I was about to refer you folks to comicbookresources.com where there’s a nice article about “Fallen Angel,” complete with more artwork from issue #1. And there, on the same page, is a diatribe from Erik Larsen that angrily scolds creators who merely work on company-owned characters rather than on characters they themselves own–which, technically when you get down to it, includes Lee, Kirby, Ditko, Buscema, etc., since everything they created was company owned…just as any characters created for those same titles now are company owned. Yet in the world of Erik Larsen, creators who labor only in the company owned field are “pûššìëš,” resting on their “fat áššëš” and failing to “show (Erik) what (they’ve) got.”
Now I haven’t bothered with Larsen’s previous columns, despite his swipes at me (and his oh-so-clever use of “But I digress” for transitions.) But the combination of blind irony and blatant hypocrisy on this one, I just have to address…
Over ten years ago, when Image broke away to follow their own muse, their own dream, to no longer “hold back,” I wrote a column which had something of the same tone to it. Except my attitude was that I was unimpressed by the notion that–freed of the shackles of the main companies–all Image was going to do was produce more superheroes. Putting aside questions of ownership, I pondered whether the superhero-choked marketplace really needed MORE superheroes. My feeling was that, if I was going to do creator-owned stuff and had the wherewithal to do whatever I wanted, introducing yet more superheroes would be the furthest thing from my mind.
(This is an attitude that I have backed up in my career. “Sachs & Violens,” “Soulsearchers and Company,” “Fallen Angel,” plus my novel creations such as “Sir Apropos of Nothing” are nothing like my other comic book work.)
Well sir! There was much excoriation and bleats from the Image boys, attributing all manner of vicious motivations to my comments. Superheroes were what made them happy. Superheroes were what they wanted to do?
Okay. Fine.
Yet now Erik is expressing disappointment with the allegedly narrow field of achievement of other creators in terms far more nasty, juvenle and insulting than anything I ever said. Except his complaints apparently stem not from the quality of the work so much as who owns it. If someone else owns the material, apparently, then you’re just not trying hard enough and you’re a wimp and pussy. Which I’m sure will come as a shock to the army of acclaimed Oscar-winning screenwriters who haven’t owned any scripts they’ve written, ever.
What POSSIBLE motivation could Larsen have for excoriating those who toil in the realm of company owned universes? Could it be…jealousy? Well, let’s check his recent track record: A widely decried and short-lived run on “Aquaman” that seemed to exist primarily to tear down my work on the book, all of which outsold his…and an attempt to get assigned to the Hulk with a take that Marvel didn’t want to touch with a ten meter cattle prod. Maybe he’s the fox dismissing those grapes as just too dámņëd sour.
Or maybe he’s just shilling for Image, with “Show me what you can do” as a naked attempt to get people to bring their potential new series to Image. That being the case, fine. Nothing wrong with trying to drum up business. But why does it have to be done on the level of a mindless jock? I’d say that being the head of a publishing concern and acting like a jáçkášš isn’t the smartest way to elicit support, but certainly the lesson of Bill Jemas has already been learned by everyone. Well…almost everyone.
Know what I think? I think if people are happy writing only Spider-Man or Superman or Batman or whatever…God bless ’em. There are so many people in this country who are laboring at jobs that they despise, where the hëll does ANYONE get off bìŧçh-šláppìņg people who are living out their dreams…the dreams of writing the characters they grew up with? And by the way, having the sheer nerve and determination to brave the staggering odds of breaking in to be able to achieve those goals deserves far more than a dismissive “peachy.” It deserves a “well done you” and “welcome to the club” and “stick with it.” It doesn’t deserve snottiness and arrogance and the towel-snapping bullying of the jock mentality Larsen displays with such facility.
And how about the notion that the people who achieved their goal of crafting new directions for the DCU or Marvel Universe achieved their current station in life without stepping over the bodies of friends in order to do so.
Producing creator-owned superhero tales is what makes Erik Larsen happy. Producing company owned superhero tales is what makes other creators happy. One is not intrinsically more cowardly than the other.
Just one fan’s opinion.
PAD
• 
“His point isn’t that people do work for hire, his point is that too many people are content with just working on established characters and never (as in never in their career) bring anything new to the table.”
No, his point is that anyone who is happy to be doing Spider-Man and/or Superman and isn’t aspiring to anything beyond that is gutless.
Not only do I think that one has to be a considerable dìçk to go around insulting people simply because they’re doing what they love, but the point is also completely wrong. I worked on the Hulk for over a decade. Am I to understand that in the course of all those issues, I never brought “anything new to the table?” Never provided fresh or different perspectives on the Hulk? Never changed the character, explored new sides to him? Never introduced any new characters? Where are the new Wolverines? Wolverine was created AS AN OPPONENT FOR THE HULK.
Erik’s doesn’t have a point. He has a false premise: That anyone who is working exclusively in an ongoing series with a pre-existing character is not contributing anything of value or worth…that they are cowards…and that, for some reason, they should feel compelled to prove their worth to Erik Larsen by–let’s just say it–producing work that Image can publish, lest they continue to be pûššìëš.
All of this is not true. It is historically not true. It is demonstrably not true. And it is insultingly not true.
PAD
Very well said. Bravo.
I just took a very unscientific poll. I went back to the bar I just left and asked everyone there “Who is Peter David?”. Most people yelled out the writer of the Hulk.(A few said Sachs & Violens, Fallen Angel. Some even said Star Trek) I was surprised considering the people I hang out with. I then asked “Who is Erik Larson?”–Total Silence.
BID> In the 3rd Spider-Man Movie–I just heard that Hayden-Church will be playing the Sandman and Topher Grace will be playing Venom. If this is true, my niece–my four year old niece– should be able to kick Venom’s ášš
Heheh, I knew Larsen’s column would prove to be worth it for the trainwrecks alone.
Has anyone pointed out that most of his characetrs are thinly veiled analogues of famous characters yet? His Captain Marvel rip off even LOOKED like a blond Captain Marvel, Jr.
Nothing much to add to what Peter has already said so well…but it occurs to me that one of the reasons that comics are still in the cultural ghetto as far as most are concerned is that too many of the creators act like high schoolers. I’m sure that there are film directors and other movie folk who in their hearts are just as much of a dìçk as Mr Larson but most of them are smart enough to keep it to themselves. Off the top of my head, I can only recall Sean Penn doing something similar–slamming Nicholas Cage for not taking enough challenging roles, or something equally idiotic. And the near universal reaction was “Shaddup, punk!”
If this were coming from someone of significant accomplishment it would be easier to take seriously, though I’d still disagree. From Eric Larson? I have no personal beef with the guy but his work has never elicited strong feelings either way from me. If you’re going to throw around insults at your peers you had better make sure that most of them aren’t your betters.
Dave: Well, considering that Venom will have to be just about entirely CG anyway, having Topher Grace as Eddie Brock could work if they make him an Anti-Peter as well as an Anti-Spider-Man. If it’s true.
Sorry for perpetuating a digression. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread…
-Rex Hondo-
“His point isn’t that people do work for hire, his point is that too many people are content with just working on established characters and never (as in never in their career) bring anything new to the table.”
Even if this is his point – just who is he talking about? I’ve been through a list of writers that I follow and I can’t think of a single one who hasn’t been involved in producing a wholly original piece of work (in as much as such a thing can truly exist). He brought up DC’s Countdown in his examples, but every writer involved in that have had their own creator-owned projects.
While I agree with the overall sentiment that there is and should be more to comics than superhero properties, I think Larsen’s taking pot shots at imaginary tigers.
You really have to be appalled at how unintelligent Larsen’s reasoning is. Because someone may have not left behind a creator-owned character like he has, then all one has done is “a few pretty pictures” or “some fill-in issues” or “a cool cover or two”. To him “an impressive run on a title” is not good enough. No, the only measuring stick by which a creator’s career can be judged worthy is by having created a creator-owned character. You really have to admire the lengths one has to go to to come up with this type of fallacious reasoning.
Apparently it doesn’t occur to Erik that the vast majority of creators simply do not experience the type of hyped-up adulation that he and the Image Founders received in the last decade, and that because the industry is so different today that that sort of artist celebrity doesn’t exist right now, it is unlikely that anyone might do so again, so he’s pretty lucky that he enjoyed that. The fact of the matter is that Erik and the other Image guys were lucky that they were in the industry at a time when they could sell anything they put their names on, and it is for that reason that Image and their books worked. It’s idiotic to say that anyone else today would necessarily get the same assurance of success. He seems to be under the impression that everyone should create a Savage Dragon or whatever. Never mind that many, if not most artist, genuinely have no interest in writing, but merely want to be a part of the storytelling process by illustrating a writer’s stories (I am reminded of Harrison Ford’s comments that he has no interest in directing, just working with good ones himself). It simply doesn’t dawn on Larsen that some creators simply aren’t interested in reinventing the wheel, but feel genuine enjoyment in being a part of a good story.
His profane, judgmental attitude towards those who have taken a different career path than he has—something that most creators do not have as much control over as he had—and his insulting statement that those who do work for hire need to “grow up” is simply mind boggling in its ignorance and its arrogance.
Yeah, Erik, you really created something new. Between your total ignorance of anatomy, your inept use of cross-hatching, and your oh-so mature renditions of female characters with watermelon breasts and bee-stung lips, you’re a regular Leonardo Da Vinci.
Michael Brunner: BTW – wasn’t he “name withheld” from a few years back?
Luigi Novi: Yes. He admitted so in the letter pages of The Savage Dragon.
I have a theory. After whatever power struggle resulted in putting Larsen at the top of Image, how has the company done? Didn’t he talk about bringing in new and different books? Was he able to pull that off? I honestly don’t know, a lot of what Image publishes doesn’t interest me and over the years, it has seemed like they start with fanfare and then disappear quietly.
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he is struggling to get people to bring their books to Image. Too many have gone to Image and then left when it didn’t work out as advertised. And I can’t imagine that little things like keeping deadlines are a source of strife at Image.
Let me come to Mr. Larsen’s defense (not that he needs me). Yes, he worked in mainstream comics before moving to Image, and yes he continues to occasionally do a few mainstream titles. However, his principal craetive focus for the last 12 years has been his Savage Dragon comic, which he writes, draws, and inks himself. I’ve read all 100 plus issues, and it’s a very enjoyable comic. It’s also one of the longest creative runs on a comic (next to of course, Dave Sim’s Cerebus).
As an Image creator and publisher, he has been welcoming of new and talented creators to his company, including Erik (Age of Bronze) Shanower, Rob Kirkman, Brian Bendis, and Warren Ellis. While Image might have started out as a mainstream superhero company, it has certainly evolved into more than that.
Now, should he be criticizing creators that spend their life working for the big 2? Probably not. However, I think both Erik and Peter in a way are in their own way trying to encourage writers and artists to think outside the box and create more innovative comics.
I’ve enjoyed Erik’s Dragon and was especially interested to see where the current Dragon /Bush/Kerry election storyline *Did I mention it was late? ;)* was going.
Erik as always come across as very reactionary though, when I originally read this piece, I had to wonder whether he was simply attempting to stir things up, hoping to get a number of responses from pros….. maybe to draw more to Image? It came across as a poor man’s Quesada statment, which is pretty dámņ poor.
Fred
Appropriate that Larsen’s column is called “One Fan’s opinion.
Appropriate because he’s a prime example that a great fan does not necessarily a great creator make.
Clearly, he does (to use his own words) “understand the desire to clutch on to the security of a guaranteed page rate.” Yet, clearly, he himself is not above (again, using his own words) “sucking on the corporate tit” occasionally.
These are the first words of Larsen’s I’ve read in years, be it “opinion” column or a comic. And, it reminded me why that is. I think I’m good for another few years without them.
You see this is why I hate traversing the internet. It’s broken my fan boy heart to learn that the talented people that brought me some well incredible, incredible hulk stories aren’t the best of friends.
Anyway I think this issue is part of a larger one which is that comic book fans and or comic book retailers don’t support books that shy away from the Superhero genre. Even if a comic book creator wants to create his or her own universe the market place provides no real incentive for them to do so. In the five years I have returned to reading comic books I have seen really great books as well as really great companies die due a lack of interest from comic book fans. Until the average person who reads both Batman and Spider-man starts picking up books like Fallen Angel the comic book medium will never move beyond decades old characters wearing spandex.
The only solid point Erik has ever made was the one at the end of his drawing pencil.
So what if a guy doesn’t feel any great need to go out and recreate the wheel? I grew up with guys ached to break into comics with every shred of their being. You know what most of them wanted to do? They wanted to write or draw the next great Batman or Spider-Man story. They wanted to play in the heads of the charecters that they grew up reading and enjoying themselves.
It’s not a bad thing. It’s not even a comic book thing. How many actors talk about not feeling that thay’ve made it until they do Shakespeare at one of the major stages in England or some other major show on Broadway. Why is that so different then a comic writer saying that he really won’t feel that he’s made it until he writes (fill in the blank) at the big two?
PAD wrote:
> Thor is Thor.
Well, dámņ. And here I thought he was Raoul the Talking Cat.
>All of this is not true. It is historically not true. It is demonstrably not true. And it is insultingly not true.
And that, my dear sir, is absolutely true. I find it interesting that anyone who gets paid writing (which is what I am more interested in than anything else) is degraded because they do work for hire.
Hey, getting paid for writing? That’s a dream gig. As far as I’m concerned.
I sorta do understand what Mr. Larsen is trying to do, but at the same time he did it badly.
– T
Yes.
The comics industry would be much better off if Frank Miller, Alan Moore, Mike Mignola, Erik Larsen, Jim Lee, Todd McFarland, Paul Chadwick, Colleen Doran, Kyle Baker, Warren Ellis, Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, Dave Sim, Dave Gibbons, Brian K. Vaughan, Carla Speed McNeil, Jeff Smith, Terry Moore, Kurt Busiek, Mark Waid, Sergio Aragones and Peter David only worked on company owned characters for their entire career.
Bring Back Zot: Let me come to Mr. Larsen’s defense (not that he needs me). Yes, he worked in mainstream comics before moving to Image, and yes he continues to occasionally do a few mainstream titles. However, his principal craetive focus for the last 12 years has been his Savage Dragon comic, which he writes, draws, and inks himself.
Luigi Novi: The issue is not really whether or not Erik has done that. The issue is whether those who have not done this are “pûššìëš,” “pathetic” “cowards” or in need of “growing up,” as he asserted in his column.
Bring Back Zot: Now, should he be criticizing creators that spend their life working for the big 2? Probably not. However, I think both Erik and Peter in a way are in their own way trying to encourage writers and artists to think outside the box and create more innovative comics.
Luigi Novi: It is the height of euphemism to refer to his insulting and condescending column as “encouragement.”
Whatever otherwise legitimate points Erik ever has is usually overshadowed by the utterly unprofessional and anti-intellectual language and fallacious reasoning with which he conveys it, whether it’s the irrelevant letter in Wizard with which he responded to David Michelenie’s assertion that he was the sole creator of Venom, or his ridiculous Name Withheld letters in CBG, or this newest incoherent rant of his.
Jerry C: So what if a guy doesn’t feel any great need to go out and recreate the wheel?
Luigi Novi: Hmmm…now that sounds familiar…. 🙂
PAD,
I think history has proven all this true. Image comics bombed horribly and can now be found in 2 for a dollar bins whereas PAD stuff is continually being reprinted in trade paperbacks to support demand.
Matt
“Yes.
The comics industry would be much better off if Frank Miller, Alan Moore, Mike Mignola, Erik Larsen, Jim Lee, Todd McFarland, Paul Chadwick, Colleen Doran, Kyle Baker, Warren Ellis, Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, Dave Sim, Dave Gibbons, Brian K. Vaughan, Carla Speed McNeil, Jeff Smith, Terry Moore, Kurt Busiek, Mark Waid, Sergio Aragones and Peter David only worked on company owned characters for their entire career.”
You miss a key point here. No one is saying that you should only work the big two and never work your own gig. The argument with Erik’s statements is that there is nothing wrong with or nothing lesser about anyone who wishes to do so. I love some of the great work done by all those guys on their own creations. I’ve loved many of the projects that they did for the big two as well.
Hello Peter and everyone,
I just wanted to commend you on the work you’ve done so far. I picked up a copy of “The Hulk” today because I wanted an example to follow while I write my own first novelization of a movie (for money!). Any pointers, references or advice? If anything at all, thanks for a point of contact with this site!
mj
Eric Larson was very lucky – he followed a very succesful McFarlane on Spiderman, where his similar style and a decent run got him good publicity in time for the founding of Image. Now, point is – I recall just after Image was founded it had made a big deal out of creators rights and offered other creators a place for their expression. This led to a number of others taking up the challenge and creating their own concepts for image… only to be uncerimoniously turned away! One of these was Jerry Ordway with his ‘Wildstar’ character, if a genuine talent like Ordway could be spurned by Image what exactly does that say?!
If the world was as simple as Larsdon makes out everyone would be creating their own characters… It’s a very old and cynical argument.
“Jerry C: So what if a guy doesn’t feel any great need to go out and recreate the wheel?
Luigi Novi: Hmmm…now that sounds familiar…. :-)”
Yeah. But I meant that it’s fine with me if a guy wants to write Superman rather then going out and creating his own Superman clone. If you want to write Captain America then do it. Don’t turn out a book that is Captain America with a different name but a script that only requires a name change to be printed as CA. I, and many others, won’t waste our time on cheap clones of icons that we like. Dig?
Wow…
I’ve heard that kind of “if you don’t do things the way I like things being done” thing forever down here, where we do not have a comic book industry. Nice to know where our guys are getting it.
I will never understand the need to bash on people working in other people’s characters. As someone else said, Frank Miller’s Dark Night Returns is still one of Batman’s finest stories, and we can put examples out all night if we want. And sure, some completely original books out there are awesome too (I’m in love with The Walking Dead right now, although it’s not exactly completely original). Why Larsen can’t see that the two things aren’t mutually exclusive?
If he was ranting about people copying scripts that were done before, I would understand it. Even if he was ranting about people not reading original characters because they’re too busy reading whatever the Big Two are putting out, I would understand it.
But his whole rant sounds more like “You’re not producing the comic books I want to read, so you’re not worthy” than anything else. It’s really pathetic.
Just to clarify, only the writer, artist/writers are the people Erik was refering to, correct? Because if not it seems unfair to call all of the artist who couldn’t write them selves out of a wet paper bag cowards And what about the inkers? Having finally gotten achieved my dream and gotten a work for hire job inking a comic for a company thats about to spring into existance, am I a coward? incedently the comic I’m inking is called Bullet Time written by Steve Forbes and penciled by Dave Simons. I must say Daves art is awesome. Is Dave a coward for working on this title? It’s differnt, not established characters, but written by Steve. Sigh. Maybe Erik is just one of those people who get pìššëd øff if someone is happy and doing what they love. We all know people like that.
JAC
Eh, I think Erik just wanted attention, pure and simple. That’s why he worked to create an opinion he knew would piss people off, and express it in as crude and offensive a way as possible. He wanted people talking about him, and the simplest way to do that is say something stupid and infflamitory.
I mean, look how well it worked for Bill Bennett…
Okay, I went and read Larsen’s little rant.
In my own relatively-unbiased opinion (as in I had never heard this man’s name before, and am only vaguely familiar with the character he’s so proud of), he is so full of šhìŧ it’s turned his roots muddy-brown.
Is Ronald D. Moore a “pussy”, a “coward”, because the situations and characters he’s dealing with on Battlestar Galactica were originally created by Glen Larson, back in the ’70s? All he’s done is completely rewrite the backstory, and explore the darkness potential in their situation (oh, and change the gender on some of the characters – big whoop) – but since he didn’t make the characters up out of whole cloth, I guess the past season-and-a-half is nothing to be proud of later, whereas Joss Whedon’s Western-thinly-disguised-as-space-opera is some great original work, because at least Joss invented the characters, or at least pressed the templates into action himself…
Now, for those of you who just started slavering and cutting that last phrase for pasting, I’m not saying that enjoying Firefly is some sort of sign of great moral degradation, or anything – but I think we can agree that BSG is markedly better as science fiction, and as television, despite the fact that the original (sucky) concept was someone else’s.
Similarly, from what little I’ve seen of this “Savage Dragon”, while the character conception may be Larsen’s own, I’d have to say that for sheer originality and skill of writing, it’s not a patch on PAD’s “Tempest Fugit” storyline. PAD may not have created the Hulk, but in those few issues, he made the character his own once again.
For that matter, does Larsen’s rant mean that if one creates a character, but cedes control to the publishing company (not an uncommon arrangement, as I understand it), one is no longer creating? Are the characters PAD created in “X-Factor” somehow lessened in originality because the company owns them, rather than PAD himself?
As for myself, I can’t draw, ink, or write to save my life. The only original characters I’ve created in comic-style are for role-playing games like “Champions” (Frostfire, the Target, Mass, Wetware). Since they were original, from out of the interior of muh own haid, does that make them somehow inherently superior to, for instance, PAD’s run on “Aquaman”? I don’t think so…
Okay, my first thought upon reading Larsen’s
“article” was that he really shouldn’t be writing things to be posted on the internet when he’s that drunk.
But, I noticed something else on the comicbookresources page which might help explain Larsen’s rant: Angel Medina, penciler of Spawn, has just signed an exclusive deal with Marvel. Larsen does expicitly deride those involved the “‘Big Two’s corporate pìššìņg contest” (and to be fair, that’s not an entirely inaccurate characterization of the “exclusives” battle). Image’s chief may just have gone off because he’s mad at losing talent to a rival company.
And while there may be a point to be made that SOME individual comic writers/artists/etc. should try harder, Larsen’s blanket condemnations are so over-the-top as to be useless. And, while I’m not offended by the use of most “bad words”, his “bûllšhìŧ”s, “fûçkìņg”s, “fat ášš”es, and “pussy”s aren’t exactly conducive to making his point in an essay for a professional site. Further, to quote the man:
“And sure, you can find a publisher who will pay you a paycheck to do your creator-owned project for their company, and they’ll take a big hunk of your ownership and the rights, but you’ll still have your security blanket to cling to.
You big baby.
Why don’t you get off your fat ášš and do something?”
He’s NOT just saying that creators should also create their own original concepts. That isn’t good enough for him; that’s not what he’s arguing for.
On the positive side, I was able to read a good Fallen Angel article … albiet one with an alarming headline. Reading it termed a “mini-series” was worrysome – but, to quickly assure anyone who may not have read the piece yet, there are several references to story arcs, and by the end of the article, it is stated that, presuming good sales, IDW intends to publish Fallen Angel for as long as PAD wants to write it. So, cool.
“Yes.
The comics industry would be much better off if Frank Miller, Alan Moore, Mike Mignola, Erik Larsen, Jim Lee, Todd McFarland, Paul Chadwick, Colleen Doran, Kyle Baker, Warren Ellis, Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, Dave Sim, Dave Gibbons, Brian K. Vaughan, Carla Speed McNeil, Jeff Smith, Terry Moore, Kurt Busiek, Mark Waid, Sergio Aragones and Peter David only worked on company owned characters for their entire career. “
and i’ll miss you most of all, straw man.
Speaking of blanket statements …
Jonathan (the other one) wrote:
“but I think we can agree that BSG is markedly better as science fiction, and as television, [than Firefly] despite the fact that the original (sucky) concept was someone else’s.”
I’ve tried to watch the new Battlestar Galactica several times. It’s never been able to hold my interest for more than a couple of minutes.
Now, as far as whether “Firefly” or “Battlestar” is “better” science fiction, I won’t necessarily debate that with you (though when/if you see
“Serenity”, it may be more SF than you expect …). I do have a good amount of science fiction novels among the books on the bookshelf beside me (though many of them are more Robert Heinlein than “way out in deep space totally driven by theoretical concepts and devices” type-SF). And I have seen a great deal of the Star Treks – I would probably buy some Deep Space Nine seasons if they weren’t $100 a pop, while I still find some of TNG, mainly most of the first season, pretty unwatchable. And, Star Wars has been a MAJOR part of my imagination since I was a kid [No, I wasn’t named after Skywalker – I came first; and he’s not really one of my favorite characters, either :)] – though Lucas himself doesn’t call it “science fiction”. But I’m not drawn to shows or films, at least at this stage in my life, just because they’re SF. You may very well have more of a background in science fiction, and/or thoughts on what “real” SF is, than I, so I’ll conceed that point to you if you want.
But please don’t presume to speak for me and say that your BSG is “markedly better television” than Firefly. IMHO, the latter show is filled with compelling and endearing characters and interesting situations which led me to re-watch the episodes several times on tape before buying the DVD set, and led me to go see an – excellent – sequel film on its opening night. Your BSG, on the other hand, I personally don’t find as watchable as the ORIGINAL Battlestar Galactica, LET ALONE Firefly.
And I don’t mean to put down your show by that. I know how it can rankle me when someone insults Buffy the Vampire Slayer or one of my other favorites. I’m not saying that the new Battlestar Galactica isn’t a well-written, produced, acted, maybe even great show; I just personally cannot get into it. While with Firefly, I certainly, certainly could. So please don’t assume that we all can and must agree that BSG is “markedly better television”, because I, to speak only for myself, can’t and won’t.
::As an Image creator and publisher, he has been welcoming of new and talented creators to his company, including Erik (Age of Bronze) Shanower, Rob Kirkman, Brian Bendis, and Warren Ellis.::
IIRC, Jim Valentino brought in Bendis when he was trying to push past superheroes. It seems like Jim Lee and Homage brought in Ellis, since Ellis was writing Stormwatch (and GASP! not something creator owned). I remember reading about the other Image founders displeasure with Valentino’s esoteric choices for new creators, too, although I can’t back that up.
::I sorta do understand what Mr. Larsen is trying to do, but at the same time he did it badly.::
I think if I had been Mr Larsen, I’d have simply said, “I think creators who don’t try their hand at their own creations are missing a heck of a lot of hard work and headaches, but a lot of fun, too!”
It’s too bad his head is too far up his ášš for him to get the words out.
Something occurred to me as I read these posts.
Didn’t half the original Image guys work on books that Peter David wrote?
If not for the good stories that Peter wrote, Image probably would not have come into existence and the Image guys would never have gotten so rich.
Maybe they should be paying him royalties in honor of his making them famous.
If not for the good stories that Peter wrote, Image probably would not have come into existence and the Image guys would never have gotten so rich.”
I wouldn’t go quite that far. However, when Bob Harras first showed me Todd’s artwork, he said, “Do you think you can work with this guy? Because if not, I’ll get you someone else.” And I looked at his artwork and said, “Yeah, there’s something there beyond being a Byrne clone. Let’s work with him, see if we can improve can improve his storytelling.”
So if I’d gone the other way, I don’t know that he’d NEVER have gotten a rep. But it would have taken him longer.
PAD
I guess I don’t understand what’s the big deal about this particular column–compared to his others. Yes, I get that people are offended, but Larsen didn’t, this time, call anyone out by name. He could have just as easily been yelling at himself in the mirror while dictating his column to his computer. As I showed on the Bendis! board the President/Publisher of Image made some highly inappropriate commentary in his previous postings.
I thought his David Mack comment could have been interpreted as a put down because Mack doesn’t publish at Image due to his move to Icon. And I kind of thought women in general would be up at arms about the weird vágìņá digression. Apparently not, though. Read Larsen’s archive or go to the Bendis Board if the discussion interests you. I kind of wonder if the reason no one cared to discuss the topic at BMB’s board was on account of how so many are trying to break into the industry (myself included) and don’t want to cause any controversy with the gent in power. On the other hand, it took a lot of words for me to get to the point and maybe no one read far enough down to bother with it.
http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=33379
Question:
When was the last really great character created via working at Marvel and/or DC?
Peter mentioned Wolverine in Hulk but that was 30 years ago. Out of the characters Larsen mentioned I think Speedball is the latest and that’s roughly 20 years ago. Liefeld co-creations of Deadpool & Cable were 15 years ago at least.
But since then?
Maybe that’s why Larsen wants people to self publish original characters. Because the industry can use some new exciting characters.
Last weekend I along with many other cartoonists/writers/artists had a table at the SPX show in Bethesda, MD.
Among the wares for sell were hundreds of original and new characters and books.
Hmmm… I didn’t see Mr. Larsen there.
If Erik truely believes in what he says, why wasn’t he at the show mining new creators with new characters to publish under Image.
Or am I giving Mr. Larsen too much credit.
Probably because Larsen doesn’t do much of the mining himself. I’m pretty sure Image staff have lots of submissions to go through as is without looking for more. Especially after Diamonds new terms.
But who knows, maybe somebody from Image was there. IIRC they found a lot of the Flight creators via convention browsing.
Currently Erik is away visiting his grandfather celebrating his 100th birthday.
When was the last really great character created via working at Marvel and/or DC?
Now, the question is, are you asking about “great” characters or “marketable” characters?
Well, not being a regular comic reader (only trades), the first that immediately pops to mind is Hush, from the Batman books. That’s been, what, a year or so ago?
-Rex Hondo-
“When was the last really great character created via working at Marvel and/or DC?”
How about Buzz from Peter’s Supergirl book? I’d still to see Peter come back and work on some DC book and have Buzz appear. Same thing with Wally. Oh and Twilight. And Cutter and Mattie and Comet/Andy. Sigh. I miss that Supergirl book.
>Superman is George Wylie’s gladiator crossed with Doc Savage, with roots going back to Hercules.
Partly disagree. Wylie’s character? Sure, if you’re thinking the original Supes. And Hercules? Sort of. But Doc? No, he’s more of a Batman inspiration: very athletic and superbly competent but still human and very much an independently wealthy gadgeteer. Too, Supes operates with the blessings of the police whereas Doc, as with the early Batman, sometimes was at odds with them.
>I’d get these rejection notices saying there was no market for wholly original concepts of mine, and in the meantime I’d get constant e-mails from fans saying, “When are you going to write stuff that’s your own work?”
Sad to see it isn’t just the film studios who are so massively unclear on the concept. In connection with which, a Brazilian friend translated an article for me out of one of their major magazines. It theorized that one big part of the reason Hollywood has turned out so many stinkers of late is that most major studios have been bought out by big companies which now run them as they do all their other businesses, not bothering to think that the creative process in film making simply cannot be handled in the same way. The article just might have a point there.
>I kept thinking throughout Larson’s latest “wouldn’t it be nice if everyone had a publishing machine in their basement? Just to produce their own work?”
Unfortunately, it isn’t everyone who can be as fortunate, or as deservedly successful, as Belgian comic book writer/artist Jean Graton who now has his own publishing house whereby he now controls every aspect of the creation/publishing/printing of his long-running [no pun intended] race-car driving character Michel Vaillant.
“But Doc? No, he’s more of a Batman inspiration: very athletic and superbly competent but still human and very much an independently wealthy gadgeteer.”
Clark Savage – Clark Kent
Man of Bronze – Man of Steel
Fortress of Solitude – um…
Savage was a superman in the original tradition – Superman was just that extrapolated to the nth degree.
I maybe wrong…. but all of Image comics sucked. Tomb Raiden Gen 13 what kinda crap was that? I think the last Image comic I bought was Jim Mahfood or whatever that was. The only reason Image was popular was because of Marvel otherwise we wouldn’t have ever been a Erik Larsen. It takes alot of guts and money now to do something like Dave Sim’s cerebus. You gotta be bold and original without faking your pages. It’s a tough act to follow or not follow.
Hey Peter, I just heard OJ Simpsons will be selling photos for 95$ a pop at NecroComicon.
Now let me take a stab in the dark here…
Boy, does Larsen love to start šhìŧ or what? LOL… you can always count on him to, once in a while, just try and piss the entire comics ‘community’ off for the hëll of it. I remember a few years back he had some pretty derogatory stuff to say about comics readers and comics in general that pìššëd ME off so bad I dropped whatever I was reading he had to do with back then (Nova? Defenders? That Fantastic Four maxi?) and wrote a couple letters to Marvel steaming and ranting about his complete disregard and lack of respect for the entire medium and the few people left to support it. Ah… glorious days of hazy innocence.
And this time around, I suppose he’s mainly trying to get people to throw pitches at Image – albeit in not a very elegant manner – or maybe just to increase the hitcount on his column, who knows. At least we get a nice little pìššìņg contest out of it.
That said, his previous column (about superheroes and aging) was pretty dámņ good.
Again–OJ Simpson=NecroComicon=Los Angeles.
Me=Necronomicon=Tampa.
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What ghoul wants an O.J. Simpson autograph?
You know, I’m betting Larsen hasn’t been to the Mocca show in NYC. It’s one of the reasons I have to take his comments with a grain of salt. The Mocca event is so different from any mainstream comic con I’ve ever been to. Not just in the material on display but also in the demographics of the people attending the show.
Every time I’ve walked away from a Mocca show, I have the feeling that there is a vital, thriving and artistic community using comics as a means to express themselves – but, it’s a very different beast from the material put out by the mainstream companies. Web comics also are an interesting alternative to what is put out by mainstream publishers but, throughout his rant (and I may be reading into this), I get the sense Larsen just hasn’t seen a lot of this material.
I know for a while one of Erik Larsens favorite comic books (that he went to the comic shop to buy, take home and read) was Fantagraphics Minimum Wage.
Speaking of Doc Savage, this is off the main topic, but it’s a theory I’ve wanted to bring up for some time…(And it does come back around to theme of originality.)
Another comics tradition that can be traced back to Doc Savage, in part, is the “team of experts.” (Other pulp heroes had teams of assistants, such as the Avenger, but Doc’s was particularly prominent.) If you reduce Doc’s role as the central character and spread some of his attributes around the other characters, you wind up with a team like the Challengers of the Unknown, which can be traced forwards on the one hand to the Fantastic Four and through them to the original X-Men and Doom Patrol, and on the other hand to DC’s various groups like the Sea Devils and Cave Carson’s crew. (And though Monk and Ham weren’t the first duo to bicker and play practical jokes on each other, they weren’t the last either, as the Thing and Human Torch demonstrate.)