always do a fine job answering them.
I too go to comicboards.com and I’ve always been very happy to see you post in the Captain Marvel and Hulk boards. It made me as a reader feel that you as the writer actually gave a crap about the character you were writing and that character’s fans.
Thank you for being an active poster on the web and I know many fans really do appreciate the your interviews and posts.
Hi, PAD.
I have found that there is really only one way to handle those that mischaracterize ones actions: Screw ’em.
What I mean by that is that once a point has been reached where history has shown that a person will take me out of context even after I’ve explained myself I just choose to invest my time elsewhere (though I still remain cordial).
I know it is not that simple in your profession, which sucks, but a modification of that tactic may be at least a little helpfull.
Re Fred and Bobb’s discussion about parents and the general lack of a sense of consequense:
Parents also have to be carefull about punishing their kids. At some point a good old-fashioned ‘spankin’ might be warranted, but that is now widely regarded as abuse no matter the circumstances. Please note I’m not a particular fan of such action except as a VERY last resort and the logic behind it had best be sound.
The public has gotten to be quite a bit to handle. That’s why I can’t watch much reality TV. People have become so self-involved that it has crossed the border into The Land of Ridiculous. When the smallest thing goes wrong many people behave as though the ground is crumbling beneath their feet.
And I think I know why.
TV comercials (just one example). Every advertisement implies that the product is better than it is. Then when the prodect doesn’t perform to expectations the customer is mollified and coddled and even given free stuff. So now people complain just for the freebies and get defensive when called on it.
I believe this inflated expectation has crossed over into other aspects of life thus creating a Me Me Me mentality in the general population.
Then someone like myself will come along with a needle to burst that bubble and then the drama starts.
Yeah, ok, it’s just one theory. But I think it has at least some validity.
Many regards,
Mitch
Mitch:
>Re Fred and Bobb’s discussion about parents and the general lack of a sense of consequense:
>Parents also have to be carefull about punishing their kids. At some point a good old-fashioned ‘spankin’ might be warranted, but that is now widely regarded as abuse no matter the circumstances. Please note I’m not a particular fan of such action except as a VERY last resort and the logic behind it had best be sound.
I understand your point, but refuse to believe that there is not an incredibly large middle ground between spankings and advocating/reinforcing inapproriate behavior. Parents who continually take the side of their children without gathering information regarding an evey or exploring the possibility of their child’s behavior being in the wrong are doing a disservice to their children. That isn’t my concern. My concern is that they are doing a disservice to society, by sending the product of their irresponsibility and selfishness out into the world.
Fred
*This may sound harsher and more blunt than I would otherwise intend it to. I’m having a challenging couple of weeks.*
Well, Peter… you’ve replied to some of my posts. We’ve had minor discussions once or twice. When you don’t reply to what I say I’m not thinking ‘Peter doesn’t care about the fans?’ I’m thinking: ‘Okay… right now there are nineteen posts up now that make a lot more sense than mine. My questions aren’t important. Or maybe I’ve hit a spoiler on the head and he doesn’t want anyone to know. It has happened twice. Or maybe he’s working. You know he doesn’t talk to the fans cause he gets paid for it. Maybe he’s doing something with his friends and family. Come to thing of it… I should call Joe and Liz. Play a little DCU RPG or maybe watch Meaning of Life for 15th time…” Then invariably wander off and do something and the Baltimore County PD go on high alert.
Just a not-so-small correction on the not-so-small correction about John Byrne. Byrne has said that he doesn’t participate comic book related boards other than his own. AFAIK, he’s never said that he doesn’t participate in a board on WWII vintage aircraft or any other hobby/interest he might have.
The entire Wikipedia mess was from him trying to correct the entry about him (something he might have more knowledge about than anybody else), but the “editors” felt the need to leave up lies, rumors and other crap.
The entire Wikipedia mess was from him trying to correct the entry about him (something he might have more knowledge about than anybody else), but the “editors” felt the need to leave up lies, rumors and other crap.
So… the debate here is whether John Byrne can be objective and truthful about John Byrne, or whether others can be objective and truthful, apparently.
How does one “literally” misconstrue something? (Sorry, just joshin’ ya; this “literally” business is one of my hot buttons, like “it’s” and “its”…)
Peter, its the old saying about not being able to please everyone. No matter what you do, someone somewhere is going to be displeased, and its usually those people who shout louder. I lurk on a million message boards, but very rarely post anything, just because a million people will then have an opinion not on what I said, but on me. And the first thing people will say to me is: oh you dont post very often, so what do you know. And people who post too often are usually just considered “griefing” other people. Its ridiculous.
Mike
No, no, no! You’re going about it all wrong, PAD! You’ve got to demand obedience from your fans, and never let them off that hook. Like the example you wrote about in your last post: show up to all your interviews dressed as Tim the Enchanter, and demand that all questioners open with some statement dripping in wordy flattery. If you make them work for their answers, they’ll stop seeing you as ‘defensive guy’. True, you might become known as ‘balls-out insano-man’, but hey, omelets and eggs, right?
Like the people before me were saying, people today are too spoiled… if you’re not giving them enough piss with their lemonade, they think you’re a lightweight and start taking potshots at you. Bottom line: you’re too nice to your fans. Maybe you should be meaner to them?
Okay, time for my medicine.
PAD, you should just require that any question directed to you begin with “Oh, Mighty Peter,” before you even consider answering.
Hey PAD,
Keep on truckin’ on the other sites. I enjoyed your comments about “the Other” on Newsarama. They actually got me to start checking back with your site—which I had gotten out of the habit of doing.
Chris
“Balls-Out Insano-Man,” now THAT is a truly intimidating Super Hero title!
You don’t have such a bad moniker there yourself, Chad. 😉
Calhoun would probably track down whoever was making comments about him, and beat the crap out of them, Jay and Silent Bob style.
Honestly PAD, I enjoy your work and I enjoy this board and I’m glad at your participation… but I can sympathize with statements from people that you seem defensive. You often DO seem defensive to me, and I have lost count of the number of critical comments about your work that you’ve replied to here with a tone that I thought was dismissive. Responses along the line of “that’s not what I was saying there” or ones that seemed to question the reader’s attentiveness.
Perhaps it’s just a limitation of the medium or a way some of us interpret your statements, but I think you come across that way on a comparitively regular basis.
PAD,
You’re going to visit us occasionally on the Hulk Comicboards, right?
Come on! You can help us gang up on Daniel Way and this Planet Hulk thing…
>Come on! You can help us gang up on Daniel Way and this Planet Hulk thing…
That sounds like behavior Peter would be totally into… um.
This all rather reminds me of a “Meanwhile…” in Squeee! #4, by Jhonen Vasquez, about dealing with the unpleasantly obssessive sort of fans (“You didn’t sign all 50 copies of my book when your hands were cut! How dare you be human!”). All Peter needs now is a space station and a death ray…
“Hellfans! Unite and form – OBSSESSOR!!”
I only read and purchase your Arthur, Apropos and ST books so the entire comic book discussion is not relevant to me.
What I REALLY LIKE about THIS website is your occasional comments about politics/current events/etc in which you are usually able to distill what I am thinking into a few extremely well written paragraphs. Few other commentators write as well about such a wide variety of topics as you do and your posts are a pleasure to read.
I recall your “Dah-It’s the moon” piece. Just a wonderful piece of writing and it alone, as well as similar pieces, make it worthwhile dropping by the site.
Don’t let the jerks of the world drag you down. And BTW, quit writing all that comic book crap and write more ST, Arthur and Apropos. {:>)))
Thanks
There’s a phrase I’ve heard time and time again:
“You’re dámņëd if you do, and you’re dámņëd if you don’t.”
No matter what your point is, others will change it to fit their own needs. The press and politics have shown that.
The only thing you can do is keep your voice out there and be truthful to yourself. If others agree, they’ll stick with you. If they don’t, oh well.
You have been my favourite author for a very long time and not only because I enjoy New Frontier so much. This is one of my favourite places on the net. I often find your comments very interesting and thought provoking.
It is good to read that you intend to stay around although of course, being on the net, meaning in the middle of a large crowd, you also get exposed to people who rank from outright trolls and troublemakers to people who might mean well but lack skills in diplomacy and are just difficult to deal with.
I don`t post much but I like reading a good, intelligent discussion. I have found some here I found very interesting indeed. These are mainly political discussions and about comic books. This is, by the way, the only aspect that could be better: I would love it to also read more input about your books. I can`t remember that there has been a recent discussion dealing with books.
I definitely appreciate the time and effort you invest on the net and in dealing with fans.
Now now now…
In my humble opinion, there are two Kirks: original young Kirk and more mature Kirk. Kirk in Star Trek II was screaming at Khan on the communicator. Kirk in Star Trek VI didn’t say a single word to his Klingon adversary while torpedo after torpedo was fired from a cloaked ship at poor Enterprise.
WWKD?
“Classic” Kirk would probably write a letter to every dude that wronged him on-line in a savage attack that would make them print a retraction. “Aged” Kirk would let people spew their venom until they ran out of breath, THEN he would strike one, solid, efficient killer blow.
I don’t think Kirk would say, you’re on your own. I think “Classic” Kirk would say: “Let’s get those bášŧárdš!” whereas “Aged Kirk” would say nothing, wait for the storm to die down, then, with a clenched fist, say: “Fire!”
As far as I’m concerned, PAD, I’d follow you into the sun if you led the way. Keep on doing what you’re doing, cuz I’m lovin every minute of it.
it’s okay, unless you don’t respond to my posts. J/K !
I’ll be at both PhilCon in December in (surprise) Philly and Farpoint in February in Hunt Valley, MD. On each Saturday, I’ll wear my “LIBERALISM IS A MENTAL DISORDER” t-shirt. Step on up and say HI. I’ll leave my fretless bass at home.
I just want the return of Cowboy Pete.
Is that so wrong?
PAD, you would be more than welcome over at the Trek Lit board at Trek Today.
Many of the authors and editors post there regularly.