Let’s time, from this moment, how long it takes to find an article where the Downing Street Memo is referred to as “Downingate.”
PAD
Let’s time, from this moment, how long it takes to find an article where the Downing Street Memo is referred to as “Downingate.”
PAD
• 
“Yeah, Ice Cube just did a cover of Smelo, tovaritshi v’ nogu Slavnoe More, Sviashchennyj Baikal (“With Duty And Perseverance We will Increase Our Tractor Output”).”
Dude, that cut was so tight. It was the shizzle.
“Knowing is half the battle”
It was a tag line for GI-Joe…America’s Elite anti-terrorist squad!
What I find most distasteful about the situation entire is how supporters of the War on Terror (TM & Copyright 2001 George W. Bush) justify Gitmo. The “criminals” inside aren’t representatives of any one country, ergo they are not POWs but rather “illegal enemy combatants” and cannot be covered by the laws of the Geneva Convention, and therefore we as a country can do whatever the hëll we want to them–beat them, torture them, keep them indefinitely, pi$$ on their religious texts, because the higher-ups have convinced a majority of Americans some catastrophic attack will happen the moment we let even one of said prisoners out. The culture of paranoia just keeps feeding itself. The Bush snake is eating its own tail–vicious cycle, Pandora’s Box, what have you. Scary stuff–if we close Gitmo, then yeah, there may be a greater chance of more attacks, but if we keep it open, the risk is equally great of new attacks because we’re keeping it open and keeping it as an “example” where everyone can see it and where foreign powers and terrorist groups can use it as a shining example of the great white devil. Either way, we pretty much lose.
~G.
Crap, you got me Bill. I thought your inclusion of “unAmerican” was arbitrary, but I see where Laura brought it in. Withdrawn.
It’s cool. This thread is moving so fast I swear I hit the reload button twice in 1 minute and it seemed like a dozen new posts popped up.
Honestly, Bill, I haven’t had this sort of discussion, with people occupying both sides of the fence, that actually remained civil in WAY too long. It’s rather satisfying. Even if those crazy right-wing pro-torture whackjobs are totally wrong.
JOKE, it’s a joke. I’m joking. Please, if you throw anything, I insist you only throw full beer bottles, preferably something from the Brooklyn Brewery or Harpoon (if you’re on the East Coast). Some Thomas Høøkër or Great Lakes would be swell also.
I’ve always said that with the exception of a few losers who have more or less gotten themselves booted off this blog, I’d gladly share a beer or beverage of choice with anyone here.
My nephew is now actually in charge of designing some micro-brew beers–Arik the red and the new brown ale Arik the Bold. Unfortunately, you have to be in California to enjoy it. My father, a beer expert, tells me that Brooklyn Brewery is indeed a fine choice.
(Actually, I’m not much of a drinker though I do subscribe to Ben Franklin’s theory that Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.:)
What’s the name of the brewery? My wife’s from the Bay Area, so I make it down there from Seattle now and again. And your father is absolutely correct. My tastes tend to West Coast brewers (stylistically there are differences, believe it or not), but Brooklyn Black Chocolate Stout is one of the finest beers I’ve ever had the pleasure to try.
It seems to me that such a requirement might make an undue burden on some smaller pharmacies that don’t have the warehouses to stock every conceivable medicine known to man (or woman).
A warehouse isn’t needed. Medicines come in bottles of a couple hundred each, whick can be stored in the back room, & re-ordered when the supply runs low/out
A pious pharmacist would have the exact same right to inflict their opinions on the customer, as does a pious bookseller.
No, because many people are on a medical or perscription plan, and cannot just “go somewhere else”.
Since this was arguably a deception, perhaps we should call it the Downing Front..
(The pun *is* the most fundamental form of wit.)
What’s the name of the brewery? My wife’s from the Bay Area, so I make it down there from Seattle now and again. And your father is absolutely correct. My tastes tend to West Coast brewers (stylistically there are differences, believe it or not), but Brooklyn Black Chocolate Stout is one of the finest beers I’ve ever had the pleasure to try.
He’s one of the resident Brew Masters at Brew It Up in Sacramento. This place sounds great (never been there myself, sorry to say). You can go in and work with the guys there to brew your own special batch, bottle it, lable it. Very popular with bachelor parties–imagine the look on your buddies faces when you whip out a 6-pack of Raymond Burr’s Nipple Rouge Stout–For the blush of springtime anytime
Ask for RJ Kappler!
My dad sees your Brooklyn Black Chocolate Stout and asks if you’ve tried Keegan Ale Mother’s Milk.
Frankly it sounds like the two of you belong to some cult. 🙂 The Keegan company is just down the street from my parent’s house where I’m spending the summer so I may have to check this madness out.
Ok,a couple more things to think about:
If the war on terror is supposed to end, as BushCo has said, because we’re holding the people at Gitmo until the war on terror is over….
And the people we’re holding are so dang dangerous we can’t let them go until the war on terror is over…
What do we do with them when it ends? If we let them go, they’re gonna become terrorists and the whole war has to start over again! So the only thing to do is either hold them until they die, or kill them. Seriously, what do we do?
Oh and everyone keeps saying we’re going to be attacked again so I’m wondering…how many times were we attacked by foreign terrorists befoer 9/11? Seems to me, if we’re in so much danger we would’ve been attacked long before and more often before then.The odds of being killed in a terrorist attack on US soil is less than getting hit by lightning. Heck, it’s less than dying in a car crash.
Oh and to quote Uncle from Jackie Chan…One more thing! Anyone ever think that all BushCo has done is give Osama what he wanted? A holy war and he managed to make us less free?
Michael
P.S. Make sure to watch Sensenbrenner’s meltdown!
I’ll accept the Pharmacist as Employee argument. All employees must accept the decisions of the boss.
But I see nothing wrong with a chain of pharmacies that refused to sell what they viewed as immoral medicines. Any medicine that is prescribed is prescribed by a doctor — and the doctor would direct the patient to the nearest pharmacy that carried the medicine.
No matter how many bottles come in a box, and no matter hos large the back room, there is a finite amount of space in that back room, and a finite number of boxes that can be stored, and thus a finite number of medicines.
Bill: I have not heard of it, but I’ll be heading out to the East Coast in August, and will be dámņ certain to get my mitts on it. My sister is moving to Boston, so it shouldn’t be that difficult. I’m really looking forward to getting my hands on some legendary non-West Coast stuff like Great Lakes, Church Brew Works, Keegan’s (now, never heard of them before today), Harpoon, etc.
“extremist over the top language like Durbins“
What is extremist or over the top about Durbin’s language?!??? Did you even read it?!???
He spoke the simple, plain truth. If you read the FBI agent’s report without knowing who or where the abuse took place, you would NOT conclude that Americans had committed such atrocities, but you would think you were reading about Nazis or something. That is not over the top, it’s the truth.
“Laura believes that to critisize Mr Durbin is to be absolutely pro-torture.”
No. To criticize those particular comments that Durbin made makes you pro-torture, because all that Durbin said is that torture is bad, and it’s sick that it’s us doing it. How exactly is that a crazy position? Do you disagree that torture is bad and that America should not be doing it? If that’s crazy, I never want to be “sane” like you.
To Knuckles-
You’re right! My GOD America is an awful country. I don’t see how you can live here. All the people that like America must be crazy. It’s best to always focus on the negative! And always proclaim loudly that you LOVE America more than anyone. That will throw them off. Right on, Knuckles!
— X-Ray
“Man, I can’t even BEGIN to discuss your point with you.
me: “How can you say he said it for shock value?”
you: “He said it for shock value because I say he said it for shock value.”
That’s your OPINION, not to be confused with the facts.”
I said it was for shock value because the use of such comparisons is sensationalistic language. How does that need explaining?
I realize I’m not in the little PAD clique here, but for the love of God (I can say that here, right?) don’t you people think beyond your own ideological boxes?
Such language is not appropriate nor even remotely factual; has no basis in fact — panties on the head, psychological stress, crap filled pants be dámņëd, the US troops are NOT comparable to Nazis, Gulag guards, or Pol Pot. That’s not opinion — it’s common sense.
HE is the one confused with facts, as are you if you somehow think he is justified in slapping thousands of soldiers in the face like that.
Regardless of whether or not I agree with the morality of what is going on in Gitmo, his … oh for fûçk’s sake forget it. I’m going to go find a wall. It’ll be more productive AND entertaining.
Bush may very well have fûçkëd up, but this incessent harping on an existing problem will do nothing but further divide the country into terms set forth by dumb šhìŧ radio jocks and politicians whose sole purpose is money/ratings and votes.
If this douchebag Senator actually cared about what was going on he would’ve introduced his problems intelligently. Instead, all he’s done is get people’s back up and look at me playing right into it …
I think I’ll go change the world instead.
Thanks.
Small point of interest to me, most people are dissatisfied with a persin IN the system, as opposed to the system itself. “Rumsfeld is f*ckin’ up, X would be doing a better job.” Not trying to take a side here, just something I’m noticing.
“But perhaps the gulag isn’t the best place to rock like a huricane.”
Especially when said gulag is in the Caribbean.
Hey, there’s an idea. We’re in hurricane season right now. What if a big one came up and smashed the living hëll out of Gitmo, and either all the detainees survived and all the soldiers died, or vice versa? Or everybody died? Or everybody lived? I think that’d create some very interesting theological questions for both sides.
Bill, Knuckles —
Ever have Moose Drool or Trout Slayer?
Or Henry Weinhardt’s?
Henry’s is from the pac nw, while the others are from the Montana area…. quite good stuff. I’m personally attached to Trout Slayer. Mmmmm… one more reason to go back to Montana.
Oh, and the one time I went to SF, I really enjoyed their brews. Definitely better than Oklahoma’s…
Travis
Its all Bûllšhìŧ. Only reason we are in the middle east is to secure our oil needs. We just moved before China. I wish bush had said “We just want to make sure no other country can blackmail us for our oil needs.” Investing in alternative fuel sources is best, it seems that the current government prefers status quo. Picking up where his dad left off and furthering Reagans ideals.
If we invest in military build ups all we will get is war. Dont hand me current Republican crap about how the middle east is learning freedom the ends dont justify the means. I wish our troops where home making families going to school and not in a desert being shot at.
Please excuse the grammer.
John, if our only interest in Iraq had been securing the oil reserves, it could have been done more simply, more cheaply, and without sacrificing our world standing, by simply dropping previous administrations’ dislike of Saddam and showering him with cash again.
No, the only way this makes any kind of sense is when you remember that Dubya seems to be desperate to prove to somebody – I’m not sure who – that he’s a real Mister Macho Texas Man. Among other things, that means he cain’t let nobody get away with threatenin’ his daddy. Nossir, he hadda go stomp a mudhole in this Sáddámņ fella’s ášš, jest like a Real Man oughta!
Oh, sure, thousands had to die on both sides to assuage Dubya’s wounded machismo, but that’s a small price to pay to prove he’s a Real Man, right?
Right?
Me
“Laura believes that to critisize Mr Durbin is to be absolutely pro-torture.”
Laura
No. To criticize those particular comments that Durbin made makes you pro-torture, because all that Durbin said is that torture is bad, and it’s sick that it’s us doing it. How exactly is that a crazy position?
Laura, either your reading comprehension skills are lacking or, and I’m trying hard to be generous here, you are letting your passions totaly get in the way of any semblance or reason. I have stated over and over again that Durbin’s rhetoric-bringing the nazis, pol pot, the gulags into the discussion–is counterproductive to his cause. You may disagree with that but if you do try to remember what it is that you are disagreeing with. Trying to claim that I am pro-torture makes you look like a petulant child.
Do you disagree that torture is bad and that America should not be doing it?
Well, let’s see…I’ve stated that “Personally, I think there should be a great deal of oversite on the conditions of Gitmo and torture should not be a part of our arsenal.” and “Of course, I DON’T agree that the behavior described by the FBI agent is acceptable,”. Reading, Laura. Try it.
If that’s crazy, I never want to be “sane” like you.
I’m pretty sure you’re safe.
Troll-Ray: Who’s focusing on the negative? I’m criticizing it in the expectation that we, as Americans, will try to turn it into a positive. You, on the other hand, seem to be celebrating the negative. That’s your gig, Peaches. Do what you will.
Travis: Henry’s doesn’t qualify as a craft beer by any stretch of the imagination. Henry’s has been around since the mid 19th Century, based out of Oregon. They merged with Blitz in the 60’s, as I recall, and I don’t know if they are still independent or owned by one of the big three (SABMiller, AB or CoorsMolson). But if you’ve got to drink an adjunct lager, and you can’t find any Rainier around, I’d go with that.
Big Sky Brewing makes some really good beers, and my dad is with you on the Moose Drool. I personally don’t care for it, but I do love their Oatmeal Stout and their Scapegoat IPA.
This TroutSlayer you refer to, I’ve not had either. That is, however, from one of my favorite Montana breweries, Bayern. Their hefeweizen is spectacular, and their schwarzbier is absolutely stellar. The brewmaster/owner there is actually a German brewmeister, born and raised in Bavaria. They make one of two genuine Bavarian-style Hefeweizens I’ve ever had in the states Baron Brewing in Seattle making the other).
I lived in Montana for about five years in the mid -90’s, and had plenty of opportunities to drink their great beers. I would still have to give the Best in State award to Pig’s Úš Porter from Harvest Moon. Great stuff. Honorable mention goes to the Irish Stout from Montana Brewing in Billings, and pretty much anything from Sleeping Giant in Helena. Sadly, my favorite brewery in MT was Big Hole Brewing(their Headstrong Pale Ale was a magnificent exercise in a true British style pale), but those yahoos sold the brewery and started having their product contract brewed. Ðámņ them.
And as Bill knows, I disagree with him on the notion of Durbin discrediting his argument by bringing comparisons of Pol Pot, Nazis, etc. Yet somehow we’ve managed to continue to dialog. I don’t think he’s saying “Torture is a-ok by me, jack, as long as I don’t know about it.” I happen to think that Durbin’s comparisons are apt, and a reasonable response from an American citizen when learning about such occurrences. He doesn’t. There you go.
Under normal circumstances I’d save the keystrokes, but I can’t pass up this opportunity: Bush sucks.
But I see nothing wrong with a chain of pharmacies that refused to sell what they viewed as immoral medicines.
I think you’re confused.
This isn’t a case of pharmacies refusing to stock medicines, immoral or otherwise.
This is, right now, all about individuals who refuse to do their jobs.
And about moronic states giving pharmacists the right to give customers the finger when said customers have a legal right to get those prescriptions.
“I have stated over and over again that Durbin’s rhetoric-bringing the nazis, pol pot, the gulags into the discussion–is counterproductive to his cause.”
Very well. This is the main point we disagree on. You think that stating the truth is counterproductive. I think that telling it like it is was something that Democrats, and politicians in general, have been lacking for quite awhile. Durbin’s statements IN MY OPINION are not over-the-top, because I read the same report from the FBI agent and thought exactly the same thing: How on earth can this be America doing this? It sounds like something Hitler or Saddam would be doing, not America.
It’s about time someone started speaking the truth instead of pussy-footing around the subject. You seem to think that we should be politely disagreeing. I strongly disagree with you. Torture is wrong, and we should be raising holy hëll to let the general public know what is going on. The only reason anyone thinks Durbin’s remarks are over-the-top is because the Republican hate machine immediately geared into action to misrepresent what he said. I think Democrats should respond by shouting his exact words from the rooftops (in a metaphorical sense).
We cannot win the fight against tyrants by being polite. We have to show the country what we are up against. If the Bush Administration is using tactics that any person with any sense of decency would recognize as belonging to sick regimes like Nazis and Pol Pot, then WE NEED TO SAY IT. Staying silent or being polite is not going to help. You fight torturers with the truth, not with being over-cautious.
Only reason we are in the middle east is to secure our oil needs.
It’s more than that. Oil is a big part of it, but it’s about power & profit.
Just oil & defense contracts alone are generating BILLIONS of dollars of profits. That doesn’t include the money being spent to house & feed our troopps, to rebuild the infrastructure, or money lost to corruption.
It’s also about power. Most of this administration are members of a group called ‘Project For A New American Century’. In short, they want to build an American empire in the middle east, using Iraq as a starting point & expanding outward from there.
And one last comment before I shut up. By claiming that Durbin’s statement is over-the-top, you’ve let the Republicans once again frame the debate. This should NOT be a debate about Durbin, who only spoke some words. This should be a debate about the Bush Administration, who have ordered the torture, sometimes to death, of people who have never been charged with a crime.
Which offense is worse? Rhetoric designed to get people’s attention, or murder?
“The only reason anyone thinks Durbin’s remarks are over-the-top is because the Republican hate machine immediately geared into action to misrepresent what he said.”
Aaaagh! So close! You almost had me cheering for a moment there, Laura.
No, it’s not the only reason. That’s why even some Democrats disagreed with it. That’s why the ADL condemned it. That’s why Durbin himself made a semi-apology on friday (Not a real apology, just the old “If anyone was offended I regret it” sort of thing, which is as good as it gets these days.)
Although I usually vote with the Evil Republican Hate Machine I’m smart enough to A-gladly vote for a better candidate from another party (ie Democrat) and B- recognize that if the republicans hold ALL the cards for too long they will become corrupt (yes, yes, I know, some of you think they are already there). So I want the Democrats to get stronger. But if they keep going down the road of paranoid over the top craziness…well, look what happened on thursday: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/17/AR2005061701249_pf.html
Briefly, John Conyers, nut, organized a circle jerk forum to publicize the Downing Street Memo (minutes). At least one witness linked 0/11 to Israel, claimed that the towers were blown up by demolition inside them and some activists passed out anti-semetic literature.
Dean, to his credit, condemned this but you have to feel that the damage has been done. I don’t think that downinggate will maount to anything but now it also has the tinge of bigotry attached to it.
When you begin to substitute wishful thinking and shoot for the moon unified field conspiricy angles for an actual search for the truth you will end up with no support outside of the black helicopter crowds. The Democrats need to give Conyers and Durbin the hook and get the big guns out. Fast.
I, for one, hate George Bush for his freedom!
My gripe with Durbin’s comments is simple, they are blatantly wrong.
And, since I am an Illinois voter, unless Durbin apologizes for his remarks, I’ll take my action where it counts — at the ballot box next election.
This discussion (well, the not-friendly-beer-discussion part; overall, this has managed to be a pretty fun thread:) ) demonstrates the problem with hyperbolic statements. Laura is against torture; Bill is against torture. But instead of being able to be united in thier outrage at this abuse, they’ve been caught up in debate over the language of outrage.
Personally, I lean much more toward Laura’s political inclinations than Bill’s (though I’ll join the list of people who’ve saluted Bill for his intelligent, open-minded, and polite commentary over the months [years?]). But, I agree that Durbin went too far in comparing Gitmo to Nazi Germany. The systematic imprisonment and GENOCIDE implimented by the Nazi regime is such an extreme (if not quite unique, unfortunately) atrocity that it should be used as a simile only for similar mass, genocidal action. As Bill pointed out, and as demonstrated here, invoking this particular image only serves to obfuscate the true issue, the abhorent actions apparently being undertaken in the name of – but wholly against the spirit of – the United States against prisoners in our custody. These actions do need to be halted, but invoking that most horrific of modern metaphors is a counter-productive mistake, which Durbin should remove from the discussion so that the true problem may be concentrated on and stopped, not easily lost in a firestorm over (probably) well-meaning but overly extreme language.
Luke, it’s you who should be saluted, for all the good points you raise (and not just the nice things you said about me, though greatly appreciated 🙂 )
There’s a whole other threads worth of discussion on just what SHOULD be done with genuine Al quaeda types and one actually could bring the Nazis into the discussion. For example, imprisoning Hess for life in Spandou prison–on what grounds, other than his being one of Hitler’s top henchmen (which, mind you, is reason enough for me). By that logic, some of these guys will never be released–especially when compounded by the fact that, unlike Hess, they could actually be dangerous if released.
Of course, the reality of imprisoning people for life for membership in an organization has tremedous abuse potential. Then again, so does imprisoning people for any reason but it sometimes has to be done. So…
There’s also the ever underestimated cover your ášš element–imagine if a released Gitmo prisoner shows up on the next suicide mission. Heads would role…safer by far to let them cool their heels in Cuba, if you are the one who has to make such decisions.
You know, I’ve seen threads that had absolutely nothing to do with my original blog entry, but this one is certainly the lengthiest.
Still, Russ…I’m just curious about the following:
“My gripe with Durbin’s comments is simple, they are blatantly wrong.”
So can I assume that you’ve actually read the report and that in your informed opinion, the torture tactics being used are NOT tactics that would have been at home in totalitarian, fascist, or downright evil regimes?
Because that’s all Durbin said. Any sane reading of it proves that. So I’m curious as to your informed opinion as to where that’s not true.
PAD
These actions do need to be halted, but invoking that most horrific of modern metaphors is a counter-productive mistake,
The problem I see is that, if somebody doesn’t make such metaphors and use such hyperbole, nobody seems to give a rat’s ášš.
It will probably take alot more people calling Gitmo a gulag than have done so already to force the Bush Administration to change the way they’re running things down there.
Because, regardless of how or if these guys are being tortured, many of them have been held, without charges, for years!
Hello? What the fûçk happened to justice in this country, much less the desire to promote torture?
The Bush Administration refuses to be accountable for this kind of stuff. And, so, I can’t blame folks like that FBI agent (that Durbin quoted) and Amnesty International for using the harsh language they have because, otherwise, as I said, nobody seems to give a rat’s ášš.
So people understand where I came from on my mother side my granfather survived a concentration camp and made it to the US. I grew up with tales of the horrors of life in a concentration camp. There has never been any justification for torture for any reason.
Bush is now being painted as “Hitler” by many.
I agree with Jon Stewart do not demean Hitler by comparing Bush to him. Bush is doing what he thinks is right I live in this country have served in the Military and worry about our troops.
Bush choose the wrong war every General he had said that. Sadly we will now be embroiled in a costly war for years. Thank god we will not let it become a Vietnam our troops deserve every accolade and will come home to cheers.
Bill – thank you for the compliment!
Craig – sadly … I do see your point. Would this have gotten enough attention without the hyperbole? On the other hand, will the issue, rather than the remark, get any attention now?
And – yes, we’ve derailed your thread again, PAD. Hm … for a while, every danged thing seemed to be some sort of a “-gate”, didn’t it? One would expect this to grow into one, too … except somehow, more “gate”age seemed to be thrown at any question regarding the Clinton administration than the current one, for some reason …. We’ll see if this memo gains enough long-term attention in the press ….
We cannot win the fight against terrorists by being polite. We have to show the country what we are up against. If the enemy insergents and members of terrorist cells are using tactics that any person with any sense of decency would recognize as belonging to sick regimes like Nazis and Pol Pot, then WE NEED TO SAY IT. Staying silent or being polite is not going to help. You fight terrorists with the truth, not with being over-cautious.
Now doesn’t that sound more logical than Laura’s twisted sentiments!
The comments John refers to can be found at http://www.comedycentral.com/sitewide/media_player/play.jhtml?itemId=15751
I found it funny, though Durbin supporters may not. One of the advantages of thinking this sort of rhetoric stupid is that one can sneer at idiots on both sides of the fence–Durbin, Byrd and their feeble minded soul mates on the right, like Buchanan and Santorum. (as opposed to rightly condemning it when it’s those “other” guys who do it but trying to somehow find it okey dokey when right minded politicians spew it out.
More humor from Iowahawk. I expect we’ll be seeing lots of this sort of thing for a few weeks.
Customer Relations Department
United Airlines
Elk Grove Village, IL
Dear Sir or Madam:
In the dark annals of human evil, history has recorded the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocides, and Stalin’s mass starvation program. And now, United Airlines flight 671 from Reagan International to Chicago O’Hare on June 3rd, 2005. I know, because I am a survivor of that dark exemplar of man’s cruelty to man.
Perhaps I should have known what I was in for when your brusque gate agent refused to issue an upgrade to me for the flight (despite being a Premier/1K member for over 10 years), or when your flight crew Gestapo confiscated my carry on Roll Tote (even though I had nearly fit it into the overhead bin). But the true measure of the horror did not dawn on me until me and my fellow passengers were left taxiing on the O’Hare tarmack for over twenty minutes in the Auschwitzian Airbus A320 cattlecar, in temperatures approaching 85 degrees, not knowing our fates or whether we would make it to our fundraising dinners.
Santayana once said, “those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.” And I say to you and your fellow United criminals: “never again,” unless you credit my account at least 2 flight segments for this travesty.
Sincerely,
Senator Richard J. Durbin
Washington, DC
Several posters have brought up Amnesty International. I’m sorry to see an organization that has done so much good in the world risk so much by doing a Durbin. At least they have the integrety to admit it but that just makes it all the harder to defend. from the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/17/AR2005061701218.html)
No American ‘Gulag’
By Pavel Litvinov
Several days ago I received a telephone call from an old friend who is a longtime Amnesty International staffer. He asked me whether I, as a former Soviet “prisoner of conscience” adopted by Amnesty, would support the statement by Amnesty’s executive director, Irene Khan, that the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba is the “gulag of our time.”
“Don’t you think that there’s an enormous difference?” I asked him.
“Sure,” he said, “but after all, it attracts attention to the problem of Guantanamo detainees.”
…Words are important. When Amnesty spokesmen use the word “gulag” to describe U.S. human rights violations, they allow the Bush administration to dismiss justified criticism and undermine Amnesty’s credibility. Amnesty International is too valuable to let it be hijacked by politically biased leaders.
Between the conversation mentioned above and the admission by executive director of Amnesty International USA, William Schulz to Chris Wallace that the rhetoric was what got them on TV, it would seem that the organization is sacrificing long term credibility for some TV face time. A shame, really.
The republicans must be salivating at the thought of using the last week’s sound bites for 2006 election commercials. A mock impeachment hearing turns into an anti-semitic hate fest. Classic. Just classic. (if Hillary came out and trashed Conyers for this her rating would go up 10 points. The looney left would be angry but they’ll be good little boys and girls and vote for her anyway.).
Knuckles– My Dad recommends the following in Massachusettes– Mill City Brewing Co in Lowell; Boston Beer Works near Fenway; Harpoon (of course); and John Harvards Brew House.
I don’t have a real palet for wine and beer so I don’t know. I envy folks who can taste a ’61 Dom Corleone Chianti and say stuff like “She’s a saucy little wench but her impudence will surprise you.” whereas I will chime in with “Hey, this wine tastes real good.”
One question for all who oppose the use of the word ‘gulag’:
When people are arrested without a warrant, jailed without a trial, or even access to a lawyer, told they could be held indefinitely, and are tortured, what word would you use for such a place?
Correction:
“what word would you use for such a place?” should say “what word would you use for the place where these people are kept?”
This isn’t a case of pharmacies refusing to stock medicines, immoral or otherwise.
This is, right now, all about individuals who refuse to do their jobs.
And about moronic states giving pharmacists the right to give customers the finger when said customers have a legal right to get those prescriptions.
Perhaps I was confused. I was only responding to a hypothetical situation, that appeared to be completely unrelated to the topic at hand, but still made no sense to me.
If there really are Moronic states that are supporting such pharmacists (and no one in this thread has mentioned any, or linked to any news stories about them that I have seen — of course, most of the conversation has focused on torture, as it should) Then I would be curious at finding out the details.
PAD wrote: “So can I assume that you’ve actually read the report and that in your informed opinion, the torture tactics being used are NOT tactics that would have been at home in totalitarian, fascist, or downright evil regimes?”
From all accounts I’ve seen, Durbin stood up and started publicly shooting off his mouth before he had even investigated the allegation.
Were there bona fide abuses? I don’t know. I do know, however, that if there were, Durbin provided no proof. Instead, it seems he immediately went public based on an e-mail. You’d think after the recent Newsweek debacle, Durbin would know better. Perhaps, as the Chicago Tribune posited in Friday’s editorial, Durbin is seeking attention because the state’s other senator, Barack Obama, is stealing the senior senator’s thunder.
In any case, who gets smeared again without a trial? The U.S. military.
By the way, PAD, I do NOT think Durbin’s alleged abuses, even if they some or all are later found to be true, are in any way comparable to the three regimes he mentioned.
Now here is a fact: In the three years GITMO has had these prisoners, not one has died. You’d have to look real hard to find other maximum security prisons around the world with track records like that.
“Today’s Western society has revealed the inequality between the freedom for good deeds and the freedom for evil deeds. A statesman who wants to achieve something highly constructive for his country has to move cautiously and even timidly; thousands of hasty (and irresponsible) critics cling to him at all times; he is constantly rebuffed by parliament and the press. He has to prove his every step is well founded and absolutely flawless. Indeed, an outstanding, truly great person who has unusual and unexpected initiatives in mind does not get any chance to assert himself; dozens of traps will be set for him from the beginning. Thus mediocrity triumphs under the guise of democratic restraints.”
— Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Interesting words from someone who knows a real gulag when he sees it.
Meanwhile, and I caution Republicans and like monded folks not to get TOO excited about this…yet…the Downing street memos now have an element of doubt attached to them. From the AP: The eight memos — all labeled “secret” or “confidential” — were first obtained by British reporter Michael Smith, who has written about them in The Daily Telegraph and The Sunday Times.
Smith told AP he protected the identity of the source he had obtained the documents from by typing copies of them on plain paper and destroying the originals.
This probably makes them diffficult to fully authenticate and is disturbingly like what happened to the “Lucy Ramirez” letters that brought CBS so much grief.
Me, I’d still believe them if only because an out and out fraud would have had a bit more there, there. The memos seem too unexciting to be faked.
Hey, if you want to see a good amateur comic (in spanish) go to my blog! ^^
http://www.shiumansworld.tk !^^
“One question for all who oppose the use of the word ‘gulag’: When people are arrested without a warrant, jailed without a trial, or even access to a lawyer, told they could be held indefinitely, and are tortured, what word would you use for such a place?”
How about TERRORIST PRISON?
Alternate: WAR ZONE
I posted this question a day ago but it seems to have disappeared so I’ll try again.
If we’re holding these guys down in Gitmo because they’re a danger to us, and we have to hold them until the end of the war on terror….which is the argument used so far for them being there…then when the war on terror actually ends, how do we release them?
I mean, if they’re terrorists now, and presumably they’ll be terrorists then, if we release them doesn’t that mean we’ll have to fight the war on terrorism all over again?
The only solution at that point would be to just hold them until they die, or kill them, right?
Michael
If there really are Moronic states that are supporting such pharmacists (and no one in this thread has mentioned any, or linked to any news stories about them that I have seen — of course, most of the conversation has focused on torture, as it should) Then I would be curious at finding out the details.
Some states (I’d have to look for articles) have passed laws allowing pharmacists to refuse filling a prescription based on moral, etc grounds.
They are *supposed* to then pass on the prescription itself to another pharmacist, or arrange for the patient to get the prescription.
However, some pharmacists refuse to do as much (on the same moral grounds) and deserve to be fired for it.
You’d have to look real hard to find other maximum security prisons around the world with track records like that.
You’d have to also look real hard to find another maximum security prison in the US filled with prisoners who haven’t actually gone to trial.
There are words for such prisons; most of them involve things with human rights abuses, and rightfully so.
Craig wrote: “You’d have to also look real hard to find another maximum security prison in the US filled with prisoners who haven’t actually gone to trial.”
Bad analogy. You know as well as I do that legally, these alleged enemy combatants don’t fall into the same category as civilian prisoners. Now you can argue all you want about whether or not that’s fair, but these classifications and laws have been in place for a long, long time. If you don’t like the existing laws, lobby your representative in Congress to have them changed.