I’m probably going to expand upon this in “But I Digress”, but…
I was at a playground yesterday with Caroline. There was a little boy there, seven years old, named Steven. He was talking to other kids about Spider-Man, and what a big Spider-Man fan he was. He was showing off his Spidey sneakers very proudly.
And I said to him, “Do you read Spider-Man comics?”
He looked at me oddly and said, “No.”
“Why not?”
“I watch the movies,” he said. “And I play the video game. I beat Doc Ock,” he added proudly.
“Okay, but…Spider-Man’s a comic book character. Aren’t you at all interested in reading the comic?”
He shook his head. His ten year old brother said, “Why should he?”
I said, “Well, because you keep watching the movies, it’s the same story. What about new adventures, new stories about Spider-Man?”
The big brother shrugged and said, “He watches the cartoon.”
“I watch the cartoon,” Steve echoed. “And the movies. And play the game. I’m a Spider-Man fan!”
Spidey’s biggest fan…except for, y’know, the whole comic book thing. That he really doesn’t care about.
And why should he? How many have you, in the past five years, have seen a James Bond movie or played the video game? Now…how many of you have read a James Bond book? Seen a Sherlock Holmes film or a repeat of the Jeremy Brett TV series? As opposed to reading Conan Doyle or any of the many pastiches?
Comics used to be the only venue for following the adventures of iconic heroes, just as books were once the only means of keeping up with literary heroes. And now the heros’ popularity has outstripped any need for literature…or readers.
And you wonder why comics are hemorrhaging readers.
PAD
• 
Comics are a funny thing. Like any consumer industry, they absolutely depend upon generating sales, and that means drawing in new readers, and keeping the existing ones for as long as possible. Back when I was heavy into comics, I think the average life span of a comic-reader/collector was like 4 years. If you kept a reader longer than that, chances were you had a customer for life. I’m not an avid collecter, or even casual, really (the only books I’ve bought in the past 2 years were JLA/Avengers, PAD’s entire Fallen Angel, and trying to get Serenity), but I do continue to be a fan. So, while my active collecting years lasted almost 15 years, I still follow the industry, and keep open the possibilty that some day, my son may want to venture into collecting on his own.
But, just as Hollywood is finding that they aren’t the only option around anymore, comics aren’t just competing against other comics anymore. There’s a broader entertainment competition going on, and interactive entertainment is taking huge chunks of the traditional market away from movies, books, and comics. Even TV is suffering as the next generations discover that it’s much more fun to actually participate with the story, or even create the story yourself, than it is to just sit and observe, especially when the passive entertainment is so often lacking in truly compelling moments. So-called reality TV was such a hit, I think, because it was something new, and even if we all knew that it wasn’t really real life, we could fool ourselves for a while.
Comics still struggle for mainstream exposure. The movies help, but only a little. And as Steve demonstrates, that little exposure is often not enough.
I was nosing around Wikipedia this weekend, and read PAD’s entry there. At least according to Wiki, the Death of Jean DeWolf was PAD’s big break into writing. In many ways, that was also the story that got me hooked on comics (not sure if I should thank you for that or not, PAD…when I think about all the other things I could have done with the thousands of dollars I spent on funny books…). But that story had a lot of things that far too many stories lacked, and that’s rather simply put, a compelling story. Without the human element of a good story, comcis are just people doing incredible things in funny costumes. The tricky part is writing something that crosses beyond the simple fantastic of a man that can fly, and making you care about what that man does THIS month…and the next, and the next.
One problem with reading on-line. Will the issue still be available to re-read a month, a year, a decade from now? My ‘paper’ copy is.
There are never guarantees with digital copies. It’s why I’m still hesitant to use iTunes, and am thoroughly disgusted with my experiences with MLB.com.
The MLB.com situation was this: I had the games downloaded and backed up to a DVD. They were from the 2003 playoffs and another, classic game.
So, I had them backed up. Went through a hard drive wipe.
Went to watch the games, and it said I couldn’t. I called MLB.com and they said that, at the time I bought the files, the info for the games was on my hard drive, not my MLB.com account.
Well, they never told anybody how to back up that information as well.
They said they’d adjust my account so I could access those games again, but that never happened. So I gave up, basically throwing $15 out the window.
I figure, maybe one of these days, I’ll call them up again and make them try again. And if they question why I waited so long (like they did last time), I’ll grill them on why the hëll they can’t do what they say they’re going to do.
So, like I said, there are no guarantees, and that’s part of dealing with any DRM stuff.
It’s funny that we try to say that kids won’t spend $3 a book but they will spend $50 – $60 a clip for the latest video game.
Does anyone know the calculation for present/future value of money that would show how much a $.50 comic in 1980 would cost today? I think $3 is ridiculous too but I buy my books online at 35% off so I don’t really feel it as much.
On line issues can be a mess. My wife tried to purchase a song from Wal Mart, and it took 3 days before she was able to play it. And then, she could only play it on the PC that she originally downloaded it on.
I’m waiting for the RIAA to feel the backlash from their campaign to stop illegal downloading. And I’m not talking about the backlash from consumers that decide that crappy product = low sales. I mean the legal continuation of their view that you don’t purchase a song or an album, but only a limited sets of rights to listen/play those songs for personal use. Because that means that the rights you buy aren’t tied to the physical CD or whatever medium you get…they’re intangible rights, and as soon as my CDs start to become unplayable, I except the RIAA members to be providing all us consumers with replacement access to the rights that we bought from them.
This goes to the long-term re-use value of an on-line comic. Or book, or anything, really. In addition to my comic collection, I’ve got a large collection of fantasy/sci-fi books. My wife asks me why I keep them around, and I reply “because I may want to re-read them someday.” I’d like to think that my memory is good enough, now and forever, to not need refreshers on my favorite stories. But just as I occasionally, once every few years, want to flip through Crisis, I want to revist other stories, too. If the only version of a story I have access to is a digital one, I can only access that so long as the digital technology remains viable.
According to one source (http://oregonstate.edu/Dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/infcf16652005.xls) a $.50 comic in 1980 would cost $1.17 today. Granted, since then, the paper quality, color durability, and other cost inputs (talent, marketing, etc) have also gone up, and the comic you’re getting today most likely has relatively higher input costs than the comic from 1980, so it’s not a straight comparission.
It’s funny that we try to say that kids won’t spend $3 a book but they will spend $50 – $60 a clip for the latest video game.
It’s not so funny when said comic gives you 10 minutes of entertainment, and a video game can give you dozens of hours.
You do the math.
It’s funny that everyone is talking about the decline of comic readership, yet every other day there’s a news story about the most recent Marvel/DC title to “sell out” and go into second, and third, printings. When I mentioned at my local shop that I thought the companies were manufacturing these “sell outs” in order to create another news blip, they looked at me like I was crazy.
But back on the topic at hand. I am and always have been a very vivacious reader. I leapt from Hardy Boys to Stephen King (Firestarter) when I was 7. My ex-wife also likes to read. However, our kids (ages 12 and 14) liked to read very little, if anything at all. Until now.
My son, the oldest, started reading some of my comics. He has no interest in reading the monthly pamphlets, but will read the trades. He also shows little interest in the “regular” titles like Spider-Man and Batman. The books he likes are Y- The Last Man, Runaways, Fables, Bone, Supreme Power and Preacher (he’s on the second book now).
I don’t know what that means in the way of readership or delivery or style or substance, but there it is.
I did finally get my daughter to read the first bone trade, so maybe there is hope after all.
So Steve the Spider-Man Fan doesn’t read comics.
And it’s your fault PAD.
Didn’t you use to work for Marvel in their sales and marketing department? If you were still doing that, then you could fight to get Marvel comics into as many venues as possible.
But oh no, you HAD to be a big shot writer! ;^)
Seriously, Marvel sells direct through Diamond. Diamond primarily services the specialty retail shops. The retail shops operate on a shoestring budget. There are fewer shops every year. So readers can’t get comics and lose interest in the medium.
And the solution to this is… more comics?
I never understood Marvel’s thinking on that.
The number of places that sell their product gets smaller every year. So Marvel’s sales should be shrinking on a proportionate basis to that. And Marvel’s only ideas on stemming that tide is, to put out more books?
How about lowering the cost per book? Or making books returnable? Or breaking their exclusive agreement with Diamond and distribute through as many companies as want to carry their books?
Or, and this is a wild idea, getting their books into big name chain stores like Target and Wal-Mart? Sure, that would kill the direct market, but staking your future on the direct market isn’t that hot of an idea.
And it possible that comicbook specialty stores could lose the Marvel business and make it up by supporting smaller press books (Soul Searchers And Co. anyone?)
Marvel keeps fighting for a bigger slice of an ever-shrinking pie. Instead of looking for other pies.
If I were you Peter, I’d go to Marvel and tell them the story of Steve and see what they’re willing to do to fix the problems that they caused.
Matt
(I don’t mean to pick on Marvel, but it was a Marvel character, DC is as just too much to blame as Marvel for doing stupid things.)
Have to admit, the only comics I buy anymore are the GI Joe ones (Rat is shortened from Swamp Rat, my favorite charcter in the Joe stories I write) but I’ll still pick up an X book or Spidey on occasion.
I don’t think price is the problem. I think parents are the problem, and also the solution. Brian knows that Daddy reads, Mommy reads, books aren’t just for taking up space. I have a smallish comic collection, but except for my Joes and a few Treks, none of them are bagged. They’re for reading, not saving. Brian would be able to read any of them, assuming he could read and they were here, not in storage until we find a house. Anyway, enough of my problems. Show a kid a book, he’ll think A book. Show him you reading a book, enjoying a book, and then you’ve made a reader.
And no, I’ve never read any Fleming novels, but I can practically recite Holmes from memory, and Lost World is in the ones I need to get through.
One last thought–I’ve noticed kind of a disturbing trend among those who read and those who don’t. Everyone seems to want to closely guard what they like and never venture into anything new.
This week I’ll be giving my stepson seven comics for his seventh birthday, which is around the age I was when I got into comics over 30 years ago. But I know within days they will be lost somewhere in his room, buried with his Happy Meal toys, Yu-gi-oh cards, video games, DVDs, action figures, and various other superhero ephemera, many times the number of “things” I had when I was his age. It’s not the same world… some day there will be no new comic books, and eventually not many people will miss them.
Re: books selling out. That info alone isn’t really a good indicator of the state of the market. In addition, you need to know the size of the print run. Fallen Angel sold out at my LCS, but they only carried maybe 3 copies. Compare that to the 20 copies of X-Whatever, 16 of which get sold, and while Fallen Angel has indeed “sold-out,” all of here know the value of that phrase.
So while books do indeed sell out, when they only have print runs of 20,000, compared to the 100,000+ (or whatever the numbers from the 90s were), you can truly see how the market has shrunk.
Craig’s point about the hours of play you can get from a video game is a well-made one. We did some of that math, comparing our favorite X-Box games against a movie night out. Even at a matinee, my wife and I spend over $20 for around a 2 hour event (she has to have popcorn). That’s about $10 an hour for the pair of us.
Compare that to Jade Empire for Xbox. We both played, it took over 20 hours total, each, for us to complete it, for around $50. For the 40 hours we played and enjoyed that game, it cost us $1.25 an hour. And that’s only if we each play it through once, as many games like that have a high-replayability, bringing the per-hour cost down even more. Was it as mentally stimulating or engrossing as a well-written comic? Probably not, but then again, the story from a well-made game like Jade Empire is in most ways better than the average comic, and on a par with some of the best.
And I’m someone that loves to read a good story. For today’s kids, raised on twitch games and instant access to information and entertainment, comics really have to do a better job of bringing them into the hobby, and keeping them there, if they are to survive.
“One last thought–I’ve noticed kind of a disturbing trend among those who read and those who don’t. Everyone seems to want to closely guard what they like and never venture into anything new.”
Well yeah, except that extends to readers as well. As much as they talk the talk of wanting stuff that’s new and different, the walk they walk is directly toward that which is old and steadfast. Not only will they not put down money on someting new, but the existence of new and different oftentimes doesn’t even register on their consciousness.
I’ve mentioned it before, but I’ll bring it up again: I was at San Diego last year, and there were so many people coming up to me expressing excitement about my return to Hulk and about Madrox. “We read everything you write,” they said. And I’d ask every single person who said this the same thing: “Do you read Fallen Angel?” Of every ten people, nine returned blank looks. (I suspect if I’d brought up Soulsearchers, the number would have gone up to ten for ten). They’d never heard of the series even though it had been coming out for over a year, had gotten rave critical notices, and I’d been pushing it endlessly everywhere I could.
That’s my target audience, and even THEY weren’t trying it.
PAD
I’ve read all of the John Gardner and Raymond Benson Bond novels, and have only now back-tracked to read the Fleming novels, and they’re still enjoyable despite being somewhat “dated”. I’ve never seen any of the Holmes films, but have read all the stories.
Sometimes, it’s a sad thing to realize that, and understand that I am making a generalization here, kids are more likely to know their way around a computer or gaming console before they read a book, and thus may be unaware to the power of their own imagination (after all, no matter who EON ultimately decide to cast, in my mind whenever I read a Bond novel, the representation will always be Pierce Brosnan). No matter how much money ILM puts into special effects, it can never equate to the unlimited FX budget of the human mind.
While games and movies are entertaining, with the plethora of visual medium available, literally, at one’s fingertips, I fear that reading is starting to take a downward spiral. Why see an artist’s rendering of “Spider-Man” when you can make him do all sorts of things on your TV sets. Just another way of making the source material obsolete.
I can’t really tell if comics are going downhill or not. I myself am losing interest in the BIG EVENTS and concentrating more on the “smaller” mainstream titles like She-Hulk and Defenders. (And all of PAD’s books, of course, but I wouldn’t call those “smaller.”) Six months of tie-in books is a little much for me. I really want Superman and Wonder Woman to get back to their own storylines.
“Well yeah, except that extends to readers as well”
He said “among readers”. Good point though.
“Well yeah, except that extends to readers as well”
He said “among readers”. Good point though.
“Well yeah, except that extends to readers as well”
He said “among readers”. Good point though.
Also, just saw the nice X-Factor interview on Newsarama. Looking forward to it.
Also, just saw the nice X-Factor interview on Newsarama. Looking forward to it.
Also, just saw the nice X-Factor interview on Newsarama. Looking forward to it.
Give an 8 year old a Spider Man comic and watch his head come off his shoulders. Every story line is 6 issues so it can be packaged as a TPB. ALL Marvel characters are so lost in in convoluted, screwed up, re-writen, re-imagined, lost in concept continuity that you need one of those charts like the Russell Crow had in his garage in Beautiful Mind to follow it. How many sons and daughters from alternate universes do the X-Men have? Then a kid reads a couple issues of say Amazing and then the next month he buys Ultimate Spiderman and it’s a whole different universe. Never mind if a kid bought Captain America and then bought Ultimates and got an eye full of prìçk bášŧárd Captain America.
Then the EIC of Marvel says he thinks the 8 year old reader is a myth and doesn’t exist and then they want to get Marvel Comics into 7-11 to reach the 8 years old reader.
This company has been rudderless since Jim Shooter left.
I’m fine with the “if there’s no body, he’s not dead” school of thought. That brings a writer a way to bring back a character if he or she proves overwhelmingly popular, without it being an obvious cheat.
On the other hand, if there _is_ a body, then, as the good doctor said, “he’s _dead_, Jim.” Yes, I know the various comicbook companies want to maintain the trademark rights to their characters. Fine. Do so, but you can always have a new person in the costume. Worked fine with Wally West taking over for Barry Allen as the Flash. In fact, I like the idea of characters aging in semi-real time, like in the comic strips _Gasoline Alley_ and _For Better or For Worse_ and in Byrne’s _Generations_ Elseworlds series.
Consider, if you will, Superman’s “death” in 1992. Imagine that Supes had stayed dead, and that the Superboy clone had stepped into his shoes as the new Superman. Everyone knows he’s not the original, so he has to prove himself- to himself and to the world. Granted, DC would probably have had to sacrifice Clark Kent, but they could have kept a character called Supes; and if they’d had the guts to keep the original Kal-El/Clark Supes dead, that would have been a _major_ step forward.
Nothing against Supes, but I refer you again to the prognosis by the good Dr. McCoy. Not only was Supes dead, but they _buried_ him.
More about my thoughts about death in comicbooks (and related issues) can be found in CBG #1599, Pg. 97 (in case my mom is lurking on this board, and is eager to read everything I’ve written).
Rick
Andi (I think =)
We do act locally every Halloween. We give out comic books rather than candy to the children. It makes our house very popular and we have people coming from a couple of towns over because we give away reading material.
Kath
IN CONCORD with Andy, Jonathon Linder, and Garbonzo, and anyone else who’s handed a book or a comic to a kid:
The problem that PAD found was all too familiar to me. I teach in a small rural district, and so work with students from 4th grade to HS seniors. I try to have comics available at all levels (with the ususal censorship headaches from people who don’t read anyway).
If Marvel and DC can’t seem to market their products in the grocery stores and make them as readily available as chewing gum, we’re going to have to get more teachers and librarians to have them available.
Think globally, act locally: our neighbors are political refugees from Liberia with three boys ages 8-15. On impulse I offered them some Spidey comics that I’d bought for my classroom and the youngest started banging on the door to see if I’d remembered to pick up some more. They were shooting hoops Saturday and I walked towards them with the latest Ultimate Spidey, FF, Black Panther & Hulk etc. and they literally dropped everything and came running. It would have done your heart good to see them call back “thank you” over their shoulder because they immediately started flipping through the stack and arguing over who got to read which one first, even the oldest.
Caveat: these are kids that come from a literate background already, At work, the kids who pester me every day to see if I brought the latest issue were the kids who already read other books. (Sadly, the girls loved “Namor”, “Thor Son of Asgard” and “Emma Frost” collections but both are defunct. “Runaways” a new favorite for adolescent females here. Any hot tips for popular titles?)
Rich makes Marvel sound exactly like the pre-Crisis DC. I missed most of those books, but I like the Elseworlds idea better: keep one single continuity going in the main books, but allow your artists the ability to still do “What If” books. Marvel sounds like it’s got a few universes going, and if it hasn’t already happened, then it soon will when some writer will want to mix them in some way. Which can be fun in its own right, but does present a significant barrier to new entrants into the market.
But back on the topic at hand. I am and always have been a very vivacious reader
Thank you thank you thank you for that malapropism. Now I know exactly what I will put in my next personal ad. That’s exactly what I am seeking.
To each his or her own, of course, but I never understood this separation between “boy” and “girl” comics. I am female but even when I was a child, I hated the “girl” comics. To me, they were boring and just silly. I have always been interested in “boy” ones. As a German, my first comics I collected were “Silberpfeil” (Silver Arrow), which is a western aimed at children. Then I discovered German translations of Marvel comics. I was around 12 when I started to get the originals, which are freely available in Germany when you know where to look.
Mangas – UGH! 🙁 My husband likes Mangas but they just put me off. I find them extremely sexist. I often leave when he puts them on, I just can`t bear to watch them. They are also often extremely violent, unnecessarily so. Not to mention that I find the extreme style of huge eyes and piggy bank lips extremely ugly.
Quite a few people were mentioning how they think comics (and other stories) could become more attractive so that more people buy them. Speaking for myself, if Spider-Man and his wife become separated again for whatever reason, I will most probably drop the comic. I came back to Spider-Man because I enjoy that pairing immensely and because I like what JMS is doing with the character. Without that, I wouldn`t have ventured further and also subscribed “Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man”.
What would be worse is if PAD would really kill off Calhoun and/or Shelby in NF for good. To me, they ARE NF and irreplaceable. I am nearly 100 % sure, I would stop buying the books – and I am saying that although they are my favourite books nowadays.
What I am saying is, killing off regular and/or otherwise very popular characters is a very dangerous thing to do and therefore it should only be done if there is a VERY good reason for it. There are numerous other opportunities and ways to create drama. Me personally, I find it much more satisfying and interesting to see how a person survives, deals with what happened and how if affects others. It is much better to allow a good character to grow and evolve instead of sacrificing him or her in a death story that leaves maybe a touching funeral and speeches, some aftermath – and then life goes on. Me as a reader, I don`t find this appealing at all and it also offers much less new or thought provoking. As I keep saying, there is a lot of room between everything is well and being dead. Let the hero suffer and struggle but killing him off is something that should really be the big exception of the rule if it is done at all.
It is better than the vast majority of resurrection stories, too.
I read comics religiously from Junior High through college. X-Men, Avengers, Thor – the usual suspects (Walt Simonson’s Thor has to be my all-time favorite run of ANY series – sorry PAD).
Anyway, I gave them up in the early-mid 90s. Part of it was the industry: after the twice-a-month, 4-different-cover X-men, kill Superman marketing ploy, etc. I got turned off. Also, the reasons PAD mentions above: finances. I started a family, had lots of school debt to pay off, etc. I realized I didn’t have money to go and burn each and every month indefinitely. Since I quit the monthly reading of the titles, I think I’ve picked up maybe a dozen individual issues. I doubt I’ll ever go back to regular reading.
My daughter is 11. She’s not much of a reader, which we’d like to change. She’s a good reader and she enjoys it when she does it, but she doesn’t pick up books on her own most of the time. She’d rather play with dolls or watch DVDs. Even the Harry Potter books don’t make much of a dent – she’d rather wait for the movies.
Peter,
The continuity problem is what ended my obsession with comics. I first started collecting when I was 10 years old,and would read every detail in the comic from the editor’s notes to the letters page. If the stories were interesting it made me want to find out what else I has missed, so I would go and buy the issues mentioned in either the notes or by other readers on the letters page. I loved marvel because the continuity seemed so tight. Characters had to have at least some attempt of a logical explanation between events. It was addicting. The marvel universe seemed like one big on-going story. Not anymore. No more footnotes, no more need to check to see if the story jibes with has gone on before. Now Bruce Banner did go to medical school, wolverine after being called “Logan” for years is now “James”, Nick Fury is re-created and is now black, why notjust create a whole new character?
Even your recent Hulk/Abomination story left me saying, “huh?”. No foot notes to refer to what issue that Dr. Samson & Emil meet or even between what issues. Is this totally new information or is it a recon of a previous story? Emil & Doc Samson exchanged e-mail? I didn’t think they had e-mail when these charcaters first appeared. The story would have been more interesting if it could have been placed into the context of existing Hulk history.
Well, that’s my gripe. Thanks for reading.
I agree strongly with the segment of the gallery — Robert Rhodes, Thomas E. Reed, etc. — who hhave suggested that the barrier to expanding comics readership is primarily in distribution. [And a wave to garbonzo, as I’m also based in Portland….]
Interestingly, back in my college days (early 1980s), you could in fact find comics in your local 7-11 or similar convenience store on a reasonably reliable basis. Which was actually where I started reading comics consistently, though I’d been watching comics-related TV shows for a long while before that.
But that stopped being true some years back — due largely, I suspect, to the collapse of the “Independent Distributor” network that supplied not just comics, but magazines and mass market paperback books to 7-11s, supermarkets, and other retailers outside the main bookselling/publishing channels. [This is a discussion of long standing in the SF/F writing and publishing community.]
Now, it’s not 100% true that you can’t find comics in supermarkets these days. The large distributors that have swallowed up the ID channel still handle a very small volume of comics — so that in, say, Fred Meyer (a large regional grocery/department store chain here in the Northwest), there will be one endcap of comics in a cluster of eight or ten rows of mass market paperbacks. But the selection of those comics is highly erratic, tilted strongly toward media tie-in and young kids’ material, and there’s no way for a reader to pick up the same title every month on a regular basis. Interestingly, the mix I’ve seen has included Dark Horse titles — virtually all Buffy or Star Wars — a selection of Marvel material, and an increasingly small handful of DC material (emphasis on Cartoon Network kids’ titles and a few DC-animated universe books).
What I think comics publishers need is a way around the existing ID channel into mainstream retail outlets — 7-11 again, yes, but maybe also the video chains (Hollywood, Blockbuster) and game/software outlets (the Babbages/EBX combine).
@Kathleen:
Great idea! I hope many comic book fans are picking up your strategy. Well, we don’t celebrate Halloween in Germany, but I work spare time as an English tutor for kids who struggle with their English classes in school and since a few months I’m using American comicbooks (Ultimate Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Sentinel) to make my students read English material. And it’s an overall success. They even read more than I expect them to do every week.
But back on the topic at hand. I am and always have been a very vivacious reader
Thank you thank you thank you for that malapropism. Now I know exactly what I will put in my next personal ad. That’s exactly what I am seeking.
Hmmm. And what word did I misuse?
One last thought–I’ve noticed kind of a disturbing trend among those who read and those who don’t. Everyone seems to want to closely guard what they like and never venture into anything new.
I’m not sure what “closely guard” means in this case apart from resisting change, but I can certainly speak to the “never venture into anything new” part.
One of the things that is almost guaranteed to get me to try out a new-to-me author (or musician, for that matter) is a personal connection. I picked up a couple of Harry Turtledove novels after seeing him speak at a Loscon. I happened to teach mystery writer Robert Crais’ daughter (not having a clue who he was) about a decade ago, and wound up not only buying everything he’s ever written, but giving copies as gifts to various people as well. I’ve lost track of the number of singers we’ve started following who we saw as opening acts for Dar Williams. (If you’ve never heard Dar’s stuff, go forth and change that. Now.)
At least in my case, I think the main thing keeping me from always looking for something new is just inertia. Some people have a pile of unread books by their bed; I have two bookshelves’ full.
Peter’s right that there’s some basic conservatism (of the non-political variety) at work in most fans, myself no doubt included, but I’d like to think it’s not JUST that.
Mark:
I read comics religiously from Junior High through college. X-Men, Avengers, Thor – the usual suspects (Walt Simonson’s Thor has to be my all-time favorite run of ANY series – sorry PAD).
Given our clash last time we met on a thread here, I’m happy to agree with that last sentiment wholeheartedly. Walt’s Thor was lightning in a bottle. That early-to-mid-’80s period was a really solid time for Marvel, though: you had Byrne on FF, Walt on Thor, Peter on Spectacular, Roger Stern on Spider-Man and Avengers … hëll, even DeFalco succeeding Stern on Amazing Spider-Man, which is about the only sustained run DeFalco’s had that I ever liked.
I never quit buying monthlies the way you did, but the early-to-mid ’90s saw me pruning a lot. I think there was a brief period when I was down to only two Marvels a month — Peter’s Hulk and Kurt Busiek’s Untold Tales of Spider-Man. (Lots of other books, though, many of them Vertigo.)
With a 1-year-old and a new house, it’s possible that finances are going to force us to cut comics way back or out, but I’m hopeful we can avoid that. I’m looking forward to being able to let Katherine read things like Bone or Leave It to Chance (or Owly, of more recent stuff), just for starters.
On PAD’s Fallen Angel “whuzzat?” story — believe me, I sympathize, but I really don’t know that the problem there can be laid primarily at the readers’ door. I think DC did a lousy job marketing it from the get-go. I knew about it because I hang out here (and because the people running my then-LCS are good comics geeks and knew your stuff well), but I’m not surprised it didn’t make its way into fan consciousness.
If the Spike one-shot for IDW does well (and the publicity you got for it in TV Guide bodes well), with luck that’ll draw a lot of people over to the relaunch.
TWL
But back on the topic at hand. I am and always have been a very vivacious reader
Thank you thank you thank you for that malapropism. Now I know exactly what I will put in my next personal ad. That’s exactly what I am seeking.
Hmmm. And what word did I misuse?
You meant “voracious”, as in “eagerly consuming”. “Vivacious” means “spirited” or “lively”, which makes for an interesting mental image, but from context isn’t what you were after…
Nope. I stand by what I said. Voracious may have been a more appropriate word to use, but vivacious is perfectly acceptable. Google “vivacious reader” and you will find many people describing themselves and others as such, including Ken Follet:
“Without books I would not have become a vivacious reader, and if you are not a reader you are not a writer.”
“I think we should give the 7 year old a pass. Kids that young don’t really read anything.”
My five-year-old and his collection of Captain Underpants books (hey, it’s superheroes, that’s close enough) would disagree.
😉
Anyway, I haven’t read all the messages in this discussion yet, but one of the things that annoys me about the comic book industry today is the lack of new-reader-friendly titles. Aside from the Justice League comic based on the animated show, I can’t think of a mainstream superhero title that I can easily find and toss at a budding reader to hook ’em. DC’s animated Superman and Batman titles were a great idea, IMO, and Marvel had their Star Comics line from the ’80s, but these days? Pfffle.
I’ll gladly buy comics for my kid as soon as the big two start making comics I can buy for my kid.
–R.J.
Google “vivacious reader” and you will find many people describing themselves and others as such, including Ken Follet:
I’m with OtherJonathan here — first of all, a hair over 100 results for “vivacious reader” on Google strikes me as very low considering the size of the Internet (I get more hits than that Googling my name!), and second, it’s clear from a look at the context in which the phrase is used that a sizeable percentage of the users are in fact confusing “vivacious” with “voracious”.
As a malapropism, “vivacious reader” is clever; as straight description, I think it severely stretches credibility.
“Aside from the Justice League comic based on the animated show, I can’t think of a mainstream superhero title that I can easily find and toss at a budding reader to hook ’em. DC’s animated Superman and Batman titles were a great idea, IMO, and Marvel had their Star Comics line from the ’80s, but these days? Pfffle.”
Well, for what it’s worth, that was the mandate for “Young Justice.” To write a team book that would skew young, pull in younger readers and serve as a feeder book to “Teen Titans.”
That’s what I wrote. That’s what DC wanted. And then they canceled it, apparently deciding that they preferred the idea of “Teen Titans Go!” being the feeder book into “Teen Titans.” Actually, the editor of TTG wanted me to write for it…but then she was fired, as was the case with just about every other DC editor I’ve ever worked with, so that never happened.
PAD
Vivacious reader sounds like something Mike Tyson would say. And that’s not really a compliment.
And the definition of “gay” was “happy” until a sizeable percentage of users decided otherwise. You say potato…
But, hey, if you want to nitpick, go for it.
People have to remember, kids don’t read comics, teens do. That should be the target audience for “jump on point” books. You can’t expect a 7-year-old to read the comics because
1)he probably has no money
2)he probably hates reading
3)most comics have overly complex storylines and subplots from 50 issues before and that is too much for most kids to handle.
4)he is probably under the ideas that elementary school kids have that now that they’re in school they’re grown up and have to give up their kiddie things (with the exception of comic book movies which seem to be mature, unlike the comics they’re based on.)
Trying to get a teenager into comics is always easier. Trust me, being one and having gotten many of my friends into comics i know. This is so because by the time one’s a teenager they’ve developed their own voice and personality which can be used to get them into comics. If they’re goth give them vertigo titles, if the prefer fantasy then give them Top Cow and Aspen, if they’re religious give them PAD’s Supergirl run. Not saying that you shouldn’t try getting kids into comics, but its a lot easier to hook the teens (especially since they actually have their own money.)
-Lawrence
Wolfman, last I checked (30 seconds ago) “gay” still could mean happy. The fact that it can also be used to mean homosexual doesn’t change the fact that vivacious only has one definition, that being “lively in temper, conduct, or spirit : SPRIGHTLY”
Explain to me what it means to be a vivacious reader? If you mean you read in a sprightly manner, then explain to me what that means. That you read happily?
Because the sense that I get is that people are meaning to say they are voracious readers, but don’t realize they are using the wrong word. Which is something Tyson does a lot of. And gets a lot of ridocule aimed at him for it, as it shows a gleeful lack of vocabulary.
It’s not me saying poTAYto, and you saying poTAHto…it’s me saying potato, and you saying limestone, with you trying to tell me that limestone = potato just because some other people are using it that way.
The talk of continuity makes me wonder about the relative lengths of the various ages of comics – you know, your Silver Age, Golden Age, etc. The current age we’re in, how long has it been going on? I know most of these ages were not clearly began and ended with a single event, but could it be time to move on from certain things? I’ve read comics off and on since I was little, and collect about 6 titles regularly, plus probably a varying but close number of miniseries and one-shots each month. One, yeah, it costs a little too much; these books should be about $2, and if that’s not enough to cover production costs, maybe the publishers need to think about going to a lower, yet more affordable quality. If you want to keep collectors, then keep the glossy acetate-blah-blah-blah. If you want to get new readers, especially kids, then go back to something like the 80’s or the quality of paper in say a Harry Potter book; the smart retailer will remember to recommend the bag & board to keep the comic safe from the ravages of time. Think about that: your average comic book is made with materials that will last a lot longer than your average paperback, yet which theoretically should be designed to be around for quite a while?
There are never guarantees with digital copies. It’s why I’m still hesitant to use iTunes, and am thoroughly disgusted with my experiences with MLB.com.
Can’t speak towards MLB.com…but I have had success burning CDs with tunes I’ve downloaded from ITunes…and those CDs will last awhile, even with repeated us. And I don’t know what the deal with Walmart is, but I can play an ITunes song 2 seconds after it’s been downloaded.
Actually, Jason, there are a handful of DC titles that are right at that $2 mark, at least after the 10% discount I get for putting a title on hold at my LCD. But unfortunately, they seem to be the exception.
Does anyone know of anywhere online one can go for brief plot summaries for issues of major comic book titles?
I’m thinking along the lines of the Soap Opera Digest columns in newspapers (if those are still done…I never read them, but remember seeing them.)
These would make it so much easier to collect just one title — and still follow the plot line — what with all the crossovers DC and Marvel loves.
Google “vivacious reader” and you will find many people describing themselves and others as such, including Ken Follet:
Last post on this digression — in this case, to correct an error of fact. Noted author Ken Follett did not use the phrase “vivacious reader”; the original quote can be found on his Web site, here, and says “voracious”. (Note that all instances of the misquoted version also misspell the author’s last name, which is what prompted me to check further.)
Confession: At age 30, I’ve only really been into comics for the last few years. Before that, I’d tried a few graphic novels. That changed a few years ago, when I got hooked by FABLES, FALLEN ANGEL and ALIAS (Bendis, not Jennifer Garner).
My son, age 6, adores superheroes. He watches all the movies. I got him a few comics at Free Comic Book Day because they were definitely uber-safe, being reprints from a zillion years ago. He loved them, not understanding the stories in the slightest. He doesn’t quite read yet, but he loves flipping through my “Wonder Woman: Spirit of Truth” book.
The problem is, most of the comics I see are not appropriate for him. Not just violence or sexuality, but a complexity of storyline that is obviously intended for teens or adults. This is not a bad thing – it’s great for us! – but it won’t hook a six-year-old.
How to hook those young kids? Write for them. Make the stories kid-safe, about issues they understand. Make them relatively self-contained for kids who a) can’t afford or b) don’t have transportation to the local comic shop on a regular basis. Remember that kids can’t drive? And all the comic shops in my area, at least, are on busy highways in major shopping/retail areas, far away from any kid’s area of bicyclage.
My young niece, age 8, reads Archie comics. I’d absolutely love to get her hooked on a truly kickass heroine, someone to help counteract the Barbie and Bratz influence in her very pink life. Where is the young Buffy of comic books, minus the gore?
No, that’s a real question. I hope some here will recommend young-people comics that we can buy our children. Nothing would make me happier than to hook them on the graphic world.
P.S. I’ve read Fleming, though any relationship between his books and the movies is at best coincidental. Hey, I even tried to read Tom Clancy, and escaped with my sanity intact.
Given our clash last time we met on a thread here, I’m happy to agree with that last sentiment wholeheartedly.
Tim – no problems here. We can disagree politically and still have the same hobbies. And if I get a little hot headed from time to time, well, I suppose I can always use the catch-all Trek phrase: I’m only human.
With a 1-year-old and a new house, it’s possible that finances are going to force us to cut comics way back or out, but I’m hopeful we can avoid that.
Well, you’ve got one advantage: you are a lot more established in life and career when you started with the kids – we started right away on all of it – while still trying to retire debt.
I’ve got the money now to pick up on comics again if I wanted to, I just don’t have the desire. Like one reader above mentioned, after a while, all the retcons get old. Comics are very much like soap operas: you have to commit to them nearly 100% to keep up or else you get bored very quickly.
The stuff I pick up to read/listen to these days are easy, quick novels(a Trek novel or Harry Potter, for example), or sometimes history (I’ve picked up a fascinating audio book on the Civil War recently) or philosophy/ethics (yes, I enjoy Plato and Aristotle).
I wonder if you could have a comic book on Socrates?
as for good children’s comics, my 4-yr old niece likes Teen Titans Go and Batman Adventures (her parents read them to her).
i’d also recommend Usagi Yojimbo for kids 7 and up. it’s violent, but i think the violence is treated in a pretty non-objectionable way. it’s also one of the best books out there.